Nale as Odiums champion

[Unite Them]

Would Nale make a good champion for Odium?  Now that taravangian is Odium I feel like a more subtle choice would work better... Someone like Elhokar that Dalinar would have difficulty fighting on a non-combat level.  But if we were choosing from the available fighting pool Nale would certainly make a fearsome opponent.

Edited July 30, 2021 by Unite Them

[Kalak_]

That’s a pretty cool idea, but I think that it’s gavinor, because taravodium is much smarter than rayse, he isn’t picking just on brute strength like u said but if he did gavinor then dalinar would be unable to kill him, aswell as this, there is a death rattle in way of kings that says something like “I hold the knife to the child’s throat, the world wants me to cut the child but I just can’t do it”

[Master Silver]

Yeah I think that Nale is likely the best warrior Odium has. It seems pretty clear that 1v1 any herald would beat any fused. That is in part why I think the fused were s surprised that Kaladin was able to best their best Heavenly Ones. And for as good as Kaladin is Kalak made them all seem like children. Kalak average, 4/10 chance that Nale is better. But I agree, Mr. T is going to try to be smart, overly smart, so a child is likely to be the champion. 

[mbondy]

On 7/30/2021 at 4:26 PM, Master Silver said:

Yeah I think that Nale is likely the best warrior Odium has. It seems pretty clear that 1v1 any herald would beat any fused. That is in part why I think the fused were s surprised that Kaladin was able to best their best Heavenly Ones. And for as good as Kaladin is Kalak made them all seem like children. Kalak average, 4/10 chance that Nale is better. But I agree, Mr. T is going to try to be smart, overly smart, so a child is likely to be the champion. 

Think you mean Ishar and nort Kalak. Fully agree with you Mr. T is gonna be tricky

[teknopathetic]

Even though it wont happen, I want a Reshi Isle to be the champion. 

Picture it, Dalinar waiting in suspense at the top of the tower - when suddenly a giant turtle island smashes down on Urutheru and defeats Dalinar by squooshing. 

Edited August 19, 2021 by teknopathetic

[Halyo_Alex]

3 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Even though it wont happen, I want a Reshi Isle to be the champion. 

Picture it, Dalinar waiting in suspense at the top of the tower - when suddenly a giant turtle island smashes down on Urutheru and defeats Dalinar by squooshing. 

Just for sheer comedy, take my storming upvote.

[+robardin]

On 7/30/2021 at 7:23 AM, Kalak_ said:

That’s a pretty cool idea, but I think that it’s gavinor, because taravodium is much smarter than rayse, he isn’t picking just on brute strength like u said but if he did gavinor then dalinar would be unable to kill him, aswell as this, there is a death rattle in way of kings that says something like “I hold the knife to the child’s throat, the world wants me to cut the child but I just can’t do it”

But Odium has to pick someone who's already "his" to name - someone sworn to his service. He can't just send in whoever he wants. Gavinor is what, five years old? Even less? Even if you say he's filled with hate and thus "falling" to Odium, he's filled with (childish) hate for Moash and the people who killed his father: Team Odium.

Taravangian saw a way for him "to be satisified regardless of the outcome" of the Contest of Champions, which is not the same thing as selecting an undefeatable Champion.

Besides which, Dalinar being unable to kill Gavinor in a battle to the death wouldn't constitute a win for Odium anyway; Gavinor would also have to be able to kill Dalinar to end the Contest, or it'd just be a stalemate. Unless that's the "acceptable alternate outcome" that "Taravodium" foresees? Which would be interesting, but unsatisfying from a dramatic POV, even if the problem of Intent in "falling to Odium" on the part of a 4-5 year old child were overcome.

 

[Medium]

2 hours ago, robardin said:

But Odium has to pick someone who's already "his" to name - someone sworn to his service. He can't just send in whoever he wants. Gavinor is what, five years old? Even less? Even if you say he's filled with hate and thus "falling" to Odium, he's filled with (childish) hate for Moash and the people who killed his father: Team Odium.

Taravangian saw a way for him "to be satisified regardless of the outcome" of the Contest of Champions, which is not the same thing as selecting an undefeatable Champion.

Besides which, Dalinar being unable to kill Gavinor in a battle to the death wouldn't constitute a win for Odium anyway; Gavinor would also have to be able to kill Dalinar to end the Contest, or it'd just be a stalemate. Unless that's the "acceptable alternate outcome" that "Taravodium" foresees? Which would be interesting, but unsatisfying from a dramatic POV, even if the problem of Intent in "falling to Odium" on the part of a 4-5 year old child were overcome.

 

Dalinar and Odium both have to pick a champion, yes?

Taravodium has all the knowledge of the Shard, and as such, know what Rayse knew (probably)

I think a fun thing, would be for Taravodium to select Moash as his champion, and Dalinar chooses Kaladin, and then we get some super fun emotional stuff.

[+robardin]

18 hours ago, Theldragor said:

Dalinar and Odium both have to pick a champion, yes?

Taravodium has all the knowledge of the Shard, and as such, know what Rayse knew (probably)

I think a fun thing, would be for Taravodium to select Moash as his champion, and Dalinar chooses Kaladin, and then we get some super fun emotional stuff.

Spoilering my reply to this for now, pending a thread relocation (which would be pretty unfair to the OP if they'd intended it to be a "through Oathbringer context discussion only", given the username of "Unite Them"...)

[EDIT: turns out the spoiler period is over, so whew, maybe this thread even started there and got merged, I haven't paid such close attention - but I can't seem to "un-spoiler" my earlier text, LOL]

Spoiler

 

I thought the same thing in another recent post in another thread - that "Taravodium" will manipulate things so that Kaladin faces Moash, and then will withdraw his "gift" of numbness from Moash at a critical time such that Moash lays down his arms and demands that Kaladin kill him for everything he's done.

As we saw at Hearthstone, even after his casual murders of Roshone and two random (to Moash) villagers, Kaladin still feels like he failed to "protect" Moash from what he's become. That externalized vision of Renarin's that showed that it HAD been possible for Moash to have become a Windrunner, who stood taller, behind who people gathered, safe, protected, ... it hurt Kaladin almost as much as it did Moash, to see that.

Could a Windrunner kill someone like that? Unarmed, regretful, and specifically one he felt he had failed to protect? And if he did... Would it amount to breaking his Ideals and killing Syl?

In which case Kaladin, the Champion he was targeting in RoW, would very likely "fall to Odium" to become his chief pawn in the Cosmere, even if he Himself were bound to Roshar. The win-win scenario that Taravangian saw a way to reach, where either outcome of the Contest of Champions was to his satisfaction: either Moash wins the contest and he gets Dalinar, or he gains Kaladin as a "consolation prize".

Remember, we still haven't seen one "Chekhov's Gun" detail of Moash's Bridge Four history deployed yet: the fact that, alone from the original bridge squad, he got his tattoo on the upper arm and not his forehead. Which he presumably still has, unless his Stormlight use via the Honorblade has eradicated it. It's got to come into play at some point, otherwise why not just say Moash refused to get an unnecessary tattoo?

Same thing with the Bridge Four patch he removed from his shoulder, which he couldn't bring himself to throw into the fire just before Graves' little group of Diagrammers on the run got taken out by Leshwi and a few other Heavenly Ones.

Speaking of who, now that Leshwi's gone Listener and is chummy with Kaladin what with the mutual respect and all, if he asks her about Moash's role with Team Odium and he hears what he did in defending and then training Sah and Khen as a slave, it's going to make him feel even more like Moash is a "dark version" of himself.

 

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by robardin

[+mdross81]

24 minutes ago, robardin said:

Spoilering my reply to this for now, pending a thread relocation

RoW spoiler period ended earlier this week. So RoW content can now appear in this forum without needing to be tagged. Plus, I’m pretty sure this was originally posted in one of the RoW forums and has just been relocated here now that the spoiler period is over.

Also, on a more substantive note, I like your take on how a Kal-Moash contest of champions might go down and how it could end up with Odium satisfied no matter the outcome. Though, damn, your merciful Kal ending would be a bleak conclusion of Kal’s arc.

[+robardin]

29 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

RoW spoiler period ended earlier this week. So RoW content can now appear in this forum without needing to be tagged. Plus, I’m pretty sure this was originally posted in one of the RoW forums and has just been relocated here now that the spoiler period is over.

Also, on a more substantive note, I like your take on how a Kal-Moash contest of champions might go down and how it could end up with Odium satisfied no matter the outcome. Though, damn, your merciful Kal ending would be a bleak conclusion of Kal’s arc.

Oh whew, that's a relief, I'll go back and unspoiler my reply then.

And I didn't say that would be the conclusion of Kal's arc. I originally posted that thought in a discussion of what the Windrunner's Final Ideal might be. I didn't have a specific wording in mind, but I imagined him reaching it while wrestling with an Anguished Moash Scenario, whether at the Contest of Champions or not.

First Ideal = the Ideal of Radiance (shared by all Knights Radiant)

Second Ideal = I will protect others who need protection (what makes a Windrunner a Windrunner)

Third Ideal = ... even when I have issues with/about doing so (must recognize and then overcome one's personal "issues")

Fourth Ideal = ... dealing with limitations on who can be protected (The gemstone archive included an entry from a long-ago L3 Windrunner angsting about "I don't think that I can [swear the Fourth Ideal]... Am I not supposed to want to help people?")

Fifth Ideal = ... dealing with limitations on who SHOULD be protected? ... or perhaps, protecting even someone who is actively resisting being protected? But that feels just like the Second Ideal.

On the other hand, it occurred to me that T-O's sudden insight on how he could be "satisified" with either outcome of the Contest of Champions, combined with this and Odium having wanted first Dalinar and then Kaladin as a "chief pawn in the Cosmere".

Edited August 20, 2021 by robardin

[Valaraukar]

Kal vs. Moash seems an attractive idea but I feel like Moash would need his sight and some buffs. Nale would be simple but could be the choice. Gavinor could create some curveballs all around. Could Odium use another character we've missed, like another herald?

[Use the Falchion]

Nale would certainly be interesting, but I don't think it's going to happen. Nale is sworn to the Listener people, not Odium himself. So once he finds a certain group of Listeners free from Odium's influence, he's free to fight for them, and not for Odium. 

[teknopathetic]

There is a part of me that wants Venli to end up being the good guys champion maybe the humans get delayed and it ends up being a listener fighting for her world and her future. 

Edited August 26, 2021 by teknopathetic

[mathiau]

On 30/07/2021 at 4:54 AM, Unite Them said:

Would Nale make a good champion for Odium?  Now that taravangian is Odium I feel like a more subtle choice would work better... Someone like Elhokar that Dalinar would have difficulty fighting on a non-combat level.  But if we were choosing from the available fighting pool Nale would certainly make a fearsome opponent.

Well Elhokar is dead so it can't be him. In terms of combat strength the best choice is probably Nale or El (the original Vyre), if Szeth end up Dalinar's champion I do think Nale will be Vargo's one.

On 20/08/2021 at 2:35 PM, robardin said:

Spoilering my reply to this for now, pending a thread relocation (which would be pretty unfair to the OP if they'd intended it to be a "through Oathbringer context discussion only", given the username of "Unite Them"...)

[EDIT: turns out the spoiler period is over, so whew, maybe this thread even started there and got merged, I haven't paid such close attention - but I can't seem to "un-spoiler" my earlier text, LOL]

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I thought the same thing in another recent post in another thread - that "Taravodium" will manipulate things so that Kaladin faces Moash, and then will withdraw his "gift" of numbness from Moash at a critical time such that Moash lays down his arms and demands that Kaladin kill him for everything he's done.

As we saw at Hearthstone, even after his casual murders of Roshone and two random (to Moash) villagers, Kaladin still feels like he failed to "protect" Moash from what he's become. That externalized vision of Renarin's that showed that it HAD been possible for Moash to have become a Windrunner, who stood taller, behind who people gathered, safe, protected, ... it hurt Kaladin almost as much as it did Moash, to see that.

Could a Windrunner kill someone like that? Unarmed, regretful, and specifically one he felt he had failed to protect? And if he did... Would it amount to breaking his Ideals and killing Syl?

In which case Kaladin, the Champion he was targeting in RoW, would very likely "fall to Odium" to become his chief pawn in the Cosmere, even if he Himself were bound to Roshar. The win-win scenario that Taravangian saw a way to reach, where either outcome of the Contest of Champions was to his satisfaction: either Moash wins the contest and he gets Dalinar, or he gains Kaladin as a "consolation prize".

Remember, we still haven't seen one "Chekhov's Gun" detail of Moash's Bridge Four history deployed yet: the fact that, alone from the original bridge squad, he got his tattoo on the upper arm and not his forehead. Which he presumably still has, unless his Stormlight use via the Honorblade has eradicated it. It's got to come into play at some point, otherwise why not just say Moash refused to get an unnecessary tattoo?

Same thing with the Bridge Four patch he removed from his shoulder, which he couldn't bring himself to throw into the fire just before Graves' little group of Diagrammers on the run got taken out by Leshwi and a few other Heavenly Ones.

Speaking of who, now that Leshwi's gone Listener and is chummy with Kaladin what with the mutual respect and all, if he asks her about Moash's role with Team Odium and he hears what he did in defending and then training Sah and Khen as a slave, it's going to make him feel even more like Moash is a "dark version" of himself.

 

If Kal was Dalinar's champion it's very likely what would happen, but Kal won't be Dalinar's champion

6 hours ago, Valaraukar said:

Kal vs. Moash seems an attractive idea but I feel like Moash would need his sight and some buffs. Nale would be simple but could be the choice. Gavinor could create some curveballs all around. Could Odium use another character we've missed, like another herald?

Galivar. You get all the best thing you'd get from having Gavinor as a champion and it actually makes some sense. Also

Quote

"I'm standing over the body of a brother. I'm weeping. Is that his blood or mine? What have we done?"

—Collected on Vevanev 1173, 107 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was an out-of-work Veden sailor

Or Ishar for the TFE parallels

[+robardin]

8 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

There is a part of me that wants Venli to end up being the good guys champion maybe the humans get delayed and it ends up being a listener fighting for her world and her future. 

Oh, the irony of a Venli vs. Moash contest. A listener for Honor and a human for Odium!

Or instead of Venli... Leshwi!

5 hours ago, mathiau said:

If Kal was Dalinar's champion it's very likely what would happen, but Kal won't be Dalinar's champion

Who knows what will happen in SA5 to lead up to the contest. Dalinar "intends" to be his own champion. I bet that doesn't actually happen.

Well, maybe not "bet that doesn't happen" - but I would actually be more surprised if it did happen, than if something else happened.

FWIW I also don't think the contest will end up being Kal v. Moash, even if that is what Taravodium is going to try to engineer - knowing Brandon, it's going to be none of the "obvious" configurations. Or if it is, it'll have a as-yet-not-obvious twist to it.

For example: maybe Dalinar sends Shallan in for Team Honor against Moash, but with a Lightweaving to make her look and sound like Kaladin. Then, at the very moment Taravodium plays his emotional trump card to paralyze Kaladin, withdrawing his voiding of Moash's conscience and causing him to drop the Honorblade to mist while begging "Kaladin" to save him from his pain, ripping his sleeve to show his Bridge Four tattoo...

...Shallan blinks, drops her disguise, and runs Moash through with two Shardblades, saying, "I believe you once told Kaladin, this is a mercy. Well, is it?"

However, there is no doubt in my mind that Moash having a Bridge Four tattoo on his upper arm, and having retained his B4 badge, will come into play between him and Kaladin before his arc is done. As well as what we see of Moash's inner dialogue when Odium's influence is withdrawn or pushed away, and what that would do to Kaladin to witness, if he ever did so.

Edited August 26, 2021 by robardin

[Frustration]

11 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

Nale is sworn to the Listener people, not Odium himself.

Um, if you read his speach to Szeth in OB he seems pretty on board with Odium, not the singers in particular

[LewsTherinTelescope]

13 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

Nale would certainly be interesting, but I don't think it's going to happen. Nale is sworn to the Listener people, not Odium himself. So once he finds a certain group of Listeners free from Odium's influence, he's free to fight for them, and not for Odium. 

His logic was a.) the Dawnsingers were there before they got conquered and b.) Odium killed Honor and won by right of conquest (yes, those two contradict each other, no, I don't know why Szeth claims "Nin's logic was sound"). Both of those would probably lead to him still siding with Odium, because the Fused are the Dawnsingers and most of them are with Odium, while the listeners are (from that perspective) just runaway rebels.

[Use the Falchion]

2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I don't know why Szeth claims "Nin's logic was sound").

Szeth isn't exactly the sterling definition of sanity, so sound logic to him isn't sound by any measures.

 

2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Both of those would probably lead to him still siding with Odium, because the Fused are the Dawnsingers and most of them are with Odium, while the listeners are (from that perspective) just runaway rebels.

 

 

Quote

“All along,” Szeth said, “this world belonged to the parshmen. My people watched not for the return of an invading enemy, but for the masters of the house.”

“Yes,” Nin said.

“And you sought to stop them.”

“I knew what must happen if they returned.” Nin turned toward him. “Who has jurisdiction over this land, Szeth-son-Neturo? A man can rule his home until the citylord demands his taxes. The citylord controls his lands until the highlord, in turn, comes to him for payment. But the highlord must answer to the highprince, when war is called in his lands. And the king? He … must answer to God.”

“You said God was dead.”

“A god is dead. Another won the war by right of conquest. The original masters of this land have returned, as you so aptly made metaphor, with the keys to the house. So tell me, Szeth-son-Neturo—he who is about to swear the Third Ideal—whose law should the Skybreakers follow? That of humans, or that of the real owners of this land?”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1104). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

The focus of the speech has two allusions to Odium, yes, but the focus of it is on the Singers in the form of Szeth's metaphor. Nale's mention of the god is more of in-passing. He's updating Szeth on the scope of the situation, but he's not focusing on it. It's like when Odium corrects Dalinar about how many Shards there are/were - it's important information but it's not the focus of the argument. To me the above has always read as Odium may have won the war, but the Singers are still the ones Nale follows, because they're the ones who were invaded. Singers aka the original owners side with Odium, ergo Nale sides with Odium (who also has the right to rule with the Singers as he is the god by conquest). If Singers by form of the Listeners don't side with Odium, then Nale doesn't have to side with him either. At that point, it's his choice. 

Nale's appearance in RoW doesn't confirm or deny this, as his only real line about his loyalty is interrupted by Cord. 

Quote

"Bondsmith," Nale said, "your war is unjust. You must submit to the laws of the-"

An arrow slammed into his face, dead center, interrupting him. 

Chapter 47, "A Cage of Spirits" 

In the above quote, Nale could have easily been trying to say "you must submit to the laws of the one true/living/victorious god, Odium" as easily as he was trying to say "you must submit to the laws of the rightful owners of this land/world, the Singers." 

I'm personally a fan of the latter interpretation, as not only does it fit into Navani and Rebonial's struggle thematically, it also ties in very well with Nale's previous conversation with Szeth. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

15 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

If Singers by form of the Listeners don't side with Odium, then Nale doesn't have to side with him either. At that point, it's his choice. 

Except he clearly doesn't consider the listeners to have this authority, as he sided with the Fused when they returned but never really cared about the listeners or the parshmen in that regard. He considers the Dawnsingers, aka the Fused, to be the rightful rulers still. And with the exception of a few rebels, they side with Odium still, so I think both trains of logic will lead to him staying with Odium and the main body of Fused.

[Use the Falchion]

1 minute ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

He considers the Dawnsingers, aka the Fused, to be the rightful rulers still.

And Leshwi and her group challenge that, because they broke free. 

 

1 minute ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

And with the exception of a few rebels, they side with Odium still, so I think both trains of logic will lead to him staying with Odium and the main body of Fused.

Or they're the truest heirs, as they're not following the ways of the human-brought god. The point is that now Nale has a choice - he can side with the rebels, or he can side with Odium's forces. You believe one thing, I think another. 

 

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:

And Leshwi and her group challenge that, because they broke free. 

Sure, but generally people rebelling against a government are not considered to be representatives of said government.

[Halyo_Alex]

15 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Sure, but generally people rebelling against a government are not considered to be representatives of said government.

Okay, fair enough, but I'm not certain if that's entirely an obstacle to the idea. It would depend on Nale's exact wording/intent of his Oath, but if he really did swear loyalty to "the Dawnsingers," and not just "the leader of the Dawnsingers,"  then fighting on the same side as Leshwi would be just as valid. Right? Her separate group still wants to live on Roshar, that goal hasn't changed, it's just that they're no longer choosing to follow Odium to achieve that goal. Unless I've mist (...gonna leave that typo there) something critical?

[thejopen27]

I'm strongly in favor of the Gavilar as Odium's champion as a Fused/Cognitive Shadow. It would fit in SO well to Dalinar's arc and it would make all five Gavilar prologues have so much more relavance to the story. Everything in the first four books stems from this man, this cruel, manipulative, arrogant, vain, prideful man, the things he began with his plotting to unite humanity against an enemy he would create, and the tragic results of his assassination. 

Gavilar's life and death have been the inciting incident of everything that has happened in Stormlight up to this point. He would make the most sense as the champion of Odium, to duel Dalinar at the end of the first half of Stormlight.