[Theory] Taln Wasn't the Herald Who Broke; It Was Chanarach

[trav]

I don't like this theory since it would mean that Shallan is relevant and I would have to read and pay attention to the chapters of the cosmeres worst character.

Unfortunately the theory is solid. This sucks.

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

14 hours ago, Being of Cacophony said:

does anyone remember if her hair color changes while they're in shadesmar? I don't remember, but I want to say it does...

I'm about 90% sure that it doesn't. She had to keep stating when she was Radiant or Veil because they couldn't afford to waste Stormlight while in Shadesmar.

[Immortal Platypus]

45 minutes ago, trav said:

I don't like this theory since it would mean that Shallan is relevant and I would have to read and pay attention to the chapters of the cosmeres worst character.

Unfortunately the theory is solid. This sucks.

just think of it as another thing to blame Shallan for.

8 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

I'm about 90% sure that it doesn't. She had to keep stating when she was Radiant or Veil because they couldn't afford to waste Stormlight while in Shadesmar.

ok. I feel like they know who she is sometimes without her stating it. I could definitely be wrong though

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

55 minutes ago, Being of Cacophony said:

just think of it as another thing to blame Shallan for.

ok. I feel like they know who she is sometimes without her stating it. I could definitely be wrong though

Welp..Now I have to reread a good chunk of RoW because this is just the sort of detail that Brandon would slip into a single encounter.

[Immortal Platypus]

2 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Welp..Now I have to reread a good chunk of RoW because this is just the sort of detail that Brandon would slip into a single encounter.

yeah, same. *sigh*

[teknopathetic he/him]

On 2023-09-26 at 6:15 AM, trav said:

I don't like this theory since it would mean that Shallan is relevant and I would have to read and pay attention to the chapters of the cosmeres worst character.

Unfortunately the theory is solid. This sucks.

Shallan is my favourite character actually. Right at the start going through her chapters and delving into all the mysteries was incredibly fascinating to me. Her chapters are my favourite in TWoK because you get to delve deep into the world and the eldritch mystery of the lore. Also, I have a big heart-on for anyone that tried to cheer up others even when their own experiences could be absolutely crushing. I find that to be quite a strength of character.  My Shallan love goes deep. I read her as if she should be believed, and that's how I found all these hints about Shallan and her mother.
---
Side note for Shallan fans (or people who want to see why people like Shallan)
I am really digging the Lost in Rosier re-read podcast  since both of the hosts love Shallan as well and it is great to see people dig into what makes Shallan a compelling and sympathetic read.

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by teknopathetic

[Hatman he/him]

On 2/2/2021 at 2:14 PM, teknopathetic said:

Lin Devar takes something and locks it away in the safe. We are told this is the Shardblade and Shallan's mother's soul.

I have not read the whole thread, but I saw this and thought "maybe it is a Shardblade and it is Shallan's mother's soul. Maybe Shallan has bonded to a third blade, but this blade, rather than a cryptic, is one of the heralds." 

[Hatman he/him]

On 2/7/2021 at 12:19 PM, basement_boi said:

Honorblades don’t affect eye color. And either way, light eyes eye color doesn’t change when they summon blades.

In one of Szeth's early interludes we are led to believe that they do.

Edited July 24, 2024 by Hatman

[teknopathetic he/him]

1 hour ago, Hatman said:

I have not read the whole thread, but I saw this and thought "maybe it is a Shardblade and it is Shallan's mother's soul. Maybe Shallan has bonded to a third blade, but this blade, rather than a cryptic, is one of the heralds." 

Had the same thought too! If Shallan actually had 3 blades, that would be truly amazing! The whole "which blade does Kaladin use in the chasm" would have a very novel new solution since honourblades dont scream and Syl wouldn't be there to detect something was different. 

 

I was also wondering if Shallan opening the safe let the last bit of Chana's soul get to Braize. One weird part of this timeline is why did it take so long for Chana to be caught/break/whatever after Shallan killed Chana. But if Chana's return was delayed until the Shallan-Ward plot began, then the timeline is much tighter and makes more sense. 

Edited July 24, 2024 by teknopathetic

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Hatman said:

I have not read the whole thread, but I saw this and thought "maybe it is a Shardblade and it is Shallan's mother's soul. Maybe Shallan has bonded to a third blade, but this blade, rather than a cryptic, is one of the heralds." 

20 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Had the same thought too! If Shallan actually had 3 blades, that would be truly amazing! The whole "which blade does Kaladin use in the chasm" would have a very novel new solution since honourblades dont scream and Syl wouldn't be there to detect something was different. 

The problem with this is that Szeth confirmed that Shins have 8 blades and only Nale and Taln's blades are missing. He knows this because he trained with every Surge, he had access to blades. There would be a very short window of opportunity for someone to steal a Honorblade between the time Szeth was named Truthless and Shallan's mother was killed. Moreover, per Szeth's words, Shins were unwilling to return Honorblades to Heralds, so it would have to be taken by force - and Surges would be needed for that. 

OB ch 106:

Quote

He stopped at the top of the steps and looked down at his hand, where a glistening Shardblade appeared. One of the two missing Honorblades. Szeth’s people had care of eight. Once, long ago, it had been nine. Then this one had vanished

OB ch 120:

Quote

Szeth of the Skybreakers had, fortunately, trained with all ten Surges.

RoW ch 111:

Quote

“My people,” Szeth shouted, “were not going to return your weapons to you. We kept your secrets, but you lie if you say my father gave you that Blade!”

 

1 hour ago, Hatman said:

In one of Szeth's early interludes we are led to believe that they do.

That's true, but lighteyes eye color is affected by blades - both Honorblades and living Shardblade change the color to pale, almost glowing one, lighter than that of any lighteye. People who just hold an Honorblade would be recognizable by their eyes. WoK I-3:

Quote

The moment he summoned his Blade, his eyes would turn from dark green to pale—almost glowing— sapphire, a unique effect of his particular weapon.

OB ch 64:

Quote

"Airsick lowlanders,” Rock the Horneater said, shoving forward and taking the weapon. “Your soup is cold. That is idiom for ‘You are all stupid.’ ” The Horneater hefted it, curious, and his eyes bled to a glassy blue.

WoR ch 87:

Quote

“Not to mention those eyes of yours,” Teft said with a grunt.
“Eyes?” Kaladin said.
“Haven’t you seen?” Teft said. “What am I saying? Ain’t no mirrors out on the Plains. Your eyes, son. Pale blue, like glassy water. Lighter than that of any king.”

Please try to avoid double posting as it's against the site's policy. You can just edit your previous post (click the three dots at the top right corner of your post, then "edit"), or use the multi quote tool (the "+" button at the bottom of each post and once used it a window with option to "quote all" will appear in the bottom right corner of your screen).

[teknopathetic he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

The problem with this is that Szeth confirmed that Shins have 8 blades and only Nale and Taln's blades are missing. He knows this because he trained with every Surge, he had access to blades. There would be a very short window of opportunity for someone to steal a Honorblade between the time Szeth was named Truthless and Shallan's mother was killed. Moreover, per Szeth's words, Shins were unwilling to return Honorblades to Heralds, so it would have to be taken by force - and Surges would be needed for that. 

 

In the year that Shallan kills her mother, Szeth is assassinating Gavilar. So there should be no way for Szeth to know if any more blades have vanished. And though not confimed, it is verly likely Chana died the exact same night as Gavilar, making it even more impossible for Szeth to have learned that a Shardblade had been recalled by Chana. 

And adding to this, Szeth didn't know that a certain Ishar had gone back to reclaim a blade either. So with the relative disarray of the Shin homeland and Szeth not knowing his father had been killed before a blade was stolen, here isnt much reason to think Szeth would know anything here regarding Chana's blade. 

As for the blade changing a person's eyes, in Oathbringer Kal confirms at one point that eye colour reverts if a blade hasn't been used in a while. Seeing as Shallan has probably barely ever used, or maybe never used the actual powers of the honourblade, Shallan's eyes should not have changed in colour. Add to this the weirdness of Shallan possibly having two other bonds while potentially having Vivenna-like cognitive shadow child boons on account of being half-congitive shadow in parentage, who the hell knows haha. But even without that, I dont think Shallan has used the blade enough to have her eye colour change. 

Edited July 24, 2024 by teknopathetic

[Isilel]

11 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

But even without that, I dont think Shallan has used the blade enough to have her eye colour change. 

 

My understanding is that lighteyes don't undergo permanent eye-color changes, either from the dead blades or from living ones/ surge-binding. 

In fact, we don't know that honorblades cause one at all. Szeth had his for years and used it, but his normal eye-color remained _dark_ green. I.e. he looked dark-eyed unless he summoned the sword or inhaled stormlight.

Ditto the dark-eyed Heralds, of course, but judging by Nale, they don't get affected by spren-bonds or even temporarily by active surge-binding either. IIRC, not even by summoning a spren/honorblade.

Edited July 25, 2024 by Isilel

[alder24]

15 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I was also wondering if Shallan opening the safe let the last bit of Chana's soul get to Braize. One weird part of this timeline is why did it take so long for Chana to be caught/break/whatever after Shallan killed Chana. But if Chana's return was delayed until the Shallan-Ward plot began, then the timeline is much tighter and makes more sense. 

Possible. But we also know that Heralds were hiding on Braize for some time, before their torture starts. By this time most, if not all Fused were slumbering and it seems that all of this caught them off guard. Nobody expected another Herald to suddenly appear on Braize, which allowed Chana to hide on Braize for much longer, because either nobody was searching for her, or there were too few souls searching for her.

However, was it said that the safe was opened by Shallan or her brothers? Wouldn't the time of the Jah Keved civil war correspond with the return of Taln? Wouldn't it be possible for the safe to remain unopened until one of the many armies conquered their house, possibly burning or pillaging it, thus releasing Chana's soul from the safe shortly before Taln's return?

13 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

In the year that Shallan kills her mother, Szeth is assassinating Gavilar. So there should be no way for Szeth to know if any more blades have vanished. And though not confimed, it is verly likely Chana died the exact same night as Gavilar, making it even more impossible for Szeth to have learned that a Shardblade had been recalled by Chana. 

Yes, I did try to explain that there is still a chance for someone to steal a Honorblade and Szeth wouldn't have known about this, because he was out there killing people. Szeth would have a hard time to know what was happening in Shinovar afterall. But that's a short time frame - only around a year as he was banished in 1166 and in the next year, in 1167, he killed Gavilar (and Chana died). And that someone needs to steal the blade, just revealing themselves as Heralds won't work. 

13 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

And adding to this, Szeth didn't know that a certain Ishar had gone back to reclaim a blade either. So with the relative disarray of the Shin homeland and Szeth not knowing his father had been killed before a blade was stolen, here isnt much reason to think Szeth would know anything here regarding Chana's blade. 

Ishar did it under vastly different circumstances. He did it somewhere after OB, when Unmades were already in control of Shinovar and he killed Neturo, the previous holder of his Honorblade. 

13 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

As for the blade changing a person's eyes, in Oathbringer Kal confirms at one point that eye colour reverts if a blade hasn't been used in a while. Seeing as Shallan has probably barely ever used, or maybe never used the actual powers of the honourblade, Shallan's eyes should not have changed in colour. Add to this the weirdness of Shallan possibly having two other bonds while potentially having Vivenna-like cognitive shadow child boons on account of being half-congitive shadow in parentage, who the hell knows haha. But even without that, I dont think Shallan has used the blade enough to have her eye colour change. 

Oh, that was just me providing quotes, I wasn't making any point there. Shallan is an unreliable narrator, we can't count on her noticing that Kaladin's eye changed the moment she gave him her Honorblade (assuming that was it), she would have deceived herself about her own eye color and she might have been even able to subconsciously hide them under an illusion if needed (after all, in RoW she said she remembered using her Surges before bonding Pattern).

 

2 hours ago, Isilel said:

Ditto the dark-eyed Heralds, of course, but judging by Nale, they don't get affected by spren-bonds or even temporarily by active surge-binding either. IIRC, not even by summoning a spren/honorblade.

I suspect that's because Heralds are Cognitive Shadows, their self-perception might be enough to overwrite that aspect of Shardblades and keep their eyes the same.

[Sanga]

I like this a lot. I think the concept is solid, with a little big leaps on details here and there. But the basic premise makes sense.

Here are my two-cents: I believe Davar family was suffering as an after effect of Chanarach being tortured (because of the bond with her family), or as a manner of torturing her (“look at what I’m doing to your family!”)

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

3 hours ago, Sanga said:

Here are my two-cents: I believe Davar family was suffering as an after effect of Chanarach being tortured (because of the bond with her family), or as a manner of torturing her (“look at what I’m doing to your family!”)

Or maybe Herald madness is in the blood.