[Theory] Taln Wasn't the Herald Who Broke; It Was Chanarach

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, mathiau said:

(bold and spaces added by me)

If there already had been a Truthless he would not have said it like that

only if he knew about said truthless, if Taravangian manipulated Szeth into being mad truthless, he would have secured his service sooner, why waste all that energy only to have that effort wasted by letting him roam free?

Edited February 27, 2021 by Frustration

[mathiau he/him]

Just now, Frustration said:

only if he knew about said truthless, if Taravangian manipulated Szeth into being mad truthless, he would have secured his service sooner, why waste all that energy only to have that effort wasted by letting him roam free?

G-Taravangian knows far too much things no one should know (like the existence of Parshendi or where Honourblades are) not to know that, for now the only things he missed where Renarin, Nightblood and Hoid, kind of.

Anyway that doesn't really matter, Chana's blade wouldn't have gone back to Braize with her.

[Frustration he/him]

5 minutes ago, mathiau said:

G-Taravangian knows far too much things no one should know (like the existence of Parshendi or where Honourblades are) not to know that, for now the only things he missed where Renarin, Nightblood and Hoid, kind of.

He missed Dalinar not falling, the number of factions in the Veden civil War, etc. And on top of that the Shin are incredibly exclusive, and while Taravangian is likely the most knowledgeable Easterner about them, he doesn't know everything.

8 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Anyway that doesn't really matter, Chana's blade wouldn't have gone back to Braize with her.

Would it? She wasn't bonded to it at the time, and the Oathpact is broken.

[mathiau he/him]

Just now, Frustration said:

He missed Dalinar not falling, the number of factions in the Veden civil War, etc. And on top of that the Shin are incredibly exclusive, and while Taravangian is likely the most knowledgeable Easterner about them, he doesn't know everything.

He missed things about the future, nothing about the present.

Quote

Would it? She wasn't bonded to it at the time, and the Oathpact is broken.

Which is exactly my point

(Technically the Oathpact was probably less broken at that time than it is now, but she was definitely not bounded)

[Frustration he/him]

2 minutes ago, mathiau said:

He missed things about the future, nothing about the present.

that's debateable, but I'll let you have that

3 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Which is exactly my point

(Technically the Oathpact was probably less broken at that time than it is now, but she was definitely not bounded)

Oh, sorry I misread.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

Szeth cannot have been Truthless before Taravangian's genius day which is very unlikely to have happened before the serious signs of the True Desolation which in or theory just means Chana's death

It seems likely Taravangian didn't even go to the Nightwatcher until after Gavilar's death. WoR I-14:

Quote

It had worked. Just as the Diagram instructed, Taravangian was king of Jah Keved. He had taken the first major step toward unifying the world, as Gavilar had insisted would need to happen if they were to survive.

That was, at least, what the visions had proclaimed. Visions Gavilar had confided in him six years ago, the night of the Alethi king’s death. Gavilar had seen visions of the Almighty, who was also now dead, and of a coming storm.

Unite them.

“I am doing my best, Gavilar,” Taravangian whispered. “I am sorry that I need to kill your brother.”

Combined with

Quote

“Did ever I tell you, Adro, what I asked for?” he whispered as he read.

“Yes.”

He was barely listening. “Capacity,” he whispered, turning a page. “Capacity to stop what was coming. The capacity to save humankind.”

 

[Wyndle88 he/him]

Can the Heralds even have kids. Ash was born before being made into a herald, so she doesn't count. I mean at Row end didn't Kelek confirm that Heralds are highly invested Cognitive Shadows and not actually human?

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, Wyndle88 said:

Can the Heralds even have kids. Ash was born before being made into a herald, so she doesn't count. I mean at Row end didn't Kelek confirm that Heralds are highly invested Cognitive Shadows and not actually human?

They can, but it takes extra steps

[LewsTherinTelescope]

30 minutes ago, Wyndle88 said:

Can the Heralds even have kids. Ash was born before being made into a herald, so she doesn't count. I mean at Row end didn't Kelek confirm that Heralds are highly invested Cognitive Shadows and not actually human?

 

Quote

Racedogg2

Are Heralds are capable of procreation?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Not necessarily saying in the traditional way, but yes, Heralds are capable of procreation.

YouTube Livestream 23 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

[+mdross81 he/him]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

They can, but it takes extra steps

I wonder if Shallan maybe describes part of the method of Heralds procreating back in WoK:

Quote

When she drew, she didn’t feel as if she worked with only charcoal and paper. In drawing a portrait, her medium was the soul itself. There were plants from which one could remove a tiny cutting – a leaf, or a bit of stem – then plant it and grow a duplicate. When she collected a Memory of a person, she was snipping free a bud of their soul, and she cultivated and grew it on the page. Charcoal for sinew, paper for bone, ink for blood, the paper’s texture for skin. She fell into a rhythm, a cadence, the scratching of her pencil like the sound of breathing from those she depicted.

The use of the word "cultivated" here is rather suspicious, no? Maybe with Cultivation's help a Herald could snip free a portion of their soul to create offspring?

[coolsnow7]

I think this theory might actually be right 

[KandraAllomancer he/him]

I think the fact that it was Taln who broke is supported well enough by a Death Rattle, but I'm not gonna lie - the theory has huge appeal for me. "I've killed a Herald" seems like a natural progression for her Truths

[Gyirin]

Cool theory. Maybe Shallan's future goal would be finding and restoring her mom.

[teknopathetic he/him]

18 hours ago, KandraAllomancer said:

I think the fact that it was Taln who broke is supported well enough by a Death Rattle, but I'm not gonna lie - the theory has huge appeal for me. "I've killed a Herald" seems like a natural progression for her Truths

The only Taln death rattle on the copper mind is "The burdens of nine become mine. Why must I carry the madness of them all? Oh, Almighty, release me", which doesn't seem too time-sensitive imo. My apologies if there is a death rattle I am not seeing (they aren't all on the coppermind it seems). 

As well, Deathrattles can be inaccurate somewhat. Such as the one about Shallan and Khaladin coming out of the chasm, but it says "Two men" likely being because Shallan and Khal looked like grubby men when they emerged.  

Edited March 2, 2021 by teknopathetic

[Chiberty]

I did a quick search of this thread, and didn't see this WoB, but it certainly gives more fuel to this theory.

Quote

Lightflame

When Shallan is appealing Jasnah, Jasnah reveals that she has heard about Shallan's step-mother, Malise Gevelmar. Has Malise Gevelmar ever met Jasnah or one of her associates (excluding Shallan)?

Brandon Sanderson

No, she has not. You'll learn more about Malise in [Words of Radiance]. She really is just a rural lighteyes of not much consequence. Shallan's mother, however...

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012)

 

[KandraAllomancer he/him]

On 2.03.2021 at 8:21 PM, teknopathetic said:

The only Taln death rattle on the copper mind is "The burdens of nine become mine. Why must I carry the madness of them all? Oh, Almighty, release me", which doesn't seem too time-sensitive imo. My apologies if there is a death rattle I am not seeing (they aren't all on the coppermind it seems). 

Yeah, that's the one I was thinking of

On 2.03.2021 at 8:21 PM, teknopathetic said:

As well, Deathrattles can be inaccurate somewhat. Such as the one about Shallan and Khaladin coming out of the chasm, but it says "Two men" likely being because Shallan and Khal looked like grubby men when they emerged.  

"Men" can be gender-neutral, technically (e.g. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal")

[Jofwu he/him]

I'm skeptical of the theory for a few reasons... The short version is that we have a simple answer that makes sense, so I'm going to be skeptical of a more convoluted explanation without compelling evidence.

Taln claims that he failed in the TWoK epilogue. Stormfather says he broke in the OB Aharietiam infodump. Taln acts super broken. You get the idea. All of these could be mistaken, sure. Or they could just be the simple answer that we have no reason to question.

Ulim claims in RoW 73 that "the humans found some way to pin the whole Oathpact on him," and Leshwi says the same thing in RoW 14: "They somehow found a way to shift the Oathpact to depend on a single member." And I think we know that it had to have been modified in some way. We were told that if the Heralds did not all return to Braize then a Desolation would start again, right? They ALL needed to be there to seal the path to Roshar. This suggests to me that Ishar did something so that Taln would be the only one that mattered. And if he did that, I think it casts a bit of doubt on the idea that another Herald being sent to Braize would change that.

I'm also a bit skeptical that the Heralds can die and be sent to Braize? I'm not entirely confident in this because I'm not really sure WHAT would happen if they died.... If they could die in the past, in their prime, I suppose they are certainly able to die NOW. But their confidence is really weird to me... I'm particularly thinking of how little fear Jezrien had when Moash stabbed him, at first. The man had ZERO fear of dying. Could a Shardblade even kill a Herald so easily as Shallan killed her mom? And are we sure they would still get sent to Braize if they did die? The assumption that they could be killed by a Shardblade and that this would send them to Braize is super reasonable... But it does strike me as an assumption, I guess.

On 2/27/2021 at 2:53 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

It seems likely Taravangian didn't even go to the Nightwatcher until after Gavilar's death. WoR I-14:

And most significant to me is that when Dalinar visited her, she claimed that it was the first time she made a personal appearance in centuries. I feel like that's pretty concrete evidence that Dalinar was there first. (and of course he went after Gavilar died)

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, Jofwu said:

Taln claims that he failed in the TWoK epilogue. Stormfather says he broke in the OB Aharietiam infodump. Taln acts super broken. You get the idea. All of these could be mistaken, sure. Or they could just be the simple answer that we have no reason to question.

The Everstorm might remove the need for a Herald to break at all, if it turns out Taln did in fact not break.

1 hour ago, Jofwu said:

I'm also a bit skeptical that the Heralds can die and be sent to Braize? I'm not entirely confident in this because I'm not really sure WHAT would happen if they died.... If they could die in the past, in their prime, I suppose they are certainly able to die NOW.

Honestly, I'm still not even sure whether they get sent to Braize immediately back then either. The fact that the Desolations would go on decades, with the Fused resurrecting and stuff, makes me wonder if it's truly automatic, or if the Heralds have to choose to go back to Braize after they die to lock the Fused back in. (Dying does seem to be a key part of the process for whatever reason, though.)

1 hour ago, Jofwu said:

They ALL needed to be there to seal the path to Roshar. This suggests to me that Ishar did something so that Taln would be the only one that mattered. And if he did that, I think it casts a bit of doubt on the idea that another Herald being sent to Braize would change that.

Very good point.

Edited March 4, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[Andy92]

That was part of my biggest question too, as much as I like the theory in general. When Shallan’s mother died, there was still a body there. I’m not sure if we know the exact mechanics of what used to happen to a Herald’s body immediately after death during desolations. Did their bodies disappear upon death? 

We know Heralds have to be able to “die” because that’s how they got sent back to Braize during desolations. But who knows how that whole mechanic has worked ever since the other 9 abandoned their Honorblades and walked away. 

[mathiau he/him]

4 hours ago, Jofwu said:

And most significant to me is that when Dalinar visited her, she claimed that it was the first time she made a personal appearance in centuries. I feel like that's pretty concrete evidence that Dalinar was there first. (and of course he went after Gavilar died)

I had completely forgotten about that, there's indeed no reason for Cultivation to lie on that one

4 hours ago, Jofwu said:

I'm skeptical of the theory for a few reasons... The short version is that we have a simple answer that makes sense, so I'm going to be skeptical of a more convoluted explanation without compelling evidence.

The simple answer doesn't explain why Taln (and Hoid) thinks he's late

Quote

I'm also a bit skeptical that the Heralds can die and be sent to Braize? I'm not entirely confident in this because I'm not really sure WHAT would happen if they died.... If they could die in the past, in their prime, I suppose they are certainly able to die NOW. But their confidence is really weird to me... I'm particularly thinking of how little fear Jezrien had when Moash stabbed him, at first. The man had ZERO fear of dying. Could a Shardblade even kill a Herald so easily as Shallan killed her mom? And are we sure they would still get sent to Braize if they did die? The assumption that they could be killed by a Shardblade and that this would send them to Braize is super reasonable... But it does strike me as an assumption, I guess.

Shardblades kills Fused and Fused don't fear death

[Could Be Fire]

On 2/2/2021 at 1:14 PM, KSub said:

Taln isn't insane? There's definitely more to the heralds madness than being tortured. As far as we can tell they were fine at the last desolation... err previous desolation. And Taln is the only one who has been on Braize since then. At least most of the others have not. It could be BAM, I don't have a better alternative. Although i don't think we have any evidence as to how that's possible.

Yeah, Kalak talks about how he's losing it and is showing signs of crippling anxiety in the prologue and that's before BAM's imprisonment. She needs to be around for the False Desolation after the Oathpact is broken. 

I can see it making it worse? Or maybe Kalak's prologue issues are the 'normal' mental health problems he's having after millennia of torture and the more 'curse '/magical side we see with the Herald's in the present is a result of what happened to BAM?

[Bejarden he/him]

Here’s an interesting Death Rattle  

“The burden of nine become nine. Why must I carry the madness of them all?”

Maybe Chanarach was holding back most of the madness of the heralds until she broke

[Jofwu he/him]

10 hours ago, mathiau said:

The simple answer doesn't explain why Taln (and Hoid) thinks he's late

I  guess I should have said that I disagree that there's any "weird questions" like this, as the OP calls them. It doesn't seem weird to me that Taln broke, that Shallan's mom could have happened to be associated with secret organizations, etc. etc. I don't see why Taln not breaking has anything to do with him feeling late? He's never broken before, so how does him not breaking this time explain lateness? I don't follow the logic there. I've always interpreted the "too late" thing as just... the world is screwed in a different way this time and there's nothing he can do about it.

Oh! I guess maybe you're arguing the Everstorm thing? Like he didn't realize the Oathpact would be circumvented until it was too late? Maybe... Feels weird to me because it's not like he could do something about it regardless. If he returned to prevent the Everstorm then... the gates are open the normal way. And I'm just generally skeptical that the Everstorm circumvents the Oathpact. Not impossible though.

Regardless, my issue with the original theory is more with the whole "Chana is Shallan's mom and the Desolation is due to her" thing.

10 hours ago, mathiau said:

Shardblades kills Fused and Fused don't fear death

Right. Because they get to come back and there aren't any consequences. If Heralds get sent to Damnation, and risk restarting the cycle of Desolations, when they die... I think they would be a heck of a lot more careful. Granted, you could always argue that "they're insane and not being as careful as they should be."

[LewsTherinTelescope]

47 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

Maybe... Feels weird to me because it's not like he could do something about it regardless. If he returned to prevent the Everstorm then... the gates are open the normal way.

I think the interpretation with that theory (at least when I've considered it) has generally been "ah crap they all left anyway, I'm too late to warn people to prepare like I'm trying to do"? You're the timeline guy, so I'll defer to you if I'm wrong, but I thought the Fused and Voidspren had been in Shadesmar since before our current understanding of when Taln returned? (Admittedly, we don't have a very hard date for that.) I forget, do the Heralds ordinarily return prior to the Fused or simultaneously?

50 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

And I'm just generally skeptical that the Everstorm circumvents the Oathpact. Not impossible though.

It's kinda odd. It apparently doesn't fully circumvent the Oathpact, but Odium believes the Oathpact as it is won't work to hold the Fused back from rebirth (this may be due to Jezrien's death or due to the final member breaking for the first time, however, so it's not solid evidence the storm would have worked prior) (RoW 112):

Quote

“I said I cannot agree,” Odium said. “The Everstorm has changed everything, and Cephandrius should have realized this. Singers can adopt Regal forms powered by the Everstorm. The Fused are free now; they can be reborn without my intervention. The Oathpact could have imprisoned them, but it is now defunct. I am literally unable to do as you ask, not without destroying myself in the process.”

More importantly, Pattern says that the spren started bonding again because a backdoor to the Oathpact had been found and was being exploited (RoW 75):

Quote

“I wanted to be in the other realm. See that part of our world. And I knew danger was coming. All spren could sense it. The Oathpact was no longer working correctly. Voidspren were sneaking onto Roshar, using some kind of back door. Two halves cannot fight this enemy. We need to be whole.”

Plus, there's the fact that Ulim's here at all. That's kinda a biggie, because he does back up that the Oathpact should still be binding him (when combined with what Pattern said), and (especially relevant) he implies that he believes bringing the Everstorm over will initiate a Return (RoW 73):

Quote

Bah, it was a fluke. We couldn’t break the last Herald, and the humans found some way to pin the whole Oathpact on him. So we got stuck on Braize. ...

It will take something big to restore the minds of the singers around the world. So we’re going to prime the pump, so to speak, with your people. Get them into stormform and pull the big storm over from Shadesmar. Odium thinks it will work, and considering he’s anything but a little god, we are going to do what he says. It’s better than the alternative, which generally involves a lot of pain and the occasional flavorful dismemberment. ...

Patience, Ulim said. Once the Return arrives, you will be proclaimed as the one who initiated it—and you will be given everything you deserve as the most important of all listeners.

[teknopathetic he/him]

15 hours ago, Andy92 said:

That was part of my biggest question too, as much as I like the theory in general. When Shallan’s mother died, there was still a body there. I’m not sure if we know the exact mechanics of what used to happen to a Herald’s body immediately after death during desolations. Did their bodies disappear upon death? 

We know Heralds have to be able to “die” because that’s how they got sent back to Braize during desolations. But who knows how that whole mechanic has worked ever since the other 9 abandoned their Honorblades and walked away. 

Actually ... the body doesn't get described much. Shallan instead tends to describe the white carpet with red stains more than the actual body and that has always seemed weird to me. When she has a PTSD flashback, it is always about the stained carpet or the soul trapped in the safe. Why does Shallan see a glowing light and why she is convinced her mother's soul did something weird are not really fully explicable based on the events that occurred. Shallan knew Testament was not her mother's soul, so what gives?

There may have been a body for a time, but she really goes on and on about the stained carpet and veers around there being a body (despite talking about other bodies she has found later in life). We never do find out who moved the body of if people knew about the burned our eyes? It is a bit odd no one noticed she had her eyes seared. 

Edited March 4, 2021 by teknopathetic