Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[Frustration]

4 hours ago, Ixthos said:

So, possibilities:

• low level background
  • radiates out into the space around the Rosharan system
  • background investiture slowly absorbed into gemhearts
    • Stormlight converts to other energy when used by gemheart or as a surge
  • Highstorms recycle investiture, drawing up background

It could just passively go to the SR if not used.

4 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I got a scenario where a non-Mistborn metal user can beat and kill a surgebinder one on one. Get a Leecher with an aluminum knife.  Come upon the guy unsuspecting.  Jump on his back and start leeching while  simultaneously stabbing with the knife.  Hold on for dear life until the guy dies.

Anyone can win against a sleeping oponent so I'll give you that one. Only Radiants have permenant armor, and a spren to wake them up if need be.

2 hours ago, therunner said:

You do have a point here, I neglected their offensive capabilities. So this would bump them up in my estimate. Still due to air friction they would not be able to move faster than Mach 20 (nothing we can build now can survive that), and unless equipped with heat medallions to store their excess heat they could not move much faster than Mach 1 (at Mach 2 their shielding would heat up to 120 degrees safely killing them after a few minutes). They might be able to sustain quicker bursts, but only for short time periods before they would need their armor to cool off.

Steel compounders have a top speed set, in short distances steel-pewter is better than steel-steel so I don't think they would be going mach speeds.

Spoiler

Questioner

I'm just curious about Steelrunners. I have to ask, assuming they have physical limitations?

Brandon Sanderson

They do. We can't go Speed Force on this sort of thing. Wind resistance is still a thing, and stuff like that.

Questioner

Bodily, their bodies--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. So, most magic in the cosmere will strengthen your body to let you use the magic to an extent, but-- Yeah, there's some pretty strong limitations.

Questioner

If you had a steel/steel Twinborn racing a pewter/steel, would you say that the pure steel, or the pewter burning to enhance their body-- in a short race?

Brandon Sanderson

Who would win? Probably pewter then, at that point. I would have to have Peter-- I wouldn't do it myself, make Peter run the math, and see what he comes up with. Those are the sort of things I go to him with.

Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017)

 

[therunner he/him]

3 hours ago, IAmTheStick said:

I doubt we'll see another fullborn. Probably twinborns at the most here on out, and a radiant will probably beat a twinborn pretty easily, I think. A full feruchemist? Ehhhh pretty even match I would say. Depends on the radiant. Full mistborn? An even closer match, only a very skilled radiant could beat a mistborn. A mistborn AND a feruchemist? Well, that's just a little bit broken.

I think the feruchemist would fare well against 3rd oath Radiant max, against higher oaths they lose as they have no tool outside of raw strength (which will make them larger -> less dexterous and bigger target for shardblade) to counter Shardplate. The only way feruchemists would stand a chance is if they surprised Radiant and blitzed them. And even against 3rd oath they would need to get close and not get high by shardblade and evade any longer range surges. I do agree with rest of assasment, mistborn is better but against shardplate would have issues and fullborn wins, no matter what. (although if you could lure fullborn to area where you preprepared supressor fabrials, that could be interesting).

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

It could just passively go to the SR if not used.

Anyone can win against a sleeping oponent so I'll give you that one. Only Radiants have permenant armor, and a spren to wake them up if need be.

Steel compounders have a top speed set, in short distances steel-pewter is better than steel-steel so I don't think they would be going mach speeds.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

I'm just curious about Steelrunners. I have to ask, assuming they have physical limitations?

Brandon Sanderson

They do. We can't go Speed Force on this sort of thing. Wind resistance is still a thing, and stuff like that.

Questioner

Bodily, their bodies--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. So, most magic in the cosmere will strengthen your body to let you use the magic to an extent, but-- Yeah, there's some pretty strong limitations.

Questioner

If you had a steel/steel Twinborn racing a pewter/steel, would you say that the pure steel, or the pewter burning to enhance their body-- in a short race?

Brandon Sanderson

Who would win? Probably pewter then, at that point. I would have to have Peter-- I wouldn't do it myself, make Peter run the math, and see what he comes up with. Those are the sort of things I go to him with.

Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017)

 

That is interesting, and if Brandon will stick to this it makes twin steel not nearly as much a threat against Radiant as I would assume, with the compounding not really providing much outside of larger stores. Although this depends on what is meant by "short-race", so I will probably not fully discount them yet. If they can move at ~100m/s for 30 minutes they would still be dangerous, albeit less so.

By the way, does the f-steel impart improved processing ability to handle the faster speed? So they would not crash into things when moving at speeds from 40m/s and up (human reaction speed is 0.25s for visual stimuli, so in 10 meter room they would crash into the wall as they would not have time to react). Because if not, that also limits them heavily, as it makes maneuvering at higher speed nigh impossible.

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, therunner said:

By the way, does the f-steel impart improved processing ability to handle the faster speed? So they would not crash into things when moving at speeds from 40m/s and up (human reaction speed is 0.25s for visual stimuli, so in 10 meter room they would crash into the wall as they would not have time to react). Because if not, that also limits them heavily, as it makes maneuvering at higher speed nigh impossible.

Yes, they do get improved reaction time.

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

5 hours ago, therunner said:

I think the difference is that while Leeching actively removes/substracts investiture while suppressors passively block access to investiture/spiritual realm. I think that while the leecher could kill spren, it would take quite a while as they would have to remove almost all their investiture (and they have a lot of it). I also think that Khriss was less surprised about killing spren, but more by existence of anti-investiture in general.

The only problem with that is that Raboniel was seeking a weapon to destroy spren, and Odium's forces already have access to metalborn agents. If Leeching could, and medalion technology is known by Southern Scadrians, why wouldn't she attempt to employ that process instead of seeking an alternative?

 

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

It could just passively go to the SR if not used.

Perhaps, that certainly is a possibility, but I don't think we have enough data to assume that is the case. I do agree it would make sense, but I also wouldn't be surprised if it isn't the case.

[therunner he/him]

54 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Yes, they do get improved reaction time.

Huh, interesting. So if I understand this correctly, f-zinc is partly more increased ability to think and process information (as in ingest it) and f-steel outside of physical speed also grants some measure of sped up perception and improved reaction time, but not necessarily allows user to think any faster than usual? So a bit like bullet time, but your perception speed improvement is not to the same extent as you physical speed? (going from this WoB: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6398)

54 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

The only problem with that is that Raboniel was seeking a weapon to destroy spren, and Odium's forces already have access to metalborn agents. If Leeching could, and medalion technology is known by Southern Scadrians, why wouldn't she attempt to employ that process instead of seeking an alternative?

I was under the impression that the agents were Terris full feruchemists (as she had Terris name, and wore many rings), and so not from southern scadrial. For some reason I was also under the impression that they might have predated Catecedre or were older than might seem, as there are ways to age slower. Either way because they were feruchemists and not allomancers I would assume they did not know about chromium, as that was discovered only after Catecedre, so is relatively "new".

Either way, they might have contact with Scadrians even outside Terris agents (for example Ghostbloods) who might share that information, so it still suggests that leeching might not be enough to kill spren.

If leeching cannot kill spren, it suggests that it cannot drain any investiture "fundamental" to spren existence, which might be just their spiritweb. Although how could spren recover from such draining I do not know.

 

Edited March 20, 2021 by therunner
accidentaly posted before finishing, last paragraph is from edit

[apepi]

Do we think we could end up seeing a 'full' radiant? One that has access to all the surges? I think that would be pretty cool.

[BenduLuke he/him]

18 hours ago, Frustration said:

when you weapon will destroy anything that doesn't matter but given that Shad M. Brooks is Brandon's Historical consultant they would know how basic medival weapons work and when they find an armor that resists them they will use historical weapons used to counter armor.

 

I even mentioned afterwards that you didn't reply to it here

Insults are not a valid argument even if they where true, which is not the case.

The heaviest thing we see a Mistborn move is a Koloss blade, the heaviest thing we see plate lift is holding off a chasmfiend, a creature about 1080 feet tall. and that was dead plate.

I fail to see what martial capability has to do with it, the most trained swordsman in the world, would most likely lose to a toddler in plate, the arguement is about numbers and we know from the amount of plate see in books, and the amount seen in visions that hundreds of Radiant reached the fourth oath, so it isn't a one in a thoushand thing.

And Windrunners were known for their skill with weapons historically, and Stonewards were not far behind them, they will be fairly to extremely competent with their weapons, thought the other orders will vary.

No it doesn't a leecher's range is their arm, a Radiant has their arm plus a seven foot one hit kill death weapon, and that doesn't even take into account that they could kill with surges, or with bows or countless other ways.

Yeah I am aware of Shad. People use the weapons they are familiar with that is why Kal defaults to a spear most of the time. Lyft doesn't like blades so she makes forks and hammers, but most of the Radiants default to swords and don't seem to consider other weapons.

I think i didn't respond to that comment because I couldn't see the relevance to the discussion we were having and I still don't so I don't know how to respond to it. Call it ignorance on my part as I am not sure of the point.

I wasn't really making an insult, I was expressing my opinion that you seem biased in an effort to encourage you to try and consider a different perspective. Everyone is biased to some degree which creates blind zones to our understanding.  I have actually appreciated comments you have made that have addressed some of my biases when I realize them causing me to confront them.

The heaviest thing we have seen metalborn affect are buildings. More often it isn't about weight and strength that affects what is wielded than about leverage. Shad would tell you that Kolos sword would be very unwieldy but no where near the weight limit for just pewter strength. Rashek and the other Terismen before he was TLR were lifting massive boulders out of the trail. Sazed was holding a gate closed with strength and weight against Kolos plural for a period of time. So there are metal born feats of strength comparable to Shard strength. The increased muscle and bone strength provided by Iron compounding to compensate for weight could mean that person could deliver a blow with their fist which might rock any moral in the cosmere back on their heels and shatter even living shard plate. If that durability doesn't extend to their skin they would have scraped and bloody knuckles, though at that level of density I suspect that even their skin would be more dense and durable.

I view Scadrial vs Roshar as a contest more like Bruce Lee vs Andre the Giant. Bruce Lee IMHO is the more versatile and skilled fighter, but Andre could take enourmous punishment and if he gets a hold of Bruce at any point his shear power would overwhelm Bruce.

10 hours ago, Ixthos said:

My argument isn't that Leechers adn suppressors are different, but that they are the same or work in similar manners. I'm not following the rest of the objection though, I'm afraid? My main point is that Leeching can't be a method to kill spren, or to disrupt the investiture that constitutes them, or else Raboniel or Khriss wouldn't be surprised about anti-investiture.

Your idea make me wonder if A nicorsil compounder could trap a Spren in Nicrosil.

7 hours ago, therunner said:

Radiants could also have access to fabrials, and those are not static and are in fact quite quickly and actively being developed. So we can for example equip our radiants with painrials on gauntlets and stuff some regrowth fabrials inside plate (when they figure out a way to produce them).

I do agree that steelrunner would be able to defend themselves so long as they keep moving. I am not sure if I agree that they could steel push with any greater strength then any one else, so on that I disagree. Also steelrunner would be still limited by the accumulated heat from friction of his shielding materials + escape velocities (if they were moving on a flat terrain, and they were moving with 11 km/s, after moving 1 km they would be 15 cm above ground, as the gravitational acceleration would not have enough time to drag them back to ground (as the ground curved away))

1. And for what feels like the hundredth time, velocity does not increase mass. (from the frame of reference of steelrunner he has no mass increase, but everything around him does, and vice versa for observer at relative rest...because motion is relative)

Tungsten, or iridium bullets (hardest metals). Uranium/plutonium might also be a good idea, because if lodged in it might make the shardplate radiactive at least temporarily.

Tapped weight does not increase strength (again neither Wax nor anyone else ever mentioned such application, and Terris have been experimenting with such abilities for millenia).

The armor would not behave like powered armor, it does not impart neither increased strength nor agility or endurence. In fact it would actively worse that, so Iron compounder would tire faster, because they are lugging 20-30 Kg of armor around, and would make them sitting duck for any long range attacks.

You do have a point here, I neglected their offensive capabilities. So this would bump them up in my estimate. Still due to air friction they would not be able to move faster than Mach 20 (nothing we can build now can survive that), and unless equipped with heat medallions to store their excess heat they could not move much faster than Mach 1 (at Mach 2 their shielding would heat up to 120 degrees safely killing them after a few minutes). They might be able to sustain quicker bursts, but only for short time periods before they would need their armor to cool off.

EDIT: However Radiant with transportation would easily evade them, and those with abrasion could stop them from moving. Also steel grants physical speed, not mental speed so they would be limited by their reflexes and reaction time, greatly limiting their potential (unless they have Required Secondary Powers, however since mental speed is separate attribute I do not think they do.)

If pewterarms had such improved aim I am sure Wax would mention it, as far as I can see they have in no way improved accuracy (outside of improvments imparted by better balance). Also hitting a head is very hard, and hitting eye slit would be even harder and Radiant sure as hell is not standing still as this is happening, but sure if they could pull it off than that would be very bad for the Radiant

If Thug punched a rock, their arm would break and now they are a bit paralyzed from the pain because they just shattered every bone in their hand (rocks are hard). Also why would the armor dissolve? It is always on per RoW, and if you could negate it by being smashed to rock it would be pretty dumb, since one of their usual opponents are Thunderclasts, which are made of rock.

They would be unequaled in strength and dexterity if they were tapping fast enough, and since they cannot compound they would waste quite a bit of their stores to match Radiant in plate for a few moments (although those moments could prove crucial).

F-Tin allows splitting, and F-nicrosil allows to store different investiture in different minds. A-pewter is one kind of investiture and so cannot be split. While windshiperer could store metal sense, they could just see metal, not push them.

While some twinborn (compounders) have more potential, most do not, and any twinborn are exceedingly rare (1 in ~10000 if we are being generous, so specific kinds are 1 in 2 million), so there will be only few with given ability combination. Also in desolation there were hundreds of oath four radiants, so they are much more common than any particular twinborn kind.

You are not the only to make the effort, you just push scadrians far beyond what has been shown or confirmed they can do to just give them a fighting chance against run-of-the-mill 4th oath Radiant.

Leeching requires physical contact, Radiant has superior reach, strength, speed and dexterity and cuts them down before they can make contact. Also leeching is not instantenous, so it would take some time for them to leach stormlight, but first they would have to take some time to disrupt the shardplate and in that time they would be killed (if the Radiant let them come that close).

To quickly go over the second post

Ettmetal is not alloy but new metal.

I already explained allomantic burning (and it is on coppermind).

Default does not mean it is the only thing they use (eg. Kaladin and spear). Iron is not more resistant to shardblades/shardwhatever than anything else outside of other invested materials/aluminum.

Armor does goes away when user is knocked unconscious is pretty useless armor + to knock them unconscious you would first need to overcome the armor (and as Dalinar show, deadplate can survive fall of ~hundred meters with the user okay).

In my opinion you heavily overestimate metalborn

To stand in shardplate and use shardblade/shardweapon does not require that much training if you are going against effectively unarmored opponent. If there is only 1-10 twinborn in generation that can have a chance to counter 4th oath radiant, they are the only weapon scadrial has against tens to hundreds of such Radiants, and that is a problem for Scadrial no matter how you slice it.

Again leeching takes time and touch, shardblades are longer than any arm -> they will lose that arm before they can react, or you know, Radiant will use lashing from a distance. All Radiant has to do is keep the opponent further than 2-3 meters away which they can easily do since their are faster, stronger and have more endurance. In fact, in this fight even 2th oath Radiant would have chance if they have a way to attack from range or a way to evade touch (so any with either, Gravitation/Transformation/Transportation/Abrasion/Illumination).

It is more Andre the Giant with speed and reflexes of Mike Tyson vs Bruce Lee.

 

I would love to see a fabrial scenerio.

A steel compounder has near unlimited speed which realistically means they can run very fast for a very long time. They are immune to the negative effects of inertia so sudden changes of direction wont affect them. They are capable of relativistic velocities if they can find a way to negate wind resistance and friction (bond with a Cryptic to become slippery) but at present that would limit them to mach speeds with some potential direction control through steel pushes. They could add the force of their velocity to their pushes for more impact. I finally get why we argue about velocity increasing mass. You are right from the steelrunner's perspective they retain the same mass but from their opponent's perspective that might be a different story.

Because of you I decided to investigate the chemical composition of incendiary rounds and was pleasantly surprised that I wasn't far off. Many actually do use aluminum and some are made with potassium magnesium compounds and aluminum. Some with those chemicals are even armor piercing.

https://www.bevfitchett.us/chemical-analysis-of-firearms/incendiary-bullets.html

Tapped weight by definition does increase strength and Wax in alloy of Law commented on that fact as well. We also have the example of Sazed holding the gate closed against the Kolos mostly due to his increased weight and the strength it provides.

I guess I didn't explain why I think Iron armor might act like powered armor for an Iron compounder. Iron pulling on levers and gears within the armor could cause it to be like modern robotic armor. It is the metal pulls that would grant what seems like enhanced strength normally. It would require practice and finesse. Kind of like all the work saving devices in Renett's lab.

I get the Idea of pewter arms having increased aim from how Vin gained increased balance like a cat. It didn't just increase strength but all the physical attributes at once of which F-pewter only stores strength. Steel would store speed. Gold would store healing. Nicrosil might store all of them as they are individually invested abilities which are potentially split between different metals.

there is some mental speed overlap in steel related to reflexes. Pushing liquid metal created through friction could be quite the offensive weapon.

Living armor is always immediately accessible but may require a conscious summoning. Shardblades disappear when the Radiant gets knocked out so it stands to reason that armor does to.

Not punch the rock but lift and swing the rock like a massive club.

You are right I take metalborn to the extreme (more so than seemingly anyone else), but I think most people overestimate Radiants when comparing them to metal born.

Kal beat a shard bearer because he was flat out a much better more talented warrior with only minimal radiant abilities at the time, is it so hard to imagine that extreme training or talent makes a difference in  a conflict with a stronger opponent.

Yes and a Leecher who touches the shardblade can nullify its invested cutting effect or if they touch the radiant before it is summoned block it all together. Perhaps touching the Shardblade they leech the stormlight right out of the Radiant through the connnection (could be a very extreme possibility). Also another extreme possibility is that a Leecher Savant might be able to do it from a distance.

 

5 hours ago, IAmTheStick said:

I doubt we'll see another fullborn. Probably twinborns at the most here on out, and a radiant will probably beat a twinborn pretty easily, I think. A full feruchemist? Ehhhh pretty even match I would say. Depends on the radiant. Full mistborn? An even closer match, only a very skilled radiant could beat a mistborn. A mistborn AND a feruchemist? Well, that's just a little bit broken.

I think it depends on the twinborn since there is the potential for unlimited or extreme ability available to a twinborn more so than even a full feruchemist.

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

It could just passively go to the SR if not used.

Anyone can win against a sleeping oponent so I'll give you that one. Only Radiants have permenant armor, and a spren to wake them up if need be.

Steel compounders have a top speed set, in short distances steel-pewter is better than steel-steel so I don't think they would be going mach speeds.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

I'm just curious about Steelrunners. I have to ask, assuming they have physical limitations?

Brandon Sanderson

They do. We can't go Speed Force on this sort of thing. Wind resistance is still a thing, and stuff like that.

Questioner

Bodily, their bodies--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. So, most magic in the cosmere will strengthen your body to let you use the magic to an extent, but-- Yeah, there's some pretty strong limitations.

Questioner

If you had a steel/steel Twinborn racing a pewter/steel, would you say that the pure steel, or the pewter burning to enhance their body-- in a short race?

Brandon Sanderson

Who would win? Probably pewter then, at that point. I would have to have Peter-- I wouldn't do it myself, make Peter run the math, and see what he comes up with. Those are the sort of things I go to him with.

Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017)

 

Radiants of the 4th ideal have permanent access to plate, but might still need to consciously summon it to protect them.

Steel compounders could travel at mach speeds which is more than enough to run circles around Radiants. Even at hundreds of MPH Radiants wouldn't see what hit them. By definition there are only 2 limits to their speed. They cannot run at the speed of light. Friction and wind resistance can become a problem but if they can solve that by say bonding a Cryptic to get slippery they can run near the speed of light. So with a Steel compounder you have a person who can run at hundreds to thousands of mph for long periods who are not affected by sudden changes in direction and need to limit their speed to how much wind resistance and friction they can handle for the given length of time. In additon they can transfer the momentum of their speed into their metal pushes to create devastating shardplate penetrating projectiles.

[The Technovore he/him]

54 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Steel compounders could travel at mach speeds which is more than enough to run circles around Radiants. Even at hundreds of MPH Radiants wouldn't see what hit them. By definition there are only 2 limits to their speed. They cannot run at the speed of light. Friction and wind resistance can become a problem but if they can solve that by say bonding a Cryptic to get slippery they can run near the speed of light. So with a Steel compounder you have a person who can run at hundreds to thousands of mph for long periods who are not affected by sudden changes in direction and need to limit their speed to how much wind resistance and friction they can handle for the given length of time. In additon they can transfer the momentum of their speed into their metal pushes to create devastating shardplate penetrating projectiles.

Cryptics make Lightweavers who can't do anything about Abrasion. You're thinking of cultivationspren, who create Edgedancers like Lift. Please note that making mistakes like this consistently severely weakens your stances on a lot of things because it demonstrates holes in understanding and lack of familiarity with the topic being discussed. Also consider you don't actually know that momentum goes into steelpushes, there is no evidence of that being the case in the books or coppermind. Just like you don't actually know that Radiants would be stupid enough to not know to use a hammer when dealing with an opponent in plate. (see below)

54 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I wasn't really making an insult, I was expressing my opinion that you seem biased in an effort to encourage you to try and consider a different perspective. Everyone is biased to some degree which creates blind zones to our understanding.  I have actually appreciated comments you have made that have addressed some of my biases when I realize them causing me to confront them

Mmmm, that seems like advice everyone could use, and like you seem to be aware, it applies to you as well. It's disingenuous to try to give Scadrial every advantage and to deny Roshar even a smidgen of credit. Hypothetical and complex scenarios like this are only resolved when everyone is attempting to get as close to a balanced approach as possible. Taking extreme and biased positions and forcing a polarized argument obscures facts, forces people to take sides, and severely impedes anyone's ability to take a balanced and honest look at everything. I recognize that in this conversation, it doesn't really matter, we're arguing about a fantasy hypothetical in a book series, but you only have to look at modern politics to see that extremism only begets extremism.

54 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I would love to see a fabrial scenerio.

I have one. Painrial chain-shot. You know how people take two weighted objects connected with a chain and fling them so they wrap around an enemy? Imagine a projectile like that, except the projectile is also a painrial. Imagine letting loose a net that catches a steelrunner and completely disables them with overwhelming pain. Imagine hitting a Mistborn or Feruchemist or flying Twinborn and knocking them out, just to haul them back so they can grill them for secrets. It would not be difficult for an Oath 4 Radiant to hit an attacking metalborn with a painrial and capture them. Can you consider how quickly Roshar can unlock Scadrian secrets with painrial interrogation? How long would it take Rannette or a member of the Set or Ghostbloods to break after a week or a month of excruciating pain?

54 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Yes and a Leecher who touches the shardblade can nullify its invested cutting effect or if they touch the radiant before it is summoned block it all together. Perhaps touching the Shardblade they leech the stormlight right out of the Radiant through the connnection (could be a very extreme possibility). Also another extreme possibility is that a Leecher Savant might be able to do it from a distance.

I looked into this, I'll give you the "touch the radiant before it is summoned block it all together", because we do know that they can do this. However you have little to no basis for nullifying its cutting effect, because shardblades are made from godmetal. They can perhaps damage the blade, but there is no reason to believe that they'd block it. Can a leecher take away Lerasium's ability to make Mistborn? No, but it can destroy the Lerasium without gaining its effect. They'd make the blade smoke and perhaps injure the spren, but it would not stop the spren from severing the Leecher's spine. And you're right, that is an extreme possibility. Since extreme possibilities are totally cool and good for Metalborn, let me give some for a Radiant.

It might be possible that a Windrunner Savant could Lash a metalborn from a distance, controlling them casually with just a thought and smashing them into the ground over and over again or sending to space to die. Or a Windrunner could lash boulders or even entire buildings to home in on enemy Metalborn or entire armies and crush them. Or a Windrunner would unconsciously lash away projectiles and even bullets and make them hit the ground instead making the Windrunner impervious to everything but aluminum but Sprenplate can block that and with the Windrunner flying at mach speeds or may even close to light speed they could just outrun the bullets. Skybreakers could easily do all that too.

54 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Yeah I am aware of Shad. People use the weapons they are familiar with that is why Kal defaults to a spear most of the time. Lyft doesn't like blades so she makes forks and hammers, but most of the Radiants default to swords and don't seem to consider other weapons.

I think i didn't respond to that comment because I couldn't see the relevance to the discussion we were having and I still don't so I don't know how to respond to it. Call it ignorance on my part as I am not sure of the point.

That's disingenuous on multiple levels. "Most of the Radiants" that we see in the books are darkeyed Windrunner soldiers that use spears, and Dalinar used shardhammers and if the Stormfather would let him would probably use them for hammers. The only Radiants we see default to swords are Shallan and Jasnah but they're most familiar with them culturally and have never needed to use anything else. 

Secondly... really? You called out Frustration and therunner for not brining up their own weird fringe-theories and suggested it was because they were scared or lacked knowledge and when they do, you state "I couldn't see the relevance to the discussion... and I still don't"? My friend... I shall not say more, I do not wish to be more confrontational than I have already been. 

Edited March 20, 2021 by The Technovore
7 people watching this thread. Hoo boy.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, apepi said:

Do we think we could end up seeing a 'full' radiant? One that has access to all the surges? I think that would be pretty cool.

Yelig-nar can do that.

30 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I think i didn't respond to that comment because I couldn't see the relevance to the discussion we were having and I still don't so I don't know how to respond to it. Call it ignorance on my part as I am not sure of the point.

It's an unblockable "I win"  that was it's point.

31 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

The heaviest thing we have seen metalborn affect are buildings. More often it isn't about weight and strength that affects what is wielded than about leverage. Shad would tell you that Kolos sword would be very unwieldy but no where near the weight limit for just pewter strength. Rashek and the other Terismen before he was TLR were lifting massive boulders out of the trail. Sazed was holding a gate closed with strength and weight against Kolos plural for a period of time. So there are metal born feats of strength comparable to Shard strength. The increased muscle and bone strength provided by Iron compounding to compensate for weight could mean that person could deliver a blow with their fist which might rock any moral in the cosmere back on their heels and shatter even living shard plate. If that durability doesn't extend to their skin they would have scraped and bloody knuckles, though at that level of density I suspect that even their skin would be more dense and durable.

You will note I said Mistborn, and second off, even with Feruchemy they will never get to the point that they will be able to move chasmfiends, even if Square Cube law doesn't kill them, they would be unable to move that amount of muscle.

33 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Your idea make me wonder if A nicorsil compounder could trap a Spren in Nicrosil.

I've had a similar thought, though it will most likely only work for their own spren, but we could get AI, bracers which would be cool.

34 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Living armor is always immediately accessible but may require a conscious summoning. Shardblades disappear when the Radiant gets knocked out so it stands to reason that armor does to.

I'm inclined to disagree Shardblades are never described as being "always there" and Rlain uses the word "invisible" not "dismissed"

36 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Kal beat a shard bearer because he was flat out a much better more talented warrior with only minimal radiant abilities at the time, is it so hard to imagine that extreme training or talent makes a difference in  a conflict with a stronger opponent.

Kaladin is one of if not the best fighters in the Cosmere, I don't think anyone else minus Atium would be able to reliably pull that off. And again that's deadplate

 

[therunner he/him]

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

A steel compounder has near unlimited speed which realistically means they can run very fast for a very long time. They are immune to the negative effects of inertia so sudden changes of direction wont affect them. They are capable of relativistic velocities if they can find a way to negate wind resistance and friction (bond with a Cryptic to become slippery) but at present that would limit them to mach speeds with some potential direction control through steel pushes. They could add the force of their velocity to their pushes for more impact. I finally get why we argue about velocity increasing mass. You are right from the steelrunner's perspective they retain the same mass but from their opponent's perspective that might be a different story.

Unlimited, except for limitations caused by air friction, which limits them to below sonic speeds or mach 1 at most without armor and Mach 10-15 with supermodern armor (so not really Era 2 scadrial). Of course this completely ignores the WoB shared by @Frustration, from which it seems that their maximum speed without equipment is not that different from non-compounder with A-pewter and f-steel. And since this is Scadrial vs Roshar, for the purpose of this discussion they will never achieve relativistic speeds.

Velocity has no force, however they could throw items they have on themselves which are also moving fast with them. Of course at speeds they can achieve that will still be inferior to guns.

So you finally admit that velocity does not increase mass for any functional purpose? I am glad. (and no the story will not be different from opponents perspective, outside of homework calculations of total energy).

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Because of you I decided to investigate the chemical composition of incendiary rounds and was pleasantly surprised that I wasn't far off. Many actually do use aluminum and some are made with potassium magnesium compounds and aluminum. Some with those chemicals are even armor piercing.

https://www.bevfitchett.us/chemical-analysis-of-firearms/incendiary-bullets.html

Well at the very top is says that incendiary bullets are mainly used against flammable materials, which shardplate is not. And while it mentiones that some are armor-piercing/incendiary combination exists it does not say if the incendiary part is supposed to help with armor-piercing or not (and melting points and specific heats of metal hint that any incendiary component would not do much, but it might serve as a secondary propellant, like in HEAT ammunition I already linked.).

Again you did not address my points for why it is unrealistic (not enough heat supplied) for a single bullet to melt through shardplate.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Tapped weight by definition does increase strength and Wax in alloy of Law commented on that fact as well. We also have the example of Sazed holding the gate closed against the Kolos mostly due to his increased weight and the strength it provides.

By definition it increases weight that is why the it is called tapping weight. All Wax commented on was that he could still walk and move even with his increased mass, but nowhere does he tap weight to throw people around (hint, it is because he cannot). Sazed used his weight to make something heavy to resist Koloss and his strength (separate attribute in pewter) to brace himself against the gate for additional support.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

I guess I didn't explain why I think Iron armor might act like powered armor for an Iron compounder. Iron pulling on levers and gears within the armor could cause it to be like modern robotic armor. It is the metal pulls that would grant what seems like enhanced strength normally. It would require practice and finesse. Kind of like all the work saving devices in Renett's lab.

So they would have to both move their body and the armor or would their pushes move the body around as well (like a marionette)? Either way, good luck coordinating that in the middle of battle were single mistake kills you (hello shardblade). Also the amount of control that would require is incredible, on the level of someone like Kelsier, who is by no means ordinary. But maybe with a long training it could work, but not in heated battle. Plus a point I forgot earlier, unlike shardplate, the iron armor would have gaps, as it is not living/shapeshifting.

As a device for use in peaceful setting like a factory, sure could be useful, but in battle against stronger and faster opponent who can move around without constantly doing multiple things?

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

I get the Idea of pewter arms having increased aim from how Vin gained increased balance like a cat. It didn't just increase strength but all the physical attributes at once of which F-pewter only stores strength. Steel would store speed. Gold would store healing. Nicrosil might store all of them as they are individually invested abilities which are potentially split between different metals.

Well balance and aim are two very different things, if they had such good aim we would expect to see a lot of Thugs with bows in era 1/with guns in era 2, and yet I do not think they are there. And yes, while A-pewter increases multiple thinks, it does so as a singular resource -> hence it cannot be split using nicrosil (as nicrosil does not manipulate investiture outside of storing some).

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

there is some mental speed overlap in steel related to reflexes. Pushing liquid metal created through friction could be quite the offensive weapon.

True on the reflexes, I was not aware of that. If they create liquid metal through friction from their movement they are already dead, from breathing in superheated air, or just from convection of heat from their armor.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Living armor is always immediately accessible but may require a conscious summoning. Shardblades disappear when the Radiant gets knocked out so it stands to reason that armor does to.

Do living blades disappear, or just deadblades? And yes living armor does seem to require conscious summoning, but it might also react on its own in danger. After all, we have never seen anything that might dispute that.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Not punch the rock but lift and swing the rock like a massive club.

That makes more sense, I misunderstood originally. Altough that raises the question, why is the Radiant not skewering them with the blade as they are just as fast (they have just pewter enhancements)?

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Kal beat a shard bearer because he was flat out a much better more talented warrior with only minimal radiant abilities at the time, is it so hard to imagine that extreme training or talent makes a difference in  a conflict with a stronger opponent.

Well Kal is special boy, kind of like Vin is a special gal. That is why we are trying to talk about ~average level of skill, not exceptional individuals as those are always outliers. And the shardbearer was 20 something year old overconfident kid (Shallans brother) with not much training (at best 3-4 years, where most shardbearers train from early puberty) against someone who seems to have some spiritual realm shenanigans going on (Son of Tanavast, talent with spear, wind stuff), no wonder he got himself killed.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Yes and a Leecher who touches the shardblade can nullify its invested cutting effect or if they touch the radiant before it is summoned block it all together. Perhaps touching the Shardblade they leech the stormlight right out of the Radiant through the connnection (could be a very extreme possibility). Also another extreme possibility is that a Leecher Savant might be able to do it from a distance.

[citation needed] on the negating invested cutting. Of course even so, it is still 6 feet long metal and ordinarily sharp sword wielded by someone with strength of at least 20 men, so the leecher will still get cut/torn in half immediately (or the radiant just punches them, that would work as well). And maybe division savant has set the air on fire around our metalborn from 20 meters, completely unsuported maybes are not much useful. Also savantism should carry drawbacks, so maybe our leeching savant needs to continually leech investiture or they die (kind of like Returned), so elsecaller could just put them in a box and wait a bit.

 

EDIT: " Or a Windrunner would unconsciously lash away projectiles and even bullets and make them hit the ground instead making the Windrunner impervious to everything but aluminum " @The Technovore

Fun fact, I think you do not need much more than what 4th oath radiant can do (to protect from just one, two directions at least). If the bullet is fired from ~30 m at speed 300m/s it would take only ~1000 m/s^2 accelaration from reverse lashing to get it to curve 50cm away, enough to miss the target (if they are aiming accurately, which based on the discussion apparently any metalborn confronting Radiants do) Coincidentally that is roughly how much acceleration Kal applied to Pursuers head to rip it off (5000 N, based on how much force it takes to tear human head off and 5kg estimate on weight of head), so this is not that far from what is actually possible. True numbers will be different depending on details, but the ballpark is realistic for windrunners.

Edited March 20, 2021 by therunner

[Inquisitor #5]

Hi,

 

I would like to point out that, far as we can tell, f-nicrosil stores innate investiture, or ability to do magic, not kinetic investiture, or magical output, as Wax and Marasi still needed to ingest metal when drawing on the Bands, iirc.

So our hypothetical thugbearer friend would not be tapping a-pewter output, just enhancing their ability to burn pewter, theoretically up to the pewter equivalent of steelpushes affecting trace metals and throwing boulders.

Otherwise I generally agree with the assesment that fullborn are basically the 'I win' button of the Cosmere, that most metalborn would struggle a lot to deal with a fourth oath Radiant and that third oath is still incredibly dangerous.

One thing that I feel is a discounted asset in a hypothetical united Scadrial vs. united Roshar is the medallions. Assuming that the southerners, with lower rates of metalborn on account of no artificial lerasium lineages, have been making heat medallions sufficient to keep entire populations from dying from the weather, how much could production be ramped up with the higher rates of metalborn in the north? Even working with the restriction of one medallion, granting at most three attributes at a time (per Allik's description in ch. 21 of BoM) they'd be an incredible force multiplier, both for non-metalborn ground troops and metalborn eager to get into hypothetical duels with surgebinders. Assuming that the medallions can be filled through compounding, you could have a small reserve of allomancers supplying a large number of people with, finite but not insignificant, stores of speed/strength/health or whatever else might help them, like people on guard duty getting wakefulness/sight/hearing for instance.

I'm not saying that this would be enough of an advantage in itself, but I do think it a plausible way to level the playing field somewhat and giving a steel compounder the ability to tap health and/or store warmth might help mitigate some of the friction related issues, for example. Also, if we limit each medallion to two attributes max, we can remain within what the regular, non-Bands, medallions have been show to do on screen as Allik mentions having seen medallions that do three twice in his life, implying they're very rare.

I left out medallions that grant allomantic powers as I'm less sure about how easy they'd be to make/refill, feruchemy looks simpler from where I'm standing, as you are only refilling a separate store and not messing with the enabling nicrosil, though per Allik we can probably assume that you can make a medallion purely out of nicrosil that grants up to three allomantic abilities, plus f-nicrosil itself, though before we know more about how f-nicrosil and nicrosil compounding work, I'm not prepared to assume they're as renewable.

So, that's my two cents, or more probably emerald broams, given how wordy I got.

¤_¤

Edited March 22, 2021 by Inquisitor #5
Added a word to make a sentence make more sense

[therunner he/him]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I would like to point out that, far as we can tell, f-nicrosil stores innate investiture, or ability to do magic, not kinetic investiture, or magical output, as Wax and Marasi still needed to ingest metal when drawing on the Bands, iirc.

So our hypothetical thugbearer friend would not be tapping a-pewter output, just enhancing their ability to burn pewter, theoretically up to the pewter equivalent of steelpushes affecting trace metals and throwing boulders.

Yeah, I agree, but for purpose of the discussion I decided to assume @BenduLuke scenario, as without being able to increase A-pewter through tapping faster they would not be able to match neither strength, nor speed of Radiant in plate. Also this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/370/#e12122) might be read that storing stormlight (a kinetic investiture) might be possible, so other types might do as well.

 

2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

One thing that I feel is a discounted asset in a hypothetical united Scadrial vs. united Roshar is the medallions. Assuming that the southerners, with lower rates of metalborn on account of no artificial lerasium lineages, have been making heat medallions sufficient to keep entire populations from dying from the weather, how much could production be ramped up with the higher rates of metalborn in the north? Even working with the restriction of one medallion, granting at most three attributes at a time (per Allik's description in ch. 21 of BoM) they'd be an incredible force multiplier, both for non-metalborn ground troops and metalborn eager to get into hypothetical duels with surgebinders. Assuming that the medallions can be filled through compounding, you could have a small reserve of allomancers supplying a large number of people with, finite but not insignificant, stores of speed/strength/health or whatever else might help them, like people on guard duty getting wakefulness/sight/hearing for instance.

I'm not saying that this would be enough of an advantage in itself, but I do think it a plausible way to level the playing field somewhat and giving a steel compounder the ability to tap health and/or store warmth might help mitigate some of the friction related issues, for example. Also, if we limit each medallion to two attributes max, we can remain within what the regular, non-Bands, medallions have been show to do on screen as Allik mentions having seen medallions that do three twice in his life, implying they're very rare.

I left out medallions that grant allomantic powers as I'm less sure about how easy they'd be to make/refill, feruchemy looks simpler from where I'm standing, as you are only refilling a separate store and not messing with the enabling nicrosil, though per Allik we can probably assume that you can make a medallion purely out of nicrosil that grants up to three allomantic abilities, plus f-nicrosil itself, though before we know more about how f-nicrosil and nicrosil compounding work, I'm not prepared to assume they're as renewable.

I agree, I have been thinking about those lately and I think they are by far the greatest asset Scadrial has. If they can be mass-produced, then in principle, even if making of a single medallion deprives their creator of the respective power, they can still be used to turn their entire population of misting into compounders, which is insane. And that does not require medallions granting allomancy, just feruchemy and only one at that. Any twinborn would now be compounder + 1, 2 additional feruchemical abilities (with 2 power medallion), for example

1. A steeltwin (either born, or though a medallion) with brass (heat) and cadmium (breath) would be able to achieve higher maximum speeds, as by storing their heat they would never heat up too much + it would provide some amount of cooling to their armor. The breath would allow them to run at Mach 1-2 for longer periods of time without scalding their lungs/airways and without lugging around breathing apparatus.
2. Or duralumin (connection) to any metalborn, to get agent with language abilities so that they can blend in better.

Also since medallions granting powers do not get used up, after making a few thousand of them, they pretty much have tools to have a standing army of compounders, just needing to replace destroyed or lost medallions. If they can easily make also allomancy medallions, they can select ideal candidates to give compounding to, further increasing their effectiveness. (altough this would assume they have pretty much full control over their population, which is a bit iffy). And since f-nicrosil seems to work like f-copper (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/316/#e11247) so something that does not require replenishing, A-medallions would not require refilling, making them potentially the more powerful/flexible ones.

However if I do remember correctly, they had issues with filling the unsealed metalminds back, so that might limit their effectiveness, but that does not address allomantic medallions which should not have such weakness. I am thinking that there will probably be some limitations on using medallions, as the ability to make thousands of compounders pretty much at will (after initial investment) seems a bit OP. However who knows what the future holds, hopefully after Lost Metal we will have more solid understanding of medallions and their working.

 

[AirsickAviar he/him]

I think full mistborn > 3d oath Radiant almost every time. I think for mistings or ferrings, depending on the type of radiant, it really becomes toss ups vs 3rd oath radiants, with most victories going to the radiant with his shardweapon, save for the few ferrings/mistings who landed that really strong combat ability and can use it properly. I am going to say I think it becomes closer to a 50/50 vs a radiant of the 4th oath. With the ability to have Duralamin of course. Without Duralamin, Radiant wins this most of the time at this stage. With Skill and Duralamin, knowing the strengths and weaknesses of the magic styles being even and complete, I think then the mistborn would probably hold the edge (instead of early war random fight, I think long term, after having perhaps fought on many battles with or against them giving them experience and knowledge after years), the mistborn will probably win the fight more often than not vs a fourth oath knight. Atium makes this too easy in infinite supply, so I am not adding it.

I don't think people are giving the credit Duralamin properly deserves here. Though first, just a small corrections to some of the posts I have seen. Claiming Shallon wasn't massively debilitated from the arrow to the brain and that all radiants can heal right back, because Renarin simply shrugged off the thunderclast is stupidly naive. In that very chapter, it was stunning to Adolin, who noted he was healing massively faster than the other radiants he knew, ie: What was shown to be enough to take other radiants out of combat profency could be healed by Renarin quick enough. But only a couple of orders have progression... So no, making that an all radiant thing is not an argument. That at best makes 2 out of 10 orders of radiants able to take that kind of damage and reliably still win a fight after that. And we have no confirmation that same is even true to the same degree for edgedancers, though that is likely. Yes, I am pretty sure if you break the head, against most radiants, if you get that far - you win. At least if they use that time to strike decisively and end it from that. The problem for the Mistborn here, is actually getting that far in the first place.

I do think shardplate really makes it so that only a competent mistborn can hold a victory here with any strong possibility, and even then it is a back and forth sort of thing.

Why do I think this is possible? Because Kaladin damaged shardplate from a triple lashing KICK in the battle in the arena. A Duralamin hit, with Pewter is much stronger than that, and would not take them out of the battle as much as it did to Kaladin, and then if you add other things like reinforced feet or other strong objects, like their own design of a similar thing to a shardhammer (not actually shard metal, but something they just created to fight them with normal tools since they could not find how to build shardblades, but it still damages plate when you have that assisted strength)?

Oh yes, shardhammer like weapon + pewter to go right around the swings of the radiant, and then they get hit with a full duralimin boosted hit from that weapon? If being hit with it normally cracked it, where the next would break right through, I would imagine this hit would at least break through it entirely, making the next strike decisive. And I would imagine the most powerful mistborns could make that area hit with the force of a 100 meter drop, easily, on that small surface area. And we already KNOW - that can break shardplate completely, causing death. From similar hits, we even see shardbearers (on the shattered planes), thrown back from powerful hits dozens of feet, and having to reorient themselves. So this would give time to take more pewter in that delay. And while of course, we know that a radiant could heal that, so they wouldn't die. But it would take out the shardplate, and even trying to heal it would take a HUGE investment at that point of stormlight, making them far, far less effective to be able to continue the fight at that point. I don't think a Radiant who is not a very competent and trained veteran would really last long if this simply blow lands, they would lose. But I do think a strong fighter, let's say, Adolin or Kaladin, would be able to take that blow, and still put up a fight, knowing what to invest stormlight on, and when not to. It would give them that wake up call to be far more cautious, now trying to win with skill, and speed only, and not hindering them with so much unnecessary stormlight investiture in their shardplate. Remember what Vin did to a skull with pewter + dura, and knowing that she isn't near as strong as pure-line mistborn. What could Elend have down with a similar pewter burn? We haven't see displays like that even when people with shardplate punched into people, which has happened, for comparison. But you need Dura to actually make this work.

 

EDIT:

Also, are we forgetting that Duralamin enhanced steel pushes can launch buildings when caught between a strong enough anchor point? Even if we argue that they cannot effect shardplate, if they manage to get caught with someone projecting that power onto them with other, heavy enough objects like what Szeth did, it could be much, much worse on them than what Szeth did to several shardbearers when breaking them in such ways. Granted, only the very, very rare mistborns would be this level strong. Or someone with the right twin combos, like Wayne. When he used his mass enhancements. Which actually might be just about as rare, but he did completely smash that building :). Could have almost as easy, chucked entire metal pillars at people, or shardbearers, and probably kept more of that mass he used....

 

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by AirsickAviar
Wanting to add some weight + duralim steel push thoughts.

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

I don't think people are giving the credit Duralamin properly deserves here. Though first, just a small corrections to some of the posts I have seen. Claiming Shallon wasn't massively debilitated from the arrow to the brain and that all radiants can heal right back, because Renarin simply shrugged off the thunderclast is stupidly naive. In that very chapter, it was stunning to Adolin, who noted he was healing massively faster than the other radiants he knew, ie: What was shown to be enough to take other radiants out of combat profency could be healed by Renarin quick enough. But only a couple of orders have progression... So no, making that an all radiant thing is not an argument. That at best makes 2 out of 10 orders of radiants able to take that kind of damage and reliably still win a fight after that. And we have no confirmation that same is even true to the same degree for edgedancers, though that is likely. Yes, I am pretty sure if you break the head, against most radiants, if you get that far - you win. At least if they use that time to strike decisively and end it from that. The problem for the Mistborn here, is actually getting that far in the first place.

Kaladin was stabbed several times in the spine and was fine seconds later, if Vin took even one of those hits without the Mists she's dead.

6 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

Why do I think this is possible? Because Kaladin damaged shardplate from a triple lashing KICK in the battle in the arena. A Duralamin hit, with Pewter is much stronger than that, and would not take them out of the battle as much as it did to Kaladin, and then if you add other things like reinforced feet or other strong objects, like their own design of a similar thing to a shardhammer (not actually shard metal, but something they just created to fight them with normal tools since they could not find how to build shardblades, but it still damages plate when you have that assisted strength)?

It was far more than a tripple lashing, it was enough to completly shatter Kal's legs

8 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

Oh yes, shardhammer like weapon + pewter to go right around the swings of the radiant, and then they get hit with a full duralimin boosted hit from that weapon? If being hit with it normally cracked it, where the next would break right through, I would imagine this hit would at least break through it entirely, making the next strike decisive. And I would imagine the most powerful mistborns could make that area hit with the force of a 100 meter drop, easily, on that small surface area. And we already KNOW - that can break shardplate completely, causing death. From similar hits, we even see shardbearers (on the shattered planes), thrown back from powerful hits dozens of feet, and having to reorient themselves. So this would give time to take more pewter in that delay. And while of course, we know that a radiant could heal that, so they wouldn't die. But it would take out the shardplate, and even trying to heal it would take a HUGE investment at that point of stormlight, making them far, far less effective to be able to continue the fight at that point. I don't think a Radiant who is not a very competent and trained veteran would really last long if this simply blow lands, they would lose. But I do think a strong fighter, let's say, Adolin or Kaladin, would be able to take that blow, and still put up a fight, knowing what to invest stormlight on, and when not to. It would give them that wake up call to be far more cautious, now trying to win with skill, and speed only, and not hindering them with so much unnecessary stormlight investiture in their shardplate. Remember what Vin did to a skull with pewter + dura, and knowing that she isn't near as strong as pure-line mistborn. What could Elend have down with a similar pewter burn? We haven't see displays like that even when people with shardplate punched into people, which has happened, for comparison. But you need Dura to actually make this work.

The only time a person in plate was sent flying on the shattered plains was Dalinar who was hit by a creature almost 1080 feet tall.

Pewter only doubles someones strength, tripple if flared, but that is nowhere near the strength needed to almost break metal canteens by accident, the strength plate gives is simply staggering,a child sent a full grown Stormform, flying twenty feet, with a simple kick.

[BenduLuke he/him]

On 3/20/2021 at 3:25 PM, The Technovore said:

Cryptics make Lightweavers who can't do anything about Abrasion. You're thinking of cultivationspren, who create Edgedancers like Lift. Please note that making mistakes like this consistently severely weakens your stances on a lot of things because it demonstrates holes in understanding and lack of familiarity with the topic being discussed. Also consider you don't actually know that momentum goes into steelpushes, there is no evidence of that being the case in the books or coppermind. Just like you don't actually know that Radiants would be stupid enough to not know to use a hammer when dealing with an opponent in plate. (see below)

Mmmm, that seems like advice everyone could use, and like you seem to be aware, it applies to you as well. It's disingenuous to try to give Scadrial every advantage and to deny Roshar even a smidgen of credit. Hypothetical and complex scenarios like this are only resolved when everyone is attempting to get as close to a balanced approach as possible. Taking extreme and biased positions and forcing a polarized argument obscures facts, forces people to take sides, and severely impedes anyone's ability to take a balanced and honest look at everything. I recognize that in this conversation, it doesn't really matter, we're arguing about a fantasy hypothetical in a book series, but you only have to look at modern politics to see that extremism only begets extremism.

I have one. Painrial chain-shot. You know how people take two weighted objects connected with a chain and fling them so they wrap around an enemy? Imagine a projectile like that, except the projectile is also a painrial. Imagine letting loose a net that catches a steelrunner and completely disables them with overwhelming pain. Imagine hitting a Mistborn or Feruchemist or flying Twinborn and knocking them out, just to haul them back so they can grill them for secrets. It would not be difficult for an Oath 4 Radiant to hit an attacking metalborn with a painrial and capture them. Can you consider how quickly Roshar can unlock Scadrian secrets with painrial interrogation? How long would it take Rannette or a member of the Set or Ghostbloods to break after a week or a month of excruciating pain?

I looked into this, I'll give you the "touch the radiant before it is summoned block it all together", because we do know that they can do this. However you have little to no basis for nullifying its cutting effect, because shardblades are made from godmetal. They can perhaps damage the blade, but there is no reason to believe that they'd block it. Can a leecher take away Lerasium's ability to make Mistborn? No, but it can destroy the Lerasium without gaining its effect. They'd make the blade smoke and perhaps injure the spren, but it would not stop the spren from severing the Leecher's spine. And you're right, that is an extreme possibility. Since extreme possibilities are totally cool and good for Metalborn, let me give some for a Radiant.

It might be possible that a Windrunner Savant could Lash a metalborn from a distance, controlling them casually with just a thought and smashing them into the ground over and over again or sending to space to die. Or a Windrunner could lash boulders or even entire buildings to home in on enemy Metalborn or entire armies and crush them. Or a Windrunner would unconsciously lash away projectiles and even bullets and make them hit the ground instead making the Windrunner impervious to everything but aluminum but Sprenplate can block that and with the Windrunner flying at mach speeds or may even close to light speed they could just outrun the bullets. Skybreakers could easily do all that too.

That's disingenuous on multiple levels. "Most of the Radiants" that we see in the books are darkeyed Windrunner soldiers that use spears, and Dalinar used shardhammers and if the Stormfather would let him would probably use them for hammers. The only Radiants we see default to swords are Shallan and Jasnah but they're most familiar with them culturally and have never needed to use anything else. 

Secondly... really? You called out Frustration and therunner for not brining up their own weird fringe-theories and suggested it was because they were scared or lacked knowledge and when they do, you state "I couldn't see the relevance to the discussion... and I still don't"? My friend... I shall not say more, I do not wish to be more confrontational than I have already been. 

Your right cultivation spren (I was having a brain slip day on Spren)

A balanced approach does mean looking at potential extremes. Radiants of 4th Ideal are the extreme for now, the average are 2nd Ideal who lack sword, armor, and most of their healing and burn stormlight very fast. So to attempt to compare the extreme 4th ideal I imagine potential extreme metal metalborn. I intentionally try to imagine metalborn who I think could stand up to extreme Radiants given assets metalborn might have era 2 and weaknesses Radiants have post ROW. So yeah I tend to skew my senerio's toward metalborn since there seems to be such a bias toward Radiants most of whom are not comparable to a Kal, or Dalinar in combat.

How does a Radiant make a painrial projectile? How do they activate the pain giving of the painrial on their attempted target from a distance? How much stormlight does it consume? How besides luck do they hit someone who may be moving 100's of mph? How long does it take for the Rosharan interegator to build up the knowledge of the physical sciences for the basis they need to understand the Scadrian Technology? How much indepth scientific knowledge does a soldier from Scadrial have to extract? (Your are not going to send a Renett on a scouting mission).

Maybe I am ignorant but I have always seen the cutting ability of shardblades as a magical invested ability not a material ability since they don't actually cut living flesh so by touching the blade a Leecher might be able to nullify that aspect of a shardblades ability. It would also potentially lock the living blade into its current form. Of course it might reqiure the blade catching trick Kal learned. My basis is in the statement that Leechers can nullify abilities of invested weapons in the coppermind.

I suppose a Windrunner savant might be able to eventually lash from a distance, what do you suppose the detriment might be to reaching that level of ability. Soulcasters turn into their most cast material as they become savant. Homing projectiles seem more like a Reverse lashing ability. Kal did use lashings to throw stones in OB against I think Amram. If Windrunners ever get to the point where they can use lashings at a distance then lashing away projectiles is a definite possibility. Still surges used at a distance seem to take rare individuals like Jasna.

Dalinar didn't actually use a shard hammer it was just a very heavy regular hammer, but even he was more adept and likely to use a sword in combat though perhaps less likely than some others. Grabbing the haft of a shardspear like current Windrunners default to instead of Shardblade would actually be easier. Most radiant do seem to default to blades.

We haven't actually seen anyone succesfully steal or use connection in combat so I would need more details to understand how that gives combat trumping ability especially since Stormfather clearly said that Bondsmiths individual abilities in combat are less than notable. The closest we come is Ishar trying to steal Dalinars connection to Stormfather and we really don't know what would have happened there if Zeth hadn't intervened.

On 3/20/2021 at 3:43 PM, Frustration said:

It's an unblockable "I win"  that was it's point.

You will note I said Mistborn, and second off, even with Feruchemy they will never get to the point that they will be able to move chasmfiends, even if Square Cube law doesn't kill them, they would be unable to move that amount of muscle.

I've had a similar thought, though it will most likely only work for their own spren, but we could get AI, bracers which would be cool.

I'm inclined to disagree Shardblades are never described as being "always there" and Rlain uses the word "invisible" not "dismissed"

Kaladin is one of if not the best fighters in the Cosmere, I don't think anyone else minus Atium would be able to reliably pull that off. And again that's deadplate

 

How is it unblockable?

With plain feruchemy maybe not but with compounded feruchemy what makes you think it can't reach that level?

It is possible that at 4th oath armor is reflexive but that has yet to be seen.

Yes Kaladin is impressive and he was able to beat more than one shardbearer with minimum investiture. As you may have guessed I think there are many other options than. I agree that we also haven't really seen the full potentiality of Living plate yet.

On 3/20/2021 at 4:17 PM, therunner said:

Unlimited, except for limitations caused by air friction, which limits them to below sonic speeds or mach 1 at most without armor and Mach 10-15 with supermodern armor (so not really Era 2 scadrial). Of course this completely ignores the WoB shared by @Frustration, from which it seems that their maximum speed without equipment is not that different from non-compounder with A-pewter and f-steel. And since this is Scadrial vs Roshar, for the purpose of this discussion they will never achieve relativistic speeds.

Velocity has no force, however they could throw items they have on themselves which are also moving fast with them. Of course at speeds they can achieve that will still be inferior to guns.

Well at the very top is says that incendiary bullets are mainly used against flammable materials, which shardplate is not. And while it mentiones that some are armor-piercing/incendiary combination exists it does not say if the incendiary part is supposed to help with armor-piercing or not (and melting points and specific heats of metal hint that any incendiary component would not do much, but it might serve as a secondary propellant, like in HEAT ammunition I already linked.).

Again you did not address my points for why it is unrealistic (not enough heat supplied) for a single bullet to melt through shardplate.

By definition it increases weight that is why the it is called tapping weight. All Wax commented on was that he could still walk and move even with his increased mass, but nowhere does he tap weight to throw people around (hint, it is because he cannot). Sazed used his weight to make something heavy to resist Koloss and his strength (separate attribute in pewter) to brace himself against the gate for additional support.

So they would have to both move their body and the armor or would their pushes move the body around as well (like a marionette)? Either way, good luck coordinating that in the middle of battle were single mistake kills you (hello shardblade). Also the amount of control that would require is incredible, on the level of someone like Kelsier, who is by no means ordinary. But maybe with a long training it could work, but not in heated battle. Plus a point I forgot earlier, unlike shardplate, the iron armor would have gaps, as it is not living/shapeshifting.

As a device for use in peaceful setting like a factory, sure could be useful, but in battle against stronger and faster opponent who can move around without constantly doing multiple things?

Well balance and aim are two very different things, if they had such good aim we would expect to see a lot of Thugs with bows in era 1/with guns in era 2, and yet I do not think they are there. And yes, while A-pewter increases multiple thinks, it does so as a singular resource -> hence it cannot be split using nicrosil (as nicrosil does not manipulate investiture outside of storing some).

True on the reflexes, I was not aware of that. If they create liquid metal through friction from their movement they are already dead, from breathing in superheated air, or just from convection of heat from their armor.

Do living blades disappear, or just deadblades? And yes living armor does seem to require conscious summoning, but it might also react on its own in danger. After all, we have never seen anything that might dispute that.

That makes more sense, I misunderstood originally. Altough that raises the question, why is the Radiant not skewering them with the blade as they are just as fast (they have just pewter enhancements)?

Well Kal is special boy, kind of like Vin is a special gal. That is why we are trying to talk about ~average level of skill, not exceptional individuals as those are always outliers. And the shardbearer was 20 something year old overconfident kid (Shallans brother) with not much training (at best 3-4 years, where most shardbearers train from early puberty) against someone who seems to have some spiritual realm shenanigans going on (Son of Tanavast, talent with spear, wind stuff), no wonder he got himself killed.

[citation needed] on the negating invested cutting. Of course even so, it is still 6 feet long metal and ordinarily sharp sword wielded by someone with strength of at least 20 men, so the leecher will still get cut/torn in half immediately (or the radiant just punches them, that would work as well). And maybe division savant has set the air on fire around our metalborn from 20 meters, completely unsuported maybes are not much useful. Also savantism should carry drawbacks, so maybe our leeching savant needs to continually leech investiture or they die (kind of like Returned), so elsecaller could just put them in a box and wait a bit.

 

EDIT: " Or a Windrunner would unconsciously lash away projectiles and even bullets and make them hit the ground instead making the Windrunner impervious to everything but aluminum " @The Technovore

Fun fact, I think you do not need much more than what 4th oath radiant can do (to protect from just one, two directions at least). If the bullet is fired from ~30 m at speed 300m/s it would take only ~1000 m/s^2 accelaration from reverse lashing to get it to curve 50cm away, enough to miss the target (if they are aiming accurately, which based on the discussion apparently any metalborn confronting Radiants do) Coincidentally that is roughly how much acceleration Kal applied to Pursuers head to rip it off (5000 N, based on how much force it takes to tear human head off and 5kg estimate on weight of head), so this is not that far from what is actually possible. True numbers will be different depending on details, but the ballpark is realistic for windrunners.

Even hitting someone moving at over 100 mph would be extremely difficult and Steel compounders could move much faster than that before wind or friction becomes a problem.

A steelrunners velocity will add to the force of their projectile, and coinpushes have been shown to have bullet velocities alone.

I think you misunderstood I was guessing on possible incendiary compositions and when I saw that what I guessed is one of the types of rounds it amused me.

We still don't know what the actual heat resistance of shardplate is and it wasn't just heat but the nullifying effects of aluminum that I was referring to. Though I may be wrong I don't see any difference between chemical burning and allomantic burning of metal.

The Iron mechanical armor would require practice to move naturally.

I imagine that both Pewter and Tin would aid in marksmanship. Pewter because of the increase in physical abilities. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean there are not Pewter marksmen. Tin because of enhanced senses. It is the Soulbearer ferring that divides the invested abilities inherent in pewter burning Just like windwhisper splits the senses.

I don't think the Radiant in that situation would be as fast or strong.

4th ideal Radiants are outliers so need to be confronted with metalborn outliers. Most people I have seen promoting Radiants lean toward extreme Radiants.

Citation: A Leecher could prevent a Shardbearer from summoning their blade,[8] and can prevent a weapon using Investiture from working. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Chromium

 

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

A balanced approach does mean looking at potential extremes. Radiants of 4th Ideal are the extreme for now, the average are 2nd Ideal who lack sword, armor, and most of their healing and burn stormlight very fast. So to attempt to compare the extreme 4th ideal I imagine potential extreme metal metalborn. I intentionally try to imagine metalborn who I think could stand up to extreme Radiants given assets metalborn might have era 2 and weaknesses Radiants have post ROW. So yeah I tend to skew my senerio's toward metalborn since there seems to be such a bias toward Radiants most of whom are not comparable to a Kal, or Dalinar in combat.

It's far easier to get fourth oath Radiants than most of your suggestions.

6 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Maybe I am ignorant but I have always seen the cutting ability of shardblades as a magical invested ability not a material ability since they don't actually cut living flesh so by touching the blade a Leecher might be able to nullify that aspect of a shardblades ability. It would also potentially lock the living blade into its current form. Of course it might reqiure the blade catching trick Kal learned. My basis is in the statement that Leechers can nullify abilities of invested weapons in the coppermind.

We know that at least someone at Dragonsteel beleives that they have a non-invested ability to cut.

6 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

We haven't actually seen anyone succesfully steal or use connection in combat so I would need more details to understand how that gives combat trumping ability especially since Stormfather clearly said that Bondsmiths individual abilities in combat are less than notable. The closest we come is Ishar trying to steal Dalinars connection to Stormfather and we really don't know what would have happened there if Zeth hadn't intervened.

The Stormfather also says that seeing the lines shouldn't be possible, and that bringing spren into the PR like Ishar was doing, should be impossible

7 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

How is it unblockable?

prevent it.

Even if we give Kelsier Preservation, he won't win a two vs one,

and that's without bringing Preservation into it, or trying to unsplinter Honor.

9 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

With plain feruchemy maybe not but with compounded feruchemy what makes you think it can't reach that level?

Because muscle mass increases with Feruchemy, even if bone size increased with it, square cube law would prevent them from ever getting to that level of strength

13 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

It is possible that at 4th oath armor is reflexive but that has yet to be seen.

it's always there, that's what it says

[AirsickAviar he/him]

21 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It was far more than a tripple lashing, it was enough to completly shatter Kal's legs

I can't recall the exact amount, but there was a sane limit on it. He very deliberately DID NOT go full out, because his POV decision 'not to make it flashy, and expose himself to the crowd', can't recall the exact thoughts on his words, but something like that. So no, he didn't come with a full 100 lashing's light speed kick or something if that is what you are thinking. No, it was just a strong enough one to cause severe damage, without being obvious. And shatter his legs. Oh wait... We almost know certainly that pewter burning can cause that exact thing when not being careful... That's lightweight work here.
 

Quote

 

Kaladin was stabbed several times in the spine and was fine seconds later, if Vin took even one of those hits without the Mists she's dead.

 

 

 

The point this is addressing was a post that said if someone hammered a radiant's head in, it wouldn't matter. I said, it would. And claiming because Renarin healed it, doesn't for most radiant fights here. Healing a single stab wound in the spine is far, far, faaar less impressive than repearing a smashed in head... As I said, it was a slight correction on someone else's post (not sure who), who simply because X radiant with special healing factors, far more impressive than most radiant, survived something, that suddenly having any radiants head smashed in wouldn't end most all radiant fights in this matter. That was a ridiculous argument that I had to correct. Yes, IF (that is a big if), a pewter wielding mistborn got a clean hammer strike through to the skull of any radiant, they would be out of this fight, even if we could imagine they, if left with enough time, could possibly heal that (and that is another big if, as we KNOW they are not immortal, a certain amount of lethal damage to the brain should do it every time).

Quote

 

The only time a person in plate was sent flying on the shattered plains was Dalinar who was hit by a creature almost 1080 feet tall.

Pewter only doubles someones strength, tripple if flared, but that is nowhere near the strength needed to almost break metal canteens by accident, the strength plate gives is simply staggering,a child sent a full grown Stormform, flying twenty feet, with a simple kick.

 

Good correction on the 1080 feet tall, even though that wasn't nearly as tall as it was (it was clearly described as not a skyscraper, but enough where Adolin barely could be as tall as it's shin. So, 30-40ft range probably). I remember a shardbearer going flying, but didn't think so much on the fight. However, that still doesn't matter here as much, as the forces I think you are missing here about the power of the strike I am thinking of.

Which is why, it is far more than triple, when flaired. I am talking about a DURALIMIN BURN. Not just 'walking around for hours far stronger than normal, like 3x stronger than normal with my flairing'. I am talking about having hours of that enhanced strength, burned all in one moment, giving them potentially THOUSANDS of times the strength and speed of them normally, all in once, draining all of their metal, focused on the point of a hammer designed to smash through shardplate. That will send them flying just as well, and it would hurt far more than that fall, and it would be so impactful that yes, they would have time to take that now spent pewter refill. Provided it landed correctly, which if they were on pewter, that should have made them graceful enough to land that...

Edited March 23, 2021 by AirsickAviar

[LewsTherinTelescope]

We do know that, generally, even decapitation will not stop Cosmere healing, though we don't know about Radiants specifically.

Quote

Logic_Nuke

Could decapitation kill a Gold Compounder? With a guillotine, for example?

Brandon Sanderson

Most forms of extreme cosmere healing don't care much what is done to the physical body, as the person's spiritual template is in power at the time.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 6, 2015)

[The Technovore he/him]

@AirsickAviar I like this analysis, it seems pretty even handed and points out something that's been largely overlooked. I think a couple rebuttals is that while stormlight without progression isn't the best healing ever(tm), like Frustration points out, it's pretty dang good. You and Frustration both mentioned Kaladin kicking the shardbearer. It shattered his legs, something that a mistborn can't recover from in a fight, but he was standing just a few seconds later. And the stabbing to the spine is more impressive than you'd think, because nervous system damage has far-reaching effects in the body and the body doesn't have resources for nerve damage like it does for normal flesh. It also completely restores limbs (Lopen) and shardblade wounds (Dabbid(?)) So that I think is the main thing for a Radiant. Also note that to use duralumin + pewter effectively you first have to reach the Radiant. Two orders can straight-up fly. Two-orders can disappear into the CR. Two orders might actually be able to shrug off such a hit (Progression), and two orders can throw up stone walls to block them off with ease.

I would also argue that:

33 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

It is possible that at 4th oath armor is reflexive but that has yet to be seen.

We have seen spren armor be reflexive. Kaladin used his armor to protect almost a whole squad of men from a barrage of attacks in RoW. I doubt a standard human or even a protagonist has the level of specific control required to be that fast and controlled in moving around sprenplate, so the spren themselves are doing some of the heavy lifting in the cognitive processing required to block incoming shots.

I would also speculate (this is JUST speculation) that it might be possible that each spren in a set of sprenplate can make any shape of plate. So if you shattered a Radiant's chestplate, it might just reform again at the expense of a more obscure piece of armor. So breaking armor pieces would wittle away their defenses, but it would take a lot longer to truly make them vulnerable. 

I could buy the argument that all the mental secondary effects that come with Allomancy would make a Mistborn agile and quick enough to not immediately die to a sprenblade, but remember that every move the Mistborn makes is also a move the Radiant is making. Depending on the order that would mean a swing of a sprenblade, a surge that could mean death or no more movement, or otherwise dodging. And again, two orders can straight up fly. That's trouble for any metalborn. 

33 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

How does a Radiant make a painrial projectile? How do they activate the pain giving of the painrial on their attempted target from a distance? How much stormlight does it consume? How besides luck do they hit someone who may be moving 100's of mph? How long does it take for the Rosharan interegator to build up the knowledge of the physical sciences for the basis they need to understand the Scadrian Technology? How much indepth scientific knowledge does a soldier from Scadrial have to extract? (Your are not going to send a Renett on a scouting mission).

Maybe I am ignorant but I have always seen the cutting ability of shardblades as a magical invested ability not a material ability since they don't actually cut living flesh so by touching the blade a Leecher might be able to nullify that aspect of a shardblades ability. It would also potentially lock the living blade into its current form. Of course it might reqiure the blade catching trick Kal learned. My basis is in the statement that Leechers can nullify abilities of invested weapons in the coppermind.

I'm not going to address everything from all that but I will address some of these. Radiants won't be making the projectiles, the folks at Urithiru will be, and we've already seen how capable they are at it. I can easily see the folks at Urithiru making a contraption where you can activate it without it hurting you, then flinging it away. It doesn't consume much, because Navani was able to leave lying around activated for quite a while in RoW. The trick for hitting steelrunners is for making sure they don't see it coming, but I can see a trap on the floor on something suddenly thrown in front of them taking them down, but you're right, it would just take luck, that was sort of the point, that it's improbable. I'm not sure what the comparing of Rosharan vs Scadrian science is about again, but I think it would be able equal since both technologies are pretty alien from each other, and while Scadrians are far ahead in earth tech, they're very far behind in the magical theories that Rosharans currently understand. (All it takes for either to close the gap is just to kidnap and interrogate the enemy's leading scientists imo.)

It's both a magical invested ability and a material ability. The material is godmetal, and as such has these properties as part of its heavily invested nature. Brandon has stated (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/13/#e5023) that leecher's can damage shardblades if they really worked at it, but that doesn't mean that they can nullify its powers. If a leecher touched a bead of Atium, could they remove it's magic properties? Probably not, but they could destroy it with time. A leecher could totally nullify a fabrial that requires stormlight to run, but godmetal is different. You're right though that if a leecher got ahold of a Radiant before they summoned the blade, the Radiant would be in trouble. Someone posted an idea of a leecher grabbing onto an unsuspecting Radiant and activating their chromium while stabbing--that would work easily on 3rd Oath Radiants, but if the Leecher broke contact and the Radiant summoned the blade, it's all over.

Finally, like @Frustration said, 4th oath Radiants are not as rare as Mistborn are. We see in the vision of Recreance that there were dozens of Radiants with sprenplate, and while 3rd oath Radiants outnumber them well, the great majority of experienced Radiants are 4th and 3rd oath. 2nd Oath is not the average, 3rd Oath is. If you want "rare as Mistborn", look at 5th Oath Radiants (which we don't yet know what boon that gives, but I'd reckon it's a big one.) So sure, not every Radiant is going to have the "I win" defense of sprenplate, but the "I win" offense of a sprenblade is basically standard.

Edited March 23, 2021 by The Technovore
Adjustment to my paragraph about leecher's and Shardblades

[Frustration]

9 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

Good correction on the 1080 feet tall, even though that wasn't nearly as tall as it was (it was clearly described as not a skyscraper, but enough where Adolin barely could be as tall as it's shin. So, 30-40ft range probably). 

Wait, your right, I've been reading Tiers but it says levels.

So with that they are actually closer to 60 feet, woops.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

9 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

Finally, like @Frustration said, 4th oath Radiants are not as rare as Mistborn are. We see in the vision of Recreance that there were dozens of Radiants with sprenplate, and while 3rd oath Radiants outnumber them well, the great majority of experienced Radiants are 4th and 3rd oath.

Something I'd note about the exact quote:

Quote

The others began to follow suit. Hundreds of men and women, driving Shardblades into the stone and then removing their Plate. The sound of metal hitting stone came like rain. Then like thunder.

There aren't just dozens of Radiants with Plate, there are hundreds, just at Feverstone Keep. (In fact, the scene doesn't describe any Radiants as having Blade but not Plate that I can see, though likely Dalinar missed a few in the crowd or I may have missed a description.)

Considering every single honorspren was bonded at the time, and presumably most of the other spren of other races that were going to be willing to bond had, it wouldn't shock me if most had had time to hit the Fourth, though certainly not all (see: the dude in the gemstone archive).

[The Technovore he/him]

1 minute ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Something I'd note about the exact quote:

There aren't just dozens of Radiants with Plate, there are hundreds, just at Feverstone Keep. (In fact, the scene doesn't describe any Radiants as having Blade but not Plate that I can see, though likely Dalinar missed a few in the crowd or I may have missed a description.)

Considering every single honorspren was bonded at the time, and presumably most of the other spren of other races that were going to be willing to bond had, it wouldn't shock me if most had had time to hit the Fourth, though certainly not all (see: the dude in the gemstone archive).

Heh, guess I'm WAY off then, fair enough (silly faulty memory, not working flawlessly after 3 years since last reading WoK)

[AirsickAviar he/him]

5 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

I like this analysis, it seems pretty even handed and points out something that's been largely overlooked. I think a couple rebuttals is that while stormlight without progression isn't the best healing ever(tm), like Frustration points out, it's pretty dang good. You and Frustration both mentioned Kaladin kicking the shardbearer. It shattered his legs, something that a mistborn can't recover from in a fight, but he was standing just a few seconds later. And the stabbing to the spine is more impressive than you'd think, because nervous system damage has far-reaching effects in the body and the body doesn't have resources for nerve damage like it does for normal flesh. It also completely restores limbs (Lopen) and shardblade wounds (Dabbid(?)) So that I think is the main thing for a Radiant. Also note that to use duralumin + pewter effectively you first have to reach the Radiant. Two orders can straight-up fly. Two-orders can disappear into the CR. Two orders might actually be able to shrug off such a hit (Progression), and two orders can throw up stone walls to block them off with ease.

Vs most radiants, it is enough to end the fight when applied properly, and I have faith in the pewter reflexes + steel abilities to put them in the correct position far more than not, in the hands of a veteran mistborn to land it. While it is true, using their legs would shatter them, as pointed out, they don't need to use their legs. This becomes a battle of two with battle breaking attacks that will end it if either side lands it. Hence, my 50/50 estimate vs the 4th oath, with the edge only going to mistborns in the battle of veterans, who know what they are up against, and know how to exploit that ability.

Also, failing to see your point on the Two orders that can straight up fly... Since I was on a conversation on full mistborns, I would point out that Mistborns might as well fly into, what did they like to call it in 2e Scadrial? Ah right, 'The Ascendant's fields'. Aka, the sky. The best of them are completely one with the sky in description, especially with all that pewter enhancing their senses and agility to a level that I do believe in these contexts, are usually described as better than the simple stormlight consumption. That being said, I don't think your average mistborn is anywhere near as good in the air as Vin was, or even Elend. But then again, seeing the descriptions of the battles between skybreakers, windrunners and fuzed, it is clear to me that your average windrunner or skybreaker is also no where seemless as good as Kaladin in the air, much less the fuzed with thousands of years of practice.

If the Skybreaker or Windrunner is of the fourth oath, and are actually running into the sky, I would imagine the best option would be to use something like coinshot + duralamin, hitting far harder than a gun blast. It might not break the plate, but over time I could see it doing that. And enough to make them try and commit instead of just running. With practice, having that extra pewter handy when they get angry enough, and then you can end up using your reflexes and landing that critical blow of many thousands of times the strength of a human blow, with a very powerful weapon.

As for the orders than can escape in the CR. Not sure how that helps them 'win the fight'. It is much harder getting back. Leaving in this case might as well be a win for the mistborns.

And if you go by the two orders who might 'survive such a hit', as the ones who win this fight more often than not, I would counter those are the two that the mistborn can simply fly, where the truthwatchers/edgedancers can not, while eventually the mistborn just pounds them into submission, as mentioned, it should be possible over time. Enough duralamin, and enough projectiles and strong enough anchors. And if in a battle, the destruction of the mistborn should far exceed that of those two if they were then trying to win that battle for either side, with neither side in the end being able to effectively kill the other, I would give the supporting edge to the flying monster. Which I think is the huge advantage the mistborn has over every other order but the two flying ones comes to think of it...

Making a stone wall will probably only protect you, but it wouldn't win you the fight either. Seeing the example of mistborns in simple traps like that, I don't think you would contain them. All the while, they are still flying around.

So in the end, you get maybe the bondsmith, if he can somehow still/neutralize the mistborn's power. Or maybe soulcasting, if it is as purely lethal as 'just from long distance, transform the air around them into lethal ash'. But somehow, I don't think it is going to be that valuable.

 

 

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

As for the orders than can escape in the CR. Not sure how that helps them 'win the fight'. It is much harder getting back. Leaving in this case might as well be a win for the mistborns.

Eslecallers can soulcast form the CR,

3 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

Making a stone wall will probably only protect you, but it wouldn't win you the fight either. Seeing the example of mistborns in simple traps like that, I don't think you would contain them. All the while, they are still flying around.

Stone is more than enough to immobilize MIstborn, one of the reasons I support Radiants so heavily was how easily Vin was captured in HoA.

[AirsickAviar he/him]

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Eslecallers can soulcast form the CR,

And Lightweavers, but not nearly as naturally as elsecallers, the lords of the CR where the radiants are concerned. I forgot about that. But in the case of veterancy, and they just disappeared in the cognitive, I would imagine the mistborn would simply fly away, at speeds the radiant could not catch up with. Ie "if they are going to sit where I cannot get to them and attack, I will get to some place they will not easily find me to soulcast weapons against me". And they could do that plenty fast enough in this battle where both know each other's abilities.

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Stone is more than enough to immobilize MIstborn, one of the reasons I support Radiants so heavily was how easily Vin was captured in HoA

Going to point out two things here, the first 'one of the reasons I support the radiants so heavily', I would add, even if you can prove one order at 4th oath does have a decided edge, which I think might even have the advantage the depending on the powers of elsecallers and bondsmiths, at best you are only proving a smaller subset, much less than the majority of the Radiants at the fourth oath, have an advantage. That in fact, does not prove Radiants stronger at that level. Only some of them.

Second, are you trying to say stonewards create stone, or would come from the stone itself and surprise them? A smart mistborn would be gliding at least a little in the air vs a stoneward anyway to begin with. Or do you mean an elsecaller soulcasting the air to stone? Then that goes back to my first point there.

Edited March 23, 2021 by AirsickAviar