Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

Frustration · March 11, 2021

26 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Present the hypothetical situation where the agent faces a bondsmith (at a disadvantage in combat alone) who is at the current level. I think Dalinar is at the 2nd or 3rd oath, and we don't know what it will mean at the 4th oath beyond him maybe having shardplate, but he wont have a shardblade and may never get shardplate. Stormfather told him combat is not where he will excel on his own. He opens a perpendicularity and the Agent stores the investiture for himself for his own use. The aluminum armor would block the attempt to steal connection from the agent as well. Oh and we haven't seen what is possible on Scadrial yet either.

Wearing aluminum would prevent storing of exterior investiture.

And Wax has no way to determin if more force is added, as measuing the speed at which it launched is incredible difficult to do with that tech level, however, pushing heavier objects would make it seem like more force.

you still haven't answered my win scenario.

52 minutes ago, Frustration said:

EDIT:

I'm really getting tired of this so I'm going end it

This requires three people and Scandrial dies,

Odium would win against Harmony

Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Does Odium actually present a real threat to Harmony, because he-- *interrupted*

Brandon Sanderson

So Harmony is vastly more powerful than Odium.

Questioner

Yeah.

Brandon Sanderson

Elend was vastly more powerful than Vin. Who would win in a fight?

Questioner

Vin.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, there's your answer.

White Sand vol.1 release party (June 28, 2016)

So Odium comes, kills Sazed, a Bondsmith forms a bond between another person and Ruin,

that person acsends, Ruin's Scandrial and then lays down the shard, and Odium splinters it.

Game Over.

Edited March 11, 2021 by Frustration

The Technovore · March 11, 2021

I love the Metalborn magic system, really it's amazing, but Mistborn doesn't have a plot point around metalborn potentially cracking their planet. Ishar the Bondsmith and the ancient surgebinders tore Ashyn apart, and while Dalinar the Bondsmith isn't likely to do such destructive things with his powers, Navani is very likely to test the limits of the Radiant's newly unchained surges. It's literally an SA plot point that they might end up cracking Roshar.

It's also a plot point that Stormlight may be able to get transported off planet, and see in the First of the Dawn sequel that they've succeeded (i.e. the Skybreaker loads some form of energy pack into his new ShardRifle that is very very likely Stormlight).

Scadrial's only hope is to make sure they never have to set foot on Radiant home turf (Roshar), and that the Rosharans never figure out how to take their planet-cracking powers to Scadrial, which is why Thaidakar is meddling so hard in RoW.

Give all those plot-points 10 to 15 years to develop (remember, it only took a year and a half to go from "Oaths sworn" to "Everstorm created" to "Anti-Light discovered"), and you have a big potential problem for Scadrial. Any offensive Scadrial makes on Roshar is doomed, even with espionage knowledge, because in 10 to 15 years more spren will be bonded, Radiants will be more practiced and more powerful, and more incredible fabrial tech and Investiture theory will be discovered.

Any offensive Roshar makes on Scadrial would be very costly indeed, but Scadrial has exactly 0 experience with large-scale combat situations and guns don't make up for lack of military discipline when the enemy has flying, shape-shifting, destructive, energized, planet-crackers on their side. I wouldn't say Roshar wins no matter what, but there's a reason why Thaidakar is so concerned with Roshar. It's a massive threat to the Cosmere at large if they manage to take their powers off-world.

therunner · March 12, 2021

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

No it is a physical fact that increases in velocity equal increases in mass. As you fall into a black hole you do become more massive, for that matter as you fall toward the earth your mass also increases just not by much. Only once your acceleration is halted does mass stabilize like when you are standing on the ground or in a set orbit around earth. The observer effect has to do with relativistic time. Even then as your velocity through space increases your velocity through time decreases. All things in the universe travel at the speed of light, but why we don't realize it is because most of that velocity is through the dimension of time not space.

No, what is physical fact is that total energy increases with velocity (because it is not an invariant). You can than choose to interpret that it means mass increases, however that is problematic when you invoke gravity (i.e. within general relativity), as that would imply moving object fast enough could turn it into a black hole, violating basic principle of general relativity (because to someone moving with the object, it is at rest, its energy did not increase and so it did not turn into black hole -> now you have a problem, one person claims "There is a black hole here!" and the other one doesnt.).

When you are falling your mass does not increase, as you are in free-fall which is equivalent to being at rest (this is the most basic principle of general relativity), so your mass is just your rest mass. I am aware that four-velocity is constant, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what is being talked about.

So again, increase in velocity actually does not lead to increase in gravitational mass.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

The wood of the floor that Wax crashed through in his home would have caused scrapes, cuts, and other such injuries if he didn't have some degree of greater resistance to piercing damage even if he didn't realize that happened. He already suspected that his bones and muscles were stronger to deal with the extra weight and when he has been shot he hasn't tapped enough weight to make a noticeable difference in the bullets penetration. It is also logical that bones which are denser than tissue increase density proportionally faster as Wax increases weight.

That still ignores the fact that Marasi was also uninjured, despite not tapping iron. Your statement goes both against what Wax states, and what Brandon himself stated was his intention.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

In comparing Rosharan magic vs Scadrian magic the only place where Radiants have any chance of winning at this time is on Roshar, whereas at this time Scadrian's magic can operate on any planet in the Cosmere at this time. So any conflict between them would need to take place on Roshar. A likely scenario would be if Era 2 Scadrial got wind of a potential buildup of a Rosharan invasion force. Not knowing what they could be facing in the future when Roshar overcomes their system quarantine the Scadrian government sends a highly trained Thugbearer to scout out Roshar. To be prepared they arm him or her with aluminum alloy armor and weapons including revolvers, a carbine, bayonet and muscle powered vehicle like a bike since fuel could be an issue. The agent would be supplied with haze killer and aluminum ammunition to fit their firearms, and the firearms would be of the same caliber for simplicity sake most likely along the lines of a .44 caliber like old west rifles and pistols. They also provide the agent with an ample supply of pewter and Nicrosil bands both internal and external. The directive would be to infiltrate Roshar, assess capabilities, weapons, and tactics, and return with the intelligence. As they travel to Roshar they take the opportunity to fill their metal minds with pewter enhanced abilities. The agent reaches a Radiant base without detection, but as they attempt to observe they get detected by a 4th ideal Skybreaker who attempts to intercept them summoning full plate and blade. With only the 2 of them there and the Skybreakers obviously hostile intention the Thugbearer sets his bayonet, taps agility, and fires a thug round which bounces off the chest of the armor. The Skybreaker attempts a ranged division attack meant to burn off the armor but to his surprise the armor repels it. Tapping speed the Thugbearer quickly changes rounds to incendiary rounds, and tapping agility again targets the Skybreakers armor joints striking him in the shoulder. With a massive flare from the round the Skybreaker is knocked from the sky with a burning wound to the bone. He sees the Skybreaker get up radiating wisps of light and in moments is healed. The Skybreaker lashes himself forward at high speed to attack with his shardblade, but the Soulbearer taps massive strength and blocks the attack with his bayonet but the carbine gets damaged, then with Feruchemical speed and strength he repulses the Knight, draws a revolver and with enhanced agility fires the aluminum incendiary round into the gap between helmet and armor dropping the knight with yet another explosive round only this time the area is not healing. As the Skybreaker tries to deal with the intense burning pain without healing the thugbearer takes his bayonet and decapitates him. He walks away back to his observation post to get a shovel to hide the knights body while he burns pewter to renew his metal mind and resumes observing the potential enemies.

Your scenario relies also relies on four things:

1) That somehow, the Thugbearer would be ideally equipped to fight Radiants on a recon mission to gather information about Radiants? The ability to equip him that ideally would imply they are already aware of some abilities and limitations of Radiants.

2) That F-nicrosil allows storage of kinetic investiture + ability to somehow divide that investiture into different abilities. The second part is not as crucial, but the first one is very important.

3) That aluminum alloys are equally resistive to cutting effects of shardblades as pure aluminum. While some alloys of aluminum are allomantically inert (i.e. some bullets used in Era 2), that does not necessarily imply that alloy would have the same effect in other magic systems. Also even if they are, someone in Shardplate is stronger then a Thug (unless they tapped large part of their reserves, but why would they do that if they do not know what shardplate is and does?) so they Skybreaker would most likely overpower Thugbearer, unless they reacted fast enough.

4) Existence of gap between helmet and armour, which most likely does not exist for the living armour. (even dead plate can seal the visor and shape itself around user, why would there be a gap allowing such easy kill?)

Edited March 12, 2021 by therunner
spelling

therunner · March 12, 2021

Sorry for double post, forgot to reply to this.

18 hours ago, Frustration said:

Only thing is, Wax is above them at the time, so his weight is going to be applied downwards, if you're holding something above your head and it tripples in weight then you probably have to put it down, or drop it all together, it wasn't that the force you were exerting to hold it up got weaker, it was that the force needed to hold it up became greater.

In other words, the force of the push didn't have to change, he was simply harder to move than the nails.

So you argue that if he was pushing on something on the same level as he (so horizontally, not vertically) it would not have the same effect? That is a good point, and I could see that being the case. There might be counterexamples in the books, but I have not read them in a while, so I cannot tell.

Bigmikey357 · March 12, 2021

@BenduLuke

Let me get this straight regarding the scenario you posted. You got some short foreign guy walking around on Roshar with aluminum armor and a bunch of devices unrecognizable to any of the inhabitants of the planet and expect him to be inconspicuous? And unless he has a spare Elsecaller working with him he can only transition to the Physical Realm through Cultivation's perpendicularity in the Peaks. That transition point is of course under water and guarded by the inhabitants. Your Scadrian agent has to bring himself and all this equipment through and remain undetected through several weeks of travel just to arrive at the fight scenario you proposed. He has to do this in a weakened state in order to store the attributes he'll need to survive whatever fights he engages in.

Now on to the fight itself. If the guy manages to achieve several impossible things he gets to be a pewterarm with F-Steel and F-Nicrosil, I suppose through the use of medallions. He has guns that have somehow survived being dunked in the lake. The armor is aluminum as are the rounds, are the weapons aluminum too? Does he even know what a Skybreaker is? What is his intel on Rosharan magic? Speed is a bit OP but it runs out. Are you proposing that the Nicrosil bands are recharging off Stormlight and converting it to something a metal born can use? Scadrial figured out investiture conversion on a magic system they haven't seen? And what about the different air chemistry, most notably the extra oxygen? Those guns become essentially useless on Roshar because they're going to blow up in the hands of the operator as soon as fired even if they survive the lake. I freely admit that none of this is making any sense to me, no offense meant. Because here's the thing. Even if he somehow wins that fight, even if he makes it to that fight, he fails the mission and never transmits that information to Scadrial. And Roshar learns a whole lot more about their opponent, thus making a Rosharan victory much more likely.

Gisaku75 · March 12, 2021

13 hours ago, The Technovore said:

I love the Metalborn magic system, really it's amazing, but Mistborn doesn't have a plot point around metalborn potentially cracking their planet. Ishar the Bondsmith and the ancient surgebinders tore Ashyn apart, and while Dalinar the Bondsmith isn't likely to do such destructive things with his powers, Navani is very likely to test the limits of the Radiant's newly unchained surges. It's literally an SA plot point that they might end up cracking Roshar.

It's also a plot point that Stormlight may be able to get transported off planet, and see in the First of the Dawn sequel that they've succeeded (i.e. the Skybreaker loads some form of energy pack into his new ShardRifle that is very very likely Stormlight).

Scadrial's only hope is to make sure they never have to set foot on Radiant home turf (Roshar), and that the Rosharans never figure out how to take their planet-cracking powers to Scadrial, which is why Thaidakar is meddling so hard in RoW.

Give all those plot-points 10 to 15 years to develop (remember, it only took a year and a half to go from "Oaths sworn" to "Everstorm created" to "Anti-Light discovered"), and you have a big potential problem for Scadrial. Any offensive Scadrial makes on Roshar is doomed, even with espionage knowledge, because in 10 to 15 years more spren will be bonded, Radiants will be more practiced and more powerful, and more incredible fabrial tech and Investiture theory will be discovered.

Any offensive Roshar makes on Scadrial would be very costly indeed, but Scadrial has exactly 0 experience with large-scale combat situations and guns don't make up for lack of military discipline when the enemy has flying, shape-shifting, destructive, energized, planet-crackers on their side. I wouldn't say Roshar wins no matter what, but there's a reason why Thaidakar is so concerned with Roshar. It's a massive threat to the Cosmere at large if they manage to take their powers off-world.

At the end of BoM it turns out that on scadrial there is a civilization that has been building flying ships for decades and has already developed something very similar to an atomic warhead. 10 15 years Scadrial can develop weapons capable of annihilating an army of radiants from miles away. Elendel Basin already has cannons, gatlings and the first cars, in 10 15 years they can develop tanks and machine guns. Not to mention the mass production of Unkeyed metalmind and medallions. However, the number of Radiant is limited. Scadrial can field tens of thousands of super soldiers and weapons capable of smashing shardplates in one shot.

Bigmikey357 · March 12, 2021

4 minutes ago, Gisaku75 said:

At the end of BoM it turns out that on scadrial there is a civilization that has been building flying ships for decades and has already developed something very similar to an atomic warhead. 10 15 years Scadrial can develop weapons capable of annihilating an army of radiants from miles away. Elendel Basin already has cannons, gatlings and the first cars, in 10 15 years they can develop tanks and machine guns. Not to mention the mass production of Unkeyed metalmind and medallions. However, the number of Radiant is limited. Scadrial can field tens of thousands of super soldiers and weapons capable of smashing shardplates in one shot.

That is until Roshar figures out Harmony's tone and makes the Ettmetal mute with antiharmony.

Gisaku75 · March 12, 2021

14 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

That is until Roshar figures out Harmony's tone and makes the Ettmetal mute with antiharmony.

Yes, and in the meantime, the Ghost Bloods may have recovered the same technology and allowed Scadrial to build bullets capable of killing the spren and rendering the radiant harmless.

ScadrianTank · March 12, 2021

1 minute ago, Bigmikey357 said:

That is until Roshar figures out Harmony's tone and makes the Ettmetal mute with antiharmony.

That might be challenging depending on what Harmony is. Sazed said several times that he holds Ruin and Preservation, while we know from WoBs that Harmony is now a single Shard. RoW made me think that Harmony's problem is that he is trying to balance two types of Investiture that are so opposite to each other that they are almost Anti-Investiture. My point is that if a Shard is incapable of finding its internal harmony (like Warlight and Towerlight), people may find it difficult to create its opposite.

Frustration · March 12, 2021

43 minutes ago, Gisaku75 said:

At the end of BoM it turns out that on scadrial there is a civilization that has been building flying ships for decades and has already developed something very similar to an atomic warhead. 10 15 years Scadrial can develop weapons capable of annihilating an army of radiants from miles away. Elendel Basin already has cannons, gatlings and the first cars, in 10 15 years they can develop tanks and machine guns. Not to mention the mass production of Unkeyed metalmind and medallions. However, the number of Radiant is limited. Scadrial can field tens of thousands of super soldiers and weapons capable of smashing shardplates in one shot.

1. Scandrial is progressing incredibly slowly, so it will take them a longer time than you think to get there.

2. Radiants are something Metalborn aren't, replaceable.

3. Scandrial's communication is hundreds of times slower than Roshar's so Roshar will be far faster at mobilizing.

Gisaku75 · March 12, 2021

20 minutes ago, Frustration said:

1. Scandrial is progressing incredibly slowly, so it will take them a longer time than you think to get there.

2. Radiants are something Metalborn aren't, replaceable.

3. Scandrial's communication is hundreds of times slower than Roshar's so Roshar will be far faster at mobilizing.

1 Roshar has been stuck in the Middle Ages for at least two thousand years and has only recently begun to change. But education is still a privilege of a few and all goods are built in an artisanal way. Scarial went from the Middle Ages to the Industrial Era in 300 years. It is backward by Sazed's expectations not compared to Roshar. It is already several centuries ahead of Roshar in all fields. It has universities open to all, factories and mass production so it can potentially develop much faster than Roshar. And the people of the south are even more advanced.

2 Radiant ones are limited by the number of spen and if one dies the spren must find another person who swears at least 3 oaths before being a threat. With the medallions I can create as many metalborns as I want.

3 Wayne's protege theorized about radio waves and a telegraph system already exists. So spanreed do not represent an insurmountable advantage.

Bejarden · March 12, 2021

24 minutes ago, Frustration said:

3. Scandrial's communication is hundreds of times slower than Roshar's so Roshar will be far faster at mobilizing.

It would take them very little time to steal/make a spanread

Theres nothing that hard to make on them

The Technovore · March 12, 2021

5 hours ago, Gisaku75 said:

At the end of BoM it turns out that on scadrial there is a civilization that has been building flying ships for decades and has already developed something very similar to an atomic warhead. 10 15 years Scadrial can develop weapons capable of annihilating an army of radiants from miles away. Elendel Basin already has cannons, gatlings and the first cars, in 10 15 years they can develop tanks and machine guns. Not to mention the mass production of Unkeyed metalmind and medallions. However, the number of Radiant is limited. Scadrial can field tens of thousands of super soldiers and weapons capable of smashing shardplates in one shot.

Right so, you're making a *small* mistake, and that's in the timeline. We know that Era 2 lines up closely with SA 10. Between SA 5 and 6 there's a 10 year gap, and then a possible 2 to 5 years in the back 5 books (the front 5 so far have been about 2 to 3 years.)

Which means that RoW Roshar occurs 10 to 15 years before Era 2 Scad. Time is on Roshar's side. You make the case that Roshar is centuries behind but its brightest minds aren't. Radiants are working with ancient beings all the time--spren, Heralds, Godspren, Fused, etc., and their abilities have the power to disrupt and expand commercial tech a long way--and they have the R&D of Stark Industries over at Urithiru that's literally in the process of replicating surges through Fabrials. Give all that 10 years and you potentially have a very scary planet facing up against a Scadrial that's had virtually no time to unlock their medallion and SoScad tech. There is no mass production of metalminds, or TerrisBlades and Plate, before Roshar already has their own "Unkeyed Surges" up and running and their own war doctrine highly advanced. So your concept of a competent, fully armed, well developed Scadrial prepared for war is not viable given the timelines.

4 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

It would take them very little time to steal/make a spanread

Theres nothing that hard to make on them

I mean, sure, the mechanics themselves are simple, but you need stormlight to make it work, and you need the gemstones. We don't know about the state of gemstone manufacturing on Scadrial, so it may or may not be viable, but the stormlight would pose a problem. And I think if spanreeds can be stolen and reverse-engineered, it wouldn't take long for Navani and her army of scholars to do the same for guns (although, whether they can get working and reliable prototypes while the war is still going is another question... perhaps if they kidnapped Renette...)

Quote

Yes, and in the meantime, the Ghost Bloods may have recovered the same technology and allowed Scadrial to build bullets capable of killing the spren and rendering the radiant harmless.

I mean... sure but... that's asking for a lot of accuracy for that era of guns--most spren don't walk around full-size and for humans they can't be easily found inside the body... not to mention they don't necessarily have to be manifesting in the Physical Realm, although that may be different for Bonded spren. Idk, seems possible, but not... really plausible? At least for most spren.

Edited March 12, 2021 by The Technovore

BenduLuke · March 12, 2021

21 hours ago, The Technovore said:

I love the Metalborn magic system, really it's amazing, but Mistborn doesn't have a plot point around metalborn potentially cracking their planet. Ishar the Bondsmith and the ancient surgebinders tore Ashyn apart, and while Dalinar the Bondsmith isn't likely to do such destructive things with his powers, Navani is very likely to test the limits of the Radiant's newly unchained surges. It's literally an SA plot point that they might end up cracking Roshar.

It's also a plot point that Stormlight may be able to get transported off planet, and see in the First of the Dawn sequel that they've succeeded (i.e. the Skybreaker loads some form of energy pack into his new ShardRifle that is very very likely Stormlight).

Scadrial's only hope is to make sure they never have to set foot on Radiant home turf (Roshar), and that the Rosharans never figure out how to take their planet-cracking powers to Scadrial, which is why Thaidakar is meddling so hard in RoW.

Give all those plot-points 10 to 15 years to develop (remember, it only took a year and a half to go from "Oaths sworn" to "Everstorm created" to "Anti-Light discovered"), and you have a big potential problem for Scadrial. Any offensive Scadrial makes on Roshar is doomed, even with espionage knowledge, because in 10 to 15 years more spren will be bonded, Radiants will be more practiced and more powerful, and more incredible fabrial tech and Investiture theory will be discovered.

Any offensive Roshar makes on Scadrial would be very costly indeed, but Scadrial has exactly 0 experience with large-scale combat situations and guns don't make up for lack of military discipline when the enemy has flying, shape-shifting, destructive, energized, planet-crackers on their side. I wouldn't say Roshar wins no matter what, but there's a reason why Thaidakar is so concerned with Roshar. It's a massive threat to the Cosmere at large if they manage to take their powers off-world.

Those might be plot points but they are nowhere near actualization at this point, and I don't think Ishar or any of the Heralds were around for the planet breaking surges, that came much earlier.

At this point Rosharans can't access their magic anywhere else.

Odium took thousands of years to create the everstorm it had nothing to do with Rosharan tech, it wasn't even singer tech. In addition Oaths are not tech. When we compare Rosharan and Scadrian magic systems we are comparing Summoning (conjuration) magic with Alchemical magic respectively. As such one of the weaknesses to Summoning magic is counter the spirits or demons you counter the magic, but there isn't anti alchemy.

At this point any Rosharan attack on Scadrial would be without magic, but any incursion from Scadrial on Roshar would have full access to their magic and technology since they both work everywhere. It is a mistake to assume Scadrial has not military just because that is not highlighted yet. Roshar does not have planet crackers yet either, but Scadrial does have tech to counter all of Roshar's magical abilities already.

11 hours ago, therunner said:

No, what is physical fact is that total energy increases with velocity (because it is not an invariant). You can than choose to interpret that it means mass increases, however that is problematic when you invoke gravity (i.e. within general relativity), as that would imply moving object fast enough could turn it into a black hole, violating basic principle of general relativity (because to someone moving with the object, it is at rest, its energy did not increase and so it did not turn into black hole -> now you have a problem, one person claims "There is a black hole here!" and the other one doesnt.).

When you are falling your mass does not increase, as you are in free-fall which is equivalent to being at rest (this is the most basic principle of general relativity), so your mass is just your rest mass. I am aware that four-velocity is constant, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what is being talked about.

So again, increase in velocity actually does not lead to increase in gravitational mass.

That still ignores the fact that Marasi was also uninjured, despite not tapping iron. Your statement goes both against what Wax states, and what Brandon himself stated was his intention.

Your scenario relies also relies on four things:

1) That somehow, the Thugbearer would be ideally equipped to fight Radiants on a recon mission to gather information about Radiants? The ability to equip him that ideally would imply they are already aware of some abilities and limitations of Radiants.

2) That F-nicrosil allows storage of kinetic investiture + ability to somehow divide that investiture into different abilities. The second part is not as crucial, but the first one is very important.

3) That aluminum alloys are equally resistive to cutting effects of shardblades as pure aluminum. While some alloys of aluminum are allomantically inert (i.e. some bullets used in Era 2), that does not necessarily imply that alloy would have the same effect in other magic systems. Also even if they are, someone in Shardplate is stronger then a Thug (unless they tapped large part of their reserves, but why would they do that if they do not know what shardplate is and does?) so they Skybreaker would most likely overpower Thugbearer, unless they reacted fast enough.

4) Existence of gap between helmet and armour, which most likely does not exist for the living armour. (even dead plate can seal the visor and shape itself around user, why would there be a gap allowing such easy kill?)

Yes as you fall toward the surface of a planet or star your mass increases. There isn't observer bias in this.

Marasi was dragged through the floor on top of Wax so he took the force of his crashing through the floor then he flipped over and drastically reduced mass as they fell to prevent them being crushed and to shield her which is why she wasn't injured. The discrepancy with Wax's statement is in regard to his perception not the reality, and as for Brandon he has yet to actually address the extremes of Iron-F, but on the scales he has used it the effects have been consistent with what he has stated so far.

The Thugbearer is Ideally equipped to deal with virtually any type of investiture in general because of Scadrian Tech and material magic science not for knowledge of what that investiture could do.

Yes I am assuming that Soulbearers can store any form of investiture including kinetic since at this point the description says so. I am also projecting based on how Windwhisper feruchemy works to divide senses that the Soulbearer would also be able to do that though as you seem to have noticed that is technically unnecessary.

Some alloys of Aluminum are stronger than hardened steel and Shardblades ability to cut is dependent on investiture in the blade providing the edge, but Aluminum alloys cannot be cut by investiture. In the Aluminum coppermind it does say the alloys do have the effect of it on things like invested healing.

You may note that in the scenerio I created the Agent saw that the shardplate was resistant to damage on the first shot as well as seeing some degree of physical strength in the knight. Remember Pewter comes with a degree of increased speed, reflexes, balance, durability, and healing along with the strength and if tapped feruchemically as it was provides for necessary reaction speed and accuracy to counter the knight.

There must be a gap between helmet and armor or the knight wouldn't be able to turn their head or look around. It would be small but bullets aren't large and a person with pewter enhanced abilities would have the accuracy to take advantage of it. Oh and the knight would be surprised that the Agent's armor is resistant to his surges and shardblade.

8 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

@BenduLuke

Let me get this straight regarding the scenario you posted. You got some short foreign guy walking around on Roshar with aluminum armor and a bunch of devices unrecognizable to any of the inhabitants of the planet and expect him to be inconspicuous? And unless he has a spare Elsecaller working with him he can only transition to the Physical Realm through Cultivation's perpendicularity in the Peaks. That transition point is of course under water and guarded by the inhabitants. Your Scadrian agent has to bring himself and all this equipment through and remain undetected through several weeks of travel just to arrive at the fight scenario you proposed. He has to do this in a weakened state in order to store the attributes he'll need to survive whatever fights he engages in.

Now on to the fight itself. If the guy manages to achieve several impossible things he gets to be a pewterarm with F-Steel and F-Nicrosil, I suppose through the use of medallions. He has guns that have somehow survived being dunked in the lake. The armor is aluminum as are the rounds, are the weapons aluminum too? Does he even know what a Skybreaker is? What is his intel on Rosharan magic? Speed is a bit OP but it runs out. Are you proposing that the Nicrosil bands are recharging off Stormlight and converting it to something a metal born can use? Scadrial figured out investiture conversion on a magic system they haven't seen? And what about the different air chemistry, most notably the extra oxygen? Those guns become essentially useless on Roshar because they're going to blow up in the hands of the operator as soon as fired even if they survive the lake. I freely admit that none of this is making any sense to me, no offense meant. Because here's the thing. Even if he somehow wins that fight, even if he makes it to that fight, he fails the mission and never transmits that information to Scadrial. And Roshar learns a whole lot more about their opponent, thus making a Rosharan victory much more likely.

Alright in order for this fight to take place where both have access to their magical abilities at this point it has to take place on Roshar, and the most likely group to initiate an attack are Odium's forces. Since at this time we know that Skybreakers are part of that I started with one of them who is at the highest imaginable level we are aware of. No I didn't address how or where the agent got onto Scadrial, but it could just as easily been through an oath gate under some circumstances. No he doesn't need to be weakened, he just needs to have been burning pewter during his trip and storing those investiture enhanced abilities during his trip. Pewter burns slow so he could store allot of enhanced abilities over the trip.

Not F-steel, A-Pewter speed along with all the other pewter enhanced abilities. Soulbearers are F-Nicrosil. Thugbearer is a combinations A-Pewter F-Nicrosil. Yes his weapons are aluminum.

No the aluminum armor blocks the investiture the Agent might possibly absorb from any stormlight surges. (Thanks for the idea that a Soulbearer might be able to convert investiture used against him into fueling their allamantic abilities if any). No he is running off the stored investiture from his pewter. He doesn't need to know what a Skybreaker is because his pewter enhanced abilities would enable him to react to the Skybreaker effectively. Extra Oxygen would actually make the firearms more effective and increase his native physical abilities. I know that because having lived in the high mountains most of my life when I went traveled to an area at sea level I had much more energy and endurance than normal because of the higher Oxygen levels. Oh and cartridges from Scadrial still have Scadrian atmosphere in them because cartridges are air tight. The difference would also not be substantial enough to cause explosions either.

2 hours ago, The Technovore said:

Right so, you're making a *small* mistake, and that's in the timeline. We know that Era 2 lines up closely with SA 10. Between SA 5 and 6 there's a 10 year gap, and then a possible 2 to 5 years in the back 5 books (the front 5 so far have been about 2 to 3 years.)

Which means that RoW Roshar occurs 10 to 15 years before Era 2 Scad. Time is on Roshar's side. You make the case that Roshar is centuries behind but its brightest minds aren't. Radiants are working with ancient beings all the time--spren, Heralds, Godspren, Fused, etc., and their abilities have the power to disrupt and expand commercial tech a long way--and they have the R&D of Stark Industries over at Urithiru that's literally in the process of replicating surges through Fabrials. Give all that 10 years and you potentially have a very scary planet facing up against a Scadrial that's had virtually no time to unlock their medallion and SoScad tech. There is no mass production of metalminds, or TerrisBlades and Plate, before Roshar already has their own "Unkeyed Surges" up and running and their own war doctrine highly advanced. So your concept of a competent, fully armed, well developed Scadrial prepared for war is not viable given the timelines.

I mean, sure, the mechanics themselves are simple, but you need stormlight to make it work, and you need the gemstones. We don't know about the state of gemstone manufacturing on Scadrial, so it may or may not be viable, but the stormlight would pose a problem. And I think if spanreeds can be stolen and reverse-engineered, it wouldn't take long for Navani and her army of scholars to do the same for guns (although, whether they can get working and reliable prototypes while the war is still going is another question... perhaps if they kidnapped Renette...)

I mean... sure but... that's asking for a lot of accuracy for that era of guns--most spren don't walk around full-size and for humans they can't be easily found inside the body... not to mention they don't necessarily have to be manifesting in the Physical Realm, although that may be different for Bonded spren. Idk, seems possible, but not... really plausible? At least for most spren.

Look we wont actually know what the time differences are until the two planets cross paths so all we can go on is what the most recent information on each is. No we really don't have stark industries at Urithiru, but we might be close to that somewhere on Scadrial. Scadrial is industrial, and Roshar is not. Actually it would be more like Edison's labs on Scadrial, and on Roshar more like Davinci's studio though perhaps at a slightly lower level of Technology.

Navani and her scholars don't have chemistry basis on which to reverse engineer firearms or explosives, but reverse engineering the fabrial tech would be easy with the technomagical science of Scadrial. The singers with no tech learned to capture spren on which all fabrial tech is based. Stormlight isn't a problem since it is renewed each Highstorm. Cataloging gem effects to duplicate fabrials not difficult for Scadrian tech. Scadrial has a much more comprihensive understanding of metals so would quickly outpace what Rosharan fabrials could do.

Bigmikey357 · March 13, 2021

@BenduLuke

1. Pewter does not burn slow, in fact it's the fastest burning of the 8 basic metals. There are only 2 metals that burn faster in the text, atium and bendalloy.

2. A-Pewter abilities cannot be separated as you seem to suggest. It doesn't even work like that using F-Pewter. You can do that with F-Tin but we aren't speaking of that.

3. A person holding Stormlight has their dexterity boosted about as much as someone burning Pewter. That same person in living Plate will be much stronger.

4. While I agree that F-Nicrosil will make your agent better equipped to make their pewter supplies last much longer than normal I am pretty sure that it's not a simple matter to convert stormlight into investiture usable by a metal born. Ghostbloods wouldn't be trying to kidnap Heralds if conversion were that simple.

5. The oxygen composition may help the agent physically but it will be absolutely ruinous on his weapons. The bullet casing might be air tight but the chamber of the weapon most certainly is not. Guns are made to contain and redirect explosive force within certain tolerances, above which they fail catastrophically. When you plug up a gun barrel it explodes because the force of the explosion far exceeds what the weapon is made to contain. Firing a Scadrian gun on Roshar makes that chemical reaction more energetic. When the gun fires that explosion will be beyond tolerance, guaranteed. You may get one shot off, maybe even two. They'll be wildly inaccurate but it may fire. After that either the barrel is ruined or the chamber is. Lose integrity in either and the best outcome is a simple misfire. Worse case? Boom.

6. Armor, no matter how light or flexible, restricts movement and slows reaction. The agent must account for this, for no matter how strong or dexterous he is he still is less dexterous and fast as he would be without 50 lbs of aluminum strapped to his body. The Skybreaker does not have this issue. He's just as fast, just as dexterous, and a helluva lot stronger in Plate. See Dalinar catching that chasmfiend claw. See him digging that cistern trench through solid stone.

Basically you have an agent with a good amount of pewter, Armor that may block Shardblades but is still susceptible to blunt force attacks and restricts movement to boot, holding weapons that will be unreliable after a couple shots. He's facing someone faster, almost as dexterous, a lot stronger, with powers that take him out of range of any attacks he could muster while being a sitting duck. So he can't hit the agent directly with division? What if he sets the environment on fire? The agent, at least as you imagine him, is toast. Odds fare better on Scadrial of course.

StanLemon · March 13, 2021

27 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

@BenduLuke

1. Pewter does not burn slow, in fact it's the fastest burning of the 8 basic metals. There are only 2 metals that burn faster in the text, atium and bendalloy.

It burns slow compared to how quickly Stormlight gets consumed. A bead was enough for to flare for over an hour.

Edit: Ok double checked Mistborn, it was 5 beads being flared for an hour. That's still a far more efficient mass/Investiture ratio that Stormlight

Quote

2. A-Pewter abilities cannot be separated as you seem to suggest. It doesn't even work like that using F-Pewter. You can do that with F-Tin but we aren't speaking of that.

Likely correct, unless there is a way to hack it with intent. Though that's pure conjecture

Quote

3. A person holding Stormlight has their dexterity boosted about as much as someone burning Pewter. That same person in living Plate will be much stronger.

The only case of this potentially being true is Kaladin who isn't a good example as we've seen him have a bunch of weird things going on. No other Radiant who isn't an Edgedancer (for obvious reasons) hasn't shown boosted dexterity.

Quote

4. While I agree that F-Nicrosil will make your agent better equipped to make their pewter supplies last much longer than normal I am pretty sure that it's not a simple matter to convert stormlight into investiture usable by a metal born. Ghostbloods wouldn't be trying to kidnap Heralds if conversion were that simple.

Not saying you are wrong, though I'm pretty sure their reason to kidnap Heralds aren't so directly related to that

Quote

5. The oxygen composition may help the agent physically but it will be absolutely ruinous on his weapons. The bullet casing might be air tight but the chamber of the weapon most certainly is not. Guns are made to contain and redirect explosive force within certain tolerances, above which they fail catastrophically. When you plug up a gun barrel it explodes because the force of the explosion far exceeds what the weapon is made to contain. Firing a Scadrian gun on Roshar makes that chemical reaction more energetic. When the gun fires that explosion will be beyond tolerance, guaranteed. You may get one shot off, maybe even two. They'll be wildly inaccurate but it may fire. After that either the barrel is ruined or the chamber is. Lose integrity in either and the best outcome is a simple misfire. Worse case? Boom.

Assuming that the Ghostbloods don't just explain the effects of Roshar's atmosphere and adapt.

Edited March 13, 2021 by StanLemon

Bigmikey357 · March 13, 2021

@StanLemon you are absolutely right. The Ghostbloods already have all this information the agent would theoretically be seeking plus are already in place to discover more. So why send the agent in the first place? BECAUSE WHOEVER SENT HIM ISN'T WORKING WITH THEM. And that makes him a dead man.

Frustration · March 13, 2021

7 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Those might be plot points but they are nowhere near actualization at this point, and I don't think Ishar or any of the Heralds were around for the planet breaking surges, that came much earlier.

Every Herald with the possible exception of Ash was around at that time, and it's not like we have a way to instantly go back to that power level or anything

*cough* Rysn *Cough*

8 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

but there isn't anti alchemy.

Yeah there is, Larkin

7 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

At this point Rosharans can't access their magic anywhere else.

Again, we have four people with access to unlimited connection manipulation, should be easy.

7 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

There must be a gap between helmet and armor or the knight wouldn't be able to turn their head or look around. It would be small but bullets aren't large and a person with pewter enhanced abilities would have the accuracy to take advantage of it. Oh and the knight would be surprised that the Agent's armor is resistant to his surges and shardblade.

Beneath all plates are more plates, it says so many times, there is no clear opening.

7 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

No the aluminum armor blocks the investiture the Agent might possibly absorb from any stormlight surges. (Thanks for the idea that a Soulbearer might be able to convert investiture used against him into fueling their allamantic abilities if any). No he is running off the stored investiture from his pewter. He doesn't need to know what a Skybreaker is because his pewter enhanced abilities would enable him to react to the Skybreaker effectively. Extra Oxygen would actually make the firearms more effective and increase his native physical abilities. I know that because having lived in the high mountains most of my life when I went traveled to an area at sea level I had much more energy and endurance than normal because of the higher Oxygen levels. Oh and cartridges from Scadrial still have Scadrian atmosphere in them because cartridges are air tight. The difference would also not be substantial enough to cause explosions either.

Have you been purposefully ignoring me? Aluminum armor, would prevent them from absorbing investiture. Increased physical capabilities even with a-Pewter won't be nearly as great of a strength advantage as plate.

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

It burns slow compared to how quickly Stormlight gets consumed. A bead was enough for to flare for over an hour.

Edit: Ok double checked Mistborn, it was 5 beads being flared for an hour. That's still a far more efficient mass/Investiture ratio that Stormlight

but you can have a lot of stormlight on you at once,

Or Warlight if you can.

7 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Navani and her scholars don't have chemistry basis on which to reverse engineer firearms or explosives, but reverse engineering the fabrial tech would be easy with the technomagical science of Scadrial. The singers with no tech learned to capture spren on which all fabrial tech is based. Stormlight isn't a problem since it is renewed each Highstorm. Cataloging gem effects to duplicate fabrials not difficult for Scadrian tech. Scadrial has a much more comprihensive understanding of metals so would quickly outpace what Rosharan fabrials could do.

How many spren are on Scandrial?

One,

How much Stormlight?

Zero

They would have zero idea how to reverse engineer them,

that's like saying someone with a degree in biology would be able to reverse engineer a quantum physics equation because they are both sciences, it makes no sense.

2 hours ago, StanLemon said:

Assuming that the Ghostbloods don't just explain the effects of Roshar's atmosphere and adapt.

If the Ghostbloods get involved so will Hoid, his dislike of Kelsier is far too great.

16 hours ago, Gisaku75 said:

1 Roshar has been stuck in the Middle Ages for at least two thousand years and has only recently begun to change. But education is still a privilege of a few and all goods are built in an artisanal way. Scarial went from the Middle Ages to the Industrial Era in 300 years. It is backward by Sazed's expectations not compared to Roshar. It is already several centuries ahead of Roshar in all fields. It has universities open to all, factories and mass production so it can potentially develop much faster than Roshar. And the people of the south are even more advanced.

Roshar is behind n comparison to our technology, they will use Fabrials instead per WoB, so they are nowere close to the middle ages, they already have elevators and powered flight.

16 hours ago, Gisaku75 said:

2 Radiant ones are limited by the number of spen and if one dies the spren must find another person who swears at least 3 oaths before being a threat. With the medallions I can create as many metalborns as I want.

In WoR it talks about how there where more Windrunners ready for the Third Ideal than spren to acsept them, I don't think that will be a problem. Medalians can't be recovered if the wearer is killed, and we don't know how many a single metalborn can make.

16 hours ago, Gisaku75 said:

3 Wayne's protege theorized about radio waves and a telegraph system already exists. So spanreed do not represent an insurmountable advantage.

Telegraphs are thousands of times slower than Spanreeds.

11 hours ago, The Technovore said:

Right so, you're making a *small* mistake, and that's in the timeline. We know that Era 2 lines up closely with SA 10. Between SA 5 and 6 there's a 10 year gap, and then a possible 2 to 5 years in the back 5 books (the front 5 so far have been about 2 to 3 years.)

Era 2 is actually between SA 5-6 it's Era 3 you are thinking of.

I will now give a second way for Roshar to delete Scandrial, because no one has answered the first.

Give an Elsecaller the Change Dawnshard,

Have them and a Bondsmith go to the CR of Scnadrial,

Soulcast every city into fire.

problem solved.

therunner · March 13, 2021

12 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

When we compare Rosharan and Scadrian magic systems we are comparing Summoning (conjuration) magic with Alchemical magic respectively. As such one of the weaknesses to Summoning magic is counter the spirits or demons you counter the magic, but there isn't anti alchemy.

I mean, even Scadrial magic is dependent on being able to access Spiritual realm, so if you block that (like with suppresor fabrials in Urithiru), Scadrial magi-tech no longer works. On the other hand, fabrials are closer to "Alchemy" magic then Surgebinders, and are comparable to medallions. So I would say that both magic systems have elements of both, with Roshar leaning more towards Summoning magic (although I feel that is misleading, because after bonding a spren you no longer have to summon anything) and Scadrial leaning more towards Alchemical side. Also both can be countered in the same way, with properly configured suppressor fabrials.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Yes as you fall toward the surface of a planet or star your mass increases. There isn't observer bias in this.

No, you are wrong, your claims go against modern understanding of physics and are simply wrong. Free fall is indistinguishable from being at rest, so it cannot have any effect on mass. Rest mass does not change with velocity (as it is invariant), total energy does but that is only relative to observer at rest. I can point you to some basic textbooks on general relativity, or just more advanced on special relativity if you want, but your claims are completely unsupported by modern physics.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Marasi was dragged through the floor on top of Wax so he took the force of his crashing through the floor then he flipped over and drastically reduced mass as they fell to prevent them being crushed and to shield her which is why she wasn't injured. The discrepancy with Wax's statement is in regard to his perception not the reality, and as for Brandon he has yet to actually address the extremes of Iron-F, but on the scales he has used it the effects have been consistent with what he has stated so far.

The description in the book states no such thing. They were both standing, with Marasi holding on to Wax. Then they crashed through the floor and fell on the next floor. Nowhere does it say that Wax reoriented himself to shield Marasi. And you did not address my points on how it is realistic to be okay after such a fall anyway.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Yes I am assuming that Soulbearers can store any form of investiture including kinetic since at this point the description says so. I am also projecting based on how Windwhisper feruchemy works to divide senses that the Soulbearer would also be able to do that though as you seem to have noticed that is technically unnecessary.

The description states that they can store investiture, or more precisely (based on our current understanding) ability to use investiture. Fourth sentence in Coppermind: " A Soulbearer storing Investiture stores their ability to use their Investiture." And your claim that they could divide a single power (A-Iron) is completely unsupported, even by analogy with Windwhisper. Closer analogy would be them being able to store different kinds of investiture in different metalminds (one for Breath, one for A-Iron etc.).

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Some alloys of Aluminum are stronger than hardened steel and Shardblades ability to cut is dependent on investiture in the blade providing the edge, but Aluminum alloys cannot be cut by investiture. In the Aluminum coppermind it does say the alloys do have the effect of it on things like invested healing.

Some aluminum alloys negate investiture and so cannot be cut as usual by shardblade. That does not mean that all alloys of aluminum provide the same effect (example, duralumin). So the bayonet would have to be made from specific alloy to negate investiture, and that alloy should also be of comparable strength to godmetal, so that it does not get destroyed by now just a regular big sword wielded by someone in what is effectively powered armor.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

There must be a gap between helmet and armor or the knight wouldn't be able to turn their head or look around. It would be small but bullets aren't large and a person with pewter enhanced abilities would have the accuracy to take advantage of it. Oh and the knight would be surprised that the Agent's armor is resistant to his surges and shardblade.

We know deadplate can shapechange to match user, in WoR we have seen dead helmet shape and lock around a hand, and in RoW we have seen live plate move around at on the fly change to fit different people. To assume that it could simply actively shapechange when worn is basic logic, so the gap would be completely useless, since plate is clearly capable of changing its shape (contingent on having stormlight). The basic concept of shardplate is magical powered armor, so to compare it with historical armor, which did require gaps, is misleading. I mean, in WoR the deadplate can actively blot out lighting strikes to prevent blinding of the user, that is ridiculously advanced, having mobile neck connection is comparatively easy.

Also even though their aluminum armor would provide protection against direct magical effects, they could still simply set the air around on fire, or the ground, or their non-aluminum items. And getting hit by a shardblade wielded by someone in shardplate would still most likely throw them back just from momentum.

6 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

5. The oxygen composition may help the agent physically but it will be absolutely ruinous on his weapons. The bullet casing might be air tight but the chamber of the weapon most certainly is not. Guns are made to contain and redirect explosive force within certain tolerances, above which they fail catastrophically. When you plug up a gun barrel it explodes because the force of the explosion far exceeds what the weapon is made to contain. Firing a Scadrian gun on Roshar makes that chemical reaction more energetic. When the gun fires that explosion will be beyond tolerance, guaranteed. You may get one shot off, maybe even two. They'll be wildly inaccurate but it may fire. After that either the barrel is ruined or the chamber is. Lose integrity in either and the best outcome is a simple misfire. Worse case? Boom.

I must partly disagree with this. Modern guns use self-oxidizing ammunition, so the effect of increased oxygen content would be indirect (i.e. hot shell casings might set stuff on fire). I do not know enough guns to be able to say if ~Era 2 Scadrial has such guns, but since it seems that gunpowder in general is self-oxidizing it seems like a safe assumption. The potential risk for Scadrian would be hyperoxia, or poising by oxygen, but that would require Roshar's atmosphere to be have oxygen content greater than 40%, which is most likely not the case.

6 hours ago, StanLemon said:

It burns slow compared to how quickly Stormlight gets consumed. A bead was enough for to flare for over an hour.

Speed of consumption of Stormlight depends on oath level, and it is possible that Shardplate also provides some benefits, but it is too soon to tell. At this point we don't know enough to say if passive stormlight use (just holding it) of a 4th level Radiant in shardplate consumes it faster than A-Pewter burning or no. Personally I would lean that stormlight is still being consumed faster, but not drastically so, maybe 1.2 times faster (and yes I have absolutely nothing to support this other than my gut feeling).

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

I will now give a second way for Roshar to delete Scandrial, because no one has answered the first.

Give an Elsecaller the Change Dawnshard,

Have them and a Bondsmith go to the CR of Scnadrial,

Soulcast every city into fire.

problem solved.

I think you are thinking too small, why not soulcast atmosphere to contain 55% of oxygen and just watch the fireworks? (altough this might be more strenuous on the Elsecaller).

Frustration · March 13, 2021

3 hours ago, therunner said:

I think you are thinking too small, why not soulcast atmosphere to contain 55% of oxygen and just watch the fireworks? (altough this might be more strenuous on the Elsecaller).

Because I thought it more reasonable, if I wanted to be really evil to Scandrial, Soulcast a city into AntiOsmium.

Ixthos · March 13, 2021

I've been following this intermitantly, and haven't been able to read everything that everyone has said, but if I may put forth this point to consider if it hasn't already been mentioned, but both sides are likely to develop countermeasures to investiture in general, either from direct study of the magic of others, or extrapolating from existing countermeasures, such as the leaching cube and systems in Urithiru, once they understand enough of one another's systems. It is likely the Ghostbloods, due to their leader, would provide the schematics for such countermeasures, to nullify Radiant powers, while similar organisations and understandings of anti-investiture and the systems of Urithiru could quickly be repurposed. It is likely that any conflict between the two would be less large armies fighting, or single superpowered individuals fighting large teams, but rather small infiltration teams with some sort of minor counter to the countermeasures to allow them to continue functioning with a weaker powerset, much like Kaladin's own experiences with the imperfect suppression of his powers - a team using a system to weaken repression systems. Let's also not discount the implied invisibility and anti-detection systems that are effective enough to blind a shard.

Another point is to remember that, for all Brandon's series involve powerful abilities facing against other powerful abilities, that many worlds - perhaps every world - seems to also have non-powered people trained to counter those with abilities, and often performing well, such as the Hazekillers, the team that almost took the Pillar room, etc. So even if one group is shown to have powers that the others can't counter with their own abilities, there likely is a low tech solution where well trained individuals can put up a good showing, so how much more effective would a well-trained team with abilities be to stop a foe they know about and have trained for be in comparison?

(Also, side note, but unless there is something that can counter the Bands of Morning on Scadrial, the 1980's era can't exist - the Kandra have a device that can turn anyone into a Fullborn. If they lose that, then there is major danger. And if they keep that, why doesn't each Kandra become a mini-Rashek under Harmony's employ? Or would they treat that as a nuke, something to slowly experiment to develop useful technologies, useful principles built in, but hope to never have to employ directly?)

Edited March 13, 2021 by Ixthos

StanLemon · March 13, 2021

12 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

@StanLemon you are absolutely right. The Ghostbloods already have all this information the agent would theoretically be seeking plus are already in place to discover more. So why send the agent in the first place? BECAUSE WHOEVER SENT HIM ISN'T WORKING WITH THEM. And that makes him a dead man.

Or alternatively whoever sent them wants one of their own agents in play. There is nothing stopping them from trading information. But to talk about the Ghostbloods, their mere existence as a Scadrian originated organization proves that it's possible for Scadrians to get a spy foothold on Roshar and while they don't make stupid decisions around the Radiants they clearly aren't afraid of them.

BenduLuke · March 13, 2021

15 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

@BenduLuke

2. A-Pewter abilities cannot be separated as you seem to suggest. It doesn't even work like that using F-Pewter. You can do that with F-Tin but we aren't speaking of that.

3. A person holding Stormlight has their dexterity boosted about as much as someone burning Pewter. That same person in living Plate will be much stronger.

4. While I agree that F-Nicrosil will make your agent better equipped to make their pewter supplies last much longer than normal I am pretty sure that it's not a simple matter to convert stormlight into investiture usable by a metal born. Ghostbloods wouldn't be trying to kidnap Heralds if conversion were that simple.

5. The oxygen composition may help the agent physically but it will be absolutely ruinous on his weapons. The bullet casing might be air tight but the chamber of the weapon most certainly is not. Guns are made to contain and redirect explosive force within certain tolerances, above which they fail catastrophically. When you plug up a gun barrel it explodes because the force of the explosion far exceeds what the weapon is made to contain. Firing a Scadrian gun on Roshar makes that chemical reaction more energetic. When the gun fires that explosion will be beyond tolerance, guaranteed. You may get one shot off, maybe even two. They'll be wildly inaccurate but it may fire. After that either the barrel is ruined or the chamber is. Lose integrity in either and the best outcome is a simple misfire. Worse case? Boom.

6. Armor, no matter how light or flexible, restricts movement and slows reaction. The agent must account for this, for no matter how strong or dexterous he is he still is less dexterous and fast as he would be without 50 lbs of aluminum strapped to his body. The Skybreaker does not have this issue. He's just as fast, just as dexterous, and a helluva lot stronger in Plate. See Dalinar catching that chasmfiend claw. See him digging that cistern trench through solid stone.

Basically you have an agent with a good amount of pewter, Armor that may block Shardblades but is still susceptible to blunt force attacks and restricts movement to boot, holding weapons that will be unreliable after a couple shots. He's facing someone faster, almost as dexterous, a lot stronger, with powers that take him out of range of any attacks he could muster while being a sitting duck. So he can't hit the agent directly with division? What if he sets the environment on fire? The agent, at least as you imagine him, is toast. Odds fare better on Scadrial of course.

In the scenario I presented there were no blunt force attacks that impacted the armor the fight ended before that.

F-Pewter only stores strength so the A-Pewter is already being separated and most of it discarded. F-Steel could store the Pewter speed. So A-Pewter is separateable just like senses are. In addition A-Pewter is a form of investiture so likely could be stored by F-Nicrosil unless stated otherwise.

The situation was someone tapping A-Pewter abilities Feruchemically so the potential physical abilities could be even greater than Flaring Pewter or even Duralumin Pewter burning. No one has yet been shown to have that much physical ability with stormlight yet.

With regards to Oxygen content are you saying that a Rosharan would suffocate on Scadrial? If not the effect would be negligible with regard to firearms except to improve their efficiency some.

With regard to converting stormlight I thought it was an interesting idea proposed indirectly by someone else not that I said it could be used that way. Just something to consider.

15 hours ago, StanLemon said:

It burns slow compared to how quickly Stormlight gets consumed. A bead was enough for to flare for over an hour.

Edit: Ok double checked Mistborn, it was 5 beads being flared for an hour. That's still a far more efficient mass/Investiture ratio that Stormlight

Likely correct, unless there is a way to hack it with intent. Though that's pure conjecture

The only case of this potentially being true is Kaladin who isn't a good example as we've seen him have a bunch of weird things going on. No other Radiant who isn't an Edgedancer (for obvious reasons) hasn't shown boosted dexterity.

Not saying you are wrong, though I'm pretty sure their reason to kidnap Heralds aren't so directly related to that

Assuming that the Ghostbloods don't just explain the effects of Roshar's atmosphere and adapt.

Since tin-a can be split, it implies that abilities of other allomantic metals with multiple effects can be split. Pewter could be used to fill F-Steel, F-Pewter, F-Gold F-Bronze and maybe even F-brass (to some extent), so why not have the various physical investiture enhacements split into F-Nicrosil Like F-Tin can store Senses from other metals and split A-Tin senses into separate metalminds tappable individually, or in combination.

12 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

@StanLemon you are absolutely right. The Ghostbloods already have all this information the agent would theoretically be seeking plus are already in place to discover more. So why send the agent in the first place? BECAUSE WHOEVER SENT HIM ISN'T WORKING WITH THEM. And that makes him a dead man.

Ghostbloods could have tipped off the Scadrian government in an effort to broaden and expand operations with less direct involvement while still supplying some covert support. Besides at this point and current state of the Cosmere the engagement would need to be on Roshar to enable the abilities of both to be available to them and it would likely need to be a Scadrian having a conflict with someone in Odiums forces thus Skybreaker.

8 hours ago, therunner said:

I mean, even Scadrial magic is dependent on being able to access Spiritual realm, so if you block that (like with suppresor fabrials in Urithiru), Scadrial magi-tech no longer works. On the other hand, fabrials are closer to "Alchemy" magic then Surgebinders, and are comparable to medallions. So I would say that both magic systems have elements of both, with Roshar leaning more towards Summoning magic (although I feel that is misleading, because after bonding a spren you no longer have to summon anything) and Scadrial leaning more towards Alchemical side. Also both can be countered in the same way, with properly configured suppressor fabrials.

No, you are wrong, your claims go against modern understanding of physics and are simply wrong. Free fall is indistinguishable from being at rest, so it cannot have any effect on mass. Rest mass does not change with velocity (as it is invariant), total energy does but that is only relative to observer at rest. I can point you to some basic textbooks on general relativity, or just more advanced on special relativity if you want, but your claims are completely unsupported by modern physics.

The description in the book states no such thing. They were both standing, with Marasi holding on to Wax. Then they crashed through the floor and fell on the next floor. Nowhere does it say that Wax reoriented himself to shield Marasi. And you did not address my points on how it is realistic to be okay after such a fall anyway.

The description states that they can store investiture, or more precisely (based on our current understanding) ability to use investiture. Fourth sentence in Coppermind: " A Soulbearer storing Investiture stores their ability to use their Investiture." And your claim that they could divide a single power (A-Iron) is completely unsupported, even by analogy with Windwhisper. Closer analogy would be them being able to store different kinds of investiture in different metalminds (one for Breath, one for A-Iron etc.).

Some aluminum alloys negate investiture and so cannot be cut as usual by shardblade. That does not mean that all alloys of aluminum provide the same effect (example, duralumin). So the bayonet would have to be made from specific alloy to negate investiture, and that alloy should also be of comparable strength to godmetal, so that it does not get destroyed by now just a regular big sword wielded by someone in what is effectively powered armor.

We know deadplate can shapechange to match user, in WoR we have seen dead helmet shape and lock around a hand, and in RoW we have seen live plate move around at on the fly change to fit different people. To assume that it could simply actively shapechange when worn is basic logic, so the gap would be completely useless, since plate is clearly capable of changing its shape (contingent on having stormlight). The basic concept of shardplate is magical powered armor, so to compare it with historical armor, which did require gaps, is misleading. I mean, in WoR the deadplate can actively blot out lighting strikes to prevent blinding of the user, that is ridiculously advanced, having mobile neck connection is comparatively easy.

Also even though their aluminum armor would provide protection against direct magical effects, they could still simply set the air around on fire, or the ground, or their non-aluminum items. And getting hit by a shardblade wielded by someone in shardplate would still most likely throw them back just from momentum.

I must partly disagree with this. Modern guns use self-oxidizing ammunition, so the effect of increased oxygen content would be indirect (i.e. hot shell casings might set stuff on fire). I do not know enough guns to be able to say if ~Era 2 Scadrial has such guns, but since it seems that gunpowder in general is self-oxidizing it seems like a safe assumption. The potential risk for Scadrian would be hyperoxia, or poising by oxygen, but that would require Roshar's atmosphere to be have oxygen content greater than 40%, which is most likely not the case.

Speed of consumption of Stormlight depends on oath level, and it is possible that Shardplate also provides some benefits, but it is too soon to tell. At this point we don't know enough to say if passive stormlight use (just holding it) of a 4th level Radiant in shardplate consumes it faster than A-Pewter burning or no. Personally I would lean that stormlight is still being consumed faster, but not drastically so, maybe 1.2 times faster (and yes I have absolutely nothing to support this other than my gut feeling).

I think you are thinking too small, why not soulcast atmosphere to contain 55% of oxygen and just watch the fireworks? (altough this might be more strenuous on the Elsecaller).

Much of Scadrian's Tech is magic independent and counter magical vs Roshar's Tech being magic dependent. So even without magic Scadrian's are still a serious threat to Rosharans. The reason I believe this is the case is that Scadrian magic is more firmly based in the physical world than Roshar's. I also suspect that there isn't an all blocking Scadrian magic tone, that you would need one for each metal and application. On the other hand Scadrial once they realize the potential of Anti-Light have a magical means to detect and synthesize it in Bronze-A working with Scadrian scientists or if they are physicists themselves. In addition they might have the ability to be precise in which surges to suppress.

With regard to velocity increasing mass here are some references.

https://www2.lbl.gov/MicroWorlds/teachers/massenergy.pdf Mass, Energy, the Speed of Light— It’s Not Intuitive!

https://futurism.com/why-do-objects-increase-in-mass-as-they-get-faster-2 Why do Objects increase in mass as they get faster?

So present a scenario where the Skybreaker sets the air on fire before he gets shot out of the sky and fails in his attempt to set the agent on fire because he didn't initially realize that the Agents armor is resistant to division. It is also unlikely that the chemically ignorant Rosharan would think to soulcast O2 for burning to try and counter the firearms at this time.

Pewter allomancy is investiture thus is storeable and since Tin-a can be split so can Pewter-a.

Aluminum would negate the investiture of the plate at the impact sight as well as the person and these were K-Mg-Al incendiary rounds used to create a breach even with minimal to no gap. In addition the finishing stroke was with a sharpened, hardened, aluminum alloy blade powered by Feruchemically tapped Pewter strength (meaning there was allot available to tap).

I just finished AoL again and Wax grabbed Marsai dragging her down with him while tapping massive weight and crashed through the floor then flipping on top of her to shield her while storing weight pushing on floor nails to slow their fall and finally having a heavy weight land on him which was Wayne who took the brunt of the explosion on his back. Wax is why Marisai wasn't injured and Wayne is why Wax wasn't burned.

Frustration · March 13, 2021

2 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

I've been following this intermitantly, and haven't been able to read everything that everyone has said, but if I may put forth this point to consider if it hasn't already been mentioned, but both sides are likely to develop countermeasures to investiture in general, either from direct study of the magic of others, or extrapolating from existing countermeasures, such as the leaching cube and systems in Urithiru, once they understand enough of one another's systems. It is likely the Ghostbloods, due to their leader, would provide the schematics for such countermeasures, to nullify Radiant powers, while similar organisations and understandings of anti-investiture and the systems of Urithiru could quickly be repurposed. It is likely that any conflict between the two would be less large armies fighting, or single superpowered individuals fighting large teams, but rather small infiltration teams with some sort of minor counter to the countermeasures to allow them to continue functioning with a weaker powerset, much like Kaladin's own experiences with the imperfect suppression of his powers - a team using a system to weaken repression systems. Let's also not discount the implied invisibility and anti-detection systems that are effective enough to blind a shard.

It would be far easier to switch suppression of the fused to suppresion of Metalic arts, than leaching to suppresion.

1 hour ago, Ixthos said:

Another point is to remember that, for all Brandon's series involve powerful abilities facing against other powerful abilities, that many worlds - perhaps every world - seems to also have non-powered people trained to counter those with abilities, and often performing well, such as the Hazekillers, the team that almost took the Pill room, etc. So even if one group is shown to have powers that the others can't counter with their own abilities, there likely is a low tech solution where well trained individuals can put up a good showing, so how much more effective would a well-trained team with abilities be to stop a foe they know about and have trained for be in comparision?

Eight trained men, could almost defete Kelsier, and since he beat an Inquisitor we can safely say he is in the upper esilons of Mistborn,

However hundreds of men can be cut down by a shardbearer with ease.

Amaram was a third Dahn General and a SoH, it's safe to say that his guard would be the best, and trained to deal with Shardbearers, but Helaran cut through them without blinking.

1 hour ago, Ixthos said:

(Also, side note, but unless there is something that can counter the Bands of Morning on Scadrial, the 1980's era can't exist - the Kandra have a device that can turn anyone into a Fullborn. If they lose that, then there is major danger. And if they keep that, why doesn't each Kandra become a mini-Rashek under Harmony's employ? Or would they treat that as a nuke, something to slowly experiment to develop useful technologies, useful principles built in, but hope to never have to employ directly?)

If anyone but a Kandra uses them it will divide the continents, and if a Kandra uses them, they are begging for a BOndsmith to take control of them, and turn them against Scandrial.

35 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

F-Pewter only stores strength so the A-Pewter is already being separated and most of it discarded. F-Steel could store the Pewter speed. So A-Pewter is separateable just like senses are. In addition A-Pewter is a form of investiture so likely could be stored by F-Nicrosil unless stated otherwise.

Since tin-a can be split, it implies that abilities of other allomantic metals with multiple effects can be split. Pewter could be used to fill F-Steel, F-Pewter, F-Gold F-Bronze and maybe even F-brass (to some extent), so why not have the various physical investiture enhacements split into F-Nicrosil Like F-Tin can store Senses from other metals and split A-Tin senses into separate metalminds tappable individually, or in combination.

f-NIcrocil and f-copper are different than any other Feruchemical powers, Why can't Tin be similar?

37 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

With regards to Oxygen content are you saying that a Rosharan would suffocate on Scadrial?

It is entirly possible that they might, But given that breathing is a disadvantage to Radiants that is a moot point.

38 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Much of Scadrian's Tech is magic independent and counter magical vs Roshar's Tech being magic dependent. So even without magic Scadrian's are still a serious threat to Rosharans. The reason I believe this is the case is that Scadrian magic is more firmly based in the physical world than Roshar's. I also suspect that there isn't an all blocking Scadrian magic tone, that you would need one for each metal and application. On the other hand Scadrial once they realize the potential of Anti-Light have a magical means to detect and synthesize it in Bronze-A working with Scadrian scientists or if they are physicists themselves. In addition they might have the ability to be precise in which surges to suppress.

Your speculation is not fact, all evidence indicates that an all blocking Tone exists,

Roshar will never be more advanced in earth technology, they will use Fabrials instead, that doesn't prove anything.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Aluminum would negate the investiture of the plate at the impact sight as well as the person and these were K-Mg-Al incendiary rounds used to create a breach even with minimal to no gap. In addition the finishing stroke was with a sharpened, hardened, aluminum alloy blade powered by Feruchemically tapped Pewter strength (meaning there was allot available to tap).

That isn't how aluminum works, touching plate won't do anything.

BenduLuke · March 13, 2021

22 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It would be far easier to switch suppression of the fused to suppresion of Metalic arts, than leaching to suppresion.

Eight trained men, could almost defete Kelsier, and since he beat an Inquisitor we can safely say he is in the upper esilons of Mistborn,

However hundreds of men can be cut down by a shardbearer with ease.

Amaram was a third Dahn General and a SoH, it's safe to say that his guard would be the best, and trained to deal with Shardbearers, but Helaran cut through them without blinking.

If anyone but a Kandra uses them it will divide the continents, and if a Kandra uses them, they are begging for a BOndsmith to take control of them, and turn them against Scandrial.

f-NIcrocil and f-copper are different than any other Feruchemical powers, Why can't Tin be similar?

It is entirly possible that they might, But given that breathing is a disadvantage to Radiants that is a moot point.

Your speculation is not fact, all evidence indicates that an all blocking Tone exists,

Roshar will never be more advanced in earth technology, they will use Fabrials instead, that doesn't prove anything.

That isn't how aluminum works, touching plate won't do anything.

I suspect that suppressing metalic arts would be much more complicated than suppressing light magic. Just like matter is more complex than energy. Not sure what evidence you think indicates there is an all blocking tone?

I suspect that inquistiors would be a major challenge for Radiants and have a good chance of beating almost any Radiants. Scadrian Tech is geared toward combating metalborn which is why 8 people had a chance against Kel. Once exposed I suspect that Scadrian's would develop Anti-Radiant tech as well so regular people would have a chance. Roshar is only just starting to develop anti radiant tech.

Not sure what you mean by your f-Nicrosil and f-copper comment. f-copper could probably store heat from a-pewter as pewter arms are not affected much by cold. A-Pewter seem like a universal internal physical donor, and F-Nicrosil seems like a universal investiture receiver making it the most versatile feruchemical metal of all. F-Tin is a universal sensory receiver.

Aluminum containing projectiles piercing the armor not just touching it which is what the aluminum incendiary projectiles would do and does produce the effect of inhibiting stormlight in the region. I thought that was clear if someone took the time to think about it before responding. Thanks for having me clarify.

Fabrials are no replacement for physical technology and the understanding that comes from it so will always be at a disadvantage to Scadrial if they never gain an understanding of the physical universe. Where Scadrians with an understanding of physical science will understand why Fabrials act as they do and will be able to find many ways to reverse engineer it exceed their effects beyond just trapping Spren. By your own argument that Roshar will never have advanced physical tech you have admitted that Roshar will always be at a fundamental disadvantage to Scadrial. It really isn't earth tech since it has a Scadrian magic component.

Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

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