ScadrianTank he/him Posted March 6, 2021 Posted March 6, 2021 (edited) Regarding pushing on trace minerals and the Bands of Mourning, it seems that using the Bands consumes Fullborn Investiture stored in them. The first time Marisi uses the Bands, she taps every reserve and sees Mist coming from herself. What I think is happening is that she was tapping more Investiture than her body could hold, so it was leaking out, just like black smoke coming from Nightblood. Wax later notes that the stores that changed his level of Investiture were running out. If that is correct, then the Bands or any weapon like them is extremely limited in duration for this extreme "pushing on trace minerals in your blood" level of power. What that might mean is that a BoM-style metalmind that grants only one Allomantic power would make its user stronger with that skill than someone who is using the Bands. In a less is more sort of way. The sad thing about steel and iron savants is that we have no idea about their perks (and consequences). There is a WoB where Brandon spoke about maybe needing to change how savantism works. He was worried that Wax used his power so much that he had to have been a savant, but he wasn't showing any side effects. And that makes the speculation about what they can do a bit shaky, at least until the Lost Metal comes out. The WoB: Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Warning, Evgeni. I'm really considering doing a backpedal on savants. The more i think about them, the less I'm not liking how my current course has them being treated in upcoming books. I think it deviates too far from my original vision. Argent Hey, I wouldn't normally contact you directly like this, but given that you thought it important enough to reach out and let me know you might change how savants work, I figured you probably wouldn't be too upset by this message. I replied to your Facebook comment, asking if you could clarify a little bit which aspects of savantism you are thinking of keeping and/or cutting. I don't need an essay on the topic (though you know I'd love one!), just some details on what we can consider canon for theories, and what we should be careful around. Brandon Sanderson Evgeni, So here's the problem. The more I dig into savants in the later outlines, the more I feel that I'm in a dangerous area--in that I'm disobeying their original intention. (Which is that using the power so much that it permeates your soul can be dangerous, a kind of uncontrolled version of a spren bond.) And so, I don't want to let myself just start making people savants right and left. It needs to be a specific thing. Wax is the troubling one, as I have him burning so much steel that he's well on his way, but isn't showing any side effects. If I'm going to give him savant-like abilities, he needs savant-like consequences. That's the danger, just falling back on savanthood to do some of the things I want, so often that it undermines the actual point and purpose of them in the cosmere lore. So if I backpedal, it will be to contain this and point myself the right way, sharply curtailing my desire to make people savants without their savanthood being an intrinsic part of their story and conflict in life. (Like it was for Spook, and is for Soulcasting savants on Roshar.) Feel free to share this. Argent Okay, so - if you do decide to go this route, I see the story implications (larger focus on consequences, less easy to get to the point where a character can be considered a savant). What I am not sure about is the potential for a mechanical change. Would a backpedal on your side cause a conflict with information you've shared with us, in or out of your books? Are you saying that it's possible that Wax won't be considered a savant (if you can't squeeze a good ramifications plot for him that doesn't contradict the apparent lack of consequences so far, for example)? Brandon Sanderson I haven't decided on anything yet. It's mostly consequences for the future--just a kind of, "be aware I'm not 100% pleased with how Wax turned out, re: savanthood and Allomantic resonance." The idea of resonance is that two powers, combined, meld kind of into one single power. This is a manifestation of the way Shards combine. Wax was intended as a savant of the two melded powers. But without consequences in his plot, I'm not confident that I'll continue in the same vein for future books. Footnote: The first message comes from Brandon reaching out to Argent (Evgeni) on Facebook with a follow-up regarding this entry. This rest is from a Reddit PM exchange between Argent and Brandon. Miscellaneous 2016 (Dec. 15, 2016)  Edited March 6, 2021 by ScadrianTank Lost a sentance when pasted text from a word processor.
BenduLuke he/him Posted March 6, 2021 Posted March 6, 2021 19 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said: Wax was only able to push on trace Metallic signifiers when he was holding the Bands. Without them and with his Savantism he could better see metal traces, can influence some to greater effect (the bullet scene when he was a child) and the steel bubble. But he's not all of a sudden bloodbending people. Marsh can't even do that and all he sees is metal traces. But let's say for the sake of argument that he could. How many people would you say currently have this ability? Wax is extraordinary but he's also an agent of Harmony, which could in theory be augmenting his abilities, much in the same way Vin was boosted by Preservation. You cannot take an obvious outlier and assume that what they achieve is the baseline for any user of an invested art. Brandon in other articles has said that in era 2 no one has developed their skill to the point where they can detect trace metals, and that the ability was extremely rare in era 1, totally necessary for inquisitors. In addition investiture of the person themselves restricts bloodbending on them, but not nessisarily in the immediate area. The amount of metal in what is pushed also limits the amount of the push as well. 1 hour ago, ScadrianTank said: Regarding pushing on trace minerals and the Bands of Mourning, it seems that using the Bands consumes Fullborn Investiture stored in them. The first time Marisi uses the Bands, she taps every reserve and sees Mist coming from herself. What I think is happening is that she was tapping more Investiture than her body could hold, so it was leaking out, just like black smoke coming from Nightblood. Wax later notes that the stores that changed his level of Investiture were running out. If that is correct, then the Bands or any weapon like them is extremely limited in duration for this extreme "pushing on trace minerals in your blood" level of power. What that might mean is that a BoM-style metalmind that grants only one Allomantic power would make its user stronger with that skill than someone who is using the Bands. In a less is more sort of way. The sad thing about steel and iron savants is that we have no idea about their perks (and consequences). He was worried that Wax used his power so much that he had to have been a savant, but he wasn't showing any side effects. And that makes the speculation about what they can do a bit shaky, at least until the Lost Metal comes out. The WoB:  Reveal hidden contents Brandon Sanderson Warning, Evgeni. I'm really considering doing a backpedal on savants. The more i think about them, the less I'm not liking how my current course has them being treated in upcoming books. I think it deviates too far from my original vision. Argent Hey, I wouldn't normally contact you directly like this, but given that you thought it important enough to reach out and let me know you might change how savants work, I figured you probably wouldn't be too upset by this message. I replied to your Facebook comment, asking if you could clarify a little bit which aspects of savantism you are thinking of keeping and/or cutting. I don't need an essay on the topic (though you know I'd love one!), just some details on what we can consider canon for theories, and what we should be careful around. Brandon Sanderson Evgeni, So here's the problem. The more I dig into savants in the later outlines, the more I feel that I'm in a dangerous area--in that I'm disobeying their original intention. (Which is that using the power so much that it permeates your soul can be dangerous, a kind of uncontrolled version of a spren bond.) And so, I don't want to let myself just start making people savants right and left. It needs to be a specific thing. Wax is the troubling one, as I have him burning so much steel that he's well on his way, but isn't showing any side effects. If I'm going to give him savant-like abilities, he needs savant-like consequences. That's the danger, just falling back on savanthood to do some of the things I want, so often that it undermines the actual point and purpose of them in the cosmere lore. So if I backpedal, it will be to contain this and point myself the right way, sharply curtailing my desire to make people savants without their savanthood being an intrinsic part of their story and conflict in life. (Like it was for Spook, and is for Soulcasting savants on Roshar.) Feel free to share this. Argent Okay, so - if you do decide to go this route, I see the story implications (larger focus on consequences, less easy to get to the point where a character can be considered a savant). What I am not sure about is the potential for a mechanical change. Would a backpedal on your side cause a conflict with information you've shared with us, in or out of your books? Are you saying that it's possible that Wax won't be considered a savant (if you can't squeeze a good ramifications plot for him that doesn't contradict the apparent lack of consequences so far, for example)? Brandon Sanderson I haven't decided on anything yet. It's mostly consequences for the future--just a kind of, "be aware I'm not 100% pleased with how Wax turned out, re: savanthood and Allomantic resonance." The idea of resonance is that two powers, combined, meld kind of into one single power. This is a manifestation of the way Shards combine. Wax was intended as a savant of the two melded powers. But without consequences in his plot, I'm not confident that I'll continue in the same vein for future books. Footnote: The first message comes from Brandon reaching out to Argent (Evgeni) on Facebook with a follow-up regarding this entry. This rest is from a Reddit PM exchange between Argent and Brandon. Miscellaneous 2016 (Dec. 15, 2016)  You're right it isn't clear what the resonances and savant consequences are Iron and Steel yet. Wax may be nearing savanthood in both Iron and Steel with how much he uses them. He is starting to use them as one power or together subconciously. Perhaps in the next book his skill and experience with the Bands will cause him to notice trace metals around him in both people and the environment. He may also start noticing the negative effects of his emerging savantism. I wonder if Wax could effectively increase his weight by pushing on metal above him and storing the additional weight as a means of rapidly restoring his metal minds to full capasity? 1
ScadrianTank he/him Posted March 6, 2021 Posted March 6, 2021 6 minutes ago, BenduLuke said: I wonder if Wax could effectively increase his weight by pushing on metal above him and storing the additional weight as a means of rapidly restoring his metal minds to full capasity? That is a cool idea. I thought for some time that in Era 3, Scadrian fighter pilots would be using F-Iron to negate the stress of high-g maneuvers. The question here is whether or not the force of a steel push acting on a body counts as a change in weight. It should since Allomatic Iron and Steel produce an effect similar to a conjoined fabrial with aluminum. Pushing on a blue line counts as conjoining an Allomancer and the object, and from that point, they should act as a single entity in some ways. Allomancers can also transfer the energy of a push on their body by themselves pushing an object. We saw something like that in Vin and Zane against Straff's army and Wax's fight on a train, IIRC. That makes me wonder if a Windrunner got Iron or Steel Allomancy, could they Lash metal objects through blue lines without touching them?
BenduLuke he/him Posted March 6, 2021 Posted March 6, 2021 15 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said: That is a cool idea. I thought for some time that in Era 3, Scadrian fighter pilots would be using F-Iron to negate the stress of high-g maneuvers. The question here is whether or not the force of a steel push acting on a body counts as a change in weight. It should since Allomatic Iron and Steel produce an effect similar to a conjoined fabrial with aluminum. Pushing on a blue line counts as conjoining an Allomancer and the object, and from that point, they should act as a single entity in some ways. Allomancers can also transfer the energy of a push on their body by themselves pushing an object. We saw something like that in Vin and Zane against Straff's army and Wax's fight on a train, IIRC. That makes me wonder if a Windrunner got Iron or Steel Allomancy, could they Lash metal objects through blue lines without touching them? Since the blue lines are a spiritual connection to the metal then creating lashings using them in my mind would be possible. A tin twin windwhisper paired with either lurcher or coinshot could potentially store that metal sense in their metal mind and use that to direct the lashing without burning Steel or Iron at the time in that instance. Velocity does increase mass but only becomes noticeable at relativistic speeds. Do you think the steelrunner could store some of the speed of the jet? Of course a steelrunner could tap any stored speed to increase their reaction time in situations. If an allomantic push counts as additional weight then so would an allomantic pull on metal beneath a skimmer further magnifying the Iron compounding.
LewsTherinTelescope Posted March 7, 2021 Posted March 7, 2021 (edited) 11 hours ago, ScadrianTank said: The first time Marisi uses the Bands, she taps every reserve and sees Mist coming from herself. What I think is happening is that she was tapping more Investiture than her body could hold, so it was leaking out, just like black smoke coming from Nightblood. A theory a few people on the Discord were considering with this is that perhaps the way Allomancy ordinarily works is by making mist (pre-keyed to an effect, of course) when you burn a metal, which they then use to perform the desired task, which explains both why the pure mists can fuel any Allomantic ability, and why Marasi was leaking mist in that scene (producing way too much of it). (She doesn't actually notice the mist until after she starts burning metals, but it's not clear if she just didn't notice it, if just not enough had leaked yet, or if it actually wasn't there yet.) Edit: to be clear, "making" mist in the same way the Bondsmith spren "make" Light, aka drawing from the Spiritual and for whatever reason it's in that form, not creating from nothing. Edited March 7, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope 1
therunner he/him Posted March 7, 2021 Posted March 7, 2021 13 hours ago, BenduLuke said: I wonder if Wax could effectively increase his weight by pushing on metal above him and storing the additional weight as a means of rapidly restoring his metal minds to full capasity? I do not think that would be possible, just having additional force pushing him down would not do anything to his weight, that would be like saying having an elephant standing on your head makes you heavier. 12 hours ago, BenduLuke said: Since the blue lines are a spiritual connection to the metal then creating lashings using them in my mind would be possible. That would be an interesting synergy, I think it depends on if it is possible to send investiture through those connections or not. 12 hours ago, BenduLuke said: Velocity does increase mass but only becomes noticeable at relativistic speeds. Do you think the steelrunner could store some of the speed of the jet? Of course a steelrunner could tap any stored speed to increase their reaction time in situations. It is a bit more complicated than that, total energy increases with velocity, and you can then convert that to mass using E=mc^2, and call resulting mass relativistic. However the rest mass is still the same (and that is what is being acted upon by gravity, per equivalence principle), so weight is caused by rest mass, not total energy (again actually it is bit more complicated, but ultimately different reference frames must produce same effects, so speed of someone cannot effect their weight). At first I would think that the steelrunner should be able to store that speed, as they are moving with the jet. However, this gets complicated with lets say trains, as it should let them store the speed of the train, and this effect would already be noticeable in Era 2 and I do not think anyone mentioned that. 1
Frustration Posted March 7, 2021 Posted March 7, 2021 5 hours ago, therunner said: At first I would think that the steelrunner should be able to store that speed, as they are moving with the jet. However, this gets complicated with lets say trains, as it should let them store the speed of the train, and this effect would already be noticeable in Era 2 and I do not think anyone mentioned that. They can't, it's muscle speed. 1
ScadrianTank he/him Posted March 7, 2021 Posted March 7, 2021 18 hours ago, BenduLuke said: Velocity does increase mass but only becomes noticeable at relativistic speeds. Do you think the steelrunner could store some of the speed of the jet? Of course a steelrunner could tap any stored speed to increase their reaction time in situations. 6 hours ago, therunner said: At first I would think that the steelrunner should be able to store that speed, as they are moving with the jet. However, this gets complicated with lets say trains, as it should let them store the speed of the train, and this effect would already be noticeable in Era 2 and I do not think anyone mentioned that. F-Steel stores the speed of the body, doesn't it? For that to work, a Steelrunner would have to have a very intimate relationship with the jet, I think. Maybe you can make a jet with F-Steel fabrial built-in like the one Southerners use to lower the weight of their airships. But that would only affect its mechanisms like the flaps and landing gear, not the actual flight speed.
The Technovore he/him Posted March 7, 2021 Posted March 7, 2021 5 hours ago, ScadrianTank said: F-Steel stores the speed of the body, doesn't it? For that to work, a Steelrunner would have to have a very intimate relationship with the jet, I think. Maybe you can make a jet with F-Steel fabrial built-in like the one Southerners use to lower the weight of their airships. But that would only affect its mechanisms like the flaps and landing gear, not the actual flight speed. Yea, as fun as it would be, the idea that you can store external forces on you like that--it doesn't fit into our current model of Feruchemy, and I highly doubt Brandon would go in that direction. I spent some time pondering the effects of F-Iron on Steelpushing and Ironpulling, and I've concluded that F-Iron does not give you more powerful pushes (I'm going to speak in terms of A-Steel), but only gives you better ballast against what your pushing against. The evidence for this is in TFE. When Kelsier and Vin are training, they get into a steelpushing contest. Kel sends Vin flying, but Vin, quote "Still gave [him] a beating." This shows that Vin had the more powerful Steelpush, but because of her lack of Ballast, still got sent flying. Kelsier felt the effects of her increased pushing power. Later Kel and Vin get into some trouble with the Inquisitors. Vin was shocked multiple times at the strength of their pushes and pulls. They would rip metal from Vin's hands with incredible force, which has little to do with their weight. Inquisitors we know were gifted A-Steel and A-Iron from multiple sources, being more far potent than the average mistborn with those abilities. I'm led to conclude that it's the level of Investiture in the Allomancer that increases their force-of-push or force-of-pull. F-Iron, in my opinion, only allows you to manipulate your ballasting. It makes it so that in a steelpushing contest, you are not the one sent flying. It means that when flying through a city you're less likely to accidentally rip off a flimsy anchor, or you can ensure that you'll be ripping anchors off instead of being lifted away. It's a very similar effect, with an important distinction. I don't believe tapping F-Iron will let you send your coins flying faster. I don't believe tapping F-Iron will increase your chances of ripping open a comically large vault door. I believe F-Iron allows you maximize the ability to apply forces directly to metal objects, but can't increase the forces themselves. You would need a greater Connection to Harmony for that. 1
+Bzhydack he/him Posted March 8, 2021 Posted March 8, 2021 59 minutes ago, The Technovore said: Yea, as fun as it would be, the idea that you can store external forces on you like that--it doesn't fit into our current model of Feruchemy, and I highly doubt Brandon would go in that direction. I spent some time pondering the effects of F-Iron on Steelpushing and Ironpulling, and I've concluded that F-Iron does not give you more powerful pushes (I'm going to speak in terms of A-Steel), but only gives you better ballast against what your pushing against. The evidence for this is in TFE. When Kelsier and Vin are training, they get into a steelpushing contest. Kel sends Vin flying, but Vin, quote "Still gave [him] a beating." This shows that Vin had the more powerful Steelpush, but because of her lack of Ballast, still got sent flying. Kelsier felt the effects of her increased pushing power. Later Kel and Vin get into some trouble with the Inquisitors. Vin was shocked multiple times at the strength of their pushes and pulls. They would rip metal from Vin's hands with incredible force, which has little to do with their weight. Inquisitors we know were gifted A-Steel and A-Iron from multiple sources, being more far potent than the average mistborn with those abilities. I'm led to conclude that it's the level of Investiture in the Allomancer that increases their force-of-push or force-of-pull. F-Iron, in my opinion, only allows you to manipulate your ballasting. It makes it so that in a steelpushing contest, you are not the one sent flying. It means that when flying through a city you're less likely to accidentally rip off a flimsy anchor, or you can ensure that you'll be ripping anchors off instead of being lifted away. It's a very similar effect, with an important distinction. I don't believe tapping F-Iron will let you send your coins flying faster. I don't believe tapping F-Iron will increase your chances of ripping open a comically large vault door. I believe F-Iron allows you maximize the ability to apply forces directly to metal objects, but can't increase the forces themselves. You would need a greater Connection to Harmony for that. Yeah, but Kelsier was SUPRISED by Vin's Push power. He statet clear she can Push stronger than normaly, but is still dangerous for her go against heavier Allomancer. If we consider Allomancers with the same strengh, the one with greater weight would have stronger Pushes. Wax many times increases his weight, when he wants to give additional punch to his coins/bullets. He also literaly demolish building once with F-Iron + Steelpush, something Allomancers normaly cannot do. 1
Frustration Posted March 8, 2021 Posted March 8, 2021 28 minutes ago, Bzhydack said: Yeah, but Kelsier was SUPRISED by Vin's Push power. He statet clear she can Push stronger than normaly, but is still dangerous for her go against heavier Allomancer. If we consider Allomancers with the same strengh, the one with greater weight would have stronger Pushes. Wax many times increases his weight, when he wants to give additional punch to his coins/bullets. He also literaly demolish building once with F-Iron + Steelpush, something Allomancers normaly cannot do. Think of it this way, the amount of force that a push uses is set, weight only changes which object is moved. I don't recall Wax tapping for more push on coins/bullets, but it's been almost a year since I read WaW.
Bigmikey357 he/him Posted March 9, 2021 Posted March 9, 2021 Wax often does push on his bullets to give them more force of impact or better penetration. My question is, so what? Wax outweighs a bullet by several orders of magnitude. Once the round hits the target then that's when ballast comes into play. He is boosting the bullet, not drilling the target.Â
BenduLuke he/him Posted March 9, 2021 Posted March 9, 2021 On 3/7/2021 at 3:16 AM, therunner said: I do not think that would be possible, just having additional force pushing him down would not do anything to his weight, that would be like saying having an elephant standing on your head makes you heavier. That would be an interesting synergy, I think it depends on if it is possible to send investiture through those connections or not. It is a bit more complicated than that, total energy increases with velocity, and you can then convert that to mass using E=mc^2, and call resulting mass relativistic. However the rest mass is still the same (and that is what is being acted upon by gravity, per equivalence principle), so weight is caused by rest mass, not total energy (again actually it is bit more complicated, but ultimately different reference frames must produce same effects, so speed of someone cannot effect their weight). At first I would think that the steelrunner should be able to store that speed, as they are moving with the jet. However, this gets complicated with lets say trains, as it should let them store the speed of the train, and this effect would already be noticeable in Era 2 and I do not think anyone mentioned that. Pushing something above you does increase weight because you are adding at least some of its weight, but I also doubt that the additional weight could be added to the metalmind from it because it is not attached to the persons spiritweb. Still it made for an interesting thought experiment. Same problem with transfering speed from fast moving vehicles, but tranfering speed though ones allomancy wouldn't suffer the same problem so a steelrunner might be able to benefit from several allomantic abilities. Mass increases by Energy divided by the speed of light squared. m=E/c^2. The units of E are (kg*m^2)/s^2. Mass is never really at rest. Any increase in velocity increases mass, but not measurably until you are traveling appreciable %'s of the speed of light. Weight is mass times gravity or acceleration. Enough speed increases detectable mass, but any additional speed increases mass some. It is measurable with our tech in fighter jets and rockets at super sonic speeds, and maybe even in formula 1 race cars at near top speeds. On 3/7/2021 at 3:55 PM, The Technovore said: Yea, as fun as it would be, the idea that you can store external forces on you like that--it doesn't fit into our current model of Feruchemy, and I highly doubt Brandon would go in that direction. I spent some time pondering the effects of F-Iron on Steelpushing and Ironpulling, and I've concluded that F-Iron does not give you more powerful pushes (I'm going to speak in terms of A-Steel), but only gives you better ballast against what your pushing against. The evidence for this is in TFE. When Kelsier and Vin are training, they get into a steelpushing contest. Kel sends Vin flying, but Vin, quote "Still gave [him] a beating." This shows that Vin had the more powerful Steelpush, but because of her lack of Ballast, still got sent flying. Kelsier felt the effects of her increased pushing power. Later Kel and Vin get into some trouble with the Inquisitors. Vin was shocked multiple times at the strength of their pushes and pulls. They would rip metal from Vin's hands with incredible force, which has little to do with their weight. Inquisitors we know were gifted A-Steel and A-Iron from multiple sources, being more far potent than the average mistborn with those abilities. I'm led to conclude that it's the level of Investiture in the Allomancer that increases their force-of-push or force-of-pull. F-Iron, in my opinion, only allows you to manipulate your ballasting. It makes it so that in a steelpushing contest, you are not the one sent flying. It means that when flying through a city you're less likely to accidentally rip off a flimsy anchor, or you can ensure that you'll be ripping anchors off instead of being lifted away. It's a very similar effect, with an important distinction. I don't believe tapping F-Iron will let you send your coins flying faster. I don't believe tapping F-Iron will increase your chances of ripping open a comically large vault door. I believe F-Iron allows you maximize the ability to apply forces directly to metal objects, but can't increase the forces themselves. You would need a greater Connection to Harmony for that. It is in the definition of the effects of both A-Iron & A-Steel that greater weight produces stronger pulls and pushes respectively. Please don't confuse Vin's talent and innate power with what her power would have been if she had more mass/weight. Pound for pound she had stronger allomancy, but her allomancy would have been even stronger if she had been more massive. Both Iron and Steel twinborn coumpounders would have much more effective allomancy than their mistborn or misting counterparts due to the weight or speed respectively at the time of their pull or push. Both mass and speed can add to the potency of allomantic pushes and pulls by definition. Both Vin and Kel needed external anchors to maximize their Iron/Steel talents, but were still limited to their innate pushes provided by their mass and the speed they could generate. Both an Iron and Steel compounders have near unlimited potential power in their pushes and pulls limited only by the amount of Weight and Speed they can Tap from their metal minds. In other words the metal minds don't just provide ballasting but actual force available to the allomancer.
The Technovore he/him Posted March 10, 2021 Posted March 10, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:  It is in the definition of the effects of both A-Iron & A-Steel that greater weight produces stronger pulls and pushes respectively. Please don't confuse Vin's talent and innate power with what her power would have been if she had more mass/weight. Pound for pound she had stronger allomancy, but her allomancy would have been even stronger if she had been more massive. Both Iron and Steel twinborn coumpounders would have much more effective allomancy than their mistborn or misting counterparts due to the weight or speed respectively at the time of their pull or push. Both mass and speed can add to the potency of allomantic pushes and pulls by definition. Both Vin and Kel needed external anchors to maximize their Iron/Steel talents, but were still limited to their innate pushes provided by their mass and the speed they could generate. Both an Iron and Steel compounders have near unlimited potential power in their pushes and pulls limited only by the amount of Weight and Speed they can Tap from their metal minds. In other words the metal minds don't just provide ballasting but actual force available to the allomancer. I checked the coppermind, it is in the definition. The problem is that is that there are no sources for that definition. That indicates that the entire thing could be a misconstruing or an oversimplification of the forces in play there (I'm guessing the rules listed are from the Kelsier v Vin practice duel in early TFE). There's nothing in the Arcanum addressing it too, which kind of surprises me. The definition states that "Allomancer Mass is proportional to the strength of the push/pull." That makes little sense to me. If I'm trying to move a giant slab of metal, and I brace myself against an entire building to shove it, that will make no difference, but if I just gain a couple hundred pounds that's going improve my chances? I don't buy it. That same definition also fails to explain the raw strength of the inquisitor that Vin encounters in Kredik Shaw. He was a full grown man, she a small girl, but she'd dueled with Kel plenty of times before, and the book doesn't mention the Inquisitor in question being huge. All this combined with, again, absolutely no citations really makes me question what's missing there. Bendu, your interpretation could be closer to the truth than mine, after all it would also make little sense for a 25-foot titan Coinshot to only have the same power as a 5-foot-tall one. My concern is that the definition is currently unclear and unsourced, therefore unreliable. Edited March 10, 2021 by The Technovore *your 1
therunner he/him Posted March 10, 2021 Posted March 10, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, BenduLuke said: Pushing something above you does increase weight because you are adding at least some of its weight, but I also doubt that the additional weight could be added to the metalmind from it because it is not attached to the persons spiritweb. I am sorry but no, pushing something above you does not increase your weight. Sure the ground under you experiences greater pressure (due to your weight + due to pressure from you pushing something above you) but that has absolutely nothing to do with weight (weight = force/magnitue of force acting on object due to gravity). So your weight does not change at all, as when you push something neither gravity nor your mass changes. 9 hours ago, BenduLuke said: Mass increases by Energy divided by the speed of light squared. m=E/c^2. The units of E are (kg*m^2)/s^2. Mass is never really at rest. Any increase in velocity increases mass, but not measurably until you are traveling appreciable %'s of the speed of light. Weight is mass times gravity or acceleration. Enough speed increases detectable mass, but any additional speed increases mass some. It is measurable with our tech in fighter jets and rockets at super sonic speeds, and maybe even in formula 1 race cars at near top speeds. I know the definition and units of energy and mass. Mass is at rest in its rest frame, by definition. The increase in mass is only from perspective of observer at rest (relative to the moving object). Speed will not increase detectable mass, as gravity must be frame invariant (per general relativity) and if speed increased gravitational mass, then you could use gravity to differentiate object moving with constant speed from the stationary ones, violating principle of relativity (concrete example, an object could move fast enough that to external observer it should become black hole by having sufficient energy density, but in a frame of reference moving with the object the mass did not increase, so it did not become black hole -> the increase in mass is only apparent, not actual). So again no, speed does not actually increase mass, the perceived increase in mass of object moving at relativistic speeds is simply due to Lorentz transformation to the frame of observer at rest. What is measured in fighter jets, rockets and formula 1 cars is just force on the driver due to acceleration of the jet/rocket/formula car, nothing else, not all mass*acceleration is weight. On 08/03/2021 at 1:42 AM, Frustration said: Think of it this way, the amount of force that a push uses is set, weight only changes which object is moved. I don't recall Wax tapping for more push on coins/bullets, but it's been almost a year since I read WaW. I think the example where Wax taps his ironminds and then pretty much flattens a building goes against your reasoning here. If he had that raw power normally he should have no problem throwing small things around at nearly supersonic speeds, which he doesn't. 8 hours ago, The Technovore said: The definition states that "Allomancer Mass is proportional to the strength of the push/pull." That makes little sense to me. If I'm trying to move a giant slab of metal, and I brace myself against an entire building to shove it, that will make no difference, but if I just gain a couple hundred pounds that's going improve my chances? I don't buy it. I think the key difference here is that the physical strength is determined by muscles, while the strength of the push/pull is determined by metaphorical allomantic muscles, and we do not know what those are precisely. I think that somehow those depend on both innate potential and allomancers mass, so strenght of push/pull ~ allomancer mass*innate allomantic strength. The allomancer mass explains why Wax was able to crush a building with his push when tapping, and the innate allomantic strength explains why Vin was so surprisingly strong (ditto for that one inquisitor). Ultimately though, we might be running here into the limitations that it is a story and not a fully realized consistent universe, so a fully consistent explanation might not necessarily exist. Edited March 10, 2021 by therunner Spelling 2
Frustration Posted March 10, 2021 Posted March 10, 2021 6 hours ago, therunner said: I think the example where Wax taps his ironminds and then pretty much flattens a building goes against your reasoning here. If he had that raw power normally he should have no problem throwing small things around at nearly supersonic speeds, which he doesn't. Do you mean the time Vin flattened Kredick Shaw? Because I do not remember Wax doing that, and if Wax could add more force with his f-iron, why didn't he do that when the Water tower was dropped in BoM?
BenduLuke he/him Posted March 10, 2021 Posted March 10, 2021 12 hours ago, therunner said: I am sorry but no, pushing something above you does not increase your weight. Sure the ground under you experiences greater pressure (due to your weight + due to pressure from you pushing something above you) but that has absolutely nothing to do with weight (weight = force/magnitue of force acting on object due to gravity). So your weight does not change at all, as when you push something neither gravity nor your mass changes. I know the definition and units of energy and mass. Mass is at rest in its rest frame, by definition. The increase in mass is only from perspective of observer at rest (relative to the moving object). Speed will not increase detectable mass, as gravity must be frame invariant (per general relativity) and if speed increased gravitational mass, then you could use gravity to differentiate object moving with constant speed from the stationary ones, violating principle of relativity (concrete example, an object could move fast enough that to external observer it should become black hole by having sufficient energy density, but in a frame of reference moving with the object the mass did not increase, so it did not become black hole -> the increase in mass is only apparent, not actual). So again no, speed does not actually increase mass, the perceived increase in mass of object moving at relativistic speeds is simply due to Lorentz transformation to the frame of observer at rest. What is measured in fighter jets, rockets and formula 1 cars is just force on the driver due to acceleration of the jet/rocket/formula car, nothing else, not all mass*acceleration is weight. I think the example where Wax taps his ironminds and then pretty much flattens a building goes against your reasoning here. If he had that raw power normally he should have no problem throwing small things around at nearly supersonic speeds, which he doesn't. I think the key difference here is that the physical strength is determined by muscles, while the strength of the push/pull is determined by metaphorical allomantic muscles, and we do not know what those are precisely. I think that somehow those depend on both innate potential and allomancers mass, so strenght of push/pull ~ allomancer mass*innate allomantic strength. The allomancer mass explains why Wax was able to crush a building with his push when tapping, and the innate allomantic strength explains why Vin was so surprisingly strong (ditto for that one inquisitor). Ultimately though, we might be running here into the limitations that it is a story and not a fully realized consistent universe, so a fully consistent explanation might not necessarily exist. Pushing on something above you would increase your weight because you are adding to your weight just as if you stepped onto a scale with a bar bell, the weight just doesn't belong to you permanently. Mass does change with velocity since as you approach the speed of light your mass approaches infinity exponentially. Ironically not only does a person have greater weight at the surface of the earth compared to orbit, but they have greater mass if fractionally so. 5 hours ago, Frustration said: Do you mean the time Vin flattened Kredick Shaw? Because I do not remember Wax doing that, and if Wax could add more force with his f-iron, why didn't he do that when the Water tower was dropped in BoM? No Wax flattened the building above the vanisher tunnel by tapping all his stored weight and pushing on every piece of metal in the building. He was as heavy as a building himself at the time in AoL. The idea that his density doesn't increase when he taps massive weight is contradicted by the fact in the same book that he crashes through a floor and later brings down a building without so much as a scratch resulting from it. Perhaps his stated experienced can be explained by parts of his body increasing in density at much different rates, such as bones being most affected, then muscles, then tissues, then skin, then water, and finally air least. I don't remember the water tower scene perhaps when I get there I will comment on it. I do know that to smash a building he tapped thousands of hours of stored weight, so perhaps he didn't have that amount stored yet. 20 hours ago, The Technovore said: I checked the coppermind, it is in the definition. The problem is that is that there are no sources for that definition. That indicates that the entire thing could be a misconstruing or an oversimplification of the forces in play there (I'm guessing the rules listed are from the Kelsier v Vin practice duel in early TFE). There's nothing in the Arcanum addressing it too, which kind of surprises me. The definition states that "Allomancer Mass is proportional to the strength of the push/pull." That makes little sense to me. If I'm trying to move a giant slab of metal, and I brace myself against an entire building to shove it, that will make no difference, but if I just gain a couple hundred pounds that's going improve my chances? I don't buy it. That same definition also fails to explain the raw strength of the inquisitor that Vin encounters in Kredik Shaw. He was a full grown man, she a small girl, but she'd dueled with Kel plenty of times before, and the book doesn't mention the Inquisitor in question being huge. All this combined with, again, absolutely no citations really makes me question what's missing there. Bendu, your interpretation could be closer to the truth than mine, after all it would also make little sense for a 25-foot titan Coinshot to only have the same power as a 5-foot-tall one. My concern is that the definition is currently unclear and unsourced, therefore unreliable. The bracing allows for maximum push or pull at a persons current weight and people are not that different in weight comparatively speaking. They may have different degrees of connection to allomancy though meaning that they may have different multipliers to their weight, but Vin was still limited to what she could anchor to when in a pushing contest. Wax on the other hand could use his multiplier proportionally to his weight. To use another concept. Each coinshot or lurcher has an individual constant they could apply to their pushes and or pulls, but a twin born with Iron-F can change their constant to a variable by changing their weight. Most allomancers may be able to push at about 8-10 times their weight, Vin maybe 11 or 12 times her weight or perhaps a little more. Wax can push at maybe 10 times his weight, but his weight is variable so when he is 200 lbs he has a 2,000 lb push, but when he is 20,000 lbs his push is 200,000 lbs like when he smashed a building. As strong as the inquisitors were they were not that much more massive than Vin and her raw allomancy had a greater multiplier so she might have been dealing with inquisitors of 1 1/2 to 2 times her mass that had 5/6 of her potential power so their mass made them marginally stronger and more able to stand their ground with less of an anchor. 2
Frustration Posted March 10, 2021 Posted March 10, 2021 15 minutes ago, BenduLuke said: As strong as the inquisitors were they were not that much more massive than Vin and her raw allomancy had a greater multiplier so she might have been dealing with inquisitors of 1 1/2 to 2 times her mass that had 5/6 of her potential power so their mass made them marginally stronger and more able to stand their ground with less of an anchor. A inquisitor had at least 2 spikes and maybe even had an inate skill already so they were at least a bit stronger than VIn.
BenduLuke he/him Posted March 10, 2021 Posted March 10, 2021 1 minute ago, Frustration said: A inquisitor had at least 2 spikes and maybe even had an inate skill already so they were at least a bit stronger than VIn. yes that is why she had powerful seeker abilities and could pierce copper clouds, but in the end her innate connection to preservation made her allomancy pound for pound stronger. Most inquisitors were seekers first and their other advantages came from the limited Feruchemy they had access to. Even under TLR they all had some Feruchemy such as Gold. As for Steel and Iron that was skill not strength that enabled them to see even trace metals by necessity. Because most of their power came from Hemalurgy it was innately weaker except where it overlapped their native allomancy.
Frustration Posted March 10, 2021 Posted March 10, 2021 2 minutes ago, BenduLuke said: yes that is why she had powerful seeker abilities and could pierce copper clouds, but in the end her innate connection to preservation made her allomancy pound for pound stronger. Most inquisitors were seekers first and their other advantages came from the limited Feruchemy they had access to. Even under TLR they all had some Feruchemy such as Gold. As for Steel and Iron that was skill not strength that enabled them to see even trace metals by necessity. Because most of their power came from Hemalurgy it was innately weaker except where it overlapped their native allomancy. 2 iron and steel spikes, and Mistborn weren't uncommon among them. so they could be almost three times as strong as regular mistborn/coinshots
therunner he/him Posted March 11, 2021 Posted March 11, 2021 (edited) 13 hours ago, BenduLuke said: Pushing on something above you would increase your weight because you are adding to your weight just as if you stepped onto a scale with a bar bell, the weight just doesn't belong to you permanently. It wouldn't increase your weight, it just means you are supporting something with some weight. If I step on a scale holding a bar bell it does not make me magically heavier, it just means I am holding a bar bell, that weight does not belong to me at all. Feruchemists store their weight, not their weight + weight of all the things they happen to be holding/supporting. 13 hours ago, BenduLuke said: Mass does change with velocity since as you approach the speed of light your mass approaches infinity exponentially. Ironically not only does a person have greater weight at the surface of the earth compared to orbit, but they have greater mass if fractionally so. I explained twice already why that increase in mass is only perceived by stationary observer, and not actual one that would effect gravity and therefore weight. So again, speed does not actually increase the weight of object. 20 hours ago, Frustration said: Do you mean the time Vin flattened Kredick Shaw? Because I do not remember Wax doing that, and if Wax could add more force with his f-iron, why didn't he do that when the Water tower was dropped in BoM? I meant the incident at the end of Alloy of Law, as BenduLuke specified (quoted below) 13 hours ago, BenduLuke said: No Wax flattened the building above the vanisher tunnel by tapping all his stored weight and pushing on every piece of metal in the building. He was as heavy as a building himself at the time in AoL. The idea that his density doesn't increase when he taps massive weight is contradicted by the fact in the same book that he crashes through a floor and later brings down a building without so much as a scratch resulting from it. Perhaps his stated experienced can be explained by parts of his body increasing in density at much different rates, such as bones being most affected, then muscles, then tissues, then skin, then water, and finally air least. The passage from the book is below: "He made himself incredibly light and Pushed more strongly off the nails below. The two of them shot up through the hole he’d made, propelled some forty or fifty feet into the air. [...] Wax drew every bit of weight he had left, draining his metalminds completely. That was hundreds upon hundreds of hours of weight, enough to make him crush paving stones if he tried to walk on them. In the strange way of Feruchemy, he didn’t grow more dense— bullets would still cut through him easily if they hit. But with this incredible conflux of weight, his ability to Push grew incredible. He used that weight to Push downward with everything he had. There were numerous lines of metal below. Nails. Doorknobs. Guns. Personal effects. The building trembled, then undulated, then ripped apart as every nail in its frame was driven downward as if propelled by a rotary gun. There was an enormous crash. The building was crushed down into the railroad tunnel on top of which it had been built. The weight was gone from him in an instant, compounded upon itself in that moment, his metalminds drained all at once. Wax let gravity take him, and he dropped through the mists,..." Alloy of Law, pg. 302 Reading the passage now, he mentioned his ability to push grows when tapping Iron, and in this specific case he destroys the building by pushing on all the metal in it, which seems to be mainly nails holding it together. So it is less that he crushed the building, more that he quite forcefully removed the nails holding it together, and that combined with the pushes on the metal items was enough to make it crash. In the book he mentions a lot that weight matters when it comes to pushing. In the same passage he himself mentions that his density does not increase as bullets still go through him. Also when he destroys the building he is above it, not inside so it makes sense he is not at all hurt from its destruction, and when he drops he already depleted his metalminds, so he is no longer tapping them. As to why he did not do that in BoM, maybe he did not have enough stored? Or he did not think of in the moment? The way it is used is more as quite crude tool, and to catch the falling water tower would require some precision (so that it does not break), which he might not be capable of. And when he crashed through the floor, he pushes on the nails below to slow his fall and stops tapping the metalmind after he falls through, to quote: "He became heavy as a boulder, then as heavy as a building, then heavier. All this weight was focused on one small section of the floor. The wood crunched, then burst, exploding downward.[...] He released his metalmind and Pushed against the nails in the floor below them, trying to slow himself and Marasi. He didn’t have enough time to do it well. They crashed into the floor of the next story down, and something heavy landed on them, driving the breath from Waxillium’s lungs. There was glaring brightness and a burst of heat. Then it was over. Waxillium lay dazed, ears ringing. [...] The floor beneath them had been crushed practically to splinters, the nails flattened to little disks. Part of his downward Push must have been while he still had the increased weight." Alloy of Law, pg. 166-167.  So we know that they fell 1 floor (being generous 3-4 meters), he was not tapping metalminds when crashing into the floor, he used steel push to slow their fall and finally, Marasi herself is mostly okay despite having no power at all. (also Wayne took the brunt of explosion when he fell on top of them). Even without slowing down and assuming they fell 4m, they would be only falling for ~0.9 seconds, so when hitting the ground they would be moving at ~30 km/h, which while painful can be managed if you fall right (I once fell 4 meters and hit my head on concrete pavement, I was knocked out for ~40 seconds and could not move for another ten, but then I had no issue walking around, just my head hurt a bit. I got taken to hospital, but I had no concussion and was pretty much okay roughly four hours later). Taken together, his being okay after fall cannot be due to some increase in resiliency due to metalminds (he already released them) and most likely is due him slowing them down enough combined with a bit of luck. Edited March 11, 2021 by therunner Formatting, added personal anecdote 1
Frustration Posted March 11, 2021 Posted March 11, 2021 4 hours ago, therunner said: "He made himself incredibly light and Pushed more strongly off the nails below. The two of them shot up through the hole he’d made, propelled some forty or fifty feet into the air. [...] Wax drew every bit of weight he had left, draining his metalminds completely. That was hundreds upon hundreds of hours of weight, enough to make him crush paving stones if he tried to walk on them. In the strange way of Feruchemy, he didn’t grow more dense— bullets would still cut through him easily if they hit. But with this incredible conflux of weight, his ability to Push grew incredible. He used that weight to Push downward with everything he had. There were numerous lines of metal below. Nails. Doorknobs. Guns. Personal effects. The building trembled, then undulated, then ripped apart as every nail in its frame was driven downward as if propelled by a rotary gun. There was an enormous crash. The building was crushed down into the railroad tunnel on top of which it had been built. The weight was gone from him in an instant, compounded upon itself in that moment, his metalminds drained all at once. Wax let gravity take him, and he dropped through the mists,..." Alloy of Law, pg. 302 Reading the passage now, he mentioned his ability to push grows when tapping Iron, and in this specific case he destroys the building by pushing on all the metal in it, which seems to be mainly nails holding it together. So it is less that he crushed the building, more that he quite forcefully removed the nails holding it together, and that combined with the pushes on the metal items was enough to make it crash. In the book he mentions a lot that weight matters when it comes to pushing. In the same passage he himself mentions that his density does not increase as bullets still go through him. Also when he destroys the building he is above it, not inside so it makes sense he is not at all hurt from its destruction, and when he drops he already depleted his metalminds, so he is no longer tapping them. Only thing is, Wax is above them at the time, so his weight is going to be applied downwards, if you're holding something above your head and it tripples in weight then you probably have to put it down, or drop it all together, it wasn't that the force you were exerting to hold it up got weaker, it was that the force needed to hold it up became greater. In other words, the force of the push didn't have to change, he was simply harder to move than the nails.
BenduLuke he/him Posted March 11, 2021 Posted March 11, 2021 9 hours ago, therunner said: It wouldn't increase your weight, it just means you are supporting something with some weight. If I step on a scale holding a bar bell it does not make me magically heavier, it just means I am holding a bar bell, that weight does not belong to me at all. Feruchemists store their weight, not their weight + weight of all the things they happen to be holding/supporting. I explained twice already why that increase in mass is only perceived by stationary observer, and not actual one that would effect gravity and therefore weight. So again, speed does not actually increase the weight of object. I meant the incident at the end of Alloy of Law, as BenduLuke specified (quoted below) The passage from the book is below: "He made himself incredibly light and Pushed more strongly off the nails below. The two of them shot up through the hole he’d made, propelled some forty or fifty feet into the air. [...] Wax drew every bit of weight he had left, draining his metalminds completely. That was hundreds upon hundreds of hours of weight, enough to make him crush paving stones if he tried to walk on them. In the strange way of Feruchemy, he didn’t grow more dense— bullets would still cut through him easily if they hit. But with this incredible conflux of weight, his ability to Push grew incredible. He used that weight to Push downward with everything he had. There were numerous lines of metal below. Nails. Doorknobs. Guns. Personal effects. The building trembled, then undulated, then ripped apart as every nail in its frame was driven downward as if propelled by a rotary gun. There was an enormous crash. The building was crushed down into the railroad tunnel on top of which it had been built. The weight was gone from him in an instant, compounded upon itself in that moment, his metalminds drained all at once. Wax let gravity take him, and he dropped through the mists,..." Alloy of Law, pg. 302 Reading the passage now, he mentioned his ability to push grows when tapping Iron, and in this specific case he destroys the building by pushing on all the metal in it, which seems to be mainly nails holding it together. So it is less that he crushed the building, more that he quite forcefully removed the nails holding it together, and that combined with the pushes on the metal items was enough to make it crash. In the book he mentions a lot that weight matters when it comes to pushing. In the same passage he himself mentions that his density does not increase as bullets still go through him. Also when he destroys the building he is above it, not inside so it makes sense he is not at all hurt from its destruction, and when he drops he already depleted his metalminds, so he is no longer tapping them. As to why he did not do that in BoM, maybe he did not have enough stored? Or he did not think of in the moment? The way it is used is more as quite crude tool, and to catch the falling water tower would require some precision (so that it does not break), which he might not be capable of. And when he crashed through the floor, he pushes on the nails below to slow his fall and stops tapping the metalmind after he falls through, to quote: "He became heavy as a boulder, then as heavy as a building, then heavier. All this weight was focused on one small section of the floor. The wood crunched, then burst, exploding downward.[...] He released his metalmind and Pushed against the nails in the floor below them, trying to slow himself and Marasi. He didn’t have enough time to do it well. They crashed into the floor of the next story down, and something heavy landed on them, driving the breath from Waxillium’s lungs. There was glaring brightness and a burst of heat. Then it was over. Waxillium lay dazed, ears ringing. [...] The floor beneath them had been crushed practically to splinters, the nails flattened to little disks. Part of his downward Push must have been while he still had the increased weight." Alloy of Law, pg. 166-167.  So we know that they fell 1 floor (being generous 3-4 meters), he was not tapping metalminds when crashing into the floor, he used steel push to slow their fall and finally, Marasi herself is mostly okay despite having no power at all. (also Wayne took the brunt of explosion when he fell on top of them). Even without slowing down and assuming they fell 4m, they would be only falling for ~0.9 seconds, so when hitting the ground they would be moving at ~30 km/h, which while painful can be managed if you fall right (I once fell 4 meters and hit my head on concrete pavement, I was knocked out for ~40 seconds and could not move for another ten, but then I had no issue walking around, just my head hurt a bit. I got taken to hospital, but I had no concussion and was pretty much okay roughly four hours later). Taken together, his being okay after fall cannot be due to some increase in resiliency due to metalminds (he already released them) and most likely is due him slowing them down enough combined with a bit of luck. I guess I didn't explain myself well. Holding or wearing something or pushing on something above you does increase your weight, but only until you release it so it is only temporarily a part of you. I do agree that it wont count toward weight that can be stored. No it is a physical fact that increases in velocity equal increases in mass. As you fall into a black hole you do become more massive, for that matter as you fall toward the earth your mass also increases just not by much. Only once your acceleration is halted does mass stabilize like when you are standing on the ground or in a set orbit around earth. The observer effect has to do with relativistic time. Even then as your velocity through space increases your velocity through time decreases. All things in the universe travel at the speed of light, but why we don't realize it is because most of that velocity is through the dimension of time not space. The wood of the floor that Wax crashed through in his home would have caused scrapes, cuts, and other such injuries if he didn't have some degree of greater resistance to piercing damage even if he didn't realize that happened. He already suspected that his bones and muscles were stronger to deal with the extra weight and when he has been shot he hasn't tapped enough weight to make a noticeable difference in the bullets penetration. It is also logical that bones which are denser than tissue increase density proportionally faster as Wax increases weight. 4 hours ago, Frustration said: Only thing is, Wax is above them at the time, so his weight is going to be applied downwards, if you're holding something above your head and it tripples in weight then you probably have to put it down, or drop it all together, it wasn't that the force you were exerting to hold it up got weaker, it was that the force needed to hold it up became greater. In other words, the force of the push didn't have to change, he was simply harder to move than the nails. Wax was applying enough force below him to hold up his building amount of weight as the building collapsed beneath him also because of his weight that was 10's of thousands of times greater than moments before. That weight amplified his push by potentially 100's of thousands of times for the short time he held it. His proportional pushing strength compared to his weight remained the same. Vin, when she demolished Credic Shaw, her pushes themselves increased in power due to her ascending because of the mist.  In comparing Rosharan magic vs Scadrian magic the only place where Radiants have any chance of winning at this time is on Roshar, whereas at this time Scadrian's magic can operate on any planet in the Cosmere at this time. So any conflict between them would need to take place on Roshar. A likely scenario would be if Era 2 Scadrial got wind of a potential buildup of a Rosharan invasion force. Not knowing what they could be facing in the future when Roshar overcomes their system quarantine the Scadrian government sends a highly trained Thugbearer to scout out Roshar. To be prepared they arm him or her with aluminum alloy armor and weapons including revolvers, a carbine, bayonet and muscle powered vehicle like a bike since fuel could be an issue. The agent would be supplied with haze killer and aluminum ammunition to fit their firearms, and the firearms would be of the same caliber for simplicity sake most likely along the lines of a .44 caliber like old west rifles and pistols. They also provide the agent with an ample supply of pewter and Nicrosil bands both internal and external. The directive would be to infiltrate Roshar, assess capabilities, weapons, and tactics, and return with the intelligence. As they travel to Roshar they take the opportunity to fill their metal minds with pewter enhanced abilities. The agent reaches a Radiant base without detection, but as they attempt to observe they get detected by a 4th ideal Skybreaker who attempts to intercept them summoning full plate and blade. With only the 2 of them there and the Skybreakers obviously hostile intention the Thugbearer sets his bayonet, taps agility, and fires a thug round which bounces off the chest of the armor. The Skybreaker attempts a ranged division attack meant to burn off the armor but to his surprise the armor repels it. Tapping speed the Thugbearer quickly changes rounds to incendiary rounds, and tapping agility again targets the Skybreakers armor joints striking him in the shoulder. With a massive flare from the round the Skybreaker is knocked from the sky with a burning wound to the bone. He sees the Skybreaker get up radiating wisps of light and in moments is healed. The Skybreaker lashes himself forward at high speed to attack with his shardblade, but the Soulbearer taps massive strength and blocks the attack with his bayonet but the carbine gets damaged, then with Feruchemical speed and strength he repulses the Knight, draws a revolver and with enhanced agility fires the aluminum incendiary round into the gap between helmet and armor dropping the knight with yet another explosive round only this time the area is not healing. As the Skybreaker tries to deal with the intense burning pain without healing the thugbearer takes his bayonet and decapitates him. He walks away back to his observation post to get a shovel to hide the knights body while he burns pewter to renew his metal mind and resumes observing the potential enemies. Scadrial 1 Roshar 0. because of better tech and comparable abilities in a situation where they are equally unaware of the others advantages at the beginning.
Frustration Posted March 11, 2021 Posted March 11, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, BenduLuke said: Wax was applying enough force below him to hold up his building amount of weight as the building collapsed beneath him also because of his weight that was 10's of thousands of times greater than moments before. That weight amplified his push by potentially 100's of thousands of times for the short time he held it. His proportional pushing strength compared to his weight remained the same. You can't prove either way. 10 minutes ago, BenduLuke said: Vin, when she demolished Credic Shaw, her pushes themselves increased in power due to her ascending because of the mist. But her weight didn't change. 10 minutes ago, BenduLuke said: In comparing Rosharan magic vs Scadrian magic the only place where Radiants have any chance of winning at this time is on Roshar, whereas at this time Scadrian's magic can operate on any planet in the Cosmere at this time. So any conflict between them would need to take place on Roshar. A likely scenario would be if Era 2 Scadrial got wind of a potential buildup of a Rosharan invasion force. Not knowing what they could be facing in the future when Roshar overcomes their system quarantine the Scadrian government sends a highly trained Thugbearer to scout out Roshar. To be prepared they arm him or her with aluminum alloy armor and weapons including revolvers, a carbine, bayonet and muscle powered vehicle like a bike since fuel could be an issue. The agent would be supplied with haze killer and aluminum ammunition to fit their firearms, and the firearms would be of the same caliber for simplicity sake most likely along the lines of a .44 caliber like old west rifles and pistols. They also provide the agent with an ample supply of pewter and Nicrosil bands both internal and external. The directive would be to infiltrate Roshar, assess capabilities, weapons, and tactics, and return with the intelligence. As they travel to Roshar they take the opportunity to fill their metal minds with pewter enhanced abilities. The agent reaches a Radiant base without detection, but as they attempt to observe they get detected by a 4th ideal Skybreaker who attempts to intercept them summoning full plate and blade. With only the 2 of them there and the Skybreakers obviously hostile intention the Thugbearer sets his bayonet, taps agility, and fires a thug round which bounces off the chest of the armor. The Skybreaker attempts a ranged division attack meant to burn off the armor but to his surprise the armor repels it. Tapping speed the Thugbearer quickly changes rounds to incendiary rounds, and tapping agility again targets the Skybreakers armor joints striking him in the shoulder. With a massive flare from the round the Skybreaker is knocked from the sky with a burning wound to the bone. He sees the Skybreaker get up radiating wisps of light and in moments is healed. The Skybreaker lashes himself forward at high speed to attack with his shardblade, but the Soulbearer taps massive strength and blocks the attack with his bayonet but the carbine gets damaged, then with Feruchemical speed and strength he repulses the Knight, draws a revolver and with enhanced agility fires the aluminum incendiary round into the gap between helmet and armor dropping the knight with yet another explosive round only this time the area is not healing. As the Skybreaker tries to deal with the intense burning pain without healing the thugbearer takes his bayonet and decapitates him. He walks away back to his observation post to get a shovel to hide the knights body while he burns pewter to renew his metal mind and resumes observing the potential enemies. Scadrial 1 Roshar 0. because of better tech and comparable abilities in a situation where they are equally unaware of the others advantages at the beginning. If only we had some people who can mess with connection, and have bee said multiple times to be doing what once was impossible... and b, do you have any idea how expensive aluminum is for Scandrial at this time? the stuff is worth more than gold, putting that amount of equipment together just for a scouting mission? not likely. Also the sheer number of Radiants is far too much for one person to hanndle.  EDIT: I'm really getting tired of this so I'm going end it This requires three people and Scandrial dies, Odium would win against Harmony Spoiler Questioner Does Odium actually present a real threat to Harmony, because he-- *interrupted* Brandon Sanderson So Harmony is vastly more powerful than Odium. Questioner Yeah. Brandon Sanderson Elend was vastly more powerful than Vin. Who would win in a fight? Questioner Vin. Brandon Sanderson Okay, there's your answer. White Sand vol.1 release party (June 28, 2016) So Odium comes, kills Sazed, a Bondsmith forms a bond between another person and Ruin, that person acsends, Ruin's Scandrial and then lays down the shard, and Odium splinters it. Game Over. Edited March 11, 2021 by Frustration
BenduLuke he/him Posted March 11, 2021 Posted March 11, 2021 6 minutes ago, Frustration said: You can't prove either way. But her weight didn't change. If only we had some people who can mess with connection, and have bee said multiple times to be doing what once was impossible... and b, do you have any idea how expensive aluminum is for Scandrial at this time? the stuff is worth more than gold, putting that amount of equipment together just for a scouting mission? not likely. Also the sheer number of Radiants is far too much for one person to hanndle. Of course i can because that is how it is described in the book which I just finished again. No Vin's shear power changed as she ascended. Wax pushes maybe 10 times force compared to weight for example. When he weighs 200 lbs he for example pushes with 2,000 lbs of force (I actually think it is more). Vin for example started out with 15 times her force to weight, but as she ascended her force per weight increased exponentially. The expense is why it was the government that equiped the agent knowing the potential investiture countering properties of Aluminum alloy since they don't know what the agent will be facing. If the Set could afford to equip 60+ men with aluminum arms, then the government can fully equip one agent. The agent only handled one Knight when he couldn't avoid it. Present the hypothetical situation where the agent faces a bondsmith (at a disadvantage in combat alone) who is at the current level. I think Dalinar is at the 2nd or 3rd oath, and we don't know what it will mean at the 4th oath beyond him maybe having shardplate, but he wont have a shardblade and may never get shardplate. Stormfather told him combat is not where he will excel on his own. He opens a perpendicularity and the Agent stores the investiture for himself for his own use. The aluminum armor would block the attempt to steal connection from the agent as well. Oh and we haven't seen what is possible on Scadrial yet either. By the way I picked a Skybreaker on purpose since they as a group are on Odium's side at this point with one exception.
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