Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[BenduLuke he/him]

19 hours ago, The Technovore said:

@BenduLuke I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on a matter of opinion, although I'm 100% upvoting for the Connecticut Yankee reference. One of Mark Twain's best books, and so underrated!

Yeah Mark Twain is one of my favorite authors and Connecticut Yankee one of my favorite books.

18 hours ago, Frustration said:

Moddern guerrilla tactics?

not like it's been the exact same stratagy since the begining but whatever.

And based on medical technology/knowledge Roshar is decades ahead,

see?

not so simple.

Is acosiated with other metals?

dude Fortune is a cosmere wide effect, it transends a specific metal, and it is used in foresight.

Reasons for believing that f-Chromium is luck are mostly circumstancial and improven. There is maybe, MAYBE one other time when luck manipulation is a thing, future sight is far more common, and thus likely.

and once again you ignore the scarcity of any particular twinborn combo

Khriss has no innate investiture, and she's one of the oldest worldhoppers.

No one from first of the sun has been seen worldhopping either.

You realise you have to walk, acrossed an entire planet to worldhop right?

It takes weeks to get off world, not hours, FTL will never be "useless"

Roshar already has explosives, and easily made ones at that.

How do you Justify Roshar having more advanced medicine? I included a link to Copperminds Chromium and in terms of Feruchemy fortune is Luck in that context. Gold and Electrum are the Time viewing metals of era 2. How rare twins might be doesn't matter only that it is possible. Eugenics could solve the rarity issue.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Chromium

There is a good chance that Khriss is invested given her age and knowledge of magics. We also don't know when she is writing the Ars Archanum entries.

I never said there were world hoppers from every world so it is no surprise that First of the Sun seems not to have any.

I don't remember Roshar having explosives could you give me an example?

What makes you say you need to walk across an entire planet to world hop? Do mean to get to a perpendicularity to enter Shadesmar? Does one need to walk across an entire planet once in Shadesmar? From my reading neither seems to be the case. I am also not sure it does take weeks for everyone to get off planet.

12 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

The Vanishers used a rotary gun when robbing their last train. 

 

So machine guns are either already there or soon will be.

9 hours ago, Gisaku75 said:

No but you can design it much faster and with the certainty that it will work when you go from theory to practice, that's what computers are for. A project like navani's flying ship requires tons of math to work. On roshar those calculations have to be done in mind by dozens of people over a period of weeks or months. On Scadrial you can do the same job with in a hundred of the time thanks to the Zinc that transforms all your engineers into human computers.

Good point.

I think that Scadrial advances so quickly in science because their magic is metal based. That means they inherently have an understanding of metallurgy. Their abilities are also strongly within ordinary natural laws lending an innate understanding of physics. With those understandings all kinds of natural science and engineering follow. Rosharan magic on the other hand is abstract and subverts natural laws so may even impede scientific progress. Scadrian magic and science works everywhere, but Rosharan magic and science is much harder to implement anywhere else. So I think only on Roshar do Rosharan's consistently have any advantage, everywhere else Scadrians have the advantage.

Edited February 20, 2021 by BenduLuke

[Frustration]

47 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

How do you Justify Roshar having more advanced medicine?

They are already starting to develop and may even have Vaccination, as well as sanitation practices on par with our own.

49 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

 I included a link to Copperminds Chromium and in terms of Feruchemy fortune is Luck in that context. Gold and Electrum are the Time viewing metals of era 2. .

The copper mind is a useful tool, however you will note were it says Fortune is known by more Cosmere aware groups as foresight.

51 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

There is a good chance that Khriss is invested given her age and knowledge of magics. We also don't know when she is writing the Ars Archanum entries.

She was not invested before worldhopping, and breath is probably the only thing she could have gotten. But we see no evidence she has any.

52 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I don't remember Roshar having explosives could you give me an example?

Anti-Voidlight + Voidlight = boom.

53 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

What makes you say you need to walk across an entire planet to world hop? Do mean to get to a perpendicularity to enter Shadesmar? Does one need to walk across an entire planet once in Shadesmar? From my reading neither seems to be the case. I am also not sure it does take weeks for everyone to get off planet.

Kelsier spent weeks running non-stop in the CR before he even got to the point where someone could cross systems.

[BenduLuke he/him]

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They are already starting to develop and may even have Vaccination, as well as sanitation practices on par with our own.

The copper mind is a useful tool, however you will note were it says Fortune is known by more Cosmere aware groups as foresight.

She was not invested before worldhopping, and breath is probably the only thing she could have gotten. But we see no evidence she has any.

Anti-Voidlight + Voidlight = boom.

Kelsier spent weeks running non-stop in the CR before he even got to the point where someone could cross systems.

Vaccination where? Sanitation seems relatively equivalent across the cosmere. Era 1 Scadrial has Vaccination too.

didn't see where it is known as forsight except supposedly implied by Odium and looked up the reference without luck to confirm it.

Khriss could also be a sand caster. She likely was in every off Taldain interaction with perhaps other magics. How could she even get to or survive in the Cognitive Realm without significant investiture? No Khriss is almost certainly very invested.

Weeks is still much shorter than the years it would take to cross a planet on foot or to other planets using FTL. Kel still hasn't gone to Roshar yet and perhaps never left Scadrial CR.

Voidlight explostions are not a developed resource yet. Yes Navani caused it accidentally once and was aware enough to realize that it could happen again in Lash's tests. The explosion only happens when both are under pressure, not particularly useful as a grenade, artillery, or demolition. So not explosives tech. Lash didn't explode when her void light mixed with its anti so not reliable for explosives.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Vaccination where? Sanitation seems relatively equivalent across the cosmere. Era 1 Scadrial has Vaccination too.ot explosives tech. Lash didn't explode when her void light mixed with its anti so not reliable for explosives.

Lirin talks about it in RoW, they developed it in Kharbranth

I don't recall anything like that in era 1 though I could be wrong

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

didn't see where it is known as forsight except supposedly implied by Odium and looked up the reference without luck to confirm it.

Hoid knows where he needs to be with fortune, Odiums comments etc etc.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Khriss could also be a sand caster. She likely was in every off Taldain interaction with perhaps other magics. How could she even get to or survive in the Cognitive Realm without significant investiture? No Khriss is almost certainly very invested.

Did you even read WS? It is a major plot point that Khriss is not a Sandmaster.

Adolin got to the CR without being invested.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Weeks is still much shorter than the years it would take to cross a planet on foot or to other planets using FTL. Kel still hasn't gone to Roshar yet and perhaps never left Scadrial CR.

He was on the borders of the solar system, that's as far as he could go.

And the empty space between planets doesn't exist in the CR.

And he can run at top speed non-stop, without sleep.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

oidlight explostions are not a developed resource yet. Yes Navani caused it accidentally once and was aware enough to realize that it could happen again in Lash's tests. The explosion only happens when both are under pressure, not particularly useful as a grenade, artillery, or demolition. So not explosives tech. Lash didn't explode when her void light mixed with its anti so not reliable for explosives.

They used spheres of it, so two containers(gems) with a mass measured in mg, caused two people to die, and a room ruined.

Very useful. very poweful explosives.

[BenduLuke he/him]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Lirin talks about it in RoW, they developed it in Kharbranth

I don't recall anything like that in era 1 though I could be wrong

Hoid knows where he needs to be with fortune, Odiums comments etc etc.

Did you even read WS? It is a major plot point that Khriss is not a Sandmaster.

Adolin got to the CR without being invested.

He was on the borders of the solar system, that's as far as he could go.

And the empty space between planets doesn't exist in the CR.

And he can run at top speed non-stop, without sleep.

They used spheres of it, so two containers(gems) with a mass measured in mg, caused two people to die, and a room ruined.

Very useful. very poweful explosives.

Yes intuition is influenced by Luck. Luck is a cross temporal ability. Hoid didn't know why he was there just that he needed to be.

Khriss was trying to learn sand magic and obviously her entries in Ars Archanum take place after WS and the Silver light academy.

Something exists between the planets or he could have gone further. Distance also doesn't correlate between CR and Physical. Besides Kel was for all intents an invested cognative construct so not getting tired or sleeping (physical responses and limitations) wouldn't apply to him. Do your realize that you said Kel couldn't leave the Scadrian system? He was highly invested so if he couldn't what kind of person could?

Adolin piggy backed on Shallon and or other invested people, he couldn't get there himself and being non invested was at great risk more so if he had been alone.

Potentially powerful under the right conditions yes. Difficult to use without extreme risk to the user. Worse than using nitro glycerin, but also not always explosive. Outside of a pressurized gem they fiz like gun powder at worst, and not all that violently. Lash and her daughter just fizzled away no explosions involved so it is unreliable as an explosive and likely to kill or injure the one who uses it. Because it is not totally predictable and extremely hazardous to the user its not useful. Anti voidlight was used on the Sybling with no explosive effects as well to neutralize the voidlight corruption.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Yes intuition is influenced by Luck. Luck is a cross temporal ability. Hoid didn't know why he was there just that he needed to be.

So, he knows something is going to happen.

3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Khriss was trying to learn sand magic and obviously her entries in Ars Archanum take place after WS and the Silver light academy.

You don't sit down in silverlight university to take Sandmastery 101, it's genetic, either you have it or you don't.

4 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Something exists between the planets or he could have gone further. Distance also doesn't correlate between CR and Physical. Besides Kel was for all intents an invested cognative construct so not getting tired or sleeping (physical responses and limitations) wouldn't apply to him. Do your realize that you said Kel couldn't leave the Scadrian system? He was highly invested so if he couldn't what kind of person could?

Were you even listening to me? You are litterally repeating my points.

Kel can't leave specifically becasue he's invested, if he wasn't so invested he could leave.

5 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Adolin piggy backed on Shallon and or other invested people, he couldn't get there himself and being non invested was at great risk more so if he had been alone.

...

There is a little something called a Perpendicularity, that let's you go to the CR, ANYONE go to the cognitve realm.

5 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Potentially powerful under the right conditions yes. Difficult to use without extreme risk to the user. Worse than using nitro glycerin, but also not always explosive. Outside of a pressurized gem they fiz like gun powder at worst, and not all that violently. Lash and her daughter just fizzled away no explosions involved so it is unreliable as an explosive and likely to kill or injure the one who uses it. Because it is not totally predictable and extremely hazardous to the user its not useful. Anti voidlight was used on the Sybling with no explosive effects as well to neutralize the voidlight corruption.

1. her name is Raboniel

2. It is really easy to force them to react under presure, just force them into the same gem.

3. just drop it on a city, no threat to yourself.

[The Technovore he/him]

37 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Potentially powerful under the right conditions yes. Difficult to use without extreme risk to the user.

Not really. Stormlight and Voidlight don't really exist outside of "pressurized conditions" unless they're in a vacuum or being actively used in a surge. The most common form of existence for light is in a gem. I can think of a design for an anti-voidlight grenade right now. You have two gems, one light, one anti-light, in a grenade-like sphere being held apart under compression by a simple fabrial contraption. Lob the sucker, wait, and tap a gem on your gauntlet to release the compression, smash the spheres together, and make a nice big boom.

Honestly at point I think maybe you should do a little less conjecturing and pick up those Sanderson books again because that point with Kel and not being to leave Scadrial is a big misunderstanding in the nature of the Cosmere. Worldhopping has very little to do with innate investiture and more to do with whether or not you have a Physical Realm body. Kel is a Cognitive Shadow, his existence is tied to his highly-invested state and the magic of his planet. Spren behave the same way on Roshar. We should probably all do a re-read of Secret History before we continue down this path.

Edit: Also a note that RoW saw several uninvested soldiers enter Shadesmar through the Dalinar's perpendicularity. They "piggybacked" only so much that it required Dalinar to force Honor's perpendicularity to stand still. We also see an uninvested Jasnah struggle through Shadesmar to find Cultivation's(?) perpendicularity (because a Radiant with no stormlight is about as invested as a cow) because, like Frustration said, those things let ANYONE transfer from the PR to the CR and back again.

Edited February 20, 2021 by The Technovore

[Frustration]

On 2/20/2021 at 11:30 AM, BenduLuke said:

Eugenics could solve the rarity issue.

No it couldn't

Feruchemy is a spiritual trait, it has no physical gene.

[StanLemon]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

No it couldn't

Feruchemy is a spiritual trait, it has no physical gene.

It's still an inherited trait and it's repeatedly been implied that breeding affects it. After all, the reverse was what they were doing in The Final Empire

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

It's still an inherited trait and it's repeatedly been implied that breeding affects it. After all, the reverse was what they were doing in The Final Empire

Unsucsessful attempts might I add.

Feruchemy does not follow the normal rules of inheritence, it's a spiritual gene.

[StanLemon]

Just now, Frustration said:

Unsucsessful attempts might I add.

Feruchemy does not follow the normal rules of inheritence, it's a spiritual gene.

Oh? Were Feruchemists plentiful in TFE? No they weren't. They had to get Feruchemists like Tindwyl into the breeding pool to continue their lines. Plus Inquisitors were clearly not trying to fully wipe out them, they were useful for Spikes. But population control was very much successful. 

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Oh? Were Feruchemists plentiful in TFE? No they weren't. They had to get Feruchemists like Tindwyl into the breeding pool to continue their lines. Plus Inquisitors were clearly not trying to fully wipe out them, they were useful for Spikes. But population control was very much successful. 

Were Feruchemist ever plentiful?

Were Allomancers plentiful?

[The Technovore he/him]

During TFE Allomancers were pretty common, Luthadel having near a dozen mistborn (including Kell, Vin, and Zane) and Allomancy being not-uncommon among the nobility, and the Steel Ministry essentially being a garrison of Allomancers. I'm doing a re-read of Mistborn rn to get a better perspective on Scadrian history and mechanics. 

Edited February 22, 2021 by The Technovore

[StanLemon]

Just now, Frustration said:

Were Feruchemist ever plentiful?

Were Allomancers plentiful?

By Final Empire standards? Yes, they are plentiful in Era 2 and we don't know how many there were before TLR turned the entire population into mistrwraiths. The big difference about it being a Spiritually inherited trait vs a genetic trait is that there seems to be little rhyme or reason for why some people have the power and others don't. Sure the potential for it gets inherited even without having the power itself. But several comments about pure Allomantic lines, that the Kandra believe it's inevitable that there will be another Full Feruchemist and Brandon talking about it being spiritual genetics that are inheritable means that Eugenics should be a viable way to decrease scarcity. 

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, The Technovore said:

During TFE Allomancers were pretty common, Luthadel having near a dozen mistborn (including Kell, Vin, and Zane) and Allomancy being not-uncommon among the nobility. I'm doing a re-read of Mistborn rn to get a better perspective on Scadrian history and mechanics. 

The population of Luthadel was around a million wasn't it?

@StanLemon altering Physical genes won't change spiritual ones

Edited February 22, 2021 by Frustration

[StanLemon]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

The population of Luthadel was around a million wasn't it?

And how many people could say they knew an Allomancer? Brandon has said that by Era two that almost everyone would at least know an Allomancer which means percentage of the population of Allomancers was much higher in Era 2 and although Feruchemists are rarer than Allomancers it can be inferred that they are more common than they were in Era 1. Even if they are now only Ferrings due to interbreeding with Allomancy

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

@StanLemon altering Physical genes won't change spiritual ones

Do you understand what the basis of Eugenics even is? It's the controlled breeding of a population to increase the propensity of specific traits. It's literally what nobles in the Final Empire were doing. It's what Straff was doing breeding Allomancers, and it worked. Personally I'm against Eugenics for a great many reasons, even if it can have a tangible advantage like with Allomancy and Feruchemy but we have several reasons to believe from the books themselves that while not ethical and probably not useful for physical genetics, it's still viable when it comes to Allomancy and Feruchemy

[LewsTherinTelescope]

4 hours ago, StanLemon said:

By Final Empire standards? Yes, they are plentiful in Era 2

Something to note: "plentiful" still means Mistings are around one in a thousand, and Ferrings even rarer (and Twinborn obviously even rarer: Wax is only the third known Twinborn of his type ever born), according to Khriss in BoM chapter 12. Allomancers and Feruchemists were just super rare in Era 1 (but Allomancers tended to be sent at one another, so we get a false impression of how many there really are). 

[StanLemon]

1 minute ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Something to note: "plentiful" still means Mistings are around one in a thousand, and Ferrings even rarer (and Twinborn obviously even rarer: Wax is only the third known Twinborn of his type ever born), according to Khriss in BoM chapter 12. Allomancers and Feruchemists were just super rare in Era 1 (but Allomancers tended to be sent at one another, so we get a false impression of how many there really are). 

I mean, there is a reason I said by Final Empire standards. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

I mean, there is a reason I said by Final Empire standards. 

Yeah, I know, I was just trying to point out to people watching the thread that Final Empire standards must be really low 

[BenduLuke he/him]

@The Technovore @Frustration @StanLemon @LewsTherinTelescope Both allomancy and feruchemy act like recessive genetic traits which can be breed for.

 Both voidlight and anti-voidlight resist being added to the same gem or even coming into close proximity so trying to create a working predictable grenade out of them is at best probleimatic. yes I did get Raboniel and Lash's names switched sorry for the confusion, but at least you knew who I was trying to say. Anti-voidlight works better as a biological weapon, not really as a predictable explosive. Now that I think about it Shallon could probably produce anti-voidlight using her surges once Navani teaches her how to make it. Many of you complain about me speculating and yet it seems as if many of your responses are simply your own speculation on how the Cosmere works. Yes i have been reviewing the books again I guess I just have a different perspective on what I read than you do.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, BenduLuke said:

@The Technovore @Frustration @StanLemon @LewsTherinTelescope Both allomancy and feruchemy act like recessive genetic traits which can be breed for.

First off, it's not a physical gene TLR spent decades maybe centuries trying to get rid of it

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Twenty-Two

The Last Feruchemist?

Sazed is likely not the last Feruchemist. The Lord Ruler tried for a long time to breed Feruchemy out of the population, and it's highly unlikely that now the power would simply vanish because the living Feruchemists were killed. The genetic trait is still there, suppressed in the population, but it would eventually resurface.

That's not to say that the loss of the Synod wasn't a blow. That many living Feruchemists suddenly killed would wipe out a large segment of the population who could have bred Feruchemy true. However, the fact that many of the Synod were eunuchs made their usefulness in that regard less important.

Remember, however, that Sazed is struggling with depression. It's easier for him to see things in a depressing light than it is to see them in a positive light.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Sept. 8, 2009)

second off, we know that identicle twins can be born with different metals, the houses did not break down into one house = one power, so in all likelyhood breeding for a specific powerset will not work.

 

third we don't have a problem with speculation, we have a problem with unsupported speculation.

[BenduLuke he/him]

20 hours ago, Frustration said:

First off, it's not a physical gene TLR spent decades maybe centuries trying to get rid of it

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Twenty-Two

The Last Feruchemist?

Sazed is likely not the last Feruchemist. The Lord Ruler tried for a long time to breed Feruchemy out of the population, and it's highly unlikely that now the power would simply vanish because the living Feruchemists were killed. The genetic trait is still there, suppressed in the population, but it would eventually resurface.

That's not to say that the loss of the Synod wasn't a blow. That many living Feruchemists suddenly killed would wipe out a large segment of the population who could have bred Feruchemy true. However, the fact that many of the Synod were eunuchs made their usefulness in that regard less important.

Remember, however, that Sazed is struggling with depression. It's easier for him to see things in a depressing light than it is to see them in a positive light.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Sept. 8, 2009)

second off, we know that identicle twins can be born with different metals, the houses did not break down into one house = one power, so in all likelyhood breeding for a specific powerset will not work.

 

third we don't have a problem with speculation, we have a problem with unsupported speculation.

You mean like the unsupported speculation you just engaged in.

Your quote proves nothing only that Allomancy and Feruchemy are recessive traits.

Which Identitical twins had different metals?

No house started with a specific metal. All houses had all metals in their genes. Same goes for all Terris men. Even if identical twins manifested different metals that could simply be a function of cirumstances activating the different metals in their potential. (Allomancy requires activation not just genetic potential) All descendants of allomancers or feruchemists have the potential to manifest any metal and it is possible that circumstance determine which potential metal is activated.

Assuming that my speculation is unsupported is disingenuous of you. It is not my fault that you missed what I recognized in the Cosmere that you didn't.

I find this idea that Shards make a person invulnerable to be over estimating them. It has been shown that KR's are vulnerable and only the Windrunners or potentially Skybreakers have been shown to have advanced abilities for combat so assuming that Radiants could most likely win is unsupported in most cases.

Damaged shardplate has been shown to drain massive amounts of Stormlight and Kal almost got killed because of it in WOR. Healing can be countered by strikes to the right location or by the right material. Shard blades can be blocked by the right materials and can be inhibited by the right abilities. So defend how the magics of the various orders would stand up to potential Scadrian abilities if you can.

All the ideas I have put forward for the various twins are supported by the Scadrian tables of metals and abilities, and most are not far fetched. Admittedly my speculation of the abilities for Aluminum twins though possible based on the charts are potentially incorrect but fun to speculate on. Other than that one speculation category my ideas are very supportable and plausible. Some like steel twin compounders and Chromium twin compounders are direct quotes from the coppermind. So support how Rosharan magic is superior because from my perspective the shear variety and versatility makes Scadrian magic tips the scales towards them over all in nearly every circumstance.

what in particular can Rosharans do that cannot be countered by Scadrians? How do Rosharans cope with the vast array of tactics available to Scadrian's?

In addition Scadrian magic lends itself to a vast array of scientific development and advancement, more so than any other planet in the cosmere which provides another indirect advantage to Scadrian Magic. In all likelihood Scadrian's would find it far easier to incorporate and or counter Rosharan science than the other way around.

Brute strength (Rosharan's only advantage) only goes so far in a conflict with a foe that has a vastly larger range of abilities, and tactics.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

You mean like the unsupported speculation you just engaged in.

What was unsupported?

3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Your quote proves nothing only that Allomancy and Feruchemy are recessive traits.

With centuries even rececive genes will be removed.

4 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Which Identitical twins had different metals?

WoB

I misremebered it wasn't identical

Spoiler

Questioner

We've seen that Metalborn siblings can end up with different powers. What about Metalborn twins?

Brandon Sanderson

Can happen. Most likely, they will have the same power.

RoW Release Party (Nov. 17, 2020)

 

5 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

No house started with a specific metal. All houses had all metals in their genes. Same goes for all Terris men. Even if identical twins manifested different metals that could simply be a function of cirumstances activating the different metals in their potential. (Allomancy requires activation not just genetic potential) All descendants of allomancers or feruchemists have the potential to manifest any metal and it is possible that circumstance determine which potential metal is activated.

Circumstance?

Where did you get that from?

6 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I find this idea that Shards make a person invulnerable to be over estimating them. It has been shown that KR's are vulnerable and only the Windrunners or potentially Skybreakers have been shown to have advanced abilities for combat so assuming that Radiants could most likely win is unsupported in most cases.

Stonewards and Bondsmiths can boost their strength, on top of Stormlight and Shardplate

7 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Damaged shardplate has been shown to drain massive amounts of Stormlight and Kal almost got killed because of it in WOR. Healing can be countered by strikes to the right location or by the right material. Shard blades can be blocked by the right materials and can be inhibited by the right abilities. So defend how the magics of the various orders would stand up to potential Scadrian abilities if you can.

Give me a realistic Scandrian that could win, one compounder every century is not enough to stave off Roshar.

8 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

All the ideas I have put forward for the various twins are supported by the Scadrian tables of metals and abilities, and most are not far fetched. Admittedly my speculation of the abilities for Aluminum twins though possible based on the charts are potentially incorrect but fun to speculate on. Other than that one speculation category my ideas are very supportable and plausible. Some like steel twin compounders and Chromium twin compounders are direct quotes from the coppermind. So support how Rosharan magic is superior because from my perspective the shear variety and versatility makes Scadrian magic tips the scales towards them over all in nearly every circumstance.

How is Steel more versitile than Gravitation?

10 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

what in particular can Rosharans do that cannot be countered by Scadrians? How do Rosharans cope with the vast array of tactics available to Scadrian's?

Sit in the CR and Soulcast all major threats.

What tactics? Scandrial has no military experience.

11 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

In addition Scadrian magic lends itself to a vast array of scientific development and advancement, more so than any other planet in the cosmere which provides another indirect advantage to Scadrian Magic. In all likelihood Scadrian's would find it far easier to incorporate and or counter Rosharan science than the other way around.

Name a book that looks into the scientific ramifications of Scandrian magic, because I have a 1,000+ page one for Roshar.

12 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Brute strength (Rosharan's only advantage) only goes so far in a conflict with a foe that has a vastly larger range of abilities, and tactics.

Have you been paying any attention rather than dogmatically repeating yourself?

Range of abilities, no

zero tactics

Rosharans are replaceable, a Bondsmith, arguably Roshars strongest peice can be replaced in quickly, Fullborn will most likely never be replaced.

[The Technovore he/him]

Consider that it may be possible that there has been some polarization on both sides? Perhaps you both have overbiased in your positions due to over-debating?

I'm still firmly in the camp that both magic systems are perfectly viable and suited for victory against the other, and that whether one can defeat another is mostly based on the actions of Shards and individual leaders in the conflict. 

@BenduLuke I totally get what you're saying with Scadrian magic, and would like to add that in Era 2 it's likely that while any one combination is somewhat rare, the sheer amount of magic users would heavily outnumber Rosharan magic users. However, remember that the main characters we see in both Era 1 and Era 2 represent exceptionally powerful metalborn. Wax is considered to be the most skilled of his twinborn combination, and the main cast generally outperforms your bog-standard Allomancer or Feruchemist in both Eras. Now, of course, the same applies to the SA, obviously Kaladin is much more than the average Windrunner, but we see that while other Windrunner don't quite meet to his skill, they're still very competent, and the surges of Gravitation and Adhesion are still very potent for sky warfare, and in any open battlefield will vastly outperform the aerial capabilities of coinshots, and I would even go so far as to imply their flying machines as well. 

Also consider that we've seen Elsecallers capable of... frankly terrifying feats in combat. Jasnah has a scene where she just soulcasts the air above a group of enemies into oil, and then lights it on fire. Steelrunners might avoid that; but when a sheet of flaming oil appears above you, the Misting, Ferring, or Twinborn that is not super-speedy, you're going to get caught in that. Also consider that while we have yet to understand the capabilities of the Surge of Division, the opening scene of WoK shows a blasted wasteland of burning corpses, thanks to the Dustbringers. I've recently realized that the Surges are often severely underestimated in this conversation, a mistake because Jasnah has repeatedly shown Soulcasting to be extremely effective in any and all combat situations. Then consider combat against a Radiant Army with a Bondsmith that can open a perpendicularity. Radiants might die, but any Scadrian invasion force on Roshar would be crushed swiftly. Scadrial's biggest strength is actually subversion tactics, espionage and sabotage via the Kandra, but even that may not be foolproof with Elsecallers, Lightweavers, and fabrials and spren that can see into the CR. 

 

Also: Me, watching Frustration and Benduluke duel above the skies of the Cosmere.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

3 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

Wax is considered to be the most skilled of his twinborn combination

The fact he's most likely the only one alive probably plays into this too lol. He's the third known one in three-and-a-half centuries.