Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[The Technovore he/him]

I feel like Bigmikey's analysis is very accurate concerning Roshar vs Scadrian war doctrine. Scadrial has the tech advantage and the magic advantage compared to Roshar right now. Surgebinding + Stormlight has a lot of power but is a lot more restricted compared to Scadrial's delightful "Triad of Metal Magic". Now, that might be changing in the coming books, as SA has seen some foreshadowing that Honor's restrictions designed to stop surgebinders from literally breaking their planet apart has been failing. There's currently plot pointing toward surgebinders possibly being able to use their powers off-world (I mean it's basically confirmed to happen by Mistborn Era 4 so). Scadrians have the tech, they know how to use aluminum, and they do have plenty of geniuses and heroes on their planet, plus Thaidakar and Harmony (hopefully in the future he won't become Discord. That would be bad). 

Someone a page or so ago made a good point that Roshar's war tactics are laughable in the face of modern weaponry, but remember that Scadrial currently has exactly no war tactics. Like Bigmikey said, it's a matter of how quickly can Scadrial catch up in war doctrine before their tech advantage dries up. Now, this entire situation is entirely hypothetical, we may never see Roshar and Scadrial going to war, but I think both planets are being built up as having very distinct and unique differences that make it so that there can be no clear winner in a matchup. Either side could win, but it's up to the individual accomplishments of heroes to decide who actually wins. 

Also, if we're comparing BoM Scad with RoW Roshar, let's remember Roshar's size advantage. NoScad has Elendel--a single kingdom, and then a smattering of cowboys outside. SoScad seems to have a more robust population, we have no idea what their nation really looks like. Compare that to RoW Roshar, where vast swaths of humanity cover the continent in a variety of kingdoms. Roshar has over a dozen fully-functional and robust nations, Scadrial has 2, possibly 3. In a situation where Odium is defeated in the contest of champions, they discover that stormlight and surgebinding can work off-world, Roshar finds Scadrial, and (for SOME STRANGE REASON) they decide to invade in a couple years time with their armies of Radiants? NoScad at least would be broken and conquered very quickly. Teams of Allomancer mercenaries and security guards will be no match against advanced warrior surgebinders, especially if they're unlocked. It's not magical mechanics, it's pure experience and skill. The government falls, resources get disrupted, surrender is forced, within a couple weeks tops. I won't be so hyperbolic to say it would be an unmitigated Rosharan victory (again, Harmony and Thaidakar), but for the Scads it would be a good mirror for what the Everstorm did to Roshar. It would send them reeling on their heels and scrambling to form a resistance, and because Scadrial has plenty of their own resources, they'd be able to resist very well.

On the reverse, if in SA 5 Odium wins and Thaidakar and Harmony decide it's time for Roshar to die, they could easily rally resources and armies within a couple years and bring Desolations 2.0 to Roshar. Thaidakar's Ghostbloods have intimate knowledge of Rosharan magical mechanics, all it takes a little Scadrian teamwork and they'd have fantastic anti-investiture weapons. It'd be extremely easy for the Shard with a very active presence in his people (assuming his Intent doesn't stop Saze too much, or if, perhaps, Wax took up the Shard) to rally support, redirect resources, educate in the ways of war and magic, and bring them to bear against Roshar and wipe the floor with them. 

 Now, neither of those are likely to happen, at least until Era 4 when Roshar has the whole Odium business far behind them and both planets have immense strength and knowledge. Then, it would likely be a Cosmere Cold War, U.S. vs U.S.S.R. situation, and neither side would be able to destroy the other. 

[BenduLuke he/him]

19 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Roshar completely outclasses Scadrial in terms of magic and magical constructs. However strong and durable Koloss are, there are no more pure blood ones, so even if they were stronger than Thunderclasts with bones made of mythril and adamantium, they are no longer available.  And as far as Inquisitors there is exactly one. Unless Marsh is telling,  unless Harmony allows him to tell, they don't know how to make them anymore.  

Scadrial's technology advantage has only a little to do with firearms.  Nothing Scadrial has is any more complex as a modern fabrial; give Navani an uninterrupted hour with the thing and she’d know it well enough to have a working prototype before the week was out. Scadrial's greatest technical marvel is the same as Earth, mass production.  They can put a devastating weapon in the hands of every person on their side and still have leftovers. Both men and women since Vin pretty much killed gender bias on the planet.  If only Scadrial knew how to really wage war they'd slaughter Roshar.  But they don't.  And their magic is pretty low wattage compared to a Knight,  Regal or Fused. 

So again the question is, how soon can Scadrial develop real military tactics?  Can they do it before Roshar can adopt all their technological advancements and use them against them? I can imagine Navani telling her husband to capture a factory once she knows about guns. And another thing to consider.  Once a Radiant figures out how to get their spren to become a gun then the entire Cosmere got problems. 

Perhaps Roshar outclasses Scadrial in terms shear magical military force for some orders, but I think Scadrial outclasses Roshar in magical versatility and skill and isn't that far behind in shear military magic power. As for war turning Scadrian tech to war would be easier than trying to develop weapons from fragile fabrials. Scadrian era 2 already have more effective airships, fire arms, and projectile magics which will give them a huge advantage.

Renett is much more advanced than Navani at developing weapons both technical and magical, and her weapons can take a beating.

Scadrial already has modern military tactics evident from Alloy of Law forward evident in the tactics of the Vanishers and the Set.

19 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Square cube law means, assuming equal proportions, x2 height = x8 mass.

So if a 6' man is 200lb, a 12' man would be 1600lb.

Koloss are bulkier and heavier than average humans, so I would suggest around 2500-3000lb for a 12' koloss. Probably not several tons.

Still, being bipeds would put more stress on their legs, but that stress is fairly 'localized'. Leg bones would be thicker than direct scaling would imply -- but there's no reason to think the skull (which is no more stressed than a human one) would be extra-tough.

And the leg bones probably don't need to be as extreme as all that -- human bones have more strength than they minimally need in the direction the weight is applied, and koloss probably don't scale exactly like humans -- also, koloss gait might be different from human, which could help a lot.

Koloss are very strong, but nowhere near Shardplate strength. Dalinar uses a hammer in Shardplate that is difficult for two strong men to carry, so probably 150lb plus. Real-life warhammers were more like 5 pounds, so I'd argue Shardplate is about x30 normal human strength.

Allomantic Pewter seems to be too comparable with Koloss strength for them to be on that scale. Pewter is about x2 strength for a normal Allomancer, x3 flared.r... likely a bit more for Vin and significantly more for Elend, but not x30.

As for durability... well, in Well of Ascension Elend kills one (before he becomes an Allomancer) with a knife, and while he's had some training he's hardly a full-on warrior at this point. Admittedly it's a small one, but ... Koloss can be more resilient than default humans, and ignore pain in berserk rage, but I think there is a tendency to overstate their durability.

Koloss could wield those hammers the shard bearers use (some of their swords might be that heavy). I would propose that it isn't strength that they lack in comparison to Shard Bearers but agility, speed and regeneration. Given some of the feats Elend and Vin did I wouldn't put x30 beyond them, and Pewter doesn't just grant Strength, but all their physical abilities are increased as well to the same levels. Given the right weapons a Thug could stand up to most orders even of the 4th ideal. Windrunners and Skybreakers would have some advantage from the air, but a Thug marksman with a really big gun could potentially even level that advantage. (Pewter would grant amazing accuracy and ability to handle massive recoil) They really could pull a Rambo with a 50 cal. machine gun under each arm accurately. Aluminum alloy bullets, and game over radiant.

Elend was practically a full on warrior by the end of Well. The weakness of the Koloss in that instance wasn't durability, but agility and regeneration. Shardplate is durable but has weak spots too. The right weapon, at the right time, in the right place would put down even a KR. A Chromium twin compounder would probably be able to do that 999 out of 1,000 times and would probably look like Jackie Chan doing it.

@The Technovore I think it is more likely that Scadrial will develop FTL and reach Roshar before KR's will reach Scadrial. Scadrian investiture works everywhere without modification or conversion so they would have their full abilities where ever they go, but Rosharans would need to work to figure out how to make their abilities work elsewhere. If I am right that Scadrians will reach Roshar via FTL first the level of Tech they will have will most likely be at least decades and probably centuries more advanced than Rosharan tech. On other thing of note is that both Harmony and Thaidakar are aware of what is going on Roshar and are working to counter the possible threat. Of course I also think that by the end of SL era 1 Odium, Dalinar(Honor), and Cultivation will be allies and may be attempting to ally with at least Honor against other Shard Threats like Trell.

[Gisaku75]

20 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Square cube law means, assuming equal proportions, x2 height = x8 mass.

So if a 6' man is 200lb, a 12' man would be 1600lb.

Koloss are bulkier and heavier than average humans, so I would suggest around 2500-3000lb for a 12' koloss. Probably not several tons.

Still, being bipeds would put more stress on their legs, but that stress is fairly 'localized'. Leg bones would be thicker than direct scaling would imply -- but there's no reason to think the skull (which is no more stressed than a human one) would be extra-tough.

And the leg bones probably don't need to be as extreme as all that -- human bones have more strength than they minimally need in the direction the weight is applied, and koloss probably don't scale exactly like humans -- also, koloss gait might be different from human, which could help a lot.

Koloss are very strong, but nowhere near Shardplate strength. Dalinar uses a hammer in Shardplate that is difficult for two strong men to carry, so probably 150lb plus. Real-life warhammers were more like 5 pounds, so I'd argue Shardplate is about x30 normal human strength.

Allomantic Pewter seems to be too comparable with Koloss strength for them to be on that scale. Pewter is about x2 strength for a normal Allomancer, x3 flared.r... likely a bit more for Vin and significantly more for Elend, but not x30.

As for durability... well, in Well of Ascension Elend kills one (before he becomes an Allomancer) with a knife, and while he's had some training he's hardly a full-on warrior at this point. Admittedly it's a small one, but ... Koloss can be more resilient than default humans, and ignore pain in berserk rage, but I think there is a tendency to overstate their durability.

your statements are nonsenseI. I gave you a concrete example of how the increase of a single foot doubles the mass in a very robust man and you just ignore it because it does not correspond to your wishes.

Why should the bones of the legs develop in proportion to their size and those of the skull not? Just because it suits you? All the bones will develop in proportion so we are talking about a resistance at least 8 times higher.
You are vastly overestimating the Shardplates. Shardhammer will be no more than 7 feet long and in your opinion weigh more than a 12 foot long sword, by what logic? for a 12 foot Koloss a shard hammer is little more than a toy.

Vim and Elend use small swords, 7 feet maximum, slightly lighter than a shard hammer. And Elend kills a 5-foot Koloss, out of sheer luck, and stabbed him by surprise, so as to knock out his arm.

Ps. Andre the giant 7.3 ft 520 lbs, but he did not have well developed musculature.

and the world record for one-handed lifting is 172 lbs

Edited February 18, 2021 by Gisaku75

[BenduLuke he/him]

11 minutes ago, Gisaku75 said:

your statements are nonsenseI. I gave you a concrete example of how the increase of a single foot doubles the mass in a very robust man and you just ignore it because it does not correspond to your wishes.

Why should the bones of the legs develop in proportion to their size and those of the skull not? Just because it suits you? All the bones will develop in proportion so we are talking about a resistance at least 8 times higher.
You are vastly overestimating the Shardplates. Shardhammer will be no more than 7 feet long and in your opinion weigh more than a 12 foot long sword, by what logic? for a 12 foot Koloss a shard hammer is little more than a toy.

Vim and Elend use small swords, 7 feet maximum, slightly lighter than a shard hammer. And Elend kills a 5-foot Koloss, out of sheer luck, and stabbed him by surprise, so as to knock out his arm.

I would tend to agree with you. All the bones and muscles would grow and strengthen proportionally. Koloss have been shown to throw boulders and use thick trees as battering rams and yet both Vin and Elend have at times matched strength one on one with some of the largest of them. Not sure but imagining a Koloss swinging a tree like a baseball bat or charging with it like a lance and hitting a KR would probably hurt and do more than a little damage to the shard bearer. Someone like Vin who has access to better weapons and can use metal pushes and pulls to increase her leverage and momentum might be able to do much more damage.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Perhaps Roshar outclasses Scadrial in terms shear magical military force for some orders, but I think Scadrial outclasses Roshar in magical versatility and skill and isn't that far behind in shear military magic power. As for war turning Scadrian tech to war would be easier than trying to develop weapons from fragile fabrials. Scadrian era 2 already have more effective airships, fire arms, and projectile magics which will give them a huge advantage.

Renett is much more advanced than Navani at developing weapons both technical and magical, and her weapons can take a beating.

Era 2 is also like 20 years after Stormlight 5, keep that in mind next time you flex Scandrials strength, they are only slightly ahead with an aditional 20 years of development.

what happens with Navani bonded to the sibling with 20 years to work?

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Scadrial already has modern military tactics evident from Alloy of Law forward evident in the tactics of the Vanishers and the Set.

Scandrials fights look nothing like mixed arms warefare, it's not even war.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Koloss could wield those hammers the shard bearers use (some of their swords might be that heavy). I would propose that it isn't strength that they lack in comparison to Shard Bearers but agility, speed and regeneration. Given some of the feats Elend and Vin did I wouldn't put x30 beyond them, and Pewter doesn't just grant Strength, but all their physical abilities are increased as well to the same levels. Given the right weapons a Thug could stand up to most orders even of the 4th ideal. Windrunners and Skybreakers would have some advantage from the air, but a Thug marksman with a really big gun could potentially even level that advantage. (Pewter would grant amazing accuracy and ability to handle massive recoil) They really could pull a Rambo with a 50 cal. machine gun under each arm accurately. Aluminum alloy bullets, and game over radiant.

You overestimate Pewters strength, weight, not strength will determin your resistance to recoil. 

I might be wrong but I don't think Scandrial has evidence of machine guns yet.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Elend was practically a full on warrior by the end of Well. The weakness of the Koloss in that instance wasn't durability, but agility and regeneration. Shardplate is durable but has weak spots too. The right weapon, at the right time, in the right place would put down even a KR. A Chromium twin compounder would probably be able to do that 999 out of 1,000 times and would probably look like Jackie Chan doing it.

Maybe one has ever exsited, and we don't even know how F-chromium works, it could very easily be closer to Renarin's visions than Atium.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

 

@The Technovore I think it is more likely that Scadrial will develop FTL and reach Roshar before KR's will reach Scadrial. Scadrian investiture works everywhere without modification or conversion so they would have their full abilities where ever they go, but Rosharans would need to work to figure out how to make their abilities work elsewhere. If I am right that Scadrians will reach Roshar via FTL first the level of Tech they will have will most likely be at least decades and probably centuries more advanced than Rosharan tech. On other thing of note is that both Harmony and Thaidakar are aware of what is going on Roshar and are working to counter the possible threat. Of course I also think that by the end of SL era 1 Odium, Dalinar(Honor), and Cultivation will be allies and may be attempting to ally with at least Honor against other Shard Threats like Trell.

No, no no no no.

assuming Scandrail gets FTL sooner than Roashar figuring out how to worldhop with spren, when by the Time of Era 2 leaving Roshar with spren has already been solved.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Frustration

[BenduLuke he/him]

39 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Era 2 is also like 20 years after Stormlight 5, keep that in mind next time you flex Scandrials strength, they are only slightly ahead with an aditional 20 years of development.

what happens with Navani bonded to the sibling with 20 years to work?

Scandrials fights look nothing like mixed arms warefare, it's not even war.

You overestimate Pewters strength, weight, not strength will determin your resistance to recoil. 

I might be wrong but I don't think Scandrial has evidence of machine guns yet.

Maybe one has ever exsited, and we don't even know how F-chromium works, it could very easily be closer to Renarin's visions than Atium.

No, no no no no.

assuming Scandrail gets FTL sooner than Roashar figuring out how to worldhop with spren, when by the Time of Era 2 leaving Roshar with spren has already been solved.

No there is evidence of mixed arms tactics. I didn't say it was warfare.

No there is at least 100 years of more advanced tech on Scadrial in era 2 than Roshar era 1.

Most thugs are pretty massive and even if they aren't they have the strength to carry more mass if necessary.

There is not definitive statement of how F-chromium works, but we do know what it does so I am most likely right. Fortune is described as luck and anyone with a near infinite supply of luck would be nearly unbeatable even by atium.

Feruchemical Use

A chromium Ferring is known as a Spinner. Chromium is used to store Fortune. A Spinner filling a chromiummind will be unlucky, and can tap it to increase their luck.

Compounding

A chromium Compounder might be able to use chromium to have a nearly infinite supply of fortune and luck

Some people have worked out how to go to Roshar from elsewhere, but no one has yet worked out how Rosharans can leave especially with spren or stormlight. Very few have been able to go to Roshar and no Rosharan has been shown to world hop anywhere else in the cosmere. We know there is a barrier that doesn't permit Rosharan investiture to leave also blocking most from world hopping to Roshar and there is no guarantee that it will be overcome before Scadrial has FTL. Scadrial is advancing very fast and will have FTL which would be pointless if became possible to world hop everywhere by all but a very few near Hoid like individuals. The people we do see world hopping are ones like Hoid who are highly invested from elsewhere, and even Hoid probably can't take the Spren with him though practically being a shard himself maybe HE can.

[Frustration]

26 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

No there is evidence of mixed arms tactics. I didn't say it was warfare.

Where?

26 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

No there is at least 100 years of more advanced tech on Scadrial in era 2 than Roshar era 1.

Proof?

27 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Most thugs are pretty massive and even if they aren't they have the strength to carry more mass if necessary.

This tells me nothing.

27 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

There is not definitive statement of how F-chromium works, but we do know what it does so I am most likely right. Fortune is described as luck and anyone with a near infinite supply of luck would be nearly unbeatable even by atium.

Feruchemical Use

A chromium Ferring is known as a Spinner. Chromium is used to store Fortune. A Spinner filling a chromiummind will be unlucky, and can tap it to increase their luck.

Compounding

A chromium Compounder might be able to use chromium to have a nearly infinite supply of fortune and luck

Fortune is a spiritual attibute most commonly associated with future sight.

And you completely ignored the fact that maybe one has ever existed.

28 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Some people have worked out how to go to Roshar from elsewhere, but no one has yet worked out how Rosharans can leave especially with spren or stormlight. Very few have been able to go to Roshar and no Rosharan has been shown to world hop anywhere else in the cosmere. We know there is a barrier that doesn't permit Rosharan investiture to leave also blocking most from world hopping to Roshar and there is no guarantee that it will be overcome before Scadrial has FTL. Scadrial is advancing very fast and will have FTL which would be pointless if became possible to world hop everywhere by all but a very few near Hoid like individuals. The people we do see world hopping are ones like Hoid who are highly invested from elsewhere, and even Hoid probably can't take the Spren with him though practically being a shard himself maybe HE can.

1. Any non radiant/spren can leave Roshar.

2. You have given no evidence of why Scandrial will get FTL before SA 5

3. Hoid wouldn't go through the work of getting a Cryptic only to break the bond a year later. We have multiple WoB saying that he is ecstatic to be a full Lightweaver again.

[The Technovore he/him]

An incredible work of Alethi-to-English Translation has just been done over here.

I seem to remember Renett weapons being truly unique, but I cannot give credibility to "Renett is much more advanced than Navani at developing weapons both technical and magical...." after seeing exactly what Navani was capable of in the writings up there. Honestly claiming Renett > Navani seems to have not much more foundation than biased opinion. Which is fine, I'm pretty biased toward Roshar myself, almost purely out of preference, while trying to maintain some "academic integrity". 

In the end, I think the Navani-vs-Renett comparison doesn't work for a few reasons. First, Renett is a magi-gunsmith. She makes guns. Amazing guns that work great with the magic system at play, yes. Meanwhile, Navani is a theoretical magi-physicist. She's working out the exact mechanics of fabrials, and how they interact with metals, and discovering the secrets of the Cosmere itself. She and her army of engineers are replicating the surge of Gravitation, building flying machines, and she's discovered how to manufacture both anti-Investiture and mixed Investiture. Even more powerful is her political ability to rally literal armies of scientists under her direction. Renett irl would be the engineer that made the first repeating rifle. Navani irl would be Einstein making the thermonuclear bomb. Is one better than the other? Well, in terms of warfare, both were revolutionary and both define modern combat. But in very different ways that are hard to adequately compare. 

The other reason why Navani-vs-Renett doesn't work is the positions that each has in their respective societies. Navani is the Rosharan Tony Stark. Not only does she have the brains, she has the resources, power, and influence to maximize them. Renett, by comparison, is Peter Parker. A genius as well, but without any the resources that get her beyond producing specialized small-arms. 

Where would Renett be if she had the resources and power Navani has? What could Navani accomplish as "just another scientist" making a living on Scadrial? They'd likely be pretty similar to each other, or they could be dramatically different. It's difficult to compare. It's like trying to say a bear is better than a shark. You can make cases all day long, but in the end they're too far apart for comparisons to be fair to either of them. 

One of the comments in that thread there floated the idea that if Era 2 is 20 years after SA Era 1, then it's possible the Scadrian flying machines are based off of stolen Rosharan plans a la the Ghostbloods. Just a theory, but, if it does turn out to be true... kind of hard to claim technological superiority when your best stuff is stolen from the other side.

[StanLemon]

Wow, I've been away from this thread for a while. 

Moving on, first of all from the recent posts, just to clarify Brandon has said the Stormlight timeskip will only be about a decade. Which frankly makes sense with the 10 importance. During this time the approximate 2 years of Wax and Wayne will take place. Now as has been proven here on Earth, 10 years is a lot of time for technological revolution. However, we still don't know the limits of Southern Scadrial's technology. For all we know we haven't even seen the best they have to offer. For instance, their obsolete technology from the Hunter ship was still more advanced than anything else we've seen in the Cosmere.

Secondly, while it is true that Roshar has a much better history of warfare with military events. They are still old fashioned styles and we only have to look at WW1 to see how well those old fashioned military mindsets handle advanced technology, absolutely terribly. There is a reason Hoid is concerned about it in RoW. Adapting to such fundamental changes is difficult and not something that's just done. Otherwise we would have abandoned the methods being used in WW1 well before it was over, but we didn't. We can also see that even Roshar's best generals haven't fully adapted to having Radiants either and aren't utilizing those abilities to their fullest as of RoW as some threads back when the preview chapters were being released pointed out. Now, if we set this conflict at the time that WaW ends, then they may have adapted enough by then to fully tactically use Surgebinders. However I think it's disingenuous to this conversation to compare Roshar as it could be 10 years from now to Scadrial. The first reason is we still don't know what will happen in book 5 of Stormlight or book 4 of Era 2. The second reason is because while we know that Era 2 takes place between Stormlight 5 & 6, we don't know when. It's entirely possible that Era 2 starts only months after book 5 ends rather than several years after.

[The Technovore he/him]

Upvoting Stan Lemon's post because he's called me out in a very truthful way. The original premise of this thread was comparing on-screen Scadrian Magic to Rosharan Magic now that we've seen the Willshapers, some Voidbinding, Bondsmithing, and the Windrunner 4th Oath. Where this thread now is much more similar to the old "who would win?" post, which like Stan says is disengenous because we can't reliably tell what the battleground would look like in such a situation. Era 2 Scadrial is not equivilent to Era 1 Roshar, and until we see the end of SA 5, we have no idea how the two planets actually stand in comparasion to each other.

Spoiler

I still insist that outdated WW1 tactics is better than no tactics at all and do not tell me that Scadrial has war tactics because it is a planet that doesn't experience war it experiences espionage and shadow conflicts which could be an advantage to them but not on an open battefield or during an invasion but ANYWAY--

Even on the premise of comparing Magics it's still hard to compare because the majority of Scadrian magic combos has not been seen onscreen yet and the same applies for Radiants. Benduluke is forced to theorize on combinations that have no canon grounding yet, and we still don't know about the capabilities of approximately... six orders worth of Surges? 16, counting Voidbinding? Also having no idea what fabrials are capable of? 
 

I guess what I'm saying is, maybe in 31 pages, this thread has run its course. 

[ScadrianTank he/him]

7 hours ago, The Technovore said:

One of the comments in that thread there floated the idea that if Era 2 is 20 years after SA Era 1, then it's possible the Scadrian flying machines are based off of stolen Rosharan plans a la the Ghostbloods. Just a theory, but, if it does turn out to be true... kind of hard to claim technological superiority when your best stuff is stolen from the other side.

I don't think that Scadrial stole airship technology. In BoM, Jordis said that the ship they flew home, in the end, was decades out of date. It implies that aviation in the south exited for around half a century, give or take ten years.  The timeline doesn't match up. Then there is the fact that Rosharan flying machines use drastically different methods of propulsion. 

Edited February 19, 2021 by ScadrianTank

[Gisaku75]

7 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

I don't think that Scadrial stole airship technology. In BoM, Jordis said that the ship they flew home, in the end, was decades out of date. It implies that aviation in the south exited for around half a century, give or take ten years.  The timeline doesn't match up. Then there is the fact that Rosharan flying machines use drastically different methods of propulsion. 

Scadrial's airships are powered by ettmetal and soar thanks to Allomancy. They are completely different from Navani's ship. 

If we talk about technological improvement, Scadrial's ability to progress is immensely superior thanks to the medallions and unkeyed metalminds. With a combination of zinc and aluminum a simple Rioter can produce an unlimited amount of mental speed. Transfer this skill to the best scientists and you'll get human computers a hundred times better than any team Navani can put together. Do the same with your generals and you'll get unbeatable military geniuses. On roshar they are still on the abacus and use logicspren for clocks.

the introduction of medallions guarantees a huge advantage in all fields. you can transform any individual into a Feruchemist, all Allomancers into duomancers and go even further. Wax with a triple F-steel, F-gold and F-iron medallion can wipe out an army with a handful of nails and a pair of daggers.

Edited February 19, 2021 by Gisaku75

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, Gisaku75 said:

If we talk about technological improvement, Scadrial's ability to progress is immensely superior thanks to the medallions and unkeyed metalminds. With a combination of zinc and aluminum a simple Rioter can produce an unlimited amount of mental speed. Transfer this skill to the best scientists and you'll get human computers a hundred times better than any team Navani can put together. Do the same with your generals and you'll get unbeatable military geniuses. On roshar they are still on the abacus and use logicspren for clocks.

Mental speed =\= knows what you're doing.

If you don't know what to do all that is going to happen is you will run out of ideas faster.

Do you think you could build a working nuclear submarine without help from anyone else and your only advantage is you can think faster?

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Do you think you could build a working nuclear submarine without help from anyone else and your only advantage is you can think faster?

I agree the average person can't just do that, but I would note that "mental speed" in Feruchemy also comes with things like intuition and logical leaps, so scientists who already start off with a decent idea of things could potentially advance pretty much as fast as they can physically set tests up, if they have Compounded mental speed. Only solves things up to a certain point, because you do need to actually do the assembling, but it cuts out a massive amount of time that would be spent researching and theorizing.

[StanLemon]

On the talk of learning and development of scientific research. If the theory that compounded memory duplicates memories is correct, Scadrial could theoretically advance very quickly as teaching would be massively simplify and accelerate learning on Scadrial 

[ScadrianTank he/him]

2 hours ago, StanLemon said:

On the talk of learning and development of scientific research. If the theory that compounded memory duplicates memories is correct, Scadrial could theoretically advance very quickly as teaching would be massively simplify and accelerate learning on Scadrial 

It would be faster that way but not as useful in high-level theory and academia. As knowledge isn't the same as understanding, Unsealed Copperminds will likely help plenty of students through high school and early college but not in developing something new. But it's not like civilization won't be served by more people knowing integral table by heart.

Edited February 19, 2021 by ScadrianTank

[StanLemon]

41 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

It would be faster that way but not as useful in high-level theory and academia. As knowledge isn't the same as understanding, Unsealed Copperminds will likely help plenty of students through high school and early college but not in developing something new. But it's no like civilization won't be served by more people knowing integral table by heart.

This is where I disagree. The higher the base level of education is, the greater the stock of people who can contribute to higher level fields becomes. A lot of potential people in the real world often have to choose between working and spending years studying. I'm one of them, I don't have the time or funds to spend getting the degree in the scientific fields I want to get into and instead have had to devote my time towards working and making an income to live. Not saying that I'd be revolutionary in any regards. However if learning becomes a simple matter of tapping a metalmind, someone could quickly bypass much of the learning process and potentially come up with ideas and solutions where because of real world constraints would never have the opportunity before. 

[The Technovore he/him]

24 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

This is where I disagree. The higher the base level of education is, the greater the stock of people who can contribute to higher level fields becomes. A lot of potential people in the real world often have to choose between working and spending years studying. I'm one of them, I don't have the time or funds to spend getting the degree in the scientific fields I want to get into and instead have had to devote my time towards working and making an income to live. Not saying that I'd be revolutionary in any regards. However if learning becomes a simple matter of tapping a metalmind, someone could quickly bypass much of the learning process and potentially come up with ideas and solutions where because of real world constraints would never have the opportunity before. 

Well, if you're tapping the metalmind and F-Zinc simultaneously. There's a lot of decay in long-term memory for the first 6 days  especially when it comes to raw data and information. I think Brandon actually mentioned in a Sazed POV that he doesn't like to tap his copperminds much because of the decay factor. I guess it depends on whether copperminds tap into short-term or long-term. I suppose we'd better hope it's long term because otherwise you're basically wasting copperminds.

Anyway the point is that raw information and data (rote memorization of facts) tends to degrade very quickly in long-term, but conceptual and semantic understanding sticks around for longer. So you'd have to either tap a coppermind very slowly to make sure it all sticks, or tap it with zinc so you can process it faster to make it stick. Because humans tend to learn something permanently when they understand it completely and can fit it with their view of the world, not just when they "know" it. 

This is a really interesting point of discussion, talking about the ability to expand knowledge this way. That is definitely a plus for Scadrial and I hadn't considered that. That might be something we see in Era 3 or Era 4, because in Era 2 NoScad and SoScad are still split. Let's remember that unless Harmony invests more in Scadrial, we'll continue seeing a very small part of the population actually having powers. The main cast in the Era 2 books are almost all powered, but they represent an almost-population anomaly. Their society hasn't even seen a mistborn in a while (or am I wrong on that, are there a couple?). Feruchemy might end up being even a little more complicated because we don't know yet if there's a Lerasium for Feruchemists, and that's really where the most powerful effects of Scadrian magic lie. (ngl I kinda hope there is)

I suppose that what I'm saying is that while it's an amazing concept that we likely will see, it's likely not going to be as universally common or used to the advantage suggested here in the actual books, since it will be limited by the amount of feruchemists actually available and desirous to make them, and by the mechanics of memory itself.

 

Edit: Especially if you're trying to raise the base education level. Can you imagine the sheer amount of copper medallions you'd need? The harmonium required? The feruchemists required? Where will you get the Ferrings? You'd be looking at either eugenics to get more Feruchemy in the population or slavery for all Feruchemists. I can't see Harmony tolerating either of those options. Medallion-learning would likely be for highly advanced and specialized fields, research fields for biology and physics and the like. Where they could be used to pass expertise to graduate students from their mentors in the field.

Edited February 19, 2021 by The Technovore

[ScadrianTank he/him]

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

This is where I disagree. The higher the base level of education is, the greater the stock of people who can contribute to higher level fields becomes. A lot of potential people in the real world often have to choose between working and spending years studying. I'm one of them, I don't have the time or funds to spend getting the degree in the scientific fields I want to get into and instead have had to devote my time towards working and making an income to live. Not saying that I'd be revolutionary in any regards. However if learning becomes a simple matter of tapping a metalmind, someone could quickly bypass much of the learning process and potentially come up with ideas and solutions where because of real world constraints would never have the opportunity before. 

I do not doubt that Copperminds will contribute to more people having a higher level of education. Depending on how widespread they will be, there is even a chance that it will improve the education system itself since it won't have to focus so much on learning facts but applying them. However, I don't think that learning with Copperminds is as simple as tapping someone's knowledge on the subject from a Metalmind and getting a degree the next day.

Let's look at Sazed, for example. A lot of what he memorizes is text. His store of knowledge as a Keeper was repeated to him verbatim. At the beginning of the WoA, Sazed records the architecture of the Inquisitor fortress in two ways. One is storing the words he spoke after he finishes the thought, the other is storing his visual recollection. What we get from this kind of storage is a book on a magical USB drive. It is useful only to a point.

What is more interesting to us is the coin from BoM. It had a visual record, sound, and a hint of thoughts and deeper memories of the user. When experiencing this recording, Wax doesn't get how Kelsier knows that people burned all wood just like other villages and has no idea what a building reminded a person storing this experience. From this, we can infer that this type of storage works well with single, uninterrupted experiences. Now we have a magical recording.  While this is much more useful for our pursuit, it still doesn't allow us to learn easier than conventional methods.  

With these methods, we can now create a metalmind that will contain theoretical information on the subject, recordings of lessons explaining the theory, and showing its use in specific cases. The end product would be something between a book and a non-interactive online course on a subject. While this is undeniably helpful, it is nowhere near a point where a metalmind, or a lot of them, can allow one to bypass learning altogether. You would still have to practice, make notes and solve problems (or make things, if we are talking about a practical skill) on your own to become proficient at it. 

2 hours ago, The Technovore said:

Especially if you're trying to raise the base education level. Can you imagine the sheer amount of copper medallions you'd need? The harmonium required? The feruchemists required? Where will you get the Ferrings? You'd be looking at either eugenics to get more Feruchemy in the population or slavery for all Feruchemists. I can't see Harmony tolerating either of those options.

I hope that nicrosli compounding works in such a way as to allow one Metalborn to create many medallions of the same power. Otherwise, there will be a lot less magic on Scadrial as time moves on.

[The Technovore he/him]

25 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

I hope that nicrosli compounding works in such a way as to allow one Metalborn to create many medallions of the same power. Otherwise, there will be a lot less magic on Scadrial as time moves on.

Yea, it seems that Harmony, both for Intent reasons, and for self-preservation reasons, isn't particularly invested in Scadrial, compared to the insane amounts of Investiture running around Roshar. Clever workarounds like this would definitely be a boon for them.

Edited February 19, 2021 by The Technovore
Found a way to say the same thing with way less words.

[BenduLuke he/him]

22 hours ago, Frustration said:

Where?

Proof?

This tells me nothing.

Fortune is a spiritual attibute most commonly associated with future sight.

And you completely ignored the fact that maybe one has ever existed.

1. Any non radiant/spren can leave Roshar.

2. You have given no evidence of why Scandrial will get FTL before SA 5

3. Hoid wouldn't go through the work of getting a Cryptic only to break the bond a year later. We have multiple WoB saying that he is ecstatic to be a full Lightweaver again.

Almost all the engagements use modern guerrilla tactics with semi modern weapons.

Mass can be increased with armor which Thugs could use due to their greater strength. In addition a thugs strength would enable them to take a stance capable of handling the recoil of heavy arms and given their enhancement in all their physical abilities they could have incredible accuracy.

No fire arms on Roshar vs Cartrige weapons on Scadrial. Roshar at approximately 10th century vs Scadrial at 19th century tech based on arms technology.

I quoted the coppermind on Fortune and it says Luck not future sight. Future sight is associated with other metals.

It seems the only world hoppers are people who have investiture and certainly need someone invested to make the attempt. Which Rosharan's have ever World hopped? None that I know of. I have no evidence that even after SA 5 that any invested person will leave Roshar, but I have evidence from Brandon's comments that Scadrial will develop FTL which would be utterly useless if world hopping ever became convenient. Hoid may be one of the only individuals who could retain a Spren, of course I did say as much in my previous comment.

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

Mental speed =\= knows what you're doing.

If you don't know what to do all that is going to happen is you will run out of ideas faster.

Do you think you could build a working nuclear submarine without help from anyone else and your only advantage is you can think faster?

6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I agree the average person can't just do that, but I would note that "mental speed" in Feruchemy also comes with things like intuition and logical leaps, so scientists who already start off with a decent idea of things could potentially advance pretty much as fast as they can physically set tests up, if they have Compounded mental speed. Only solves things up to a certain point, because you do need to actually do the assembling, but it cuts out a massive amount of time that would be spent researching and theorizing.

6 hours ago, StanLemon said:

On the talk of learning and development of scientific research. If the theory that compounded memory duplicates memories is correct, Scadrial could theoretically advance very quickly as teaching would be massively simplify and accelerate learning on Scadrial 

Mental speed paired with F-Copper or given to someone with the appropriate education does equal knowing what you are doing. != is the symbol for not equal not =/=. Besides a Rioter/Sparker could learn anything incredibly fast and with application could retain the knowledge. Their limit wouldn't be how fast they can learn but how fast they can get access to information.

@The Technovore Einstein didn't design the A bomb, but he did develop the theory behind it. Navani is like a physicist expanding on existing knowledge like sound theory, but she was guided by the fused in that understanding or simply found new ways to apply existing fabrial abilities. Renett an engineer did much the same thing, but the level of Tech and understanding is much higher. Put Renett on Roshar and she would be like The Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, and there really is about that level of Technological difference between Roshar and Scadrial. Also Renett's expertise is in armaments at a higher tech level where Navani's is far more general but at a lower tech level in terms of weapons. If Navani had someone who's specialty was in projectile weapons like Renett to apply her general knowledge then she could potentially compete with Renett, but Roshar is still decades to centuries behind Scadrial in terms of Technology. Consider what comes into play when developing prototype weapons. Physics, Material science, chemistry, balistics, mechanics, thermo dynamics, fluid dynamics, gas expansion, and any number of other factors, plus Renett also needs to consider magical effects of her world in her prototypes. It would take her only a small step to account for Rosharan magic and arms.

@Frustration said that there is no evidence of Machine guns on Scadrial, but with cartridge weapons even if they don't have them it is a small step to develop them, and we know they have at least basic explosives so things like grenades are not far off either. 

I was thinking last night that comparing Scadrian magic and Rosharan magic is like trying to compare Mutants/metahumans with Lanterns. We see all kinds of divers abilities of varying strengths from strong to weak and everything in between on Scadrial like with mutants. Where on Roshar we see base abilities across orders with limited individual specialties within each order, but with a high energy fuel source like the spectrum of Lanterns or perhaps the Shazamily. With the potential variety of abilities on Scadrial there is the probability that there are Scadrians that no Rosharan can beat, and that many Rosharans can beat most Scadrians based entirely on their magic.

Edited February 19, 2021 by BenduLuke

[The Technovore he/him]

@BenduLuke I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on a matter of opinion, although I'm 100% upvoting for the Connecticut Yankee reference. One of Mark Twain's best books, and so underrated!

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Almost all the engagements use modern guerrilla tactics with semi modern weapons.

Moddern guerrilla tactics?

not like it's been the exact same stratagy since the begining but whatever.

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

No fire arms on Roshar vs Cartrige weapons on Scadrial. Roshar at approximately 10th century vs Scadrial at 19th century tech based on arms technology.

And based on medical technology/knowledge Roshar is decades ahead,

see?

not so simple.

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I quoted the coppermind on Fortune and it says Luck not future sight. Future sight is associated with other metals.

Is acosiated with other metals?

dude Fortune is a cosmere wide effect, it transends a specific metal, and it is used in foresight.

Reasons for believing that f-Chromium is luck are mostly circumstancial and improven. There is maybe, MAYBE one other time when luck manipulation is a thing, future sight is far more common, and thus likely.

and once again you ignore the scarcity of any particular twinborn combo

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

It seems the only world hoppers are people who have investiture and certainly need someone invested to make the attempt. Which Rosharan's have ever World hopped? None that I know of. I have no evidence that even after SA 5 that any invested person will leave Roshar, but I have evidence from Brandon's comments that Scadrial will develop FTL which would be utterly useless if world hopping ever became convenient. Hoid may be one of the only individuals who could retain a Spren, of course I did say as much in my previous comment.

Khriss has no innate investiture, and she's one of the oldest worldhoppers.

No one from first of the sun has been seen worldhopping either.

You realise you have to walk, acrossed an entire planet to worldhop right?

It takes weeks to get off world, not hours, FTL will never be "useless"

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

 said that there is no evidence of Machine guns on Scadrial, but with cartridge weapons even if they don't have them it is a small step to develop them, and we know they have at least basic explosives so things like grenades are not far off either. 

Roshar already has explosives, and easily made ones at that.

[ScadrianTank he/him]

7 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

@Frustration said that there is no evidence of Machine guns on Scadrial, but with cartridge weapons even if they don't have them it is a small step to develop them, and we know they have at least basic explosives so things like grenades are not far off either. 

The Vanishers used a rotary gun when robbing their last train. 

Quote

She was cut off by a loud series of shots, incredibly fast. She jumped back by reflex, ducking down, though nothing was aimed at them. Wayne grabbed the spyglass, raising it.
Marasi couldn’t make out what happened next through the darkness and the mists. And she was glad. The shots continued, and she heard men screaming.
“Rotary gun,” Wayne said softly. “Damn, these people are serious .”

 

[Gisaku75]

17 hours ago, Frustration said:

Mental speed =\= knows what you're doing.

If you don't know what to do all that is going to happen is you will run out of ideas faster.

Do you think you could build a working nuclear submarine without help from anyone else and your only advantage is you can think faster?

No but you can design it much faster and with the certainty that it will work when you go from theory to practice, that's what computers are for. A project like navani's flying ship requires tons of math to work. On roshar those calculations have to be done in mind by dozens of people over a period of weeks or months. On Scadrial you can do the same job with in a hundred of the time thanks to the Zinc that transforms all your engineers into human computers.