AirsickAviar

@isabigfishI feel this then would still give rise to my thoughts of an underworld in which certain masterminds are being either controlled or controlling here as people in the shadows, those rare ones. I'd imagine any sinister group on scadrial who even halfway understands spikes would only need like 4 spikes to potentially have a superhuman AI type mastermind to help draft plans. There really isn't that much powers in the way here, and the potential upsides are so valuable. Because it's not just mental speed as I thought. I did some searching for your metabolism references, and I'll finish there later, but this quote from Brandon Sanderson, is wow: If this is any way true, this is how I definitely see the shadow world behind scadrial playing out in the very long term. Too big of a mental advantage not to use.

@isabigfishI wonder if a full ferchemist or someone with the right spikes could get around this by tapping gold healing, or does that work on hunger?

I've been thinking a bit about various metals compounded we haven't seen. But mental speed (zinc), compounded to have a person be able to think 100s of times faster than a normal person, on all the time to the point of Savantism even and still compounding... I feel this is like a walking supercomputer, perhaps masterminding the criminal underworld and politics these select few people in Scadrial society, I feel it. But I'm also trying to get a grasp of these superintellects. How much faster are they thinking that is sustainable in burning rates?

In Sunlit we came to understand awakening some things like a metalmind perhaps some feruchemist put enhanced mental speed or memory into seemed to create an AI. Could this be done with a gemheart and similarly Rasharan invested objects to interesting effects, like a stone stuck to a wall to maybe interesting interactions? It may have just broken my brain a bit while I ponder it. Awakening bullets by a coinshot "seek the eyes" might already be broken enough figuring they could probably just retrieve them again. But awakeners with any level of potential surge level powers, even as a secondary option from objects could be something else. What exactly is the limit to what can be awakened, do we know?

We knew it was close, but all I can see is this passage from time: The next reference to it was after vin died, "it happened very quickly after that", I'm assuming because any restrictive force just stopped at that point. We know it wouldn't have been long, and perhaps it might not have been days longer, but either way it's still not the sound thing to do. Elend didn't know he had to burn it all right there in that charge. The koloss are only stunned at first when they are in their natural frenzy, similar to how in that state they build it up by fights among themselves. But not in the command of another mind, elend already previously proved he didn't need that build up, and could just order an instant attack. And ruin was better at it. As for ruin losing this way it was still only an outside force with nothing to lose who did ruin in, having little to do with anything other than elend dying and having nothing left. Which still might have happened anyway.

Even if the point is for a valiant last stand in which you burn off the atium, you do it best this way. You probably kill more along the way of the atium being depleted, and it gives time, maybe no help comes, etc. But to a dying last stand group, they'd all say they would love to fight through another day I bet.

He went out against a force all spread out because he wanted a glorious charge or something, lol. The atium is super valuable, allowing men to be practically untouched until it runs out. They had four entrances. 300 men with it... It seems to me the thing to do is to have squads of 20 or even 40 depending on entrance size to fight. This allows squads to move back when tired to rest and a fresh squad to move up. They had to come to them, plus huge bodies would end up creating even narrower confines soon enough. If they ever became too much a nuisance, another squad could be assigned to pull bodies past a certain point down the caverns. It seems to me 300 atium burners would be able to do this for a very long time, probably days before it ran out. Instead elend just rushes out forcing them all to burn it all at a quicker, less efficient pace. Heh

I was just wondering at the arcanum entry about electrum. Obviously seeing ones own future and being hit there or here changes what you do so it countered atium. Maybe it is a general anti-assassination power, with a few seconds use, it I find would be difficult to rely on unless you had the resources to burn all the time and who knows what happens when you get to an extent where you have an electrum savant, might it be minutes? Hmmm. We don't have much limits here. Atium was used more like what you see in the movie Next I feel, knowing what everyone is to do. But I feel even seeing what happens to you, it would be something like the movie Next anyway, because it had to do with him and it makes sense in my mind that way. But obviously it isn't that powerful, so I'm kinda wondering now... What are the limits of Electrum, do we even know from a q and a with Sanderson yet?

In the last empire we get a reference to the feruchemical ability to store age, and that's how the LR lived forever... By having the ability to burn the metal from his allomancy. But earlier trying to track the metal in question I didn't see it in the list? Iron: Weight Tin: Senses Steel: Speed Pewter: Strength Zinc: Mental Speed (underutilized fyi) Copper: Memories Brass: Stores Warmth (I forgot about this, also underutilized!) Bronze: Wakefulness Cadmium: Breath Gold: Health Bendalloy: Energy (some implications of food storage in this way are interesting from a wealth saving perspective) Electrum: Determination (needs more defined) Chromium: Fortune Aluminum: Identity Nicrosil: Investiture Duralumin: Connection Where's the one for age? Was it removed for more practical ones like warmth storage by powers when the shards were being changed and Sazed remaking Scadrial? Because I was thinking the ferring who could store age could indeed find a very good purpose of it: if they store it everyday from their teenage years to become the age of a healthy active 45 year old (or whatever you think the limit of prime living years is that you can accept, heck even a 30 y/o prime year athlete or whatever the number pro sports commentators say, done from the start), will give those years living acceptably, and then you start burning. So you would live potentially up to 70, 75 years of age? And living in the constant still useful years of 45 that entire time, being so used to what your body can or can't do by that point?

@alder24 actually the way f-iron can't ever be exactly zero almost makes sense at a quantum level for me. Like how if one could store body heat, I would imagine it would never be able to be zero entirely. There is no absolute zero, even empty space has stuff appearing and disappearing, energies. Nature abhors a vacuum/nothing. Even with nothing there is almost always something, even if little. That's what I see with this logic. And now I just realized how fun it would have been to have a f-body heat power, lol.

I'm not sure about stability, but maybe Protection? Not only preserving things, but the words, ideas and honor. And instead of Malice, Dread? Also, love to the chaos one! Blood for the blood throne! Chaos gods, lol

Sorry for the quote errors, can't seem to figure out how to remove reveal hidden things from my phone quote. Anyway; I can't help but notice your sources contradict you a little bit. For instance, the first one a fan asks Sanderson if wax could counteract a lashing by altering his gravity, Sanderson said he couldn't, because the lashing effects the gravitational acceleration, as you said. But I'm not trying to counteract the lashing, but add to it. If a ferring increased his mass, and also the gravitational acceleration were increased together, it would be to great effect. I of course realize that it would always be at the dictates and direction of the gravitational acceleration of the windrunner. But it could make for a surprising combo I feel.

I find it is perhaps 50/50? It depends on how it's stored in the soul I'd imagine, is it one attribute or two? I feel if it's one, you might need one, or the other? I do feel it's probably bundled though as you said, just, I wouldn't say it with enough confidence as to say I couldn't see it going either way.

What can all you add? I want to see if we can't create a really full and fun list. Things we can imagine are possible, but haven't yet seen on the page. 1. Ferring of weight storage + mistborn powers. One could pull natural metal ore from under you in many locations to create an earthquake creating power, but you'd need to become heavy enough to be able to push them, etc. 2. High level bronze flairer or Mistborn + any weapon that damages investiture, like the fuzed use. The way they can intuit not only through blocking investiture but sense even the types of powers around and what they are doing, to even offworlder interactions with sensing kel's spren Syl, I think they'd be able to do it as easily as piercing a copper cloud, and in this coming cold war between them, i feel mistings or more with these tools hunting the spren in fights is dirty indeed, and a lot more practical and easy than having to use the sand like they did in stormlight. It would be ak instinctual radar they could practically shoot at. 3) Feruchemy weight manipulation + wind runner lashing. That's a doozy, lash something like 5000 times heavier than it should be, but with 4x the gravity? With what can be done if these two were on the same side for a fight... That might be mountain moving, lol. Just need to do it in the right timing combo. I also feel this combo would also be a trick to get people space bound very easily. 4) Hemalurgy + spren connection. It cuts a piece of the soul out even the points it's invested, ie, investiture and steals it for itself. Since the connection to Dalinar's spren was almost stolen in the same way by the herald, might it be able to steal the connection to the spren itself? But like all Hemalurgy, it might be impossible in a fight with the moving parts, but if the opportunity was there, and you figured out the metals or placement.... Wow. I think it should be conceivably possible? I'm imagining spikes that force a bond to a certain spren... Might as even this be part of the terrible spren experiments in the last stormlight book? 5) Imagine a windrunner or edge dancer burning atium? I feel that might be pretty much as good in most cases to a mistborn with it. Already some of the most agile and hard to hit targets becoming next level. Tbh, I almost feel if as in the last wax series it becomes easier to make a thing that makes the Mistborn powers, the forces of Roshar might also steal that and do that too. And then taking spren, etc. I could see it becoming a very mixed bag of competitors over the long haul .

Ok, I'm on the phone, so I put this together on a bunch of free time while out and about, sorry about formatting and not being able to quote. This is a first response to @therunner, and will not have time to do much of a proper response to many of these other ones for maybe a day or so. I'm working, and this formatting is a bit random point for random point as they came out, but it should still be legible. Are you seriously using writer question answers for what ifs for straight kal vs Vin metrics, probably assuming fighting in the same styles and patter as a random encounter, none of this knowledge on who and preparation, weaponry, etc? And she wasn't even used to fighting so much a master spearman even, with most masters coming with her with knives or sword, at least those who moved with enhanced speed, and he would outrange her in ways she definitely wouldn't expect? But even he says at that point without those odd, she wins in the back alley random encounter with both not having all their war weaponry profiles. I expect this shows more of the grit of her overall talents here, and less all the tools, it is listed as a fight, and not her just cutting his windpipe at night after all. It doesn't matter if this is 'before plate', this is not at all the situations referred to, and doesn't answer a better set of questions. Oh, and your are not charitable with 'since you included keslier a godlike person, so that all mborns are him so this that means everyone is as good as kaladin'. No, I didn't use Kelsier, lol, I used Wax, Vin, and Zane, and Wax was not even a Mistborn, but a lesser that I used. Furthermore that wasn't about 'overall goodness of all mistborns are going to be l33t overall top Mistborn fighters in all of these things', it was specifically used to make a point about how it seems every other one is pulling off some sort of extreme agility feat every other day. It is that trait they tend to share so highly among just about any mb I can think of. Thank you for pulling yet another example out in the survivor, because on steel he was one with balance in them also in another level. And we don't know enough about the other two who had Wax's combo, the main sentences in question seemed to be mainly about their rarity, not their skills. When do much of the samples tend to aggregate, from most people of the airborne metalborne skillet, even without pewter, that does tend to reinforce my thoughts that I do think they are in another level of agility, by the time they start to pass Mistborn training, because do much of it demands it for them to survive and not fall, and hone the heck out of that trait. And you should keep in mind, that I even said I think edgedancers might be the order that is finally more agile in that category, but also how I think the metalborne can still manipulate their toolset for yet another critical advantage despite that loss. Oh, while I'm about it I feel I should point out there is a 5th metal I've been overlooking from the 2nd era that would also aid their overall agility profile. Speed bubbles, like Wayne uses them to absolutely flabbergast dozens of enemies trying to hit him. Imagine him using them while also flying about at high speeds. It would be like the pursuer, but only slightly less effective. Better even, since on top of being able to choose to come in flying when you leave a bubble towards another better angle, they can keep repeating the process easily, not having just 4 shots and then recharge which stressed even Kaladin. Yoy wouldn't be able to get too close as it would bring them in, so you launch your attack run, but at the same time with flight and all the others, so much better. But with this agility hack, you could always start your attack sweep from the worst angles for the radiant, and only maybe a few orders woul have a good shot of containing the mistborn in range of them to not bubble and appear at their back again. And I still don't want to even bother with the hack that is Atium. You are right, vs some orders they might have completely changed disadvantages, but vs most, played well, they should still have a toolset to gain an edge. What makes the Mistborn great, is that they have far more than just two surges and an effect to help them, which makes them able to switch things up, and not fail when relying on a different strategy. And what do you mean that Renarin as a good argument to counter Atium, even if it is true that he could, which I think he might? No. Atium would need that one person fighting them without even being a normal radiant, but also part voidbinder to win that fight? Don't you understand how silly that is? You might as well bring other partial mistborns into this then. Or the mists, you know, someone like Rashek, but maybe not even near his level, not even a full feurochemy, but gold, plus Mistborn? Or steel? I don't think you want to go down this road of 'but if we had a full radiant + extra on the side, we could beat atium', as by those same rules, the floodgates really open for the Mistborn victory. You don't even need fullborn, just a single Mistborn with the ferring of steel would give the power to give entire teams of radiants a very bad day. A bit like how Renarin is only partially one of the other type of magic user too. Also, if you need the one person in the entire world to be nearby for you to win, and you are planning battles and random encounters with an enemy? You've already lost most of the fights that would need to come in anyway. That is literally a one man crutch supposed to prove 10 entire orders are better man on man? If anything I'm your entire premise shows that a radiant could not beat a fully prepped mborn with Atium, without help. Not sure on the numbers of 20-30x strength only from dura comes in (though even with that number, you still admit it is enough, but it would limit my secondary effects of forcing off the shield). I'd like to see the math on that, was it stated somewhere a cap on dura? Because you then make it so that hours of amplification can only go 10x the normal amount of boost, there is something wrong there, very wrong. Can we accept that a very basic thing, punching full force can probably be done dozens of times with flaired pewter with a LOT left to spare? We've seen something similar before. So pretend hits at 100 pounds of strength, Vin flairs, hits a wall that needs 36000 pounds of pressure to break, and does it with 15 flaired punches (100x3x15 is 35k), each with the strength of three of her, and still has an hour of strength left. A bit would have been drained, but those where still basic punches, not anywhere near described as being able to burn it like that, full force be darned. Are you now saying, if she burned it with duralumin on another pillar of the same wall, she couldn't get it with a single punch, even though it would have went through the entire stockpile of pewter? It's explicitly mentioned to be 'ALL the potential of X into one'. The math on that would be 30x (your number), times 100, which would be about 6k short of breaking the pillar, which would be easy enough without the super boost. Something doesn't make sense. She should have far more than that, hours of small 2x to 3x work into one shot. Maybe it was math for outright lifting strength, if one could lift this much then, then this much there, compared to end strike power magnification, which to to the nature of how this foeced is derived, should multiply a little faster, with both figures having slightly different calculations. Where are these calculations you mentioned? I'd be very much interested to see them, and try and figure where they or me went wrong, because something implicit in the wording and implication of all of it being used at once almost always lands higher than that. I gave both the ability to know who the other is, with the assumption that this will be in some later war where both encounter each other, and it won't take long for either to figure out the others. I just think this knowledge helps the far more flexible fighter more often. Aka, the mistborn who has 16+ things they can do, not counting weapons and the like. Many of the things like speed bubbles, and superior agility is something that will be really hard to prep for, even if they wanted to. But fighting shardbearers, and knowing their small sets of power combos? It is a tall order, but the things you would be preparing for would be of a far more straightforward level. And no, with plate, they might be comparably fast, but even with the radiant trying not to get hit, the very agile Mistborn, if a veteran with using his various power sets, should still be able to land that hit more often than not. But note, even this I say many will still fail, and probably die. Just that it is more often than not. Why in the world do you assume they are less agile only because somehow the Mistborn wear less? The consistency of the showings between the better marks from both, while neither was wearing much difference. The tassels if the mistcloak aren't making it less than the bulkiness of a cloak, and it wasn't that Kaladin or Shall in were all wearing a bunch of fancy suits of armor. I'm gonna go check all of the horseshoe chapters in book later. You are probably right, but it was never how I pictured it mentally, surprising. It still won't win these fights though. It should still push with enough force for them to be airborne, then push an attack and switch out of range, before resorting to other things as mentioned and going for a rather aggressive airborne attack. And you can still push off of liquids, by the same manner you can die by hitting the water hard enough. It will take more effort, but with a constant pulling back in that windmill, a more powerful Mistborn should at least still be able to stay aloft even with doing it over a more liquid ground. I do think this might also have the effect of making them slower, but I'm not sure. I'll look into that later. I'm also going to do the math on the speed trips later, but I did say in this I was never fully sure anyway. I did say I was making assumptions on map size, mostly on travel time with the assumption due to the last empire being kind of world spanning to me, it would also have been farther given mid to top right. Still, in the combat field, neither of these high ends are likely to be seen by either. But it was worth pointing out, and thanks for going into some of the math. I like your idea about the nets, coupled with other abilities, and gunpowder based weapons to assist in delivering them, and the extra agility and positioning hacks? Yeah, I think that could really work well. Even to a degree where simply sword slashes won't completely leave you unhindered in a quick enough time. Why do you think making coins slippery, which they don't even touch, would be a problem? Even if they touched the ones in their pouch, somehow, which would be doubtful unless they already won, that would still only hinder the Mistborn until such a time that they realized that, and went to mental metal control methods to move the coins where they wanted. Also, why do you think suddenly having them go anchor hunting to begin with is such a big win for them? I don't think you understand this isn't something new to the mistborn knowledge, many have tried, very few have succeeded. Not even Vin managed to use coin depravity strategies on any of the two Mistborn she tried them on successfully, and she was metalborne and could push them away easier than any radiant. Even if they couldn't fly outright with horseshoe method, even an attack against the armor of the radiant without dura, would give a temporary anchor to push on, potentially losing balance on the radiant, and also pushing the Mistborn to where it is undoubted they could end up using their coins. Furthermore, this goes right into the mentality of why the horseshoe strategy isn't usually seen in combat. But it is no more complex than half of the combat pull push combos they do all the time. I highly doubt any of the radiants will be as good at winning by anchor as the Mistborn will be at not only being fine, even if they lose anchor support for a moment (so many times they do), as the Mistborn is at punishing them for that assumption. And it isn't even as if it does sink (which not many order can even do), that a Mistborn couldn't simply pull it back out on the way out, and when they see what is happening, none others should be lost nearly as easily. Traveling with the hammer, and flying about would not slow them down as much as you think, as their agility is often based on what they anchoring towards and against, and they are already the 'heavy' factor in that equation. This will not mess up their flight like it would nearly to any degree as it would if they where actively in the way of outright flying. The anchor will push against the both just the same. It's interesting though that was an actual oversight I didn't consider, but it turns out that it is only less of a factor in 'flight' and agility when being used by someone who uses their combined weight as the heavy pull and push anyway. Furthermore, when in actually combat, they then even have that hammer as an own anchor if they ever needed corrections, but they probably would rather keep it in most situations and use that mainly in a place where they could keep it in line with their own weight until needed. Also, I get the idea even if a bunch more radiants had plate, they still could not just make a run for an enemy stronghold, because it doesn't make narrative sense, and the powers of the enemy, while different, and not with plate, have some very powerful tools. They did have a lot more users of plate in the past, and barely won many desolations.

Hi, I'm Adrian, but have about 100 different user ids throughout the internet on one forum or website or another by now. This one just fit for here. The ThreeArmedHerdazian was taken, and then I thought of short stories for bridge four. Now, to begin: My path here is odd enough. I never used to read much. I read the basics, read the LotR and the Hobbit, all of CS Lewis's Narnia series, and the Eragon series (first one was awesome. Just which one knew how to go from there with a plan), and of course, short of those interesting pieces I went to mainly from movies, and had to keep at em till they finished, were the basic school ones. I kept hearing about the loooong but good fantasy series, the WoT, and with so many millions of words, that and the entire cosmere series, and various charts on literature over the years, and these two came up in my mind. And in the last year, I grew tired of books at work, since I listen to audio mostly on earbuds when I have time. So I started with an audiobook, for the first time. First A New Spring, then the entire rest of the WoT. I did not regret it. I was just sad it ended. So I read it again, and practiced with learning to hear and understand at higher speeds, and now can proudly keep up at my father's page speeding, for a novel a day, some in hours. At some 2x or faster speed, depending on narrator. But for the good bits, when I listen to a repeat book, I always have to find myself slowing it way down anyway. I have to savor the moment. Again. And maybe one more time After my second read through of that, about 6 months back, I decided to look more into this Sanderson fellow who finished the final 3 books (even if he did make that ending that punched me in the gut with my favorite character. HOW DARE YOU DO THAT TO ME?!), and had that touching forward at all. So I looked at the other books he wrote, read what some others said to read after WoT, like R.A. Salvatore's Malazan Fallen Saga, and Dune, which is totally on my reading list. Sometime soon perhaps, and some others. And a lot of 'Stormlight'. But I couldn't start there. In the end, I started Skyward, my first Sanderson book after WoT, due to my love for scifi in general, was was always into that, specifically Stargate. And a friend of mine into audiobooks got it, and also highly recommended it. So I went for it. I fell in love with that one too. I realized, this is more than a single genre good author. I should definitely finally just get around to reading more of him. Finished Starsight. Then life happened, and a few months later.... I finally just got all of the audiobooks, and started in order of release. Elantris was kinda meh to me. I loved Mistborn, I absolutely loved Vin, best protaganist of all his works, fite me. And that first book in the series was the best one of them, and again after the great series, another sad ending! It didn't destroy me like WoT ending did, but it's getting to be a theme! Will I read SA 5 now and see Shallon murdered, Kaladin dismembered, and the corpse of Adolin and Dalinor in the winds, only to see Cultivation take on the shard of Odium and Honor?! And will Spensa just come back and explode bk 4?! Ok, I am being funny, but it is how I feel in part though. Next was Warbreaker. And dear god, that was a Gem. Turns out, for any single novel, it was my favorite from him, but darn, Skyward came close. The odd, but beautiful thing? If it wasn't next on my list of BS's works, I would have never read it. 'What is this, some court of the gods, and a god apparently does not like his position, followers, and mainly about two princesses trying to make peace and get married?' 'Skiiiip, oh well, I'll suffer through it, I liked everything so much so far, and even elantris was still good enough, even if not great', after reading the plot summary. Dear god, that was amazing, the last half of the book made everything so worth it. And the best couple of all of BS's works if you ask me. I generally was excited to see Siri and Susebron work out in the end, to a degree I never felt to that strength in any other relationship, not even the WoT. At least not in literature, which I would stress, isn't all that exhaustive of a study. The ending was epic, even if I found 'summon long foreshadowed super army and take out enemy army', was a bit too foreshadowed, and was rather flat. I think perhaps they should have not arrived in time, had their home country sacked, some sort of sad state of the world, and the facts of life - but with that army, come out on top in the end, saving a bunch of people in both kingdoms. I feel it would have been a better ending. Do you say I am a hypocrite, since I didn't like the other sad endings? Sue me o.O Alkatraz was meh, but it was a kid's story. But I kind of found myself loving the Reckoner's. And I enjoyed that couple too. Maybe my second favorite. That's tough now comparing it so close to a paragraph when I was thinking of Siri and Suse alone... It was an enjoyable read. The Rithmatist was good, I would definitely read the sequel. Not everything I like in a world, but it was definitely different. In a good, refreshing way. White sand was good, got the graphic audio, as really my only option, even though I usually prefer more normal narration. My only bug is I don't even know if Hoid is in the audiobook, I was waiting for him. And I heard he was in the graphic novel. So who knows? I still can't help but think Skathan has the potential to be WAAY more important in all of this than just about any other character people don't talk about. And the SA, and then, all of the short stories, and then all the non-cosmere novellas. Almost all of them were good. I in particular, liked the Original. And also, of Cosmere shortstories, I found myself having listened to the Emperor's Soul like 4 times now. It is my favorite of that bunch. Silence is good as well, but just not on the same level. Now, I liked SA a lot, even to RoW, but I think as an overall saga, it's direction and writing as a self-contained story, simply was a large step down from both Mistborn and Warbreaker. I don't feel like it is fair to bring in WoT, since that is a collaboration, and it's really hard to judge that without similar circumstances. But yes, perhaps that too. That being said, there is a LOT I do like, even if the story itself I think isn't as good. So many elements of the worldbuilding is a large step up. I absolutely adore some of the spren and their bonds, like Syl, even though I feel they were completely underplayed for a large section of the story where they could have been absolutely brilliant and much more multifaceted characters. Even if they are still learning and childlike. Her coming to Kaladin with the blackbane was an absolute Gem. 'Look, I brought this to you, I went through all of this work', was such a moment that I do not think I will forget anytime remotely soon, it came so early, and is still one of the single best character building moments, or moments in general, that I have felt in the series. That was what made me fall in love with her as a character, but it seems for a couple more books, it tried to make me forget aspect. I liked shallon, kinda ok. Still better than Kaladin. But reading the theory about her mother on here... I almost now wish it true anyway, regardless of original plan. That makes her character so much more epic now for any more re-reads. Dalinar, Navani, and some of the other side characters as a team, really make these books much better for me. In the end, now I think I nearing my second re-read of all his main stories, and will eventually get to the WoT... For the Fourth time. Before the show premieres. And then eventually, getting to those other authors and books on my TD list. But before all of that, I had another thought 'what if I get on to the fan site, maybe, after looking up all this info from time to time in reading on the wiki, and post some of my character or power thoughts'. And then my post a couple days ago. Now I have introduced myself, and why I am here, fully. I hope you find my journey maybe as interesting as yours. It definitely probably isn't your typical brandon sanderson journey.

Anything that ends up leading me back to Shakespeare should be burned. Or praised, I still haven't found agreement with myself yet. As You Like It, Act IV, Scene 1 It encapsulates the spirit of this message I think.

He cannot stay. Fine, but kill, prison, say that he will deal with him later, any number of things. In all situations, the town, will be fine without Roshone, or whatever Kaladin decides. In all situations, the town still gets taken over by the Fuzed armies. No, the town will not collapse and be any more ill prepared with or without Roshone. And simply leading a town that isn't visibly collapsing into anarchy after a disaster is not in and of itself, a sign of competent leadership, others can play into that.

Pure forward motion, with assisted power and strength, yeah, they can move fast in shardplate. More speed than pure agility, but it is still part of the puzzle. They have the urge to move. Yeah, still not impressed. In terms of accuracy, Vin ended up trying to learn, and perfecting movement on floating on pin pricks, from Zane, who had the agility control to not move, at a perfect position in gravity, find it, on nothing but a single coin, almost like walking. As these mistborns pushed themselves, they could do things that only with their agility could they do, and they have ways to force their balance and body to a degree that shardplate, simply can't practice, even if the body movements would have more power to jump faster. They have combat feats, no one I can see has matched, from flying down through stairwells, around the outside, to over the floor of a fortification, while fighting some 30 guys (knowing they can kill, so not like these shardplate wars where they can tank everything, no, she was dodging, far more impressive in agility in the overall package), while then simultanouesly pulling on metal from various points, in that one battle where she ended up massacring some like thousand people in like 10 minutes. Granted, Zane did help clear some other floors. But she was hauling, moving at speeds around obstacles, between floors, and attacks, that if it was just the way Dalinar or Kaladin's "had an urge to move" in combat was described, I think she would have died if she was moving that slow. Granted, she was next level, but her potential was still low compared to a full mistborn like Elend, and when they start to come back (I think they will at some point), they will have her stories to really practice and take all of this to the next level. No, you are not going to win this point here I don't think. So many different fights, where we can see all the things they can do with their body in movement. Things they HAVE to do to survive, something that Kaladin and the rest have much less to worry about. It should be noticed, a non-full metalborn, but a twinborn in Wax, is doing things like flying about, and mid-air having the concentration to shoot guns out of people's hands, and does a lot of the same amazing things that Vin, Zane did. Maybe neither of them have the inhuman marksmanship down, guns didn't exist. But a huge amount of the same style showcasing of simple impossibilities with agility in combat in combinations of flying, coinshot movements with precision (that is always the key for them), are there. It seems to be a thing with them, and with Vin and Zane, they have the Pewter and Tin to help with the metalsight and pushing/pulling body precision of center as well. It just all gels, and we have enough different sources from different users of it, where anything short of Dalinar jumping outside, running at different angles around between 10 attackers, while launching absolutely stellar distant attacks, and close ones is going to cut if for me. No, they do not have the agility. They might possibly have better straightforward speed from leg power, and that is only in some circumstances. But that isn't the whole package of how much better I feel a full mistborn is in potential to them. Some orders might get it closer, like 3 to 4, with either gravity lashings or friction alteration. But I still feel in general, they are simply outclassed in the ability to simply exist in motion, dodging everything, hitting everything, aka - the upper reaches of dexterous combat maneuverability. I understand it isn't "everything" in that last hyperbolic sentence, as not everything can be, but it is the closest I have seen it to perfect anywhere in the Cosmere, and sometimes better sword training would have done more where the combat speed was more than there. Oh, and btw, when they need pure speed, when top speed actually matters, Vin traveled from the Fadrex to Luthadel, in a much shorter span of time shorter than Kaladin took from the Scattered Plains to 90 miles out of his hometown. Now the distance though, that we need to calculate. It's not like they both can't travel large distances in a heartbeat. Oh, that's all? Hang around the one guy in the world who can prevent atium from giving them the victory? Not even going to bother to respond to that one, I think just bringing up the question is enough, unless you don't. Anyway, why does it take 2-3 bullets at best to kill? Ok, we have confirmation, in the books of the stormlight archives, it takes 2, or 3 strikes of a shardhammer to BREAK plate. We know it isn't special metal, or a special hammer, other than it was simply made super heavy and strong that only a shardbearer could wield it. We also know that it takes about 2 guys to lift the thing. All of this we know. We also know that pewter flairing, with 3x strength, that should be more than enough to still even be agile with it. And with practice, probably even easier. So, now as a benchpad for the basics, fighting with basic forms, without any dura pushes, if they let them hit, we can see easily a mistborn should be able to break plate with three swings? That might even get them the victory vs an untrained noob radiant, but it would be hard as heck. But now I want to take this a step further. What do we know of Pewter? It can last hours, giving 2 or 3x the strength, depending on the flairing. That is through all the time you burn it. It isn't like tin, which can burn like 6 to 10 hours iirc, I may have my exact specifics off, but close enough. What do we know of Duralamin? It takes all the power of the store of metals in you, and releases it all at once, in a moment, with all of the power it has. So, for every second you were a few times stronger than you were. For the period of HOURS. It multiplies. How much do you think it takes to make that ridiculously high? And keep in mind, it will only take at max, about what, 3 swings, something super low, to actually break it? Granted, thousands might be a wild estimate, but even if it is more likely in the hundreds, it is still FAAAAR more than anyone would ever need to break plate, and it would be overkill enough to pound you right through. None of these facts are really contestable. It is how the magic, the metals, the plate, the shardhammer, everything, has been described, in all of their books. It is how these things should work, when brought together, by a mistborn who knew that they were going to have to be fighting radiants, and decided to have such a hammer made, and practiced with it, should be doing. Just because mistborns haven't need to ever use such an overkill use of duralamen towards a single point target in the past with a hammer, only means they never had to face something like shardbearers to force themself to have to learn to use their powers and abilities in ways to actually damage them. Like, really f them up. Because that is what the power we are talking about should add up to. Vin did something similar, and exploded a man's skull. Completely via unarmed means, without even applying that much effort, it was the dura+pewter strength. I don't even remember seeing shardplate do that, even when hitting unarmed foes, which we have seen. Now, could you imagine if a mistborn like that, was holding a shardhammer when that happened, and hit ANYONE with it? Much more, focused on a single point, with full force, and not a sweeping attack? Maybe no one else in this thread imagined it, but I almost immediately saw the possibilities with it. One hitting a shardbearer should be easy. And no, it would not take an absurd amount of Pewter. Just enough to have a normal load, that would normally last you hours. Like, not even a vial. And then a little bit of dura. What does that matter? In this world, I imagine this fictional fight is going to be in the future from this story, when they get to start seeing each other in these worlds in force. The next line of mistborns are undoubtedly going to know ALL about Vin, her story, and how she used her powers in really good ways. You do realize, she figured out how to use pulls and pushes to actually STAY afloat, and never hit the ground? With only 2 or 3 rotating horseshoes? Elend figured out the same thing in a few hours, but ended up using coins iirc (not horseshoes, I remember that for sure, but he was looking for them). Neither the horseshoes nor the mistborn ever touches the ground. That might as well be true flight, it might be magnetic cylindrical action, of pulling on one, pushing the other out, pushing on the other at an angle, then throwing the back one now forward, and repeat, but it is controlled, just as surely as a jet aircraft engine. That is flight, and so is that. This isn't the guided hopping they started with. Unending, controlled flight, and it doesn't matter what ANYONE does by making the ground liquid. Because they WOULD NOT have to touch it. These are the mistborns they will face in almost all certainty in the future. I think people discounting the ability to actually fly now probably are more trapped in the thinking of pure coinshots or era2. It's been awhile since we had a true mistborn, one that can both pull and push. You need to be able to do both to then avoid the ground as your anchor point. And then simply practice for a few hours, and then you can then master moving all of your anchor points till you can fly at hundreds of miles an hour with all your anchors coming with you across the country But it makes sense, both from a story standpoint and a mathematics standpoint from a basic level, knowing the attacks, powers and values. This is the if they were never seen dying in a black hole, they are to be assumed to be black hole proof argument. #Facts. #RadientsAreTougherThanABlackHole. Or maybe that they are all more mortal as a concept of the descriptions of their powers, but most of the characters have unending plot armor for what SHOULD kill a person who normally would have killed them with their powers? I can think of a number of times that happened. It wouldn't make logical sense for them to fear the fuzed at all if they were all as nigh indestructible as you claim. They might as well all march and take back the Alethic capital in force at this point, if you can't kill them by anything but the supernatural means of smashing their helmet and crashing their skulls. That makes no story sense though, so I assume they aren't nearly so powerful, which I think is the reasonable thing we should do. No, they have true flight at this point. Read my last reply to @Frustration for my rational. By the time such a fight like this is likely to happen for me, I would also imagine these mistborns would be practiced in the ways of Vin, the legend. And probably by a newer infusion of pure mistborn lines, if I had to guess. They would have the same flight that you could call any jet aircraft from having, not relying on the ground at all.

This is the one aspect of the books I felt could have had a lot of improvement. Though, there were a solid handful of good ones. As far as WoT Romances go, so long as no one dares say that four letter name starting with T with anyone, I think we are fine here Anyway, if you put a knife to my throat, I would probably say Faile and Perron. They were solid, they had quirks, and he needed to learn the lesson that just because she had a flitting emotion, does not mean she could not consciously tell herself no, and it was not betrayal, it could have saved so much trouble. Anyway, they both really did love each other, and they compliment each other in different ways, it was kinda cute, started rocky, kept with different bits of rockiness, but it all worked out. Shame there were two kidnapping plots, one right after the other one. Poor lad can't catch a break. It's not the the best sort of all-star romance I have ever seen on page, but it's definitely a solid one, which I grew to like quite a bit over my many reads of the story. And, I think, the best one, despite it in many ways, being the simplest.

I figured he was more than what was on the page, since he didn't talk at all for what seemed like a couple years, while possible, the more time went on, the more I found it suspicious, especially compared to the others through all that time from the same group. I thought it may have been some sort of spren or odium, or something factor that was using him for other ends. I was happy to be wrong, I think this explanation does it, and more, and it was quite a wholesome message to me, of the sort of problem those sorts of people tend to have IRL at times, that gets very little media coverage. This turned out much better than all of my other possibility hunches, and I wasn't close. I like it when a story does that to me.

Or, the end of the world is coming whether I remove the leader or not. And it wouldn't make much difference if I did. And it would be justice if I did. And if they don't know what to do, maybe as the storming knights radiant, you can give them some useful survival knowledge, with your medical triage, and commander's mind for emergency thinking. I don't know. Given the state of things, I just have a strong feeling, some people just might want to listen.

I think you may have missed my edit on the dexterity and speed, or if you didn't, what did you think? Hmm. I don't think it's not a close fight regardless, but I'll play. "How do Radiants beat Mistborn, they are incredibly fast, super agile, and they also have an infinite damage weapon that can kill them no matter what if they hit them with it". Oh, and just to make sure of it, with atium can even see what the opponent is going to do. And land that hit, 1000% out of 1000. And I don't even have to resort to that latter argument, while true. "Turn the stone beneath them to liquid", I believe I made the point when you first brought up stonewards, in my first response about it 'any smart mistborn, upon knowing the powers of the radiants, will be HOVERING IN THE AIR starting any confrontation with a stonewarden. How are they going to be sinking? Do they not know mistborns can fly, or did they forget? Also, rising up a wall? A little less creative than the coming out of the floor or jumping through a wall already in place like I expect a smart stoneward would try and do, which is why I suggested a smart mistborn would already be countering that. And I don't believe I said they were trying to make thunderclasts, just 'rock monster', but you can also add that to the tally of things stonewards cannot do, because I've already started that list in this thread. Well either Adolin or Dalinar was at one point worried about the concept of falling over, and it seemed adolin correctly judged it could end up killing eshonai, who had the upper hand on him the entire time. But few people just fall, so I don't see we will ever know that much. But since it has done at least massive damage every time (like how it finished off Gavilar, and largely damaged the rest of his armor more), I don't see much difference. Those 3 shardbearers that Szeth killed? That one lashing that was the main way to kill the one could be something similar to a fall. In reverse, instead of him being the one falling into something bad, it fell into him. Not quite the same, but I don't see how that shifts the point here. So if getting hit by a shardhammer a couple times cracks, getting hit by it with the force magnified by a thousand.... Does nothing more than shatter that plate? Not sure where you are going with this. Unless you think no attack possible can break shardplate and punch through it all in one go. But attacks have already done that. In fact, a dirty style of fighting in the arena was to mortally wound, or cripple people you didn't like, by gaming a certain sort of strike on a weakened plate section, that would puncture through and hurt them before the fight could be called upon the removal of the plate section. There is always a breaking point for everything. Even a point where the force coming through cannot simply be deflected from a shattering plate. Now if you think the force hitting a plate that would shatter if it was a hundred times less strong just goes away? Not sure what to think about that. Other than that makes no sense at all. And how many Mistborns died in the three books we got? 5? Possibly? Idk, it is about the same number. Without factoring in a lot more, like how in neither one of them, was there a great deal of them being put in harms way on screen (or the book equivelent of that), most such things are rare. Now also factor in the idea that in battles and desolations, we often had apparently had entire orders, where there were hundreds, largely decimated in the aftermath, if we are to believe the visions. Oh wait, I am going to assume back in those ancient days, those ancient radiants were all headshotted, cleanly, blasted open and their skulls crushed! Oh yes, that was probably it. Now it makes more sense. In fact, heralds, a good deal more stronger, seemed to usually die in a bit of a number as well, until that last desolation, when they got 'lucky' and only one died. But in the end, that turned out really lucky. But that is neither here nor there. The point is: they aren't nearly as immortal as you claim, even if only a handful died in the books so far in the current era.

First, I hid my last double post, after your first mention of that in the other thread. But I don't feel like going through all my double posts and doing the same thing. But I will keep that in mind in the future. Thanks for the heads up. Second, I would, If I knew that person was on one of those shows where they were too big and slow to get out of their own bed without help, like someone on those shows. The ABC is in this case is a general term, because you often run into a lot of situations in real life where a rifleman kills a rocketman very easily, who kills a tank very easily, but that tanks is who also can just trample the first rifleman very easily, who has no practical weapons against it. Aka, rock paper scizzors. But real fight scenarios in real combat with real soldiers are far more complex than that. So no, just stating one trait of anything, where dozens are often just as critically important, even before you get into conditions of terrain or side factors, is silly. That was my point. Vs everything else, being the one most easily capable of being trapped in an underground vault does not mean anything, if you are also the one who can just look at any living thing in sight and vaporize their very subatomic atoms with a glare (we do not have that here, but just to demonstrate directly how your analogy would fall apart one could, but also was trapped in that vault). By your own logic, that person would be unable to compete with a radiant, because 'they were easily trapped in a vault without a fight, and could not do anything, so they must be worse when fighting a radiant!'. No, that is not how this works. The mistborn has a LOT of other VERY useful tools for a LOT of situations, some of which where never even really realized to their fullest potential in any book yet (similar to the radiants). That does not mean because they don't have the tools to do one task (escaping a box with very little resources where they are concerned), they might not have exceedingly better ones for another (fighting a radiant in open combat). More or less what I said. The wall became locked in her tone, so that she was one with it in frequency. She could then manipulate the entire stone at will, in this more liquid state. Sculpt out of it... Make weapons out of it. Walk into it and talk to it (as she does later). Everything I said. It was not a part of 'snap my fingers, oh, you rock, go rock monster, run over there, smash. Oh, instantly transport yourself to make a wall right around trapping that mistborn. No, that was not at all how it was described. Nor was that how that surge was used by the fuzed, or in Dalinar's visions in a warzone. If they could just wave their hands and turn the very stone and earth of the battlefield to instantly surround, trap, or kill - you would see them FAR more often than we do, but we do not. Because it is never described as working like that. Perhaps less outright durable than any thug flairing it, but with the ability to heal, that becomes redundant, and yes, I would say that makes them MORE than on par with any thug. It makes them far beyond them. But that is as if you are comparing one metal that vs the whole package of a radiant, shardplate included, as if that is the whole argument. A mistborn has far more tools than that. A mistborn can take that Pewter, and suddenly not just be 3 times stronger, but 3000 times stronger for a split second, or have that durability 3000 stronger while connecting with that hit, if it is done cleanly. EDIT: I read it the first time and understood, but for some reason going back through while writing I missed it. This was about reflexes, wasn't it? No, I do not believe they are better than a thug with only stormlight, nor even on par with them. Maybe in plate they finally beat them. But vs a mistborn? Who has enhanced tin senses to help guide them? Who usually constantly trains vs others who shoot very, very fast projectiles at them? Flying in the air in such ways that make them constantly have to shift their weight in ways far more complex than simply shifting gravity, and learning to be so graceful as to stun a room between just two mistborns? There are like three metals feeding off each other more than just pewter that together, makes an agility package unlike anything I think any shardplate even can compete against. The only time I think it becomes comparable, or maybe even bested, is when we talk about the friction surge of the edgedancers for instance, properly trained. But even then I admitted this in my discussion on where and how they beat even them, but it is more about their air power then, and gaming against their friction via their other metals (like pushing and pulling on metals, tripping their set friction parameters, like how Lift fails, but a lot more direct, and controlled sabotage). In general, no, I don't believe for one second that a radiant is anywhere near as dextrous, and fast as a mistborn, properly trained, weaving in between attacks in combat, etc. It just goes super next level if you add in Atium, and then it's game over. Him falling through three buildings does not tell us much. Did you know such people have survived IRL, during earthquakes? Bizarre survivor stories, often done in 'safe' areas, where the walls and falling debris were less likely to kill them, like around doorways. It is not as if you necessarily need shardplate to survive such a thing, except for maybe the blow that might blast you through that far. It isn't like the entirety to the building hit him, no, probably just a few walls, and maybe a few random objects. And a distance. Keep in mind, even then it is tenous, it is completely random chance. Others we see falling cliffs, etc - in shardplate, and DYING. Either way, him surviving this does not tell us much. It is incredibly less impressive as even getting hit in the head with a shardhammer just 3 times. Much less the damage that we are talking about. Yet Eshonai, holding stormlight drowned. So many radiants holding stormlight... Died via other means. Yes, it is the most direct method of killing them, but hardly necessary. Punish them enough with a strong, decisive blow right through their chest for instance would not only debilitate them to the point like Jasnah on the ship (she fled to shadesmar because she was in REAL danger, not 'aha, you cannot kill my, my spren ivory said if I hold stormlight, you would have to crush my skull). No, the other attack did just fine in rendering her in such a state, that if such a person wanted to follow through, they could have killed her if she didn't escape them. The attacks we are talking about here, would far exceed the ability to end the fight, with the radiant either losing stormlight, and dying before being able to be healed completely, or simply incapacitated healing long enough where they can't protect themselves from that lethal blow. You act as if none of the radiants fighting all those fuzed care when they are starting to wrack up all those wounds and damage. They are far more mortal than you seem to want to pretend.a

Apparently I will endeavor not to talk about fallacies, as apparently that is an irritation, sorry. I will just try and explain it other ways, similar principle. I wasn't trying to skate by anything. I was just thinking, if they build a wall, they can charge in after them, sure. But in that same time, a metalborn could simply leap that wall just as well. Unless you are saying they built a wall in them, which goes back to the previous point in soulcasting, and obviously we are talking just a couple orders here. And obviously with the fighting in the air and ways to combat soulcasting, it was me talking generalities, about the two different scenes we are envisioning, between a radiant, and a mistborn. One, if they were dealing with a soulcaster, and the other if they were against a skybreaker or a windrunner. I figured that was obvious as well, but I have a failing in communication sometimes, and will try and make that clearer. A skybreaker or a windrunner would need to get in the danger radius of a mistborn first, not the other way around. I believe I already said as much, forcing them to commit. A elsecaller may have an advantage, depending on if they can just summon at a distance the air the mistborn breathes into fire. But for instance, if they have to get close enough to summon that wall, or like how Jasnah constantly relied on going out and touching a soldier causing that first reaction, weaving in and out of them doing that (like how it was described in the battle at the end of book 3)... Then I would say the mistborn can definitely get close enough in to kill them. It will definitely be a lot much of a roll of the dice than just about any other order though. If the elsecaller plays it smart, I say they win perhaps 80% of those rounds to be honest. It only goes to 100% if some of the limits I am not so sure about do or do not exist in the right ways on their power. And again, if this is about stoneward's walls, I still don't find them a threat here. Mentioning a limit out of bounds doesn't do anything though, not really worth mentioning. It doesn't give them a useful point of comparison in a fight, as an SR71 can go way higher than an F35, but one is far better at war in the sky than the other one, and it isn't the one that can go higher. Height in war is only useful if it can give you an edge, or in this contest, if it does. This? It gives them no edge, they can both fly, and focus on each other. And the mistborn would prefer this sort of contest I think, with the radiant trying to keep their distance, having more practice with it, compared to most of the sparring in the air they would be used to. But to finish them off, the mistborn would want that anyway. So again, back to square one. I don't think this is an argument for either the windrunnners or stormbreakers. Didn't consider lead balls. I would hope they wouldn't be dumb enough to choose them vs a metalborn :), but I see your point. It would be clumsy though. Due to the nature of their lashings, effecting gravity direction, and that heavy objects fall faster, it would really narrow their options. And only a few set of options at once. No where near the shear scope of this sort of combat in the tools of a mistborn. This is something they could deal with, and far easier than some of the other everyday training in mistborn sparring that I think they would have went through, this I can only really see going one way on a large scale. And it is not something I expect a radiant wanting to keep stormlight will suffer for too long, thus serving the purpose here to bring the fight to closer combat. Why I don't disagree, it is a hard ask. A lot of radiants are slippery, no pun intended. It's just I have full faith that mistborns can hit hard targets, as they also are freakishly agile, quick, can also fly to at least catch up or harass wr/sb's and getting them to either give up and leave, giving them the battlefield, or risking getting into a closer confrontation, in which I still think, the metalborn at least has a better than even chance. At the very least, not a bad one. I find this true vs most orders, despite their good sets of abilities. And in outright flying speed, given the rate at which Vin and co when they mastered the full portfolio were able to move through the empire with only flying horseshoes, they might even have the better top speed. Idk though, that would probably take some figuring out on the 'how long', and more importantly 'how much miles does this journey translate to', but with an even scale of the maps on my mind, I always figured them faster, but not with a degree of certainty. In that case, I could see another adjustment where the strikes would be done in a manner to be able to pound a shield into submission. Result? Broken hands. Reprieve, enough for more metals. Even a shield isn't going to stop all of that kinetic energy. I could even see it coming with enough force to hit that shield where it itself will hit with enough force to hurt. Pray that the radiant expects the force on the shield, because if he is holding that sucker improperly braced... It's the difference of a stunning attack, or that of crippling your arm altogether. Such incredible shard hammer attacks, with the strength of someone who already has 3x the strength of a man, hundreds fold, is going to pack one hell of a whallop, when put on a hammer point. No matter what shield you are holding. That energy needs to go somewhere. Chances are, it sends them flying, or at the very least. That still serves the mistborn. They would probably be better served in planning for such a strike, and striking first. They have the shapeshifting blades. I still don't think they have the reflexes of a mistborn, but those blades have possibilities none of them seem to have mastered. They will win more often if they try not to make this a power contest against a pewter+dura+warhammer strike. In that case, they will lose more often.