AirsickAviar

They win, or they don't. They either miss, or they don't. But the mistborn's have the better speed and agility here vs most radiants. But getting hit by the equivalent of a shardhammer with the equivalent of at least dozens of shardbearers worth of strength is going to end the fight, if it lands. Trying to pretend otherwise is a bit silly. Yes, a Dura + pewter push, with such a weapon would have that power. To pretend otherwise is to not understand one or both of those metals being burned. Due to the nature of the mistborn, and all of the extra abilities here, I have them hitting that when they are practiced, more times than not, vs most radiants. And btw, 'just clipping them', will still hit them like a mack truck in this case. It might not kill them, but it will probably give enough of a jolt to give the mistborn time to remetal up. A more direct strike, will simply win it in the mistborn's favor. So again, it either hits, or it doesn't. Healing in this context for the Radiant is irrelevant.

I have to say, I never sat and thought about Dalinar's motivations much until reading this thread. But these are the core arguments in them that have convinced me. Dalinar was forced to grow via artificial means, and that doesn't necessarily make him a good character, but a new one, created by them. I wouldn't necessarily say this makes him as he is now, a bad character, he is what Cultivation made him. But if one were to judge his life in the context of everything, I would say he is terrible, and it is easy to spot how he was the planned champion of Odium. The only reason he isn't, is because of Cultivation. That being said, a lot of changes in people IRL, happen due to outside random chance. Things that if they didn't happen, would have left them bad, or outright evil people for a lot longer, even till their death. So it is worth looking at it from that point of view as well. Either way, this has been an interesting read.

I want to reply to the one above this two, but might as well quote the second response as well. First: It wouldn't risk 'destroying the town for petty vengeance'. Where are you getting the idea that by removing Rashone that the entire town would descend into anarchy? Him leaving absolutely no one in charge couldn't even do that, nor would it make their chances any worse when the voidbringers would show up anyway. On account, that they were already in the worst of the leadership positions - aka, under petty Roshone. Sometimes, especially in some disasters, bad leadership is actually worse than NO LEADERSHIP. But the second point is, Laural was a good leader, and even in the culture who didn't like leadership, even in our own histories of similar cultures, there is almost always a tradition of 'if the power is taken, and no male heir is left, and the line can exist through the direct lineage of a female heir, that line will be chosen', even if it mandates them marrying, or forced to marry someone they don't even like (in the most misogynist of them) to continue that line. As it stands, we already see precedence on what happened when the last land lord died. Laural for a few weeks WAS the ranking light eyes in the town. And surprise, surprise, it didn't fall to total anarchy and killing everyone in sight stealing everything either. And arrangements for a replacement in time was still very possible. Also, I realized I didn't respond to the first pages 'but Kaladin still hated Roshone in the next book' points for some reason. I think a couple people tried to respond to me with that. That makes no sense, he still ignored his crimes for dumb reasons, and was actively trying to make sure he didn't get punished for them, even to the point of Roshone dying at Moash's hands in like the first 50 pages of the book. It kind of made little to no sense, and just seemed to be a convenient out for the author to take the onus off of Kaladin for the obvious choice. And made sure he couldn't make the moral choice later too. Now it could just go to the stop Moash and end the suffering plot. Him disliking Roshone after that (and that is about as strong as I will put the phrasing that it seems to use for him, who seems to forget everything he did about Tien before that), changed nothing, nor removed how dumb the excuse was.

You do realize shard hammer was just a weapon designed to be wielded by a person in shardplate who did not have a blade, by mundane technologies as they had no idea how to make a shardblade? IE, I have a strong suspicion it is just a really tough hammer made of really good, but normal metals. But so heavy, no normal person could lift it an use it without shardplate. Nothing the Scadrians could not recreate exactly, and knowing the abilities of mistborns, probably even make a better version than a shardhammer for this purpose. And they could wield it without needing the Dura. That just makes it go so far beyond it....

Going as high as they do, over the tops of towers and having a bird's eye view of a city, is high enough. Enough to clear any extra helps for the surgebinding, and still bring all the weapons needed in the pockets of the mistborn. At that height, what weapons a windrunner going to use on them? I don't see them reverse lashing a couch in the air. If they brought bows or something like that, the mistborn should just disable that first, without needing any duralamin. Beyond that... Typical lashed things like furniture? That is a weapon for the windrunners when they brought a bunch of stuff to lash. At these heights, the windrunner and skybreaker both would have to get closer than the mistborn to do damage. But I do agree, in so doing that, they will be more vulnerable. Though, the skybreaker could simply break apart the projectiles. I could see a lot of games though, feigning strength, keeping duralamin, from the first hit, to a bunch of duds disintegrated, until a close one, that moves far quicker than expected. You would still have to plan the hits though. I would imagine they should bring vials of the stuff. If the proper distances are maintained, the mistborn should keep out of attack range of the surgebinders, for the second or two it takes to refill their metals via vials, since they would be having a greater range of attack themselves. They would have to get through the wall themselves. If they are soulcasting, they are not flying. I expect a mistborn will be at this stage. And this mistborn, would be safe enough where a second or two disabled shouldn't kill them straight off. Besides, these shots aren't even met necessarily to kill the radiant, only force them to commit. If they aren't willing, then keep at that safe point. Using a duralamin hit with a mace on shardplate shouldn't take out a mistborn from a fight anywhere near what it took for Vin to have broke her leg though. Provided they landed it cleanly anyway. My point with the legs is they shouldn't have to do what Kaladin did when he broke his legs, or even necessarily what Vin did. The ideal attack to take advantage of that awesome strike would be to have better tools than either of those situations used. Like what you just pointed out. In this world, the Mistborns would have discounted their daggers long before this point in the world.

But that is that exact a beats b which beats c does not necessarily mean a beats c fallacy I mentioned. Yes, if resorted to no powers, than a mistborn loses, what of it? If it is about potential in this fight, know that 2 mistborn took out an entire fortification of soldiers, and killed like 1000 soldiers in just the span of 10 minutes, and Vin then might as well have been the one to fight an army by herself, even if it really did drain her and take her out of the fight of energy for some time (but consider, to do the same amount of damage on the enemy, vs the odds she had, not even old Dalinar surrounded by the Parhendi even came close. And he was also largely brutalized and drained just as well. No, if it was vs fighting armies like that I would have taken Vin every time). But this isn't who can damage an army. This is about hyper powered fighters vs hyper powered fighters. This isn't about 'what if we take away ability 1 and ability 2, and who has the most value? No, in a fight, if ability 1 and 2 are so good they can take the place of the other not having 1, 2 or 3, then it doesn't matter. You trying to make the point like that is fallacious. I don't care if Radiants specific extra abilities make it harder for them to be captured. In an everyday combat situation, that ability might be much less useful than others. She joined the stone, going to a frequency where it was malleable. She joined it, became it, and was able to even be absorbed into the stone, talking to it. A large section of stone, but not doing to it what you are implying here. She wasn't just summoning a fresh wall to smother everyone. I think you really rate what she did more effectively for combat here than I think it properly demonstrates at all. Others with the same ability in the Fuzed, if they were near that powerful, really, really lowballed their showings then in that same book.

I agree. They make a mistake, and they are dead. They are fragile. But either's primary strike in this case would end it. This is a first to land that strike contest. The radiants definitely have more options to strike, but the mistborn they have the advantage of the dexterity and speed combo to be able to land a hit that would still defeat the radiant of even the fourth oath, except for a couple orders (friction manipulation), that probably can beat them in that department, but then they would have the flight advantage. And given how little things in the way tended to trip up Lift, and the ability to easily manipulate metal and where it is at (they could get an edge to where to set up that strike point for this attack), I don't see a point where a veteran mistborn who knows what to expect from these radiants, would not be able to pull it off more times than not.

I'm confused. Was I mentioning something where a mistborn would try and capture a radiant? If this is some A>B, and B>C, then A>C logic, then understand, that is fallacious. Just because one can be trapped more easily, does not mean that translates to battles against others just as easily. The two are very different things. When it is done, yes. Since you are mentioning this in this way, I am going to assume you mean Jasnah's near instant soulcasting touch, where she simply palms soldiers in the one battle for the wall killing them instantly. She can kill some at a distance, but she definitely needs to have some distance factor, or she wouldn't want to have gotten in as close as she did many times. But she can do much of it at a distance, it does seem to be up in the air for me as in 'why I had elsecallers and bondsmiths as my possible orders with an advantage, depending on the full range of their powers', which seems to be nebulous at the moment. As for stonewards, are you saying they can instantly surround people with stone at a distance? That is not how we have seen the surge work. Not from Dalinar's visions or from even the Fuzes's glimpses of how they use what would be considered the same surge in combat. Which should tell us something. No, those fuzed with the same display of stone powers would not kill a mistborn in an open field, they would be prey with equal knowledge of the other's abilities. Being able to jump up from walls or surrounding floors and surprise them, encasing them in stones and the like, would do them no good for the flying mistborn, waiting for them to reveal themselves and act accordingly.

And Lightweavers, but not nearly as naturally as elsecallers, the lords of the CR where the radiants are concerned. I forgot about that. But in the case of veterancy, and they just disappeared in the cognitive, I would imagine the mistborn would simply fly away, at speeds the radiant could not catch up with. Ie "if they are going to sit where I cannot get to them and attack, I will get to some place they will not easily find me to soulcast weapons against me". And they could do that plenty fast enough in this battle where both know each other's abilities. Going to point out two things here, the first 'one of the reasons I support the radiants so heavily', I would add, even if you can prove one order at 4th oath does have a decided edge, which I think might even have the advantage the depending on the powers of elsecallers and bondsmiths, at best you are only proving a smaller subset, much less than the majority of the Radiants at the fourth oath, have an advantage. That in fact, does not prove Radiants stronger at that level. Only some of them. Second, are you trying to say stonewards create stone, or would come from the stone itself and surprise them? A smart mistborn would be gliding at least a little in the air vs a stoneward anyway to begin with. Or do you mean an elsecaller soulcasting the air to stone? Then that goes back to my first point there.

Vs most radiants, it is enough to end the fight when applied properly, and I have faith in the pewter reflexes + steel abilities to put them in the correct position far more than not, in the hands of a veteran mistborn to land it. While it is true, using their legs would shatter them, as pointed out, they don't need to use their legs. This becomes a battle of two with battle breaking attacks that will end it if either side lands it. Hence, my 50/50 estimate vs the 4th oath, with the edge only going to mistborns in the battle of veterans, who know what they are up against, and know how to exploit that ability. Also, failing to see your point on the Two orders that can straight up fly... Since I was on a conversation on full mistborns, I would point out that Mistborns might as well fly into, what did they like to call it in 2e Scadrial? Ah right, 'The Ascendant's fields'. Aka, the sky. The best of them are completely one with the sky in description, especially with all that pewter enhancing their senses and agility to a level that I do believe in these contexts, are usually described as better than the simple stormlight consumption. That being said, I don't think your average mistborn is anywhere near as good in the air as Vin was, or even Elend. But then again, seeing the descriptions of the battles between skybreakers, windrunners and fuzed, it is clear to me that your average windrunner or skybreaker is also no where seemless as good as Kaladin in the air, much less the fuzed with thousands of years of practice. If the Skybreaker or Windrunner is of the fourth oath, and are actually running into the sky, I would imagine the best option would be to use something like coinshot + duralamin, hitting far harder than a gun blast. It might not break the plate, but over time I could see it doing that. And enough to make them try and commit instead of just running. With practice, having that extra pewter handy when they get angry enough, and then you can end up using your reflexes and landing that critical blow of many thousands of times the strength of a human blow, with a very powerful weapon. As for the orders than can escape in the CR. Not sure how that helps them 'win the fight'. It is much harder getting back. Leaving in this case might as well be a win for the mistborns. And if you go by the two orders who might 'survive such a hit', as the ones who win this fight more often than not, I would counter those are the two that the mistborn can simply fly, where the truthwatchers/edgedancers can not, while eventually the mistborn just pounds them into submission, as mentioned, it should be possible over time. Enough duralamin, and enough projectiles and strong enough anchors. And if in a battle, the destruction of the mistborn should far exceed that of those two if they were then trying to win that battle for either side, with neither side in the end being able to effectively kill the other, I would give the supporting edge to the flying monster. Which I think is the huge advantage the mistborn has over every other order but the two flying ones comes to think of it... Making a stone wall will probably only protect you, but it wouldn't win you the fight either. Seeing the example of mistborns in simple traps like that, I don't think you would contain them. All the while, they are still flying around. So in the end, you get maybe the bondsmith, if he can somehow still/neutralize the mistborn's power. Or maybe soulcasting, if it is as purely lethal as 'just from long distance, transform the air around them into lethal ash'. But somehow, I don't think it is going to be that valuable.

I can't recall the exact amount, but there was a sane limit on it. He very deliberately DID NOT go full out, because his POV decision 'not to make it flashy, and expose himself to the crowd', can't recall the exact thoughts on his words, but something like that. So no, he didn't come with a full 100 lashing's light speed kick or something if that is what you are thinking. No, it was just a strong enough one to cause severe damage, without being obvious. And shatter his legs. Oh wait... We almost know certainly that pewter burning can cause that exact thing when not being careful... That's lightweight work here. The point this is addressing was a post that said if someone hammered a radiant's head in, it wouldn't matter. I said, it would. And claiming because Renarin healed it, doesn't for most radiant fights here. Healing a single stab wound in the spine is far, far, faaar less impressive than repearing a smashed in head... As I said, it was a slight correction on someone else's post (not sure who), who simply because X radiant with special healing factors, far more impressive than most radiant, survived something, that suddenly having any radiants head smashed in wouldn't end most all radiant fights in this matter. That was a ridiculous argument that I had to correct. Yes, IF (that is a big if), a pewter wielding mistborn got a clean hammer strike through to the skull of any radiant, they would be out of this fight, even if we could imagine they, if left with enough time, could possibly heal that (and that is another big if, as we KNOW they are not immortal, a certain amount of lethal damage to the brain should do it every time). Good correction on the 1080 feet tall, even though that wasn't nearly as tall as it was (it was clearly described as not a skyscraper, but enough where Adolin barely could be as tall as it's shin. So, 30-40ft range probably). I remember a shardbearer going flying, but didn't think so much on the fight. However, that still doesn't matter here as much, as the forces I think you are missing here about the power of the strike I am thinking of. Which is why, it is far more than triple, when flaired. I am talking about a DURALIMIN BURN. Not just 'walking around for hours far stronger than normal, like 3x stronger than normal with my flairing'. I am talking about having hours of that enhanced strength, burned all in one moment, giving them potentially THOUSANDS of times the strength and speed of them normally, all in once, draining all of their metal, focused on the point of a hammer designed to smash through shardplate. That will send them flying just as well, and it would hurt far more than that fall, and it would be so impactful that yes, they would have time to take that now spent pewter refill. Provided it landed correctly, which if they were on pewter, that should have made them graceful enough to land that...

I think full mistborn > 3d oath Radiant almost every time. I think for mistings or ferrings, depending on the type of radiant, it really becomes toss ups vs 3rd oath radiants, with most victories going to the radiant with his shardweapon, save for the few ferrings/mistings who landed that really strong combat ability and can use it properly. I am going to say I think it becomes closer to a 50/50 vs a radiant of the 4th oath. With the ability to have Duralamin of course. Without Duralamin, Radiant wins this most of the time at this stage. With Skill and Duralamin, knowing the strengths and weaknesses of the magic styles being even and complete, I think then the mistborn would probably hold the edge (instead of early war random fight, I think long term, after having perhaps fought on many battles with or against them giving them experience and knowledge after years), the mistborn will probably win the fight more often than not vs a fourth oath knight. Atium makes this too easy in infinite supply, so I am not adding it. I don't think people are giving the credit Duralamin properly deserves here. Though first, just a small corrections to some of the posts I have seen. Claiming Shallon wasn't massively debilitated from the arrow to the brain and that all radiants can heal right back, because Renarin simply shrugged off the thunderclast is stupidly naive. In that very chapter, it was stunning to Adolin, who noted he was healing massively faster than the other radiants he knew, ie: What was shown to be enough to take other radiants out of combat profency could be healed by Renarin quick enough. But only a couple of orders have progression... So no, making that an all radiant thing is not an argument. That at best makes 2 out of 10 orders of radiants able to take that kind of damage and reliably still win a fight after that. And we have no confirmation that same is even true to the same degree for edgedancers, though that is likely. Yes, I am pretty sure if you break the head, against most radiants, if you get that far - you win. At least if they use that time to strike decisively and end it from that. The problem for the Mistborn here, is actually getting that far in the first place. I do think shardplate really makes it so that only a competent mistborn can hold a victory here with any strong possibility, and even then it is a back and forth sort of thing. Why do I think this is possible? Because Kaladin damaged shardplate from a triple lashing KICK in the battle in the arena. A Duralamin hit, with Pewter is much stronger than that, and would not take them out of the battle as much as it did to Kaladin, and then if you add other things like reinforced feet or other strong objects, like their own design of a similar thing to a shardhammer (not actually shard metal, but something they just created to fight them with normal tools since they could not find how to build shardblades, but it still damages plate when you have that assisted strength)? Oh yes, shardhammer like weapon + pewter to go right around the swings of the radiant, and then they get hit with a full duralimin boosted hit from that weapon? If being hit with it normally cracked it, where the next would break right through, I would imagine this hit would at least break through it entirely, making the next strike decisive. And I would imagine the most powerful mistborns could make that area hit with the force of a 100 meter drop, easily, on that small surface area. And we already KNOW - that can break shardplate completely, causing death. From similar hits, we even see shardbearers (on the shattered planes), thrown back from powerful hits dozens of feet, and having to reorient themselves. So this would give time to take more pewter in that delay. And while of course, we know that a radiant could heal that, so they wouldn't die. But it would take out the shardplate, and even trying to heal it would take a HUGE investment at that point of stormlight, making them far, far less effective to be able to continue the fight at that point. I don't think a Radiant who is not a very competent and trained veteran would really last long if this simply blow lands, they would lose. But I do think a strong fighter, let's say, Adolin or Kaladin, would be able to take that blow, and still put up a fight, knowing what to invest stormlight on, and when not to. It would give them that wake up call to be far more cautious, now trying to win with skill, and speed only, and not hindering them with so much unnecessary stormlight investiture in their shardplate. Remember what Vin did to a skull with pewter + dura, and knowing that she isn't near as strong as pure-line mistborn. What could Elend have down with a similar pewter burn? We haven't see displays like that even when people with shardplate punched into people, which has happened, for comparison. But you need Dura to actually make this work. EDIT: Also, are we forgetting that Duralamin enhanced steel pushes can launch buildings when caught between a strong enough anchor point? Even if we argue that they cannot effect shardplate, if they manage to get caught with someone projecting that power onto them with other, heavy enough objects like what Szeth did, it could be much, much worse on them than what Szeth did to several shardbearers when breaking them in such ways. Granted, only the very, very rare mistborns would be this level strong. Or someone with the right twin combos, like Wayne. When he used his mass enhancements. Which actually might be just about as rare, but he did completely smash that building :). Could have almost as easy, chucked entire metal pillars at people, or shardbearers, and probably kept more of that mass he used....

His action had nothing to do with spheres (but Kal should pay that now too, but at this point in the story, that all would be pointless). His justification was that Lirin 'let him lose his own son', wrongfully, so he went out to try and remove Lirin's son. By forcing him into a draft in which wasn't needed, and he was obviously a poor choice for, and didn't even let others sub in to get the quota instead of Tien, which Kal offered to do. Now this isn't direct murder, I've said as much. But in this case, it is a case of severe and delibrate negligence, so it could be negligent homicide. Or at the very least, manslaughter. He was involved enough in putting him in harms way, something he knew he was doing, and if he had any sense to look into the matter like a person in such authority SHOULD do, knew he would be one of the least likely to make it. He did it anyway, because he was angry. So yeah, that blood IS on his hands. And given his mindset, and given what he already did with Moash's grandparents? Yeah, I am very suspicious he wouldn't have done it anyway, if someone gave him a time machine and showed him that it would happen. In fact, at that point in time, it would have made him smile in all likelihood. It was an act of revenge on him, misplaced. And Kal is totally right to blame him. Maybe not as an outright murder, but as someone who still deserves some punishment for it.

I agree, most of Kaladin for most of his years would have had the urge to kill him in a direct manner. I am saying Syl's honor dynamic probably would have forced him to try something else. And while Sadeas got away with treason by the letter of the law, Alethi sensibilities were still ruffled in this alethi culture that is not the same as hours, to feel a righteous sense of justice to try and get some sort of revenge for that, from Dalinar, Adolin, even Kalodin there. Roshone broke no law, but what he was seen doing would still have a similar reaction, even from that cultural dynamic. As for the same mission, if you are right where he absolutely had to do absolutely nothing concrete, it would still have been better for him to say 'I will get justice for my brother, but later'. Instead, it was more 'you are a bully now beneath my notice, and I will never do anything else about it', in internal conversations. This is a very key part of the problem. He doesn't need to actively do anything per se, and I even laid out the groundwork I would have been fine with him FORGIVING Roshone, if it was done well, as I said in a couple posts now. This was not done well.

He wouldn't need to drag Roshone to trial. He needs to make an attempt to start the regulations for such a trial so others might finish it, as it stood most of the kingdom was still assumed to be largely in control of the Alethi at that point. He didn't even make an attempt at the minimal effort to get justice for his brother, which he wanted to do for years, because he just came to an aha moment of him being nothing but a small time bully (who still is the bully responsible for his brothers death). He already seen enough to understand Laral should be able to run the city, seeing what she already displayed in his current visit. Furthermore he knows enough about the competencies of most in the town... I hardly think he would need to find a lot of time to 'find someone suitable', even if he did detain Roshone on the spot. Which again, I am not even saying was the action he should have taken, but he should have done SOMETHING for it, even if only getting balls rolling, rather than just dismissing the entire thing. And no, punching and forgetting is not something.

I actually agree with this, and understand it. It is more a criticism of my take on the writing, wearing down the story, not the reality of these sorts of mental health issues themselves. While someone who truly went through some of that sort of stuff in real life, might in fact NEVER be over it to any satisfactory way. But since we need him to get over some stuff in a narrative sense, none of us I think, save for some small subset of readers, will be interested in reading a 20 book scifi fiction on someone's bouts with depression to finally win over it. Some might, but after awhile, it just grated on me. It has nothing to do with whether I think him getting over it was realistic. In fact, I think in this specific case, the book sped it along beyond what I think most real people would do. But over the course of some 4 books, and the same near predictable, but more importantly, frustrating responses, that weighs down the whole thing for me. I suppose I just am not into those sorts of stories.

Did someone miss the joke that was brought up about my username, or am I just confusing the last set of exchanges in this thread?

Silence is pretty good, and not as much older as some might think... Who has had her own trials and dilemmas of the sort that would make her understand Kaladin to a point. I think her demeanor straightforward, but intelligent enough thinking would definitely knock the right sort of things straight for Kaladin, where I think his problems lie. That's what I think personally, but boy, I think that could get interesting. Yes, this is what I would consider a weird ship, but one that just might also work. That being said, I am not entirely sure I am deadset on 'shipping' anyone, that was never my thing. But I wanted to come up with an oddball choice here, thought about it, and something that could work on another character also fresh on my mind in another thread. EDIT: It wasn't until after posting this I had the thought, what of the timeline? Since I don't know if the novella is before or after SA, any given age of Silence to Kaladin here is irrelevant. No clue. Still going with it

This was exactly the time, he was on a mission to save his family, and they were alive. He had free time, in which at this point, he could do something like that. Since he had free time, he figured what better way to fill that in the mean time than to investigate what the 'voidbringers' were up to after they escaped the local cells. He couldn't just fly back to the tower, but there was no absolutely pressing mission of specific order in the meantime, though his eventual goal was 'back to tower'. Even Dalinar agreed with him doing what he did with the parshmen based partially on a rational that he had nothing better to be doing on his way back. He could have went to secure his parents and brought in Roshone for at least some sort of trial, or at least attempted to start doing this at the stage in time of his being there. And since this is about him, and his decision making, the fact that the parshmen come in and take out Roshone in a few more days to bail him out of that decision himself is nothing more than an about the point, if anything, it is a god out of the machine to save Kaladin out of his moral dilemma so he doesn't have to.

I get that. But it still comes back as a refusal to seek justice. The ideal " I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right. ", has no extra part where 'I will refuse to right wrongs done by those who have done wrong, simply because I hate them, and have to protect everyone I hate'. Like, out of pettiness had his brother indirectly killed, which is at least a case of manslaughter. No, he simply ignores him because 'he has seen real evil' (quote from the book), and 'Roshone is just a small time bully'. That doesn't even fit in with the oath, or Syl's magic connection to a source of honor from Kaladin's feelings. As for Kaladin's feeling on this matter, his choice is as far as I am considered, seriously out of character. Even if I can accept that maybe Syl, through the nahal bond, and honor bound, would decide not to kill him outright in an act of vengeance. But to simply IGNORE it for some falsely perceived greater value? That is something not only out of character, mind mind boggling to me, the reader. I could even accept Roshone being forgiven outright, if it was set up properly, with the right motivations. These? This doesn't even make sense, and it's dumb. Also, I don't really want to see him forgiven, but it would still be better than this inexplicable decision.

By the Lord Ruler! I did not think anyone would catch that. Well, it is all spoiled now ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Well, just to start this off, to get it out of the way... I think he is my least favorite protagonist, made up for the fact that I absolutely adore his always present friend, Syl, and wish we had a lot more of her. Anyway, on to Kaladin. My thoughts on him and depression, sacrifice, and oaths of protection: As someone who originally started reading all of Brandon Sanderson's works as an extension of my love for his wonderful work in the end of the Wheel of Time series, I have to say, in a lot of ways, I find Kaladin to be amazingly similar to Rand. From a 'darkness within', suffering from several bouts of what I would simply consider chronic mental health issues, to the need to protect everyone, to even having in the end, having to resolve that through visions from someone in their past that they loved, telling them something along the words of 'let go, we can make this choice ourselves to sacrifice'. Not going to spoil the specifics on where it happened when BS wrote it in for the Memory of Light, but in this spoiler area, one should recognize the vision before Kaladin here before saving his father and getting oath #4. I just think it was done better with Rand, I didn't really get much out of it here seeing it again. It seems to be a theme with him that makes less sense than in the former. Perhaps we simply don't know much about him, in 'the child of tanavast', and he might be more close to Rand than I think, but still... The best we get is darkness he had as 'melancholy' that his brother drove away, and he had to fight with ever since, as maybe something with chronic depression of a specific disorder? I was trying to narrow down the list of possibilities for mental disorders that it fit, but in the end I just gave up on that as too much effort than I was willing to put into it. It followed him all the way through the chasms and beyond (Syl, you were awesome there, my favorite scene from you, then that sort disappeared from you for a good while after that). There doesn't seem to be much progress on that, short of a few points along with sworn oaths, and ever back and forth with no real change from him and Syl, to mask the actual need for progress on that phase of his story, until like book 4. It would have served me better I think, if this went faster, and took less time away from interesting other story developments. My thoughts on him, his home village, parents, Roshone, and Moash connections. I truly get that he didn't want to go talk to his parents about his brother's death. And his guilt from it, it is something I have seen before, understand, and know that some sorts of people might just want to avoid the hurt altogether, and run from it in such ways. But he was interested enough to still go back and try to help him when he realized there might be trouble. So why didn't he send them money when he got rich enough, on what might be two occassions so easily possible? They were in a different sort of need. Ok, I get he might not have thought about it, which is regrettable, but it is still something I take small issue with. You know what in this whole scenario I take big issue with? He spends years blaming Roshone for the death of his brother. He hates him. He learns to hate Amoran even more. I can even understand why someone would. Though eventually I think he even hates Sadeus even more than Roshone. This makes no sense to me. It gets so bad, that when he finally gets there, he punches Rashon, and leaves it at that. I don't mind the old hero trope of 'learn to forgive, do not take vengeance', but here, that message was executed incredibly sloppily, and unbelievably to me. He was willing to even argue with Syl that punishing Amoran via the legal means would even avoid some of those vengeance of the heart tropes, even if that kind of did blow up spectacularly. And he still wanted a degree of justice after even that. So then, we are led to believe, that simply because he gets back home, and realizes that Roshone is 'a small town bully', he can be forgiven, simply because he isn't a world ending threat? There is blood on his hands, even if it was out of petty and spite, and there is no serious consequences of 'if we try and remove Roshone from position and do justice in the right legal way, the village and people of the area would fall apart', because they wouldn't. And that is me taking out the the possibility of direct vengeance because of Syl and honor factor. It is dishonorable to not do otherwise, much less practically forget it. And when Laral comes in and lays down the law and tells off on his treatment of Roshone, I about laughed my... Well, off but for all of the wrong reasons in the reading. She doesn't seem to get it either, but somehow she was 'the honorable' woman in that affair, having finally brought repentance to Roshone? If you want to let Roshone get off lightly, then you can do it in a much more believable way, this here, this doesn't make character sense, nor honor sense, nor spren sense. And it makes me look at like 3 different characters in scenes with a complete air of incredulity. Next part, why did Dalinar just talk Kaladin and his Spren via Kaladin's feelings into thinking letting Elokhar off for his negligent murder of two darkeyes go simply because it was politically expedient for the kingdom at that time to let it go, as 'we have bigger problems', yes, they do, but that isn't the 'honorable' thing to do. Even if you think death shouldn't be on the table, since Elokhar didn't directly do it (which is how I view it, since he was manipulated), he still was the cause, due to negligence, so like manslaughter. Him not pursuing is bad enough, but perhaps forgivable, but why in the long years since, did he never even bring up his PERSONAL involvement, involving the indirect killing of his brother based on actions of Elokhar, to what Dalinar did? This specific issue should be used to shame Dalinar for some sort of recompense, which he NEVER pays for, it is simply forgotten about, similar to the rift (aka, Dalinar's, ah, they killed a darkeyes in envy? Ah, let us put him in charge of more darkeyes and forget about him is a wonderful solution, Dalinar mistake). But Kaladin never does anything to get justice, or honor, in any three of these deaths. And simply ends up ignoring and forgiving, thinking it is all 'small time now'. That might be so, but that 'small time bully' still largely killed his brother, and, well, totally forgiven. Obviously not, but for the stories sake, it might as well be the case. I at least would love to one day see Dalinar's response to knowing what he did here, and it's results. Which he seems to have no concept of by book 4, so we might at least get some self awarded justice, however small, even if Kaladin was too honorless to quest it himself. In summary I just think Kaladin is the sum total of a lot of different generic way of the hero tropes, thrown in, and done worse than where they usually work best. With a lot of those similarities to Rand, executed way worse, makes nonsensical moral decisions along the way, with his friends, family, is often irritating with some of those unresolved obstacles for so long, and is less forgivable to me for that. I feel I could probably have written more on this topic, but I felt this was already growing too long, and doesn't need a list of 10 less direct points towards my general issues with Kaladin.

Does Raysium take the stormlight away via the method, or similar enough, as the Larken does? I know the Larken could suck in and absorb both Stormlight and Voidlight, and they seem to be able to be multifunctional in what types of investiture they can feed upon. I am going to say, it is very well possible. But then the question becomes, does it need to be form of investiture of light itself from whatever deity it is from. Perhaps, but I think breath has a similar aura as a stormlight/voidlight surger anyway. And isn't it stated somewhere that the physical element of investiture of a god medal was simply because it was the solid form of it. And there were liquid forms, and then gas forms? I think light in this case, is probably another form of the same thing. Something I have viewed it as anyway. Different shards tend to give each world a different focus of the same thing there.

This is what I was looking for. A more practical weakness to the insta-death potential than other limitations I tried to think of that don't slow it down much at all for a close in fight. This makes it a very interesting fighting style towards the higher end. It would devolve into opponents trying to kill close in with very close to no head movement whatsoever, wearing something like shardplate. Not letting their movement increase to such a degree the can't directly see their forward momentum when they do move or a speed they can't stop close to instantly on. This would give a serious attacker's advantage still to the person experienced with the shapeshifting weapons, and I would imagine it would end up having an art of the one/two/three combo strikes, in which you try to use one form of weapon to push into your opponent one direction, making momentum, and then even as that momentum becomes unavoidable, instantly have spikes through the slits on the other side. Yeah, still terrifying, but at least there is some hope, slim hope. At least it would delay the battlefield momentum a little bit of such a terrible shardbearer. The styles and battles of this sort of thing could be interesting to see on the page though. I still expect between any two shardbearers with plates and blade would still be over very fast though.

So they are limited, so it is doubtful that it could ever just think, and boom an army down. While that's helpful to know, I still can't help but see that no matter what arbitrary limitations will be placed on them, be it length, breadth, shape, range, or simply the conceptual skill of the wielder, that shardblades simply for the ability to instantly transform size and shape at all, are practically the ultimate form of close combat weapon around. Dropping any single adversary around you to a degree of proficiency no amount of skill or speed can dodge, not even a teleporter of the style of the Pursuer. Maybe not for killing a shard, like NB, but for everyone killable with a sword, in any fight, yes, 100x more scary when properly realized. Picking the limitations he set up, you could set yourself up a field of dummies and get craftsmen to practice conceptual builds of thin twisted blades around grooves and corners to fit every situation on that field, all the while you practicing, eventually getting so good that you can run through them and at whatever range these effective shapeshifts can be brought by, instantly stab and drop all the dummies at a dead run. No shardplate could properly protect anyone when you get good enough with it.