Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[The Technovore]

We've been trapped in this neverending cycle of desolations for a lonnnggg time

[Enter a username]

Well, I need to eat dinner now. One more question, though: Is this all of Scadrial, or just Elendel Basin and surrounding areas?

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Enter a username said:

Well, I need to eat dinner now. One more question, though: Is this all of Scadrial, or just Elendel Basin and surrounding areas?

We've been counting the south as well yes.

[therunner]

7 hours ago, The Technovore said:

This is not going to be a particularly well-articulated point, but I want to mention that while we understand Gravitation and Soulcasting pretty well, we don't know the full abilities of most of the surges. Case in point, Edgedancers use Abrasion and Progression, Progression being stupid powerful (Nale uses a Progression Fabrial to literally bring Szeth back from the dead) but not necessarily useful against a mistborn (I mean, besides the wonderful look on their face as they watch an Edgedancer slide in and undo all the work they did killing the Radiant). 

However, Edgedancers have a reputation for having mistborn-like agility and grace. They're described by historians, legends, and eyewitnesses as having incredible agility and dexterity in combat, even though their actual abilities don't seem to be particularly combat oriented. I think that there's a third ability each surgebinder has that's a combination of their two surges (like how Windrunners have a Reverse Lashing, which seems to be both Gravitation and Adhesion), that might contribute to this strange reputation Edgedancers have.

Personally I'd love to see an Edgedancer v Mistborn duel, it'd be the duel we deserve, but I think the Mistborn would be forced to flee, as everything they did to the Edgedancer would be healed, but the Edgedancer has the agility more than most to hit the Mistborn. 

Also note that we've seen little of Division but we know it dissolves molecular bonds and works on humans. I feel like a Mistborn facing a Skybreaker or Dustbringer filled with Stormlight would essentially just run. Because as soon as you touch that Radiant they touch you back and you lose. Curse you Newton's Third Law.

I do want to be fair though. The biggest and easiest way for a Radiant to lose a battle is to either lose before they draw stormlight in (surprise attack) or to run out of stormlight mid-fight (battle of attrition). Because stormlight's quick-burning is the Radiant's biggest weakness. I think if we're being honest a Mistborn can't do too much to an Oath 4 Radiant that's glowing from head to toe, but if you force them to run out of resources, you win, and to be honest a Mistborn is more than capable of the harassment and battery tactics required for that. 

In a Mistborn v Radiant duel, the question probably needs to be "How can the Radiant pin down and kill that Mistborn before they run out of light?" Some orders have easy answers to that question, other may have a more difficult time.

I agree that the combined abilities in vein of reverse lashings could prove to be very important for the battle.

Wow, I did not think division could be used on humans, that makes a big change...altough Mistborn will be invested so they would resist on that front so I think dividing their clothing would be surer bet.

I also agree in Mistborn vs Radiant (4th) it comes down on Radiants ability to either outmanouver, outpace or pin Mistborn down, with time being an issues only if it takes more than 30 minuts-1 hour (per Kaladins 12 hour non-stop top speed flight with just the light he could carry at 3rd oath).

I am in process of trying to do a match up of all individual orders vs Mistborn, but it is not fully ready yet. Preliminary I think (Win = kill oponent, toss-up = either cannot kill, or requires luck)

1. Radiant Win
   1. Windrunners/Skybreakers/Elsecallers/Lightweavers win (soulcasting air to oil, flame both of which are of ten essences and so easy to do, gravitation will allow Wind/Sky to outmaneuver and outpace mistborn to go for kill strike)
   2. Willshapers might depending on if they can also use Transportation to effectively teleport around the Physical (come out of cognitive on top of mistborn and stab with sprenblade). So 4-5 orders would win most of the time, unless they made a big mistake somewhere.
2. Toss up
   1. If Bondsmiths can generate light on demand anywhere it would be a draw, unless Mistborn made a mistake and tried to approach them on foot. (neither can realistically kill the other), in principle bondsmith would have slight advantage as here the mistborn could be the first to tire out, but they would probably bail before that.
   2. Dustbringers if they can use abrasion at least half as well as Edgedancers and have some nets to try and immobilize the mistborn. They could also try to use abrasion/division on mistborns anchors to try and bring them down and toss divided boulders/stones in mistborns paths to wound them, ultimately it would depend on the particulars of the battle and if they can knock Mistborn out of air before running out of stormlight.
3. Mistborn wins only through attrition
   1. Stonewards -> can use cohesion and tension to build themselves a small building/cover using tension to strengthen it to unnatural degree, so Mistborn would have to approach them for close quarters combat in terrain of Stonewards choosing. Since in CQC Radiant with plate has all the advantages outside of agility (they are stronger, faster, can heal, have greater reach, reflexes are on par) they would win most of the time. 
   2. Edgedancers, while they can easily avoid Mistborn through abrasion, they have little in the way of trying to get them out of the air, or force them into close quarters combat. Mistborn would have to be overconfident to try and fight opponent which in CQC holds all the advantages, so their best chance is to take shots at them with coins and wait them out.
4. Mistborn wins without resorting to attrition
   1. Truthwatchers, while thanks to progression they are harder to kill than most Radiants, the best they can do to get Mistborn out of the sky is try and confuse them with Illusion, and here I think bronze would show its value. They might also be able to dispel illusion with chromium if they could touch them. Ultimately, unless mistborn makes a grave error they should be able to close in for a kill strike if they are skilled enough. But if progression is strong enough to regenerate what would be a kill strike (duralumin-pewter hammer to face) than Mistborn is screwed, so still a risky proposition, altough hammer coated with aluminum should help with that.   
   2.   Bondsmith without being able to generate light on demand - they have no blade, seemingly also no plate, and so lack Radiants CQC offensive and defensive capabilities. Misborn should be able to kill them even from distance I think, if they target their head well enough.

Edited March 25, 2021 by therunner
Formatting

[Frustration]

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Truthwatchers, while thanks to progression they are harder to kill than most Radiants, the best they can do to get Mistborn out of the sky is try and confuse them with Illusion, and here I think bronze would show its value. They might also be able to dispel illusion with chromium if they could touch them. Ultimately, unless mistborn makes a grave error they should be able to close in for a kill strike if they are skilled enough. But if progression is strong enough to regenerate what would be a kill strike (duralumin-pewter hammer to face) than Mistborn is screwed, so still a risky proposition, altough hammer coated with aluminum should help with that.   

Illumination can be used as a weapon.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

[Discussion of Lightweavers manipulating other forms of electromagnetic radiation]

But the ultimate form (That Brandon said would be too much to be practical both in needed stormlight and application) would be the control of Gamma Radiation. If this could be harnessed, Lightweavers could literally become mini nukes, or death guns. The biggest downside to making Gamma radiation would be the damage the lightweaver would most likely suffer. So gamma radiation is impractical but its a fun thought experiment. 

The best part of this whole speculation was how excited Brandon was about my train of thought. I don't know if anyone had brought up this train of thought before. But he was happy to remind me that things will get pretty interesting when Lightweavers discover lasers and start using them in combat.

Miscellaneous 2016 (July 3, 2016)

 

5 hours ago, therunner said:

  Bondsmith without being able to generate light on demand - they have no blade, seemingly also no plate, and so lack Radiants CQC offensive and defensive capabilities. Misborn should be able to kill them even from distance I think, if they target their head well enough.

Bondsmiths being able to generate light on demand seems pretty well established, both Dalinar and Navani do it.

 

[therunner]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Illumination can be used as a weapon.

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

[Discussion of Lightweavers manipulating other forms of electromagnetic radiation]

But the ultimate form (That Brandon said would be too much to be practical both in needed stormlight and application) would be the control of Gamma Radiation. If this could be harnessed, Lightweavers could literally become mini nukes, or death guns. The biggest downside to making Gamma radiation would be the damage the lightweaver would most likely suffer. So gamma radiation is impractical but its a fun thought experiment. 

The best part of this whole speculation was how excited Brandon was about my train of thought. I don't know if anyone had brought up this train of thought before. But he was happy to remind me that things will get pretty interesting when Lightweavers discover lasers and start using them in combat.

Miscellaneous 2016 (July 3, 2016)

 

Bondsmiths being able to generate light on demand seems pretty well established, both Dalinar and Navani do it.

 

True, but I'd wager that they are at least a few decades from discovering lasers, so with their level of knowledge I would still put Truthwatchers low. Although if the helmet of the plate could attenuate the light coming from illusions they could conceivably blind the mistborn while remaining seeing themselves, based on that I might feel comfortable bumping them up one degree, because blind Mistborn would have great difficulty killing Radiant (even if they could use bronze and steel/iron to navigate some extent). However, if the mistborn knew steelsight, than blinding illusions would not be much help. When they discover lasers Truthwatchers would be on a force to reckon with and could most likely kill mistborn without any difficulty.

Well we have seen Navani do it only in contact with Sibling so far, and Dalinar+Stormfather have odd things around them (Unite them, unexplained visions, Tanavast's cognitive aspect) so I do not feel entirely secure as taking him as example. I do feel it is likely enough that I included it, but not so strongly as to discount the opposite conclusion.

[Frustration]

New way to aniahlate Scadrial, Have Stormform singers move the Everstorm back to the CR, have Odium move it to the CR of Scadrial and have the Stormforms bring it into the PR there.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Frustration

[The Technovore]

So I was thinking about weapons a mistborn would use around Radiants. You'd want something Invested for sure, but also something non-Invested that you can push/pull. I think they'd have a TerrisShield Buckler (made from either Iron or Steel that's been filled with Feruchemical power) they can take from their back, or alternatively some sparce TerrisPlates on their arms and legsand two iron maces. These maces would be protected by a covering so that they couldn't be directly lashed before the Mistborn uses them. This way the mistborn has a heavy metal weapon they can send flying around to batter the Radiant, and can use it with pewter to damage the plate. The plate/shield would function as a way to block the blade, the blade would cut it eventually but it would prevent the Mistborn from dying too fast, and heavy bludgeoning metal weapons could actually do something against that pesky sprenplate. Plus you can combine the maces with either durapewter or durasteel to force the Radiant from fighting to healing, which, if they don't have Gravitation, I can see turning the tide of a duel.

A Mistborn burning pewter, tin, and electrum can probably survive CQC for a little bit, add in some copper and they might be resistant to having themselves lashed. I can see a tactic developing where you get close, bash the plate open with dura-pewter, then use dura-chromium to completely wipe their stormlight and stop them from summoning the plate. Then you just find something to stab them with and wait for them to die like a normal human. Again, for any Oath 4 Radiant the Mistborn is definitely the underdog, (gotta have a little bit of plot armor) but I can see electrum+durachromium handily dealing with most Oath 3's as soon as they to use their sprenblade. 

[therunner]

11 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

So I was thinking about weapons a mistborn would use around Radiants. You'd want something Invested for sure, but also something non-Invested that you can push/pull. I think they'd have a TerrisShield Buckler (made from either Iron or Steel that's been filled with Feruchemical power) they can take from their back, or alternatively some sparce TerrisPlates on their arms and legsand two iron maces. These maces would be protected by a covering so that they couldn't be directly lashed before the Mistborn uses them. This way the mistborn has a heavy metal weapon they can send flying around to batter the Radiant, and can use it with pewter to damage the plate. The plate/shield would function as a way to block the blade, the blade would cut it eventually but it would prevent the Mistborn from dying too fast, and heavy bludgeoning metal weapons could actually do something against that pesky sprenplate. Plus you can combine the maces with either durapewter or durasteel to force the Radiant from fighting to healing, which, if they don't have Gravitation, I can see turning the tide of a duel.

A Mistborn burning pewter, tin, and electrum can probably survive CQC for a little bit, add in some copper and they might be resistant to having themselves lashed. I can see a tactic developing where you get close, bash the plate open with dura-pewter, then use dura-chromium to completely wipe their stormlight and stop them from summoning the plate. Then you just find something to stab them with and wait for them to die like a normal human. Again, for any Oath 4 Radiant the Mistborn is definitely the underdog, (gotta have a little bit of plot armor) but I can see electrum+durachromium handily dealing with most Oath 3's as soon as they to use their sprenblade. 

The more you armor the mistborn and have them carry heavy weaponry, the more you constrain their mobility and agility. Not as much as you would a normal person, but taking away the one clear physical edge they have to shore up some of their weakness (and not even enough to equal the plate) might not be the best trade off. Some armor and weaponry is better than none, but question would be how heavy can it get without constraining Mistborn too much.

Pewter will not even bring them up to same standard as Plated radiants, outside of agility where they will surpass them. Tin, I am not sure how useful it would be, if Radiant is glowing it might be a bit blinding to them. Electrum will be the MVM (most valuable metal) for CQC, question is if it balances out speed and reach advantage of Radiant. I would see bendalloy as being more useful in getting into killing range of CQC, and combined with Electrum it could be potent combination. And problem with CQC with Radiant in plate is that if Radiant in plate can hit Mistborn first, they die, if the Mistborn does not completely disable them first, Mistborn also dies, Mistborn will only live if they completly disable Radiant before Radiant can strike.

Edited March 25, 2021 by therunner
two sentences to second paragraph

[Enter a username]

First: what does CQC mean?

Second: has anyone brought up Scadrial's air supremacy? Roshar is just starting to develop flying machines like the Fourth Bridge, but the Southern Scadrians have been building and improving airships for who knows how long.

[Frustration]

Just now, Enter a username said:

First: what does CQC mean?

Close quarter combat (don't worry I had to look that up)

Just now, Enter a username said:

Second: has anyone brought up Scadrial's air supremacy? Roshar is just starting to develop flying machines like the Fourth Bridge, but the Southern Scadrians have been building and improving airships for who knows how long.

One Windrunner or Skybreaker could drop an entire fleet of Southern airships, I think Air Supremacy stays with the people who had it first.

[Enter a username]

Just now, Frustration said:

One Windrunner or Skybreaker could drop an entire fleet of Southern airships, I think Air Supremacy stays with the people who had it first.

Scadrians have things like rifles, cannons (I'm assuming), and ettmetal bombs; those airships are well defended. This ties into a Radiant's inherent limitation: they can take hits nobody else would survive, but only as long as they have Stormlight, which Windrunners and Skybreakers also need to fly. If they went after a fleet of airships, they would take out at most one, possibly two if they get really lucky.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Enter a username said:

Scadrians have things like rifles, cannons (I'm assuming), and ettmetal bombs; those airships are well defended. This ties into a Radiant's inherent limitation: they can take hits nobody else would survive, but only as long as they have Stormlight, which Windrunners and Skybreakers also need to fly. If they went after a fleet of airships, they would take out at most one, possibly two if they get really lucky.

Just fly up underneath one and cut it in half, or when you learn about it just cut out the engine, or lash it down, or just stand on top of it, their weight would drop it from the sky.

[Zapata]

6 minutes ago, Enter a username said:

First: what does CQC mean?

Second: has anyone brought up Scadrial's air supremacy? Roshar is just starting to develop flying machines like the Fourth Bridge, but the Southern Scadrians have been building and improving airships for who knows how long.

To be fair, RoW is decades before BoM. For all we know, by the time of BoM, Roshar could be equal to the Southern Scadrians in airship tech. Look at real-world flight. the Wright brothers first flew in 1903, but the airplane was used by Italy in 1911, and by many nations during WWI. Only 8 years between the first flight and combat piloting in the real world, so why not something similar on Roshar? 

[Enter a username]

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Just fly up underneath one and cut it in half, or when you learn about it just cut out the engine, or lash it down, or just stand on top of it, their weight would drop it from the sky.

Flying underneath one would let a whole bunch of others fire on them. If they tried going inside or standing on the deck, a Steelrunner would take them out easily. And I'm sure it would take a lot of Stormlight to Lash something that big downwards.

6 minutes ago, Bearer of Agonies said:

To be fair, RoW is decades before BoM. For all we know, by the time of BoM, Roshar could be equal to the Southern Scadrians in airship tech. Look at real-world flight. the Wright brothers first flew in 1903, but the airplane was used by Italy in 1911, and by many nations during WWI. Only 8 years between the first flight and combat piloting in the real world, so why not something similar on Roshar? 

Real-life planes had structures and engines that could be improved and optimized. Rosharan flying machines run on fabrials, which only have one improvement that I can see: use raysium to make the flying machine side of the fabrials move farther with less distance on the mechanical side, and those would most likely take longer to build than to destroy.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Enter a username

[Frustration]

Just now, Enter a username said:

Flying underneath one would let a whole bunch of others fire on them. If they tried going inside or standing on the deck, a Steelrunner would take them out easily. And I'm sure it would take a lot of Stormlight to Lash something that big downwards.

Airships are rather limited in their weapons, and besides, there will be very easy blindspots to exploit they were not built for air to air combat, and I don't think a Steelrunner wants to go running around on a limited sized platform that is hundreds of feet in the air, just doesn't seem like a good idea for someone with no way to fly themselves.

1 minute ago, Enter a username said:

Real-life planes had engines that could be improved and optimized. Rosharan flying machines run on fabrials, which only have one improvement that I can see: use raysium to make the flying machine side of the fabrials move farther with less distance on the mechanical side, and those would most likely take longer to build than to destroy.

Everything is easier to destroy than create.

Now here is an intresting question, could you use Different sized gems to create perpetual motion by having a physical object link them? move the big gem a foot, and the small one will drag it forward three, causing the small gem to move forward more, etc.

Thus giving the Rosharans powered flight.

[Zapata]

11 minutes ago, Enter a username said:

Flying underneath one would let a whole bunch of others fire on them. If they tried going inside or standing on the deck, a Steelrunner would take them out easily. And I'm sure it would take a lot of Stormlight to Lash something that big downwards.

Real-life planes had structures and engines that could be improved and optimized. Rosharan flying machines run on fabrials, which only have one improvement that I can see: use raysium to make the flying machine side of the fabrials move farther with less distance on the mechanical side, and those would most likely take longer to build than to destroy.

there are potentially other improvements though. If Navani or another artifabrian can learn to create Surge fabrials like Soulcasters and Progression fabrials. If they can figure those out, Abrasion and Gravitation fabrials could be used on airships. Gravitation to lighten the load (or be an entirely new design of airship) and Abrasion to lower air resistance.

Edit: 

Wait! Gravitation and Abrasion could be used on the conjoined gem to make that easier to move as well!

Edited March 25, 2021 by Bearer of Agonies

[Enter a username]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Airships are rather limited in their weapons, and besides, there will be very easy blindspots to exploit they were not built for air to air combat, and I don't think a Steelrunner wants to go running around on a limited sized platform that is hundreds of feet in the air, just doesn't seem like a good idea for someone with no way to fly themselves.

If there's enough of them, with enough distance between them, their crew could and most likely would see anything coming, especially if the watchman was a Tineye or Windwhisperer. And they wouldn't be limited by space at all if they were on the actual airship, not what was essentially a lifeboat.

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Everything is easier to destroy than create.

Now here is an intresting question, could you use Different sized gems to create perpetual motion by having a physical object link them? move the big gem a foot, and the small one will drag it forward three, causing the small gem to move forward more, etc.

Thus giving the Rosharans powered flight.

I have my doubts whether that would work. The smaller gem would want to move three feet, but it would most likely be held back by the physical bond. And where would there be enough space for this to be optimal?

8 minutes ago, Bearer of Agonies said:

there are potentially other improvements though. If Navani or another artifabrian can learn to create Surge fabrials like Soulcasters and Progression fabrials. If they can figure those out, Abrasion and Gravitation fabrials could be used on airships. Gravitation to lighten the load (or be an entirely new design of airship) and Abrasion to lower air resistance.

There's still the fundamental problem of the power. None of this matters if it can only move so far before having to stop in its tracks for the ground team to rewind the fabrials* used to power it, leaving it completely open to any number of different attacks.

*They'd most likely be using the same type of setup as the personal lift fabrial Kaladin used.

[Zapata]

Just now, Enter a username said:

There's still the fundamental problem of the power. None of this matters if it can only move so far before having to stop in its tracks for the ground team to rewind the fabrials* used to power it, leaving it completely open to any number of different attacks.

*They'd most likely be using the same type of setup as the personal lift fabrial Kaladin used.

Kaladin's glove fabrial had several weights paired to it that he could switch between when one ran out. The airship could be the same way, with the ability to switch to another weight while the ground team resets the first one.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Enter a username said:

If there's enough of them, with enough distance between them, their crew could and most likely would see anything coming, especially if the watchman was a Tineye or Windwhisperer. And they wouldn't be limited by space at all if they were on the actual airship, not what was essentially a lifeboat.

With the amount of room a Knight takes up, I don't think you want to go out there, then again, with the entire ship being about to fall to the ground It might be the better option.

3 minutes ago, Enter a username said:

I have my doubts whether that would work. The smaller gem would want to move three feet, but it would most likely be held back by the physical bond. And where would there be enough space for this to be optimal?

The gems would have to be the right sizes, but I think it could work, the idea is to link it somehow, to the airship, maybe by attaching a cage to the perpetual motion platform that had a linked gem inside the airship.

[The Technovore]

8 minutes ago, Enter a username said:

There's still the fundamental problem of the power. None of this matters if it can only move so far before having to stop in its tracks for the ground team to rewind the fabrials* used to power it, leaving it completely open to any number of different attacks.

 

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The gems would have to be the right sizes, but I think it could work, the idea is to link it somehow, to the airship, maybe by attaching a cage to the perpetual motion platform that had a linked gem inside the airship.

I'm not sure this line of discussion is going to be particularly helpful to the hypothetical at large. If this was 2015, before Bands of Mourning came out, would we be fighting about how it doesn't make sense to use allomancy to try to fly, because there's a series of fundamental problems that can't be solved with the information from Shadows of Self? Yet it happened, and it's generally accepted that it works, because the author tells us that it does. It's not fair to give Scadrial airships that have frankly a lot of handwavey "look, it works because it works, okay?", but because Brandon has yet to give Rosharan airships the same treatment, we can somehow prove that it's not going to work and its not possible. Getting into the nitty gritty of the mechanics and saying that because we can't make it work it's not possible is like the Vorin church deciding Radiants were charlatans because their priests couldn't slide on stone like it was ice. 

Bridge Four is a significant plot point that's gotten a lot of attention. Navani and her "Project Manhattan" in Urithiru is a major plot point. Rosharan technological advancement is a plot point. All that adds together to mean that what we see in airships today will be much better and more advanced in 10 years by BoM.

[Enter a username]

8 minutes ago, Bearer of Agonies said:

Kaladin's glove fabrial had several weights paired to it that he could switch between when one ran out. The airship could be the same way, with the ability to switch to another weight while the ground team resets the first one.

Still, that would take time, and likely more time than using up one or more.

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

With the amount of room a Knight takes up, I don't think you want to go out there, then again, with the entire ship being about to fall to the ground It might be the better option.

Again, it's not like a Radiant of any order would put up much of a fight to a rusting Steelrunner.

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The gems would have to be the right sizes, but I think it could work, the idea is to link it somehow, to the airship, maybe by attaching a cage to the perpetual motion platform that had a linked gem inside the airship.

Even if it worked, and I still have my doubts, the only way I see this working well is if you lose those gems forever. Either you let it zoom off, or you stop it every few feet, because that thing isn't turning. 

[Frustration]

Just now, Enter a username said:

Again, it's not like a Radiant of any order would put up much of a fight to a rusting Steelrunner.

given that f-steel/a-pewter is faster than double steel in short distance I have to disagree.

1 minute ago, Enter a username said:

Even if it worked, and I still have my doubts, the only way I see this working well is if you lose those gems forever. Either you let it zoom off, or you stop it every few feet, because that thing isn't turning. 

"A small price to pay for perpetual motion"

[Enter a username]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

given that f-steel/a-pewter is faster than double steel in short distance I have to disagree.

Firstly, how do you know that? Secondly, what does that have to do with Steelrunner vs Radiant?

[Zapata]

1 minute ago, Enter a username said:

Still, that would take time, and likely more time than using up one or more.

not necessarily, i think. The Fourth Bridge is pulled along horizontally, so it might actually be faster to reset it than to use up the next gem. and besides, that airship has only one conjoined load that reverses itself instead of ever resetting.