Gisaku75 Posted March 26, 2021 Posted March 26, 2021 39 minutes ago, therunner said: I meant my post as a reply to @Frustration, where he was comparing arguably greatest feat of d-pewter for which we have good numbers for force (crushing human head) to feat of shardplate. Where did Dalinar fall 50 feet? I vagualy recollect it, but I was unable to track it down in book. In the book there are no numbers (it is on pages 705-706 of WoA, start of 55th chapter), either for angle of her jump or the distance between vanguard of koloss charge (her starting point) and Straff (her end point). We do not see the moment she pushed off (only through Straff's eyes), only her landing. Her flight took about ~6-8 seconds (my estimate based on Straffs thoughts), which would put her maximum height at ~45-80 meters (assuming her landing position is at same height). Is the Straffs camp at some heightened position or not? And yeah, the text says she bisected the horse with Koloss sword, into front half and back half. From the description the only way it makes sense to me is that she must have held the sword with its tip pointed down and she dragged it through both Straff and the horse (she hits Straff first and on the head, the only other way I can imagine that is if she fell straight down, but then would not make sense to describe what she did as "jump"). No a body in free fall travels 313 meters in 8 seconds 176 in six. When Vim jump Staff mistaking her for an arrow, and he's a tineye. In order not to distinguish a person, Vin had to be at least 500 meters away or more.
Frustration Posted March 26, 2021 Posted March 26, 2021 1 hour ago, Gisaku75 said: No the text says that the horse fell in two pieces not that it is smashed to the ground. 45 minutes ago, therunner said: And yeah, the text says she bisected the horse with Koloss sword, into front half and back half. From the description the only way it makes sense to me is that she must have held the sword with its tip pointed down and she dragged it through both Straff and the horse (she hits Straff first and on the head, the only other way I can imagine that is if she fell straight down, but then would not make sense to describe what she did as "jump"). Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Chapter Fifty-Five Vin Kills Straff I told you that I couldn't just let Straff die to a random poisoning. He's been an antagonist for far too long–surviving through two whole books. He deserved a sword in the head. Oddly, there was a great deal of conversation in my writing groups about how to describe Straff dying. The thing is, Vin pretty much chopped him in half–but I don't imagine the koloss sword being that sharp, so I think it would smash and crush as much as cut, particularly considering how hard Vin hit. Some disagreed, and thought the cut should be clean. Eventually, after trying several things, I just went with this. It's abstract enough that you can imagine what you want. I didn't want to be TOO graphic, nor did I want to cause arguments about something that silly. The Well of Ascension Annotations (Jan. 23, 2009)
therunner he/him Posted March 26, 2021 Posted March 26, 2021 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Gisaku75 said: No a body in free fall travels 313 meters in 8 seconds 176 in six. When Vim jump Staff mistaking her for an arrow, and he's a tineye. In order not to distinguish a person, Vin had to be at least 500 meters away or more. Yeah but her entire flight start to finish took between 6 to 8 seconds in my estimate. If Straff is at same elevation as her starting point, then from symmetry she fall half the time of the total flight, which is between 3-4 seconds, and from that we get 45-80 meters (0.5*10*3^2 = 45, or 0.5*10*4^2 = 80). He very quickly corrects himself on her not being an arrow (the very next sentence he says the the object is too large) and he very specifically is not burning metals in that situation (he describes how his drug makes him feel as if he was burning metal). @Frustration Interesting, from the book I took it as the horse being cut in half, but Brandons comment suggests he thinks it should be more tearing and smashing. The only sentences in the book are "The horse fell into two pieces, front and back. What remained of the former king slid to the ground with equine corpse." So not really much to go on. Previously Vin is also described as hitting Straff directly in the head and then continuing down. Edited March 26, 2021 by therunner reply to frustration
Gisaku75 Posted March 26, 2021 Posted March 26, 2021 1 hour ago, therunner said: Yeah but her entire flight start to finish took between 6 to 8 seconds in my estimate. If Straff is at same elevation as her starting point, then from symmetry she fall half the time of the total flight, which is between 3-4 seconds, and from that we get 45-80 meters (0.5*10*3^2 = 45, or 0.5*10*4^2 = 80). He very quickly corrects himself on her not being an arrow (the very next sentence he says the the object is too large) and he very specifically is not burning metals in that situation (he describes how his drug makes him feel as if he was burning metal). Sorry but your evaluation of time is based on how long it takes you to read the paragraph? It seems very convenient to me. One would have to be very shortsighted to mistake a person for an arrow or a boulder two hundred meters away. Even with the falling ash. Mine was a generous evaluation. Staff camp is located at a safe distance from the city and must use scouts to guard it not lookouts, 500 meters or 1 km is the minimum distance, in case of a danger, to raise the alarm and deploy the troops in defense. Staff just finished deploying troops and the Kolosses have just started charging. They are still out of reach of the archers so certainly more than 300 meters. Vin and Kelsier by burning steel can reach a height of 100 feet or 30 meters, the walls of Luthadel. So with duralumin 300 meters high are perfectly reachable.
BenduLuke he/him Posted March 26, 2021 Posted March 26, 2021 14 hours ago, The Technovore said: SMH I can't believe I just read all this. I'm not going to address the hypothetical because it's based in Benduluke's version of the Cosmere, not Brandon's. Point 1: We're not assuming Roshar in RoW, we're looking at Rosharan magic vs Scadrian magic, but if anything we're looking at some point 10 years in Roshar's future compared to some 2-3 years in Scadrial's future. If we're going to be using limitations from the books, then Scadrial doesn't get to have medallions or airships or ettmetal bombs because North and South Scad have no relationship, nor do they get a standing army of metalborn, because 'according to the books' there's no evidence that North Scad has an organized military beyond their police force. Point 2: ...dude, are you seriously polarizing this conversation into "Rosharites" vs "Scadrites"? This is not that cut and dry, and to be completely frank it's insulting to accuse over half the contributors of this thread of disingenous bias, just because we don't agree that F-Aluminum can store other people's identity (Feruchemy doesn't work that way), that f-Iron can make black holes (Compounding can't reach those numbers), or that steelcompounding can break mach 20 (too many other environmental factors prevent that and Brandon has said so). If you're going to try and label us into camps and polarize this convo, if that's the direction this conversation is moving, this thread is going to get locked within four pages, I guarantee it. This is not supposed to be dividing the community, this is supposed to be a healthy debate between two major book series within the same narrative universe. Please don't ruin it for everyone. Point 3: No, Shardblades are not essentially sharpened mist, you would know that if you actually read the SA books. Shardblades are the bodies of spren manifesting in the physical realm as godmetal. It is pure investiture in the form of matter. With Investiture drained they aren't anything at all because they wouldn't exist anymore. This is a basic fact in SA, it's a literal plot point. Point 4: Anyone who fits the ideals of the relevant spren and who can convince a spren to bond them. If a Scadrian's plan is to kill a Radiant and immediately bond their spren, they're going to be sorely disappointed because spren have sapience, and we established pages ago that "United Roshar, United Scadrial." If Roshar isn't united and you can just steal a spren bond, then it won't take much for to convince the Set or some scholar to divulge all the secrets of the metallic arts. Point 5: Vin broke her leg in TFE by being thrown against a wall. Pewter didn't let her stand again. Pewter didn't stop her leg from breaking. She was helpless until the mists came and boosted her. Point 6: I'm perfectly happy to discuss how a Mistborn can kill a Radiant. Three pages ago I gave an actually plausible way for a Mistborn to do it. I think that a Mistborn can trump any inexperienced Oath 3 just by virtue of Bendalloy+Electrum+Chromium and finished with a nice swing to the head via hammer or mace. Similarly any Feruchemist with a decent store of Pewter+Steel+Iron+Gold can blitz an Oath 3 or even an Oath 4 and do serious damage. You don't need to make up your own version of the Cosmere to make it work. Again, let's not make this into a "Rosharite" vs "Scadrite" thing. All we need to make this go well is some intellectual honesty and some knowledge of the material in question. Unrelated Bonus Point: We know there was no attempt to balance the magic systems by Brandon, but by definition the Shards and Vessels are largely equal. Could we say that if Harmony saw Scadrial was in trouble (if Roshar found a way to get Radiants off-world, perhaps), he could rally a sizable army of metalborn? If we say he doesn't make a ton of Fullborn (because we ALL know it'd be an overwhelming Scad victory if he did), how many numbers in Mistborn and Feruchemists could we imagine him mustering? How could Roshar compete if suddenly their knights were outnumbered 2 or 3-to-1 against metalborn? First let me congratulate you on at least recognizing the metal being used through out. There is nothing in any comments that I have found that contradicts what Aluminum compounding might do. Brandon when asked directly said thats a big RAFO, which implies to me that there is much more going on with it than we currently know. I am interpreting from the one thing that we know aluminum can be invested with and its stated potential for immunity in its savants to start with. To be honest most of the responces to my last post seem to lack the awareness and imagination you have shown with this one. Let me address Scadrites and Rosharites. It seems to me that many of the people who proposed Scadrian potential have been shouted down by people who seem to have a hard core belief that Rosharans and Rosharan magic are invincible and it has begun to frustrate me so I used those terms as a wake up call to try and get some of you to take a step back. It didn's seem to work. If we look into the future when the 2 meet in the cosmere the landscape will likely be much different. We can only go by where each is now and the descriptions of how the the powers work. Right now until at least after the next SA Book Rosharans and their magic is stuck on Roshar. There have been epic feats of power in books about both worlds and even though it may seem obvious who might come out on top in an engagement I don't think it is so cut and dried. Now I admit it takes a little imagination to see how Scadrian magic will come out on top in a head to head battle with some of the more emphasized Radiant Orders, but with the combinations of powers and in some individuals the near infinite power levels it is well within Scadrian magic to trump Rosharan magic in many cases. I just think that some of you are so set on Rosharan invincibility that you don't even consider or imagine that Scadrian magic is just as formidable. I was surprised a few pages back to find that one of you said a mistborn with a shard hammer might be able to bash a radiants head in when for weeks I have been presenting several versions of the same argument to the debate. I haven't yet talked about ette metal bombs or medallions or even fabrials. I have spent my energy mostly more common better understood Scadrian abilities Except for Aluminum (my indulgence). I don't see myself as polarizing the conversation but pushing back on the overwhelming bias toward Roshar. When is the last time one of you said thats an interesting idea, even if you don't think it works that way. Brandon leaves a lot of gaps for interpretation and imaginiation for all of you to constantly try and shut me down. Oh once again thanks for being less disingenuous to me than some others. How do you know Aluminum compounding doesn't work that way? Brandon RAFOed it. Shardblades turn to mist so converting to mist when their investiture is impeded is not unthinkable. Right and if someone has some of the Identity that the Radiant the spren was bonded to in the past it would ease the way to a full connection. Dead Shardblades do bond to new owners forming a connection which we have seen can be used to start reviving them. I did say Quicksilver shot shardbearers not Radiants until the last conflict then bonded their dead blades. The shard plate he tracked down was bonded to the Radiant that had the Shardblade before and so was revived once in range of the new bonded pair. And yes part of the process of reviving the blades was swearing the types of oaths of the origional Radiants with Identity can come the memory of those oaths within the Spren. So the Spren were revived through the Oaths sworn by someone who shares at least some of the Identity of the former Radiant. Yes I read the books but apperantly I saw things you and the others may not have noticed just as you might have picked up on things I didn't. While going through them again I have been trying to be aware where you get your ideas about the cosmere particularly where they contradict mine. From my perspective there are many twin combinations that can challenge even the most advanced Radiants to date. Just because you and some others don't share my ideas of how things might work doesn't mean they don't work that way so stop just dismissing them because you disagree with them. That has been very disingenuous of all of you and has made this a less than safe place for me on many occasions. I am sorry that you are offended by what I often feel is the attitude of this topic. I have been just about the only person who has continued to be active in this discussion from the first because all the others who have tried to support Scadrian magic have been shouted down by several of you, I just refuse to let you intimidate me off the thread. There are several usual commentators on this thread I could have chosen to respond to and apologize to but I chose you because you have shown some degree of respect and courtesy to me so I felt you deserved a response from me.
Frustration Posted March 26, 2021 Posted March 26, 2021 (edited) 23 hours ago, Gisaku75 said: Sorry but your evaluation of time is based on how long it takes you to read the paragraph? It seems very convenient to me. One would have to be very shortsighted to mistake a person for an arrow or a boulder two hundred meters away. Even with the falling ash. Mine was a generous evaluation. Staff camp is located at a safe distance from the city and must use scouts to guard it not lookouts, 500 meters or 1 km is the minimum distance, in case of a danger, to raise the alarm and deploy the troops in defense. Staff just finished deploying troops and the Kolosses have just started charging. They are still out of reach of the archers so certainly more than 300 meters. Vin and Kelsier by burning steel can reach a height of 100 feet or 30 meters, the walls of Luthadel. So with duralumin 300 meters high are perfectly reachable. Straff is also on drugs at this point. 23 hours ago, BenduLuke said: First let me congratulate you on at least recognizing the metal being used through out. There is nothing in any comments that I have found that contradicts what Aluminum compounding might do. Brandon when asked directly said thats a big RAFO, which implies to me that there is much more going on with it than we currently know. I am interpreting from the one thing that we know aluminum can be invested with and its stated potential for immunity in its savants to start with. To be honest most of the responces to my last post seem to lack the awareness and imagination you have shown with this one. Saying we don't know what compounding does, doesn't mean you can assume what it does and treat it as fact. Lack of awareness? I have argued based on factual evidece on all my points, what am I unaware of? 23 hours ago, BenduLuke said: Let me address Scadrites and Rosharites. It seems to me that many of the people who proposed Scadrian potential have been shouted down by people who seem to have a hard core belief that Rosharans and Rosharan magic are invincible and it has begun to frustrate me so I used those terms as a wake up call to try and get some of you to take a step back. It didn's seem to work. No, we are shouting down unsupported and occasionally outright wrong information, you will note that when @Enter a username gave quotes on the size of the ship I came to the conclusion that it was too big for a Radiant to significantly affect. Radiants aren't invicible, but I don't think your methods of dealing with them are enough. 23 hours ago, BenduLuke said: I have spent my energy mostly more common better understood Scadrian abilities Except for Aluminum (my indulgence). I don't see myself as polarizing the conversation but pushing back on the overwhelming bias toward Roshar. When is the last time one of you said thats an interesting idea, even if you don't think it works that way. Brandon leaves a lot of gaps for interpretation and imaginiation for all of you to constantly try and shut me down. Why would I make a sugestion if I didn't think it worked that way? Or if all known evidence was contrary to it, that's like saying I can use a single atom of Anti-matter to delete a Black hole from existence. I make suggestions based on what we know. 23 hours ago, BenduLuke said: How do you know Aluminum compounding doesn't work that way? Brandon RAFOed it. How do you know Aluminum compounding does work that way? Brandon RAFOed it. 23 hours ago, BenduLuke said: Right and if someone has some of the Identity that the Radiant the spren was bonded to in the past it would ease the way to a full connection. Dead Shardblades do bond to new owners forming a connection which we have seen can be used to start reviving them. I did say Quicksilver shot shardbearers not Radiants until the last conflict then bonded their dead blades. The shard plate he tracked down was bonded to the Radiant that had the Shardblade before and so was revived once in range of the new bonded pair. And yes part of the process of reviving the blades was swearing the types of oaths of the origional Radiants with Identity can come the memory of those oaths within the Spren. So the Spren were revived through the Oaths sworn by someone who shares at least some of the Identity of the former Radiant. Yes I read the books but apperantly I saw things you and the others may not have noticed just as you might have picked up on things I didn't. While going through them again I have been trying to be aware where you get your ideas about the cosmere particularly where they contradict mine. Ok, 1. We have never seen anything that suggests you can store someone elses attirbutes 2. I would give your ideas consideration if you coud supply evidence to support them, If you can't support your theories they won't be considered, it's just like real life science, evidence is everything. 23 hours ago, BenduLuke said: From my perspective there are many twin combinations that can challenge even the most advanced Radiants to date. Just because you and some others don't share my ideas of how things might work doesn't mean they don't work that way so stop just dismissing them because you disagree with them. That has been very disingenuous of all of you and has made this a less than safe place for me on many occasions. I am sorry that you are offended by what I often feel is the attitude of this topic. I have been just about the only person who has continued to be active in this discussion from the first because all the others who have tried to support Scadrian magic have been shouted down by several of you, I just refuse to let you intimidate me off the thread. I am not trying to intimidate you off this thread, just correct your misconceptions, you can still support Scadrial, I think that several of the people that do have good points, but I'm not going to throw out everything we know about the cosmere to have the battle take place the way you think it should. Edited March 27, 2021 by Frustration
BenduLuke he/him Posted March 26, 2021 Posted March 26, 2021 5 minutes ago, Frustration said: Straff is also on drugs at this point. Saying we don't know what compounding does, doesn't mean you can assume what it does and treat it as fact. Lack of awareness? I have argued based on factual evidece on all my points, what am I unaware of? No, we are shouting down unsupported and occasionally outright wrong information, you will note that when @Enter a username gave quotes on the size of the ship I came to the conclusion that it was too big for a Radiant to significantly affect. Radiants aren't invicible, but I don't think your methods of dealing with them aren't enough. Why would I make a sugestion if I didn't think it worked that way? Or if all known evidence was contrary to it, that's like saying I can use a single atom of Anti-matter to delete a Black hole from existence. I make suggestions based on what we know. How do you know Aluminum compounding does work that way? Brandon RAFOed it. Ok, 1. We have never seen anything that suggests you can store someone elses attirbutes 2. I would give your ideas consideration if you coud supply evidence to support them, If you can't support your theories they won't be considered, it's just like real life science, evidence is everything. I am not trying to intimidate you off this thread, just correct your misconceptions, you can still support Scadrial, I think that several of the people that do have good points, but I'm not going to throw out everything we know about the cosmere to have the battle take place the way you think it should. Exactly your comments are based on your opinion of the facts. There is allot of open potential to exploit whether or not our opinions become Cosmere reality. No you have rejected allot of evidence you didn't agree with. How do I Know aluminum works that way because I see no documented reason it wont and the way Brandon responded indicated to me there is more going on there than meets the eye. I wont be upset or disappointed if in the future he reveals it does something else. You have shown on many occasions that you underestimate both compounding and twinning. Look if you can't imagine a suggestion at least acknowledge the effort and creativity of the idea even if you disagree with it. This is after all an imaginary universe similar to our own whose rules haven't all been explained so that even ideas you disagree with have merit. Yes we have. Hemalurgy is all about storing others attributes, so is Leeching. Oh and the Nahel bond is about merging Spren attributes with the selected Radiant. Forgery is also about acquiring others attributes. Dude you have been so dismissive of ideas from others you disagree with not just me that many have left the thread because of it. I just happen to refuse to be dismissed even when you frustrate me with your dismissive attitude. Your posts are about contradicting others ideas on the subject not going out on a limb and presenting your own situations to criticism.
The Technovore he/him Posted March 26, 2021 Posted March 26, 2021 54 minutes ago, BenduLuke said: Yes we have. Hemalurgy is all about storing others attributes, so is Leeching. Oh and the Nahel bond is about merging Spren attributes with the selected Radiant. Forgery is also about acquiring others attributes. Dude you have been so dismissive of ideas from others you disagree with not just me that many have left the thread because of it. I just happen to refuse to be dismissed even when you frustrate me with your dismissive attitude. Your posts are about contradicting others ideas on the subject not going out on a limb and presenting your own situations to criticism. Heh, it's all in the name I'm not going to add any more the more personal aspect of this debate, there's a lot I could and want to say, but I think it will be counterproductive. I will mention that the problem with aluminum and your idea Bendu is that Feruchemy specifically is NOT about storing other attributes, only your own. Mistings can't burn metalminds they didn't make. That's the super cool thing about unkeyed metalminds is that it allows for you to access power others stored. But that doesn't mean you store someone else's speed in your steel, or someone else's identity in your aluminum. I'm not up to Era 2 on my re-read of Mistborn yet, so let me do some looking on the coppermind and hope that it won't lead me astray. Btw, the coppermind can be unreliable about a lot of things, because it's just written by the fanbase, not Brandon, and because of that a lot of things get misinterpreted. Anyhoo... ...Okay, so from my understanding, storing away all your Identity lets you use Identity-restricted magic so long as you have the Investiture. "Blank" Feruchemists can use anyone's metalminds, and "blank" Mistborn can burn anyone's metalmind, which makes me think an F-Aluminum medallion would be a great thing for a Mistborn with Ferring friends to have. (Good grief I think I just created a Fullborn.) That's the extent of F-Aluminum. Identity shenanigans are not the same as connection shenanigans, and while perhaps in future books Brandon might reveal that you can hack Feruchemy to store/steal other's attributes, we have no hints of it today, therefore we can't base hypotheticals off of it. I must've missed that "Quicksilver" was fighting a shardbearer, not a Radiant. That makes it more plausible for sure. That killing shot is still near-impossible, but there are plenty of ways to skin a cat that doesn't breath stormlight. I still think that you're underestimating the Skybreaker. Division can make a lot of smokescreen, flight keeps him away from bullets and swords, and all it takes is a solid stormlight-enhanced with a SprenHammer to break Quicksilver's armor. Then, since Division works on flesh... well. Plus you're asking Scadrial to coat a man in armor that's worth more than its weight in gold to make an insanely dangerous journey just kill a Shardbearer and a Radiant. Quicksilver will not and can not get a Nahel bond for multiple reasons, Edgedancers and Truthwatchers can literally revive the dead so long as their spirits don't go to the Beyond, and where one Radiant will fail, three more will do the trick. They're just that strong. Okay, I want to bring up one other thing. Ettmetal, right? We've been talking a lot about bombs, but I think that's thinking too grandiose. How about Ettmetal bullets and grenades? Those previously useless Pulsers, come equipped with a couple ettmetal "grenades", can lob one at the feet of a surgebinder or shardbearer and abruptly stop their killing spree. Even if it only lasts for a couple seconds, it gives the rank-and-file Scadrian Infantry time to focus their aim. As soon as the Cadmium drops they're overwhelmed by a hailstorm of bullets. It might not kill certain Oath 4s but it'll put any one person in serious danger. Similar bamboozlement can happen with Leecher grenades, Tineye grenades, even Auger grenades. Also--ettmetal bullets. They explode in contact with water. You wouldn't want the entire bullet made from it but if the shell is infused with it suddenly you have explosive ammo that will take a chunk out of anyone it sinks its teeth into. That's any Oath 3 Radiant suddenly in grave danger just from infantrymen, and Oath 4 Radiants checking their sprenplate integrity much more nervously. I think that puts the chances of a Scadrian army much fairer against a Rosharan one. 1
BenduLuke he/him Posted March 26, 2021 Posted March 26, 2021 40 minutes ago, The Technovore said: Heh, it's all in the name I'm not going to add any more the more personal aspect of this debate, there's a lot I could and want to say, but I think it will be counterproductive. I will mention that the problem with aluminum and your idea Bendu is that Feruchemy specifically is NOT about storing other attributes, only your own. Mistings can't burn metalminds they didn't make. That's the super cool thing about unkeyed metalminds is that it allows for you to access power others stored. But that doesn't mean you store someone else's speed in your steel, or someone else's identity in your aluminum. I'm not up to Era 2 on my re-read of Mistborn yet, so let me do some looking on the coppermind and hope that it won't lead me astray. Btw, the coppermind can be unreliable about a lot of things, because it's just written by the fanbase, not Brandon, and because of that a lot of things get misinterpreted. Anyhoo... ...Okay, so from my understanding, storing away all your Identity lets you use Identity-restricted magic so long as you have the Investiture. "Blank" Feruchemists can use anyone's metalminds, and "blank" Mistborn can burn anyone's metalmind, which makes me think an F-Aluminum medallion would be a great thing for a Mistborn with Ferring friends to have. (Good grief I think I just created a Fullborn.) That's the extent of F-Aluminum. Identity shenanigans are not the same as connection shenanigans, and while perhaps in future books Brandon might reveal that you can hack Feruchemy to store/steal other's attributes, we have no hints of it today, therefore we can't base hypotheticals off of it. I must've missed that "Quicksilver" was fighting a shardbearer, not a Radiant. That makes it more plausible for sure. That killing shot is still near-impossible, but there are plenty of ways to skin a cat that doesn't breath stormlight. I still think that you're underestimating the Skybreaker. Division can make a lot of smokescreen, flight keeps him away from bullets and swords, and all it takes is a solid stormlight-enhanced with a SprenHammer to break Quicksilver's armor. Then, since Division works on flesh... well. Plus you're asking Scadrial to coat a man in armor that's worth more than its weight in gold to make an insanely dangerous journey just kill a Shardbearer and a Radiant. Quicksilver will not and can not get a Nahel bond for multiple reasons, Edgedancers and Truthwatchers can literally revive the dead so long as their spirits don't go to the Beyond, and where one Radiant will fail, three more will do the trick. They're just that strong. Okay, I want to bring up one other thing. Ettmetal, right? We've been talking a lot about bombs, but I think that's thinking too grandiose. How about Ettmetal bullets and grenades? Those previously useless Pulsers, come equipped with a couple ettmetal "grenades", can lob one at the feet of a surgebinder or shardbearer and abruptly stop their killing spree. Even if it only lasts for a couple seconds, it gives the rank-and-file Scadrian Infantry time to focus their aim. As soon as the Cadmium drops they're overwhelmed by a hailstorm of bullets. It might not kill certain Oath 4s but it'll put any one person in serious danger. Similar bamboozlement can happen with Leecher grenades, Tineye grenades, even Auger grenades. Also--ettmetal bullets. They explode in contact with water. You wouldn't want the entire bullet made from it but if the shell is infused with it suddenly you have explosive ammo that will take a chunk out of anyone it sinks its teeth into. That's any Oath 3 Radiant suddenly in grave danger just from infantrymen, and Oath 4 Radiants checking their sprenplate integrity much more nervously. I think that puts the chances of a Scadrian army much fairer against a Rosharan one. Actually one of the things Aluminum Ferings can do is use metalminds they didn't create by storing their identity into another first. They can get past the identity lock. As you seem to have noticed if the other aluminum fering had a different allomantic power they might be able to acquire that form of allomancy from the identity mixed with their own identity. Rinse and repeat for the other 14 powers. Yes there is the potential for an Aluminum twin under the right circumstances to become a Fullborn. I am going off the idea that an aluminum compounder savant is a walking hemalugic spike. When they sink investiture or erase metals they use their ferring connection to transfer that identity to their metal mind with the idea that what both the spike and allomantic power do is wipe the relevant identity of the investiture or metal, but instead of sending it to the void a aluminum compounder might be able to direct it to the metalmind. Taking on an identity is a step toward connection and potentially enables connection. There are normal pistol marksmen that could make that shot like Wax. It is all in training and talent. Quicksilver wasn't wearing armor. He intentionally allowed the shard stab just to hack the Skybreaker by the blade. He knew that he could survive the strike for several reasons and could mess with both the blade and Skybreaker through identity manipulation. I also didn't say the Skybreaker was 4th ideal so no need to worrry about his armor just make the killing shot then hack the connection with the blade without conflict with the Skybreakers identity. By that point with the other identities he had merged he knew quite a bit about Radiant and Spren (he got that from the first hack). Direct division is nullified by aluminum burning so is the shard damage. He had aluminum bracers, and jewelry. What would be very interesting is an aluminum compounder working with a forger from Sel but that is beyond this thread. Mostly he wins because his level of inteligence was far greater than the Skybreaker who assumed he was confronting someone regular but in the wrong place illegally. I was only just starting to think about Ettemetal projectiles.Oh and humidity could trigger Ettemetal grenades or projectiles so coat it until it reaches its target. Or what about a Seeker/Soulbearer. Can sense the vairous frequencies of investiture. if someone tries to lash him he stores the investiture in his metal mind to tap as necessary Feruchemically. He would need to wait for someone to use a surge on him to bridge the connection gap, but after that any investiture he is connected to is storable and tappable. In addition with seeker senses they would be able to determine what light to store to incapacitate or even kill Radiants and Fused for use in their weapons. Perhaps carry different types of anti-light in different metal minds to be prepared to combat either then transfer it to ettemetal projectiles for use. Scadrian science works everywhere and metals are both transportable and find able everywhere. Scadrian magic lends itself into scientific discovery which then leads to more uses for Scadrian magic that works everywhere without restriction. If a metalborn can get there they can do what they have always been able to do on Scadrial. That is a major point in favor of Scadrian magic vs Rosharan magic.
therunner he/him Posted March 26, 2021 Posted March 26, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Gisaku75 said: Sorry but your evaluation of time is based on how long it takes you to read the paragraph? It seems very convenient to me. One would have to be very shortsighted to mistake a person for an arrow or a boulder two hundred meters away. Even with the falling ash. Mine was a generous evaluation. Staff camp is located at a safe distance from the city and must use scouts to guard it not lookouts, 500 meters or 1 km is the minimum distance, in case of a danger, to raise the alarm and deploy the troops in defense. Staff just finished deploying troops and the Kolosses have just started charging. They are still out of reach of the archers so certainly more than 300 meters. Vin and Kelsier by burning steel can reach a height of 100 feet or 30 meters, the walls of Luthadel. So with duralumin 300 meters high are perfectly reachable. I am basing my time estimate on how the events that take place, Straff notices her and does not even have enough time to try and move out of the way, that to me puts a time limit of 10 seconds at most (that would lead to 120 m fall for Vin, assuming Straffs camp is on equal ground to her starting point). Second, Vin has no way to navigate in the air, nowhere does it suggests that she used pushed/pulls to make herself more precise (she describes her move as duralumin Steeljump) and yet she landed a perfect killing strike. So one jump with no secondary aid, I do not think it could possibly be more than those 500 m long. Third, Straff and his aids can clearly see the Koloss on the other side of the field, close to Luthadel, and they do this without need for tin. Next the Koloss are not out of range of archers, the second they start charging Janarle commands archers to prepare volley, so they should be close to archer range. Since british longbows had maximum range around 300 meters, with effective range around 200 meters, the Koloss are probably not too far from that distance. Now, I am not sure if Koloss are much faster than normal men, but assuming they are twice as fast they could cover 200 meters in about 12-15 seconds, more than enough time to prepare volley even if they were 400 meters away. If they were 1 km away the archers would have more than a minute to prepare. Also Vin and Kelsier reach 30 meters when trying to go vertically, Vin was targeting someone in horizontal direction so she would fire herself under 45 degree angle at most, possibly lesser one if she is confident enough in the strength of her push. Either way, even surviving that minimal 45 meter drop is quite a feat since she seemingly did not use any pushes to slow herself down, the only thing that broke her fall was her killing Straff and his horse. 2 hours ago, BenduLuke said: No you have rejected allot of evidence you didn't agree with. How do I Know aluminum works that way because I see no documented reason it wont and the way Brandon responded indicated to me there is more going on there than meets the eye. I wont be upset or disappointed if in the future he reveals it does something else. You have shown on many occasions that you underestimate both compounding and twinning. Look if you can't imagine a suggestion at least acknowledge the effort and creativity of the idea even if you disagree with it. This is after all an imaginary universe similar to our own whose rules haven't all been explained so that even ideas you disagree with have merit. Yes we have. Hemalurgy is all about storing others attributes, so is Leeching. Oh and the Nahel bond is about merging Spren attributes with the selected Radiant. Forgery is also about acquiring others attributes. Dude you have been so dismissive of ideas from others you disagree with not just me that many have left the thread because of it. I just happen to refuse to be dismissed even when you frustrate me with your dismissive attitude. Your posts are about contradicting others ideas on the subject not going out on a limb and presenting your own situations to criticism. Speaking for myself, I mostly reject what seems to as baseless speculation that extrapolates wildly outside the known bounds. Like for example assuming that f-aluminum allows storage of other peoples Identity, when all Feruchemical abilities only target themselves. Brandon also RAFOs things when he is undecided, or does not want to lock himself to it just yet, it does not necessarily mean it is a big relevant secret. I do not mind acknowledging creativity, but when you take quite big liberties with mostly known limitations and real world physics, that I do not see as worthy of acknoweldgment. If we are not working from the same (or close enough) working facts, we can hardly ever agree. Yes Hemalurgy, the magical system famous for its ability to steal abilities of others. Not Feruchemy, system known for the fact that it is only fueled by the person themselves, and does not include others in its workings at all. Leeching is allomancy, Nahel bonds are entirely different system. Ultimately, Feruchemy is limited to storing/tapping attributes of the feruchemist, so doing things like storing Identity of some one else is outright impossible (not to mention, it is a bit difficult to store Identity of someone who is dead for millenia). F-Aluminum allows for storage of ones identity, the entire Feruchemy is only about storing/tapping your own attributes. Even compounding is just adding fuel on top of it, not storing attributes of others. F-Aluminum allows creation of blank metalminds usable by anyone with correct ability. Fast tapping can heal/restore cognitive aspect (by reinforcing the you in you, I would presume). It would most likely not allow Burning away pain from painrial. The painrial enhances the physical feeling in the physical body, it does not seem to target the cognitive aspect. If it does work by manipulating cognitive aspect directly, then yes I could see Trueself removing the pain (like they could remove/resist Rioting or Soothing). Manipulating connection (so no piggybacking on the connection of deadblade, if it even has one substantial enough to someone dead for millenia) Storing Identity of others (no identity of dead knight to store), this is general limitation of Feruchemy, its most basic principle. Not even compounding will get you around that. Storing pain into painrial, because a) That is not how painrials work, and b ) Emotions =/= identity, so no storing of that (and painrial is not made of aluminum anyway). Reestablishing bond with deadspren. Here f-aluminum does nothing at all (and reswearing oaths is not enough to bring the spren back anyway, there are WoBs on this). Manipulating connection again (to find the other part of the plate). You could argue that the plate is part of the Radiant, so it should tie into their Identity, but your Agent is not the original Radiant. They swore new ideals and would have to earn their plate. Again storing others Identity is not a thing (the part with the Skybreaker). Altough he might heal the shardwound with Aluminum, that is true. No stolen identity (not how Feruchemy works), no bond (and spren can break the bond if they so wish). The whole Nahel bond to Harmony. That is at best connection manipulation, definately not related to identity. Again, I do not mind creativity and speculation, but there are so many problems with your scenario that break established working principles we might as well say that any magic system can do anything, and any spiritual ability can do everything. That is in no way useful. Also @Frustration did post a few scenarios, you did not engage with them. If anything I am the one mostly contradicting others, but even then I do try to add something to the discussion. Quote Quicksilver wasn't wearing armor. He intentionally allowed the shard stab just to hack the Skybreaker by the blade. He knew that he could survive the strike for several reasons and could mess with both the blade and Skybreaker through identity manipulation. I also didn't say the Skybreaker was 4th ideal so no need to worrry about his armor just make the killing shot then hack the connection with the blade without conflict with the Skybreakers identity. By that point with the other identities he had merged he knew quite a bit about Radiant and Spren (he got that from the first hack). Direct division is nullified by aluminum burning so is the shard damage. He had aluminum bracers, and jewelry. What would be very interesting is an aluminum compounder working with a forger from Sel but that is beyond this thread. Mostly he wins because his level of inteligence was far greater than the Skybreaker who assumed he was confronting someone regular but in the wrong place illegally. I was only just starting to think about Ettemetal projectiles.Oh and humidity could trigger Ettemetal grenades or projectiles so coat it until it reaches its target. Or what about a Seeker/Soulbearer. Can sense the vairous frequencies of investiture. if someone tries to lash him he stores the investiture in his metal mind to tap as necessary Feruchemically. He would need to wait for someone to use a surge on him to bridge the connection gap, but after that any investiture he is connected to is storable and tappable. In addition with seeker senses they would be able to determine what light to store to incapacitate or even kill Radiants and Fused for use in their weapons. Perhaps carry different types of anti-light in different metal minds to be prepared to combat either then transfer it to ettemetal projectiles for use. Storing your identity does nothing in the sense of manipulating others, those are connection, that would be F-duralumin (and again storing =/= manipulating). Absorbing others identities is not within scope of F-Aluminum (could be achieved by burning of spikes though). Also, if they somehow did incorporate others identities, they would shift their goals and opinions, because they would literally alter their Identity. If they absorbed bunch of Rosharans their identity would most likely shift so much they would just join Roshar again. Direct division will be most likely nullified, but they would need to be burning immediately, or Skybreaker could just divide their clothing and watch them burn. And it is nice that you assume that not only is your Agent a perfect marksman, but you assume that he knows his opponent and Radiant does not, I think this is very telling. Seeker/Soulbeare -> just lash a bunch of stones in their direction, no need to lash them directly. They do not have speed or agility to dodge more than a few. Carrying different anti-lights in the nicrosil minds is interesting idea, if it is possible to store light, of course the issue is that he cannot create the light outside of laboratory, so no in-field recharging. Edited March 26, 2021 by therunner added a reaction to another post 2
Frustration Posted March 27, 2021 Posted March 27, 2021 5 hours ago, BenduLuke said: Exactly your comments are based on your opinion of the facts. There is allot of open potential to exploit whether or not our opinions become Cosmere reality. My opinions of the facts? I don't think so, but if you have examples I'm willing to hear them. 5 hours ago, BenduLuke said: No you have rejected allot of evidence you didn't agree with. Could you provide an example? 5 hours ago, BenduLuke said: How do I Know aluminum works that way because I see no documented reason it wont and the way Brandon responded indicated to me there is more going on there than meets the eye. I wont be upset or disappointed if in the future he reveals it does something else. On the contrary it seems he thinks it's useless Spoiler FireArcadia Is there any use to being a copper Compounder, from a Feruchemical point of view? I think the same point would also apply to an aluminum Compounder. Brandon Sanderson Some combinations, like some abilities themselves, aren't really that useful. That said, being able to Compound copper...that could do some things. Aluminum, not so much. 17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 25, 2012) 6 hours ago, BenduLuke said: You have shown on many occasions that you underestimate both compounding and twinning. I underestimate Twinning, or what you think it could accomplish? On compounding, the only one you can argue with is steel and Brandon has said it won't break the sound barrier, and that peter/steel might be faster than steel/steel, so I don't think that is an underestimation. 6 hours ago, BenduLuke said: Look if you can't imagine a suggestion at least acknowledge the effort and creativity of the idea even if you disagree with it. This is after all an imaginary universe similar to our own whose rules haven't all been explained so that even ideas you disagree with have merit. I gave you a suggestion but you "didn't see the point." 6 hours ago, BenduLuke said: Yes we have. Hemalurgy is all about storing others attributes, so is Leeching. Oh and the Nahel bond is about merging Spren attributes with the selected Radiant. Forgery is also about acquiring others attributes. Hemalurgy is stealing, not storing, Leeching does not store, it destroys. Forgery is about changing the history of an object, and Nahel bonds don't store anything. But none of that matters because none of them are Feruchemy. 6 hours ago, BenduLuke said: Dude you have been so dismissive of ideas from others you disagree with not just me that many have left the thread because of it. I just happen to refuse to be dismissed even when you frustrate me with your dismissive attitude. Your posts are about contradicting others ideas on the subject not going out on a limb and presenting your own situations to criticism. I have been dismissive? I have kept this discussion within the realm of plausibility. If someone has left the discussion because of me I would like to apologize to them for it, but people leave threads for hundreds of reasons. And again I have given you situations, two quite recently in fact but you "didn't see the point" and never gave more than a one line response to them. 5 hours ago, The Technovore said: Okay, I want to bring up one other thing. Ettmetal, right? We've been talking a lot about bombs, but I think that's thinking too grandiose. How about Ettmetal bullets and grenades? Those previously useless Pulsers, come equipped with a couple ettmetal "grenades", can lob one at the feet of a surgebinder or shardbearer and abruptly stop their killing spree. Even if it only lasts for a couple seconds, it gives the rank-and-file Scadrian Infantry time to focus their aim. As soon as the Cadmium drops they're overwhelmed by a hailstorm of bullets. It might not kill certain Oath 4s but it'll put any one person in serious danger. Similar bamboozlement can happen with Leecher grenades, Tineye grenades, even Auger grenades. Also--ettmetal bullets. They explode in contact with water. You wouldn't want the entire bullet made from it but if the shell is infused with it suddenly you have explosive ammo that will take a chunk out of anyone it sinks its teeth into. That's any Oath 3 Radiant suddenly in grave danger just from infantrymen, and Oath 4 Radiants checking their sprenplate integrity much more nervously. I think that puts the chances of a Scadrian army much fairer against a Rosharan one. That could probably work, given that Harmonium was based on Cesium, but more powerful, I could see that working. only two potential downsides I can see, you don't want to accidentally hit yourself or your allies, and we don't know how rare it is. Given that, it would probably be best in an airstrike to prevent friendly fire, but it could be incredibly effective. 2
therunner he/him Posted March 27, 2021 Posted March 27, 2021 12 hours ago, The Technovore said: Okay, I want to bring up one other thing. Ettmetal, right? We've been talking a lot about bombs, but I think that's thinking too grandiose. How about Ettmetal bullets and grenades? Those previously useless Pulsers, come equipped with a couple ettmetal "grenades", can lob one at the feet of a surgebinder or shardbearer and abruptly stop their killing spree. Even if it only lasts for a couple seconds, it gives the rank-and-file Scadrian Infantry time to focus their aim. As soon as the Cadmium drops they're overwhelmed by a hailstorm of bullets. It might not kill certain Oath 4s but it'll put any one person in serious danger. Similar bamboozlement can happen with Leecher grenades, Tineye grenades, even Auger grenades. Also--ettmetal bullets. They explode in contact with water. You wouldn't want the entire bullet made from it but if the shell is infused with it suddenly you have explosive ammo that will take a chunk out of anyone it sinks its teeth into. That's any Oath 3 Radiant suddenly in grave danger just from infantrymen, and Oath 4 Radiants checking their sprenplate integrity much more nervously. I think that puts the chances of a Scadrian army much fairer against a Rosharan one. I would see the grenades as more useful application than bullets, as I would assume that Ettmetal while not as rare as Lerasium is not particularly abundant metal, so using it on one use bullets seems like a bit of waste. The grenades could be recovered, recharged and reused and so would be more economical use of the Ettmetal. 1
ScadrianTank he/him Posted March 27, 2021 Posted March 27, 2021 (edited) 20 hours ago, The Technovore said: Okay, I want to bring up one other thing. Ettmetal, right? We've been talking a lot about bombs, but I think that's thinking too grandiose. How about Ettmetal bullets and grenades? I'm on the same page with @therunner grenades are a lot more useful in this case. Rarity aside, Ettmetal's effectiveness as a bullet is questionable. For one, specialized rounds, particularly explosive ones, of small calibers are not that effective. The projectile is not large enough to put a substantial amount of explosive material. I'm not sure how reactive Ettmetal is, so I might be wrong, but if you hit someone with a bullet made of material that reactive, wouldn't it react before penetrating deep enough to deal substantial damage? Then there is the whole thing with mass-producing explosive rounds that could detonate in storage due to dampness or rain. When I was trying to come up with a design for a tank or an IFV from Scadrial, I considered shells that would use Ettmetal. But in every case, it seemed a lot more useful to use it in a fabrial. Allomantic steel to push shrapnel further, iron to improve hit probability against other vehicles, cadmium or bendalloy for moving targets, Feruchemical brass to increase a chance of a fire, those kinds of things. And I remember thinking, " I'm going to throw away god knows how much rare magical metal on a single-use, non-guided projectile when I can probably use the same amount to reload and fire several regular shells with bendalloy. That seems like a waste." Edited March 27, 2021 by ScadrianTank 2
BenduLuke he/him Posted March 27, 2021 Posted March 27, 2021 (edited) 21 hours ago, therunner said: Speaking for myself, I mostly reject what seems to as baseless speculation that extrapolates wildly outside the known bounds. Like for example assuming that f-aluminum allows storage of other peoples Identity, when all Feruchemical abilities only target themselves. Brandon also RAFOs things when he is undecided, or does not want to lock himself to it just yet, it does not necessarily mean it is a big relevant secret. I do not mind acknowledging creativity, but when you take quite big liberties with mostly known limitations and real world physics, that I do not see as worthy of acknoweldgment. If we are not working from the same (or close enough) working facts, we can hardly ever agree. Yes Hemalurgy, the magical system famous for its ability to steal abilities of others. Not Feruchemy, system known for the fact that it is only fueled by the person themselves, and does not include others in its workings at all. Leeching is allomancy, Nahel bonds are entirely different system. Ultimately, Feruchemy is limited to storing/tapping attributes of the feruchemist, so doing things like storing Identity of some one else is outright impossible (not to mention, it is a bit difficult to store Identity of someone who is dead for millenia). F-Aluminum allows for storage of ones identity, the entire Feruchemy is only about storing/tapping your own attributes. Even compounding is just adding fuel on top of it, not storing attributes of others. F-Aluminum allows creation of blank metalminds usable by anyone with correct ability. Fast tapping can heal/restore cognitive aspect (by reinforcing the you in you, I would presume). It would most likely not allow Burning away pain from painrial. The painrial enhances the physical feeling in the physical body, it does not seem to target the cognitive aspect. If it does work by manipulating cognitive aspect directly, then yes I could see Trueself removing the pain (like they could remove/resist Rioting or Soothing). Manipulating connection (so no piggybacking on the connection of deadblade, if it even has one substantial enough to someone dead for millenia) Storing Identity of others (no identity of dead knight to store), this is general limitation of Feruchemy, its most basic principle. Not even compounding will get you around that. Storing pain into painrial, because a) That is not how painrials work, and b ) Emotions =/= identity, so no storing of that (and painrial is not made of aluminum anyway). Reestablishing bond with deadspren. Here f-aluminum does nothing at all (and reswearing oaths is not enough to bring the spren back anyway, there are WoBs on this). Manipulating connection again (to find the other part of the plate). You could argue that the plate is part of the Radiant, so it should tie into their Identity, but your Agent is not the original Radiant. They swore new ideals and would have to earn their plate. Again storing others Identity is not a thing (the part with the Skybreaker). Altough he might heal the shardwound with Aluminum, that is true. No stolen identity (not how Feruchemy works), no bond (and spren can break the bond if they so wish). The whole Nahel bond to Harmony. That is at best connection manipulation, definately not related to identity. Again, I do not mind creativity and speculation, but there are so many problems with your scenario that break established working principles we might as well say that any magic system can do anything, and any spiritual ability can do everything. That is in no way useful. Also @Frustration did post a few scenarios, you did not engage with them. If anything I am the one mostly contradicting others, but even then I do try to add something to the discussion. Storing your identity does nothing in the sense of manipulating others, those are connection, that would be F-duralumin (and again storing =/= manipulating). Absorbing others identities is not within scope of F-Aluminum (could be achieved by burning of spikes though). Also, if they somehow did incorporate others identities, they would shift their goals and opinions, because they would literally alter their Identity. If they absorbed bunch of Rosharans their identity would most likely shift so much they would just join Roshar again. Direct division will be most likely nullified, but they would need to be burning immediately, or Skybreaker could just divide their clothing and watch them burn. And it is nice that you assume that not only is your Agent a perfect marksman, but you assume that he knows his opponent and Radiant does not, I think this is very telling. Seeker/Soulbeare -> just lash a bunch of stones in their direction, no need to lash them directly. They do not have speed or agility to dodge more than a few. Carrying different anti-lights in the nicrosil minds is interesting idea, if it is possible to store light, of course the issue is that he cannot create the light outside of laboratory, so no in-field recharging. I can accept that people will see my logical or intuitive leaps as baseless because people have been saying that to me for years. The other common response is the "what?" effect to things I have said. In most cases those same people have come back to me later with how did you know or I finally get it. My thought process is admittedly unorthodox and I do make logical or intuitive leaps from a to f or c to s. The other side of that is that I never think what I say is baseless even when others can't follow it. I also never take what others say as baseless even if I don't agree with either their facts or conclusions of those facts. F-Aluminum is a wild card. It allows the storage of Identity and also allows the ferring to bipass the identity lock on metalminds not just create blanks usable by anyone. Do you understand the implications of this. An aluminum ferring who blanks themself can tap another aluminum ferrings metalmind attaining that persons Identity with potentially all their abilities, investiture, skills, and knowledge. Forming a bond forms a connection which can also potentially give an aluminum ferring access to the identity of the other thing or person. So bonding a shardblade may give access to any residual identity within it including that portion of the Radiants identity left over after the recrience from the former bond. Aluminum allomancy allows for the burning away of investiture based injuries more so for Savants so shardblade damage can be burned off as can painrial effects. From what I have read painrials need to store pain before they evoke pain, but Fabrials are something I know the least about. When I first looked at what aluminum does in metal arts it seemed strange to me that in all but one aspect it is investiture inert and even anti investiture. Why is that I asked? It stores Identity is this a clue to what it does or why it does it? Accepting that assumption I thought maybe its relationship with storing and tapping Identity is how it wipes metals and other investiture. Spren would avoid it because to close an interaction would wipe their own identities. Without another outlet burning aluminum stores the metals or investiture identity back into the spirit realm, but if you have a aluminum compounder they can literally store the identity of anything that aluminum burning makes vanish into the SR. Identity also seems to be key in restoring connection. For example once a person accepts as part of their identity that they have a scar or deformed limb it cannot be healed, but if at any time they eliminate that as part of their identity they can be. This idea became plausible in a matter of minutes to me, but as a courtesy I decided to explain my thought process to you. If you can find some other plausible way that aluminum works I am all ears. It just does that is not an explanation. Oh by the way it makes sense that most gem used for fabrials would be investiture resistant because many have aluminum in their structure even before you infuse them with stormlight or spren. The shardplate had a connection to the identity they added and finding it to free it became imperitive for a couple of reasons. There would be another Shardblade to revive (he has a strong desire to heal the Spren at this point) and of course to release the Spren from imposed slavery. Because he now held remnants of the previous Radiant's identity he did have to reaffirm those oaths to heal the Spren of the Blade, but he may also have needed to swear new oaths specific to himself. From my perspective Identity acts as a key to connection. He also never summoned plate he released spren of dead plate that he shared an identity connection with. I am really surprised that none of you said his using stormlight could be complicated thus potentially limiting living plate and surges. In wounding him with the shard investiture the Skybreaker imposed some of the combined identity of himself and the spren into Quicksilver thus giving him access to it to store, and the jolt of burning away the investiture innate in the attack also caused problems for both the spren and the Skybreaker especially since they weren't expecting it. Quicksilver wasn't glowing so how did they know he wasn't normal with attitude flouting their authority. Feruchemy by definition is connection to both aspects of Harmony, Ruin and Preservation. So a stretch, Yeah. Grant the same surges or require the same oaths problably not, but I haven't explored that here yet except to hint at potential lesser splinter status at that time. For that matter he might become the avatar granting bondsmith status representing Harmony on Roshar. Yes any of the spren could break the bond or accept the oath to someone holding at least some of the previous radiants identity as they choose, but it was my narrative and they chose to accept the oaths. No not directly related to Identity except for the connections forged through identity to the Nahel bonds and his own connection to Harmony through Feruchemy. I don't know that they break working principles but they could be said to go against currently working assumptions. With the broad variety of combinations in Scadrian magic it very well could do nearly anything other systems do. For me the big open hole that is aluminum has that potential on its own. Like many of you who are convinced in the near invincibility of Radiants I see no reason to reject that idea from my perspective. Rosharans at this point are not familiar with revolvers or firearms, but guys in armor are part of Quicksilvers history. Rosharans see people who glow as invested, but he is used to invested threats looking like regular people. After reviving the first blade he knew more about Radiants than modern radiants do. So yes he quickly had a major advantage over his Rosharan oponents. I have met several people with that kind of accuracy from range. Later opponents didn't require as much accuracy since he dis-armored them first within reasonable pistol range. At this point most people seem to use surges directly on their target, but throwing stones like Kal did fighting Amram would certainly be effective. He would probably need to steal a Razium dagger to store up Anti-light into metal minds before hand though with his seeker ability to differentiate light he might be able to invert though intent light into anti-light from the transfer to store in his metal minds. As a seeker he would also be sensitive to bonded Spren as potential targets for any aluminum or antilight weapons. @ScadrianTank It would largely depend on the size and penetration of the Ettemetal round used. Any penetration drastically increases the effectiveness. Edited March 27, 2021 by BenduLuke
Frustration Posted March 27, 2021 Posted March 27, 2021 3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said: In wounding him with the shard investiture the Skybreaker imposed some of the combined identity of himself and the spren into Quicksilver thus giving him access to it to store, and the jolt of burning away the investiture innate in the attack also caused problems for both the spren and the Skybreaker especially since they weren't expecting it. Quicksilver wasn't glowing so how did they know he wasn't normal with attitude flouting their authority. Shardblades sever, they don't add
BenduLuke he/him Posted March 27, 2021 Posted March 27, 2021 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Frustration said: Shardblades sever, they don't add How do they sever? What do they sever? Why do they sever? What is the force behind their severing? I contend that they expose their connection and identity during the process. Edited March 27, 2021 by BenduLuke
Frustration Posted March 27, 2021 Posted March 27, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, BenduLuke said: How do they sever? What do they sever? Why do they sever? What is the force behind their severing? They cut the soul. Spoiler logosgal If you cut a plant with a Shardblade, does it die like an animal, or cut like an inanimate object? Brandon Sanderson Shardblades would treat plants as they would an animal, not cutting them, but severing the soul. General Twitter 2013 (Sept. 11, 2013) I don't see how anything else is relevant. Edited March 27, 2021 by Frustration
BenduLuke he/him Posted March 27, 2021 Posted March 27, 2021 (edited) 1 minute ago, Frustration said: They cut the soul. Hide contents logosgal If you cut a plant with a Shardblade, does it die like an animal, or cut like an inanimate object? Brandon Sanderson Shardblades would treat plants as they would an animal, not cutting them, but severing the soul. General Twitter 2013 (Sept. 11, 2013) I don't see how anything else is relevant. With what do they cut the soul? Why do they cut the soul? I contend that it involves their identity in contact with the target identity Edited March 27, 2021 by BenduLuke
Frustration Posted March 27, 2021 Posted March 27, 2021 2 minutes ago, BenduLuke said: With what do they cut the soul? Why do they cut the soul? I contend that it involves their identity in contact with the target identity And do you have any evidence to back that up?
BenduLuke he/him Posted March 27, 2021 Posted March 27, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Frustration said: And do you have any evidence to back that up? Look we are not talking about a Katana here. Why do they cut the soul? Just because isn't an answer. What is the mechanism because it is not the sharpness of the blade so it must be something else. Do you have evidence that contradicts my idea? The sentience of the spren supports that idea that it is identity. Thanks for limiting your critique to one idea Edited March 27, 2021 by BenduLuke
Frustration Posted March 27, 2021 Posted March 27, 2021 1 minute ago, BenduLuke said: Look we are not talking about a Katana here. Why do they cut the soul? Just because isn't an answer. What is the mechanism because it is not the sharpness of the blade so it must be something else. The basic function of the Shardmetal, just as Lerasium can make someone a Mistborn. 1 minute ago, BenduLuke said: Do you have evidence that contradicts my idea? Not having evidence to the contrary isn't evidence to support it, there isn't evidence that says that corrupted Dustbringers can't splinter shards, but that isn't evidence in support of it. 3
Chinkoln he/him Posted March 27, 2021 Posted March 27, 2021 2 minutes ago, BenduLuke said: Why do they cut the soul? Just because isn't an answer. What is the mechanism because it is not the sharpness of the blade so it must be something else. I feel like that is a pretty valid answer. We have entities that live in the cognitive realm that have transitioned to the Physical, and have taken the shape of a weapon. With our current knowledge “just because” is very correct. 1
BenduLuke he/him Posted March 27, 2021 Posted March 27, 2021 1 minute ago, Frustration said: The basic function of the Shardmetal, just as Lerasium can make someone a Mistborn. Not having evidence to the contrary isn't evidence to support it, there isn't evidence that says that corrupted Dustbringers can't splinter shards, but that isn't evidence in support of it. I am not sure I accept that is the basic function of shard metal only an unexplained consequence of being cut by it. Its function is manifesting in the physical realm in whatever form. Right but without another mechanism, explanation, or evidence to the contrary then my idea works and doesn't even contradict your critique. 1 minute ago, Chinkoln said: I feel like that is a pretty valid answer. We have entities that live in the cognitive realm that have transitioned to the Physical, and have taken the shape of a weapon. With our current knowledge “just because” is very correct. Just because, is a place holder until the mechanism is explained, but it still leaves open room to theorize on the mechanism until it is explained.
Frustration Posted March 27, 2021 Posted March 27, 2021 2 minutes ago, BenduLuke said: I am not sure I accept that is the basic function of shard metal only an unexplained consequence of being cut by it. Its function is manifesting in the physical realm in whatever form. Right but without another mechanism, explanation, or evidence to the contrary then my idea works and doesn't even contradict your critique. So it being a base effect of the metal doesn't work for you but identity does? I'm not sure I follow, if it was identity then spren could cut people apart by flying through them in spren form.
BenduLuke he/him Posted March 27, 2021 Posted March 27, 2021 Just now, Frustration said: So it being a base effect of the metal doesn't work for you but identity does? I'm not sure I follow, if it was identity then spren could cut people apart by flying through them in spren form. It is their identity when they are a sword in the physical realm that allows them to use their identity to cut connection in the spiritual realm. They don't do it when they take other non cutting forms or don't have a physical identity currently active.
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