Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[Aspiring Writer]

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

From what I have seen connection and identity are both interconnected and inseparable.

We do not know this or even if it is how that necessarily works. Please step away from this thought process.

[Frustration]

5 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

If a Spren can only form a solid object then a Shard pistol would be a no go, but if it is dependent on what the Radiant knows about then moving parts might not be a problem. The bullets could be like manifesting Shardplate or in my scenario it might even be some of the other higher Spren. Bullets wouldn't be a problem they are solid. Just replace them in charged casings he already has for his pistols.

Having a Forger write an Identity to know how to maximize burning Lerasium  and using that Identity on Sel could avoid any problem. In the coppermind one of the examples was of a Forger writing a soul into a full mistborn. The other solution is to store that Identity in aluminum to be tapped anywhere. That would mean the identity is linked to the metal and thus to Harmony and not to Sel anymore. Forging someone into having more allomantic powers might work since they are already innately invested that way you are just giving them more conduits for that investiture.

During the bonding process (it takes 3 days) with the dead shardblade I presume that that the person links some of their identity with that of the blade. I also presume that with that link a Truesoul might be able to transfer some of the blades identity into a metal mind perhaps the part related to the broken bond, perhaps even some residual shadow of the Radiants identity remembered in the blade. If that were possible it facilitate reviving the Spren especially if the person then forged a more powerful bond through oaths. Again I am speculating on how storing Identity works. Identity does seem to be something which can be permanently tapped or stored.

1. Shardguns are possible
2. We know that blades can physically touch aluminum, there is nothing to indicate that plate cannot
3. adding the ability to burn metals is an increase in investiture
4. An invested individual would resist being soulstamped, so your agent would be just as difficult as a normal person even when storing Identity.
5. it takes five days to bond a blade
6. no indication that identities merge for Radiants+spren
7. no indication that the spren would retain identity, especially after both a broken bond and death.
8. Again all speculation so it doesn't help you

3 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

@LewsTherinTelescope So living plate can seal, but most shardbearers or Radiants out of stormlight would suffocate if the face plate sealed.

I was thinking that a Thug/Steelrunner would prove to be a formidable opponent. Pewter physical enhancement with stored pewter speed ferrruchemically tappable. Give him some invested steel armor for protection from hits, windresistance and Friction and a durable heavy hammer and some aluminum spikes to use after shattering his opponents armor and most Radiants would be hurting. Only those who can stay out of reach would have any safety, but he could probably shot put throw the hammer (I think it is actually called a hammer throw) a good distance up let alone long for effect. Steelrunner speed added to pewter enhanced physical abilities in the hammer throw.

1. a thrown hammer is not a reliable way to break plate
2. Why heavy armor? that doesn't help you at all.

2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I mean a Radiant in their Plate without Stormlight has bigger issues, considering it's not unlikely that it will completely lock up. And Radiants are probably more common than plain Shardbearers, honestly, so the latter (while dangerous) aren't the main group for Scadrians to be worried about here anyway.

I don't think it would lock up, otherwise a Radiant past fourth oath would have to always have stormlight or they would be stuck, the armor is always there after all.

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

We haven't seen much aluminum used since it is very rare on Roshar only available from Horneater peaks or soulcasting which is stated as very difficult so we really haven't seen it used as a weapon.

From what I have seen connection and identity are both interconnected and inseparable.

1. If aluminum was so good Fused would use it instead of Raysium as their weapon of choice.
2. Identity and Connection are different things

Spoiler

Dirigible (paraphrased)

If you tapped blank Identity in an area, would you develop the area's accent?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It's part of what you need. You need to both blank your Identity and tap Connection to get the accent.

Footnote: Sanderson interpreted this question as blanking identity.
Arcanum Unbounded Fort Collins signing (Nov. 29, 2016)

 

[Aspiring Writer]

41 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I don't think it would lock up, otherwise a Radiant past fourth oath would have to always have stormlight or they would be stuck, the armor is always there after all.

Yeah, probably not, more likely it just loses its more 'mecha' properties (Increase in strength and speed, etc.) and just be like regular armor, but even if it did, they can just dismiss it.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Yeah, probably not, more likely it just loses its more 'mecha' properties (Increase in strength and speed, etc.) and just be like regular armor, but even if it did, they can just dismiss it.

It's always there, just invisible

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I don't think it would lock up, otherwise a Radiant past fourth oath would have to always have stormlight or they would be stuck, the armor is always there after all.

I'm assuming it's "always there" in the way a Shardblade is "always there" as a spren, considering it does not seem to be physically present as armor. I mean, the very next sentence literally compares it to a Shardblade.

[Bejarden he/him]

Jasnah dismisses her Plate and needs to wait time for it to come back.

I think you can Connect to a Spren then you Sever the Connection and when you want the plate back you ReConnect with the same or different spren.

[Aspiring Writer]

42 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It's always there, just invisible

So is the spren that's their blade, it's still called dismissing.

[Frustration]

19 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I'm assuming it's "always there" in the way a Shardblade is "always there" as a spren, considering it does not seem to be physically present as armor. I mean, the very next sentence literally compares it to a Shardblade.

 

1 minute ago, Aspiring Writer said:

So is the spren that's their blade, it's still called dismissing.

 

Brandon felt the need to Italicize  the phrase "Always there" and Blades are never given the term invisible, it also points out how Rlain can't feel it, which doesn't make sense if the plate disperses.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

it also points out how Rlain can't feel it, which doesn't make sense if the plate disperses.

....why would it not make sense that he can't feel it if it's not physically present as metal?

Quote

Kaladin stepped up beside Rlain and rested a hand on his shoulder. Rlain couldn’t feel the Plate, though it was apparently always there—invisible, but ready when needed. Like a Shardblade, but made up of many spren.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

....why would it not make sense that he can't feel it if it's not physically present as metal?

it doesn't make sense to point it out if it's not physically present.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

Just now, Frustration said:

it doesn't make sense to point it out if it's not physically present.

And comparing it to a Shardblade doesn't make sense if it is. My guess is it just means the spren is always there (maybe even always in the form of Plate, just nonsolid). If it's actually physically present as metal, it's kind of weird that it doesn't interact with anything physically.

[Frustration]

Just now, LewsTherinTelescope said:

And comparing it to a Shardblade doesn't make sense if it is. My guess is it just means the spren is always there (maybe even always in the form of Plate, just nonsolid). If it's actually physically present as metal, it's kind of weird that it doesn't interact with anything physically.

I read that as a comparison to make understanding it easier.

It doesn't say that it doesn't interact with anything physically, just that they couldn't feel it, but you can feel through plate so I don't see why that's an issue, you can also somewhat see through the helmet of deadplate so it being invisible doesn't seem to be a problem either.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I read that as a comparison to make understanding it easier.

But that comparison doesn't really make sense with what you're proposing it means at all.

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It doesn't say that it doesn't interact with anything physically, just that they couldn't feel it, but you can feel through plate so I don't see why that's an issue, you can also somewhat see through the helmet of deadplate so it being invisible doesn't seem to be a problem either.

So far we've only seen either of those things from the person inside, though I suppose it's not implausible that it could work the other way around.

There's also this (RoW 64):

Quote

He was trailed by a small group of servants. As they reached her, he snapped his fingers, and the servants rushed forward to towel down Jasnah’s armor. She dismissed her helm, opening her face to the air—which felt cold, despite Emul’s heat. She left the rest of her armor in place. She didn’t dare remove it, in case enemies came hunting her.

She dismisses it, and the description makes it clear it's actually not there, as does her worry about the armor not protecting her if it's dismissed.

Edited April 2, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

But that comparison doesn't really make sense with what you're proposing it means at all.

I don't entirely understand what you mean.

2 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

There's also this (RoW 64):

She dismisses it, and the description makes it clear it's actually not there, as does her worry about the armor not protecting her if it's dismissed.

There is a (in my opinion) simple explanation for this

it's the same reason that Szeth needed ten heartbeats to summon the Honorblade, or Kaladin's brands didn't heal

Perseption,

Jasnah thought that if it was dissmissed it wouldn't protect her so it didn't.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I don't entirely understand what you mean.

What I mean is that comparing it to a Shardblade doesn't really make sense if it doesn't work remotely similarly to dismissing a Shardblade.

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Jasnah thought that if it was dissmissed it wouldn't protect her so it didn't.

But if it's physically there, why would that matter?

[Frustration]

Just now, LewsTherinTelescope said:

What I mean is that comparing it to a Shardblade doesn't really make sense if it doesn't work remotely similarly to dismissing a Shardblade.

It makes sense to me at least.

1 minute ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

But if it's physically there, why would that matter?

I don't know on that, what I do know is that it seemed to be saying that Kaladin's plate was always on, wether that be due to perception or it being a theorised Order specific thing, or something else to do with being a Son of Tanavast, I can't say.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It makes sense to me at least.

If the Plate is always present as actual Plate, how is that similar enough to a Shardblade turning into a nonphysical spren for it to really be a meaningful comparison?

[The Technovore he/him]

 

Spoiler

5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I mean a Radiant in their Plate without Stormlight has bigger issues, considering it's not unlikely that it will completely lock up. And Radiants are probably more common than plain Shardbearers, honestly, so the latter (while dangerous) aren't the main group for Scadrians to be worried about here anyway.

Pretty unlikely, since we see in RoW that Kaladin has his plate "always on but invisible" regardless of whether or not he's breathing in stormlight. Deadplate requiring Light to function is likely a limitation by virtue of being dead--like how a deadblade requires 10 heartbeats and only takes one form.

LOL nvm, I didn't see the entirely new page full of stuff contesting this. 

Edited April 2, 2021 by The Technovore

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

If the Plate is always present as actual Plate, how is that similar enough to a Shardblade turning into a nonphysical spren for it to really be a meaningful comparison?

Spren are at least partially physical, Pattern and Syl can't go through walls or anything like that.

[+graciemoo she/her]

32 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I read that as a comparison to make understanding it easier.

It doesn't say that it doesn't interact with anything physically, just that they couldn't feel it, but you can feel through plate so I don't see why that's an issue, you can also somewhat see through the helmet of deadplate so it being invisible doesn't seem to be a problem either.

How would that work realistically though? I feel like if it was exactly the same as when summoned, just invisible, it'd be pretty obvious that it's still 100% there. But if the spren are all still there in armor form, invisible and not manifested as metal, then it's pretty much exactly the same as a shardblade. ("Always there" meaning the Radiant doesn't have to summon the spren from their surroundings like they do when they first reach the 4th ideal)

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, graciemoo said:

How would that work realistically though? I feel like if it was exactly the same as when summoned, just invisible, it'd be pretty obvious that it's still 100% there. But if the spren are all still there in armor form, invisible and not manifested as metal, then it's pretty much exactly the same as a shardblade. ("Always there" meaning the Radiant doesn't have to summon the spren from their surroundings like they do when they first reach the 4th ideal)

That's why it's italicized, I could see that interpretaion being what happens but the italicisation makes me think that it should be taken at face value.

And how would it be obvious to an outsider? Just based on the functions we've seen it's within the limits of plausability to say that it would be indistinguishable.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Spren are at least partially physical, Pattern and Syl can't go through walls or anything like that.

True, I just mean that they're not giant hunks of metal, they're weird partly physical, partly not, things. Not remotely comparable to Plate remaining as an actual very effective piece of magic armor. It would be like if Kal walked around and Syl was just stuck as a giant invisible spear across his back.

3 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

LOL nvm, I didn't see the entirely new page full of stuff contesting this. 

oops

4 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

Deadplate requiring Light to function is likely a limitation by virtue of being dead--like how a deadblade requires 10 heartbeats and only takes one form.

That's fair, though even if it doesn't lock up, it's going to stop regenerating (this part's not speculation, Jasnah explicitly says it "lapped up her Stormlight to repair itself"), so while they're in less trouble than a bearer of deadplate, they'd still be at greatly heightened risk. (Definitely would still a force to be reckoned with, however, if it doesn't lock.)

Edited April 2, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[+graciemoo she/her]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That's why it's italicized, I could see that interpretaion being what happens but the italicisation makes me think that it should be taken at face value.

And how would it be obvious to an outsider? Just based on the functions we've seen it's within the limits of plausability to say that it would be indistinguishable.

I guess I'm just a bit confused as to what you're saying... If it's manifested as a solid the whole time wouldn't you not be able to touch that person? And what would be the purpose in summoning the plate if it works exactly the same while invisible? (Sorry if I'm misinterpreting what you're saying)

[Frustration]

Just now, graciemoo said:

I guess I'm just a bit confused as to what you're saying... If it's manifested as a solid the whole time wouldn't you not be able to touch that person? And what would be the purpose in summoning the plate if it works exactly the same while invisible? (Sorry if I'm misinterpreting what you're saying)

No you have my ideas right, as to why you can feel through it, we know From Dalinar PoV's that shardplate let's it wearer feel things through it, so it would just be that both ways, as for why making it visible a number of reasons

1. It looks cool,
2. it's an easy way for their subbordinates to recognise them
3. I think it would be increadibly comforting to see your armor when you need it rather than just knowing it's there but that's just me.

[VeryNiceName]

My understanding was that it was like Shardblades but the spren didn’t move from the person’s body, they just sat there.