Long Game 61: A Radiant Light

[+Ed Venture]

11 hours ago, Elbereth said:

You might want to reread this.  

7 hours ago, Furamirionind said:

Your post looks to me as if you are changing you mind mid post, though I find that interesting as your post is short enough there isn't a ton to motivate any change.
Why do you find Elandera suspicious? It looks to me like you are seemingly voting on her for no reason. 
Why aren't you voting on Drake? It sounds to me like you suspect him most.

2 hours ago, drakemarshallow said:

Anyways, I am voting/poking/stabbing/whateverit'scallednow Butt Ad Venture (@Butt Ad Venture) at least until they elaborate upon their vote a bit more.

Elb is right, I wanted to vote on her, not Elandera. Mistakes were made. However I think that I'm not going to vote on her anymore.  

However Fura, I am going to place my new vote on Drake. I suspected him second...hmm...third I guess, to Araris and Elb. But...I'm feeling better about those two, specifically Araris.

[Straw he/him]

1 hour ago, Sart said:

At this point, the people voting on Elandera seem too evil to be evil. It's too bold of a play for an Elim to back a lynch with literally no backing. I'm going to place a vote on Straw. He's only made one short post, but he both implicated the members of Elandera's train, and then placed a poke vote. It seems like he's trying to skate by without contributing anything.

First of all, I'd rather not get lynched D1 again. It happened already in LG20.

I made a short post because I had five minutes to read the thread and make a post. I was then busy for 12 hours, so I haven't had very much time to make another post.

Also, "I sense a conspiracy" wasn't meant to imply that they were elims, it was just a joke.

I'm going to keep my vote on Aman for now. I don't think that anyone is super suspicious right now, and I'd like to get all players talking first. If you've played with me before, this shouldn't be too surprising.

[Elbereth she/her]

23 minutes ago, Butt Ad Venture said:

Elb is right, I wanted to vote on her, not Elandera. Mistakes were made. However I think that I'm not going to vote on her anymore.  

However Fura, I am going to place my new vote on Drake. I suspected him second...hmm...third I guess, to Araris and Elb. But...I'm feeling better about those two, specifically Araris.

 You don’t want to vote on me anymore? Give me one good reason Drake is more suspicious than me! (Or more.) 

[+Ed Venture]

27 minutes ago, Elbereth said:

 You don’t want to vote on me anymore? Give me one good reason Drake is more suspicious than me! (Or more.) 

Because I said so.

I make most of my votes by instinct. Not many reasons there. But...you're acting too chaotic. At least Drake makes some semblance of sense. You're just trying to get lynched? I think? See? You're too confusing to try to lynch.

[Guest Coda]

Brightness Dejda sat in the corner, lost and confused. People were not voting for the very obviously suspicious Brightness Tintellë because she was too suspicious, even though her death would benefit no one except perhaps the Ghostbloods. "I vote for Brightness Tintellë(Elbereth) because of her obvious suspicion."

 

(There is no reason I can think of that someone would want to die to fulfill a win condition. Elbereth is the only suspicious character).

[Elbereth she/her]

I mean, Jester roles (who win by being lynched) do exist occasionally, but I doubt I'd be quite this blatant about it.  

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

2 hours ago, Butt Ad Venture said:

Elb is right, I wanted to vote on her, not Elandera. Mistakes were made. However I think that I'm not going to vote on her anymore.  

However Fura, I am going to place my new vote on Drake. I suspected him second...hmm...third I guess, to Araris and Elb. But...I'm feeling better about those two, specifically Araris.

See, this is where I would have removed my vote because you explained yourself, but then you voted on me 

Edit:

Quote

I mean, Jester roles (who win by being lynched) do exist occasionally, but I doubt I'd be quite this blatant about it.  

I thought it was an exact rerun of LG20(?) so I doubt there would be secret roles.

Edited November 12, 2019 by drakemarshallow

[Furamirionind They/Any/All]

2 hours ago, Elbereth said:

I mean, Jester roles (who win by being lynched) do exist occasionally, but I doubt I'd be quite this blatant about it.  

Come now, El. As there is no Jester in the rules, I wouldn't put it past you to be this obvious as a secret Jester. However, I'm beyond 100% confident you are not one of those. Also, with an already existing third faction in the Thief, I find it very unlikely there would be a fourth secret faction (especially with only 15 players total).
@Fifth Scholar @Devotary of Spontaneity @Snipexe are there any secret rules?
And while I'm at it, where are my PMs? :'(

Lastly, I have no idea why I am spending any amount of time thinking about this. But it is what I feel like analyzing, so whatever. : )

4 hours ago, Butt Ad Venture said:

Elb is right, I wanted to vote on her, not Elandera. Mistakes were made. However I think that I'm not going to vote on her anymore.  

However Fura, I am going to place my new vote on Drake. I suspected him second...hmm...third I guess, to Araris and Elb. But...I'm feeling better about those two, specifically Araris.

Interesting. Why do you feel better about Araris? To quote your previous statement, you said:

Quote

Well...I’m not sure what’s going on with the votes for Elandera, so currently everyone who has posted is suspicious. Araris and El for their seemingly random- oh...wait. Yeah it’s Araris’s thing. Elandera. Taking a poke vote and making it a lynch vote? I don’t like this. But...drake was is clearing too easily and Striker is not voting on El after expressing paranoia about her actions.

Emphasis mine.
This seems to be saying that while you might normally suspect someone doing what Araris did, you don't because it is Araris. How did this neutral read change to some variant of slight elim and back to at least neutral in between your posts?

Also, I know you vote based on instinct. So do I. In fact, I think few people vote purely on analysis. However, I am wondering why you are less suspicious of El. Is it because her erraticity has continued?

1 hour ago, drakemarshallow said:

See, this is where I would have removed my vote because you explained yourself, but then you voted on me 

Just for clarification, you are saying that the purpose of your vote is now a retaliation vote?

6 hours ago, Sart said:

At this point, the people voting on Elandera seem too evil to be evil. It's too bold of a play for an Elim to back a lynch with literally no backing. I'm going to place a vote on Straw. He's only made one short post, but he both implicated the members of Elandera's train, and then placed a poke vote. It seems like he's trying to skate by without contributing anything.

I encourage you to see LG55's D1 lynch. Backing (or creating) a baseless lynch has happened, and I think it is actually a great way for an elim to look like they are contributing early. In fact, an elim can do just about anything if they pull it off right. First, I disagree that El seems too evil to be evil, and Araris has been strictly NAI so far. I agree that Venture has been interesting this game, but I don't think he has been TWtbaW yet either.
However I'll grant you, I rarely grant people the TWtbaW defense.

Lastly, a wise man once mentioned that we should be wary of anyone who targets Straw early in a game. Just worth pointing out.
Again though, I'll grant you, I can understand finding this:

17 hours ago, Straw said:

Huh, immediate votes on Elandera? I sense a conspiracy.

I'll poke Amanuensis for now.

suspicious. However, knowing Straw, I don't think this is particularly AI either.

4 hours ago, Butt Ad Venture said:

I make most of my votes by instinct. Not many reasons there. But...you're acting too chaotic. At least Drake makes some semblance of sense. You're just trying to get lynched? I think? See? You're too confusing to try to lynch.

For what it's worth, El's posts don't seem to be asking to be lynched imo. Just my opinion though.

[Devotary of Spontaneity]

3 minutes ago, Furamirionind said:

 Are there any secret rules?                                     *Feel free to submit a death rattle and see what happens
And while I'm at it, where are my PMs? :'(

The only* differences from the LG20 ruleset have been specified, so there are no secret rules. This does mean that no PMs can be created until N1 at the earliest.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

1 hour ago, Furamirionind said:

Just for clarification, you are saying that the purpose of your vote is now a retaliation vote?

Kind of? I'm fairly optimistic about finding a better lead this cycle, but for now, you may consider it a vote in retaliation to a vote in retaliation to my vote, yes. Right now I'm mostly just concerned with progressing the D1 lynch past choosing people at complete random.

Edited November 12, 2019 by drakemarshallow

[Amanuensis he/him]

Hi everyone. I've been a bit overwhelmed IRL lately, but I'll do my best to be active from this point going forward. In the process of reading the adjusted rules and posts I've missed now.

ED1T:

• (2) Elandera: Araris Valerian, Elbereth, 
• (1) Amanuensis: Straw, 
• (1) Butt Ad Venture: drakemarshallow, 
• (1) Straw: Sart, 
• (1) drakemarshallow: Butt Ad Venture, 
• (1) Elbereth: Coda, 

ED2T: 

For now I'll use my limited time to give my quick thoughts on these votes.

Araris' vote is NAI. At a cursory glance, the content of Araris' two other two posts don't add much. However, I like that he noticed the 0-vote minimum, did something about it, and informed the thread of the danger, even if it came almost a day later (assuming my math is right). Not a hard thing to do as an elim (especially as an explanation in retrospect), but I think it's worth giving him the benefit of the doubt for now.

Elbereth's vote at it's root (along with her behavior this game) is not very elim-efficient, and now that I think about it, not very neutral-efficient, either. I can believe she is too busy to take this game seriously and planned for that before receiving the role. Unfortunately that means it's harder to determine her alignment based on interactions. Action speak louder than words in this case. I wouldn't mind it if a Spy checked her out sometime soon to see if she is keeping any concerning secrets.

Elandera... no clue honestly. I don't have a lot of time right now so I'll come back to her later.

Straw is probably village.

Venture mistakenly voting for Elbereth over Elandera is interesting, though I'm not sure it's worth reading too much into. If Venture is an elim I could see the slip coming from being partners with one of the Els. That said, I haven't noticed anything that helps me lean village or elim for Venture himself.

As for Drake, his content overall seems clean. Not that that's outside his skills as an elim. I felt one of his posts was unusually defensive but I'll have to go back to find it later.

I read Sart's post like 6 times and am having trouble taking much away from it. The RP mixed with opinions is always difficult for me to keep straight in my head. If I'm wary of anything it's his vote on Straw. Any time someone votes for Straw D1 my gut tends to scream "EVIIIIL!" at them. So yeah, leaning elim there until I have a good reason to believe otherwise.

That leaves Coda of the voters. New player? If so, I'm really impressed. 4 posts total and most of them filled with questions. This both shows initiative and drive, which I typically attribute to villagers, especially to those players with less experience. This is my most confident (and only significant, really) village read at the moment.

Bonus round: Striker. Has been noted to be all-over the place. I would expect that to come from village!Striker over elim!Striker. Especially since he hasn't voted for me yet. He always votes me when he's evil >>

Edited November 12, 2019 by Amanuensis

[Fifth Scholar he/him]

3 hours ago, Furamirionind said:

Also, with an already existing third faction in the Thief, I find it very unlikely there would be a fourth secret faction (especially with only 15 players total).
@Fifth Scholar @Devotary of Spontaneity @Snipexe are there any secret rules?
And while I'm at it, where are my PMs? :'(

Asking about secret rules is always a dangerous question. 

Quote

The only* differences from the LG20 ruleset have been specified, so there are no secret rules. This does mean that no PMs can be created until N1 at the earliest.

Or you can just ask somebody less trollish than myself.  

Edited November 12, 2019 by Fifth Scholar

[Elbereth she/her]

Fura’s right, I’m not trying to get lynched. But I don’t really care if I am. 

Aman, I would argue that my behavior is reasonably village efficient.  

[Amanuensis he/him]

4 minutes ago, Elbereth said:

Aman, I would argue that my behavior is reasonably village efficient.  

I'm not so sure. Generally speaking, I think the best thing any villager can do is convince others they are village. Without scans the ideal way to do that is being consistent and proactive in finding elims. Process of elimination is a tried-and-true method for winning as village, and the longer a villager's alignment remains obscure, the longer it takes to narrow down the real eliminators.

[+Ed Venture]

6 hours ago, Furamirionind said:

Interesting. Why do you feel better about Araris? To quote your previous statement, you said:

Quote

Well...I’m not sure what’s going on with the votes for Elandera, so currently everyone who has posted is suspicious. Araris and El for their seemingly random- oh...wait. Yeah it’s Araris’s thing. Elandera. Taking a poke vote and making it a lynch vote? I don’t like this. But...drake was is clearing too easily and Striker is not voting on El after expressing paranoia about her actions.

Emphasis mine.
This seems to be saying that while you might normally suspect someone doing what Araris did, you don't because it is Araris. How did this neutral read change to some variant of slight elim and back to at least neutral in between your posts?

Also, I know you vote based on instinct. So do I. In fact, I think few people vote purely on analysis. However, I am wondering why you are less suspicious of El. Is it because her erraticity has continued?

*sigh* This has been eaten by the Shard twice now. Third times a charm?

Close, I find Stab voting suspicious no matter who does it. But Araris has been trying to talk it down; she’s...more innocent. Still suspicious but...Stab votes are a part of SE now. I dislike it, can’t see how it helps in most games. But they’re a thing now.

Yes, it’s because of her seeming arbitrary posting. I can’t understand what they’re trying to achieve. I know there aren’t Joker roles but I could easily b convinced otherwise. A lynch on her would be useful? But I think that we’d get more letting them live. For now at least...

Sigh...this is hard. Decisions, decisions. Drake I’ll return before rollover, see what I can vote for.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

7 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Bonus round: Striker. Has been noted to be all-over the place. I would expect that to come from village!Striker over elim!Striker. Especially since he hasn't voted for me yet. He always votes me when he's evil >>

Amanuensis

Seriously though, I voted on you as an elim in the one elim game I was in. I’d hardly say that’s a pattern of my behavior as an elim.

Also, I do agree that it’s more helpful for the village if villagers try to be like villagers...but also it’s kinda fun to be erratic.

[Furamirionind They/Any/All]

5 hours ago, Fifth Scholar said:

Asking about secret rules is always a dangerous question. 

Well, I expected you to PAFO. That's why I had 2-3 follow ups ready, and why I pinged your co-GMs as well ; )

1 hour ago, Butt Ad Venture said:

Close, I find Stab voting suspicious no matter who does it.

Didnt you explicitly state in your first post that you were letting Araris off the hook for it?

1 hour ago, Butt Ad Venture said:

But Araris has been trying to talk it down; she’s...more innocent.

Does "talk(ing) it down" make someone more innocent? Could an elim do this?

1 hour ago, Butt Ad Venture said:

Still suspicious but...Stab votes are a part of SE now. I dislike it, can’t see how it helps in most games. But they’re a thing now.

Why dont you like stab votes? Does the fact that Araris does this every game regardless of allignment change your opinion of him at all?

1 hour ago, Butt Ad Venture said:

Sigh...this is hard. Decisions, decisions. Drake I’ll return before rollover, see what I can vote for.

...why are you removing your vote from Drake? It seems to me you are changing your vote everytime someone challenges you. Also, while the statement, "I'll return before rollover" is something true for many villagers, it is also a common elims do SK that they can vote on a bandwagon. If you hadnt removed your vote, I wouldnt be as concerned. 

As we are less than 12 hours left in the turn, I think I should formally recognize Venture as the person I am most suspicious of. However, my mind is not necessarily set.

Venture

[Araris Valerian he/him]

7 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Venture mistakenly voting for Elbereth over Elandera is interesting, though I'm not sure it's worth reading too much into. If Venture is an elim I could see the slip coming from being partners with one of the Els.

Could you clarify this? I would think a slip up like this would be less likely if Venture was partnered with one of these players.

I also agree with Fura about Venture being suspect. I'm just not sure if this is Venture doing things I personally disagree with, versus Venture doing elimy things.

2 hours ago, Butt Ad Venture said:

Close, I find Stab voting suspicious no matter who does it.

I think this is dangerous, and ties in with what I said above about you. There is a difference between sub-optimal play and suspicious play. For example, I think that basing votes on sound analysis when possible is more optimal than placing a gut vote. That doesn't mean that we should necessarily suspect the player who places a gut vote. Now I think as a community we should try to encourage optimal play (which is rather subjective, I know), without basing our in-game decisions on whether or not another person is playing according to personal definitions of optimal. Certainly a villager who is able to successfully hunt out other elims will be able to give credibility to their own village alignment. But a villager who is just sort of floundering isn't guaranteed to be an elim.

I've stated before, and in this thread, why I think a Stab Vote is, if not optimal, at least more helpful than a poke vote. Nobody has presented me with an argument to the contrary to convince me (and such an argument might belong in the Game Meta thread), so I'll continue.

What is optimal also changes between rulesets, and I think the fact that a single vote creates credible lynch pressure this game makes a Stab Vote a more useful tool than it would be otherwise.

[Rathmaskal he/him]

1 hour ago, Furamirionind said:

Well, I expected you to PAFO. That's why I had 2-3 follow ups ready, and why I pinged your co-GMs as well ; )

Didnt you explicitly state in your first post that you were letting Araris off the hook for it?

Does "talk(ing) it down" make someone more innocent? Could an elim do this?

Why dont you like stab votes? Does the fact that Araris does this every game regardless of allignment change your opinion of him at all?

...why are you removing your vote from Drake? It seems to me you are changing your vote everytime someone challenges you. Also, while the statement, "I'll return before rollover" is something true for many villagers, it is also a common elims do SK that they can vote on a bandwagon. If you hadnt removed your vote, I wouldnt be as concerned. 

As we are less than 12 hours left in the turn, I think I should formally recognize Venture as the person I am most suspicious of. However, my mind is not necessarily set.

Venture

One: Apologies for the late arrival.  At least I got here in time for D1!

Two: This is pretty much what I was outlining in my head as I was reading through the posts so far...

Venture

[Amanuensis he/him]

1 hour ago, StrikerEZ said:

Amanuensis

Seriously though, I voted on you as an elim in the one elim game I was in. I’d hardly say that’s a pattern of my behavior as an elim.

Also, I do agree that it’s more helpful for the village if villagers try to be like villagers...but also it’s kinda fun to be erratic.

You're mistaken, Striker. It happened twice in a row, and IIRC they were the only games you were evil in that I also played in. See the links below.

That comment was a joke nonetheless. Of course I'm not seriously reading you based on that . I was leaning village because of your lack of direction.

ED1T: Never mind. I was mistaken. I called you out for being the Inquisitor as a joke in LG58, but it was BR, I think, then later Elandera. I could have sworn you got me again at one point... oh well. Lately my memory has been in shambles, it seems.

...

1 hour ago, Araris Valerian said:

Could you clarify this? I would think a slip up like this would be less likely if Venture was partnered with one of these players.

My line of thought was elim!Venture wants to vote for town!Elandera, but accidently types elim!Elbereth's name because their being teammates puts her name in the forefront of his mind once he starts typing "El." Alternatively, the vote on Elandera could have been meant as a distancing attempt, only for him to subconsciously put the village El's name. Of the two the first slip seems more reasonable, but overall, neither are very likely. That situation unfolding and being remarked on by several players caused it to manifest as a data point in my head, and I figured it was worth consideration.

ED2T:

• (3) Butt Ad Venture: drakemarshallow, Furamirionind, Rathmaskal, 
• (2) Elandera: Araris Valerian, Elbereth, 
• (2) Amanuensis: Straw, StrikerEZ, 
• (1) Straw: Sart, 
• (1) Elbereth: Coda, 

Edited November 12, 2019 by Amanuensis

[+Ed Venture]

2 hours ago, Furamirionind said:

Didn't you explicitly state in your first post that you were letting Araris off the hook for it?

[It's more of an admittance that Stab voting is a thing they do. Not me letting anyone off the hook, not me agreeing with it.]

Does "talk(ing) it down" make someone more innocent? Could an elim do this?

[Eh...yeah. I'm trying to say that Araris, and others, are saying that it's a normal thing, "talking it down." And I'm grudgingly accepting that]

Why don't you like stab votes? Does the fact that Araris does this every game regardless of alignment change your opinion of him at all?

[The problem with Stab Votes is that they don't help, they're an excuse for early game bandwagoning on people who have no posts. They're a tool that could be useful in the right hands, but I think Stab votes are like using a mace to hammer in a nail.]

...why are you removing your vote from Drake? It seems to me you are changing your vote every time someone challenges you. Also, while the statement, "I'll return before rollover" is something true for many villagers, it is also a common elims do SK that they can vote on a bandwagon. If you hadn't removed your vote, I wouldn't be as concerned. 

[I know I'm bad at voting. I'm just self-conscious. And I had no intention of voting on a bandwagon. I do my own (often bad) thing.]

As we are less than 12 hours left in the turn, I think I should formally recognize Venture as the person I am most suspicious of. However, my mind is not necessarily set.

[That's fair. But I don't want to be lynched off of a spat about Stab votes. You voting on me however is suspicious]

 

2 hours ago, Araris Valerian said:

I also agree with Fura about Venture being suspect. I'm just not sure if this is Venture doing things I personally disagree with, versus Venture doing elimy things.

[I'm sure it's just personal grievances. ]

I think this is dangerous, and ties in with what I said above about you. There is a difference between sub-optimal play and suspicious play. For example, I think that basing votes on sound analysis when possible is more optimal than placing a gut vote. That doesn't mean that we should necessarily suspect the player who places a gut vote. Now I think as a community we should try to encourage optimal play (which is rather subjective, I know), without basing our in-game decisions on whether or not another person is playing according to personal definitions of optimal. Certainly a villager who is able to successfully hunt out other elims will be able to give credibility to their own village alignment. But a villager who is just sort of floundering isn't guaranteed to be an elim.

I've stated before, and in this thread, why I think a Stab Vote is, if not optimal, at least more helpful than a poke vote. Nobody has presented me with an argument to the contrary to convince me (and such an argument might belong in the Game Meta thread), so I'll continue.

What is optimal also changes between rulesets, and I think the fact that a single vote creates credible lynch pressure this game makes a Stab Vote a more useful tool than it would be otherwise.

[I hadn't looked at them like that, I guess your use of them makes more sense, even if I still disagree. Do you think we could drop it, maybe talk on a meta thread about them if you want to discuss more? I'm not one for hindering discussion.]

Now I could vote on Elandera in an effort to save myself, I could vote on Fura for making a mountain out of a molehill, I could vote on myself for the same reason. But I'm not. Not for now.

Vote tally:
(2) Elandera: Araris Valerian, Elbereth
(1) Amanuensis: Straw
(3) Butt Ad Venture: drakemarshallow, Fura, Rath
(1) Straw: Sart
(1) Elbereth: Coda
(1) Aman: Striker

Edited November 12, 2019 by Butt Ad Venture

[Elandera she/her]

1 hour ago, Amanuensis said:

My line of thought was elim!Venture wants to vote for town!Elandera, but accidently types elim!Elbereth's name because their being teammates puts her name in the forefront of his mind once he starts typing "El." Alternatively, the vote on Elandera could have been meant as a distancing attempt, only for him to subconsciously put the village El's name. Of the two the first slip seems more reasonable, but overall, neither are very likely. That situation unfolding and being remarked on by several players caused it to manifest as a data point in my head, and I figured it was worth consideration.

It would then be the opposite, as he voted on me and not Elbereth (I think I may need to change my name... this is getting confusing, even for me  ). So you would believe that Venture intended to vote on village!Elbereth, but voted on elim!Elandera, meaning the first three votes of a game just happened to land on an elim at random. While not impossible, it's very implausible.

However, my counter is this: If Venture and I were teammates, I think he would have been more aware that he had been typing the wrong name. It doesn't seem like the kind of mistake Venture would make were he on a team with either El-. The more likely scenario is that he is on a team with neither of us, and simply made a mistake.

[Amanuensis he/him]

Just now, Elandera said:

It would then be the opposite, as he voted on me and not Elbereth (I think I may need to change my name... this is getting confusing, even for me  ). So you would believe that Venture intended to vote on village!Elbereth, but voted on elim!Elandera, meaning the first three votes of a game just happened to land on an elim at random. While not impossible, it's very implausible.

However, my counter is this: If Venture and I were teammates, I think he would have been more aware that he had been typing the wrong name. It doesn't seem like the kind of mistake Venture would make were he on a team with either El-. The more likely scenario is that he is on a team with neither of us, and simply made a mistake.

Oh. For the record, I'm not saying I believe these scenarios. I stream-of-conscious most of my posts and especially when I'm in a rush, I don't have time to double check facts or take all my thoughts to their logical conclusions. Me thinking Striker voted on me D1 twice as an elim, me mixing up Brass and Zinc, and this all being sufficient examples If anything I would lean that Venture's mess-up is more village indicative than not, since eliminators tend to be a lot more careful.

[Elandera she/her]

25 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Oh. For the record, I'm not saying I believe these scenarios. I stream-of-conscious most of my posts and especially when I'm in a rush, I don't have time to double check facts or take all my thoughts to their logical conclusions. Me thinking Striker voted on me D1 twice as an elim, me mixing up Brass and Zinc, and this all being sufficient examples If anything I would lean that Venture's mess-up is more village indicative than not, since eliminators tend to be a lot more careful.

I fully understand.  It's why I tend to be unspecific when referring to things I'm unsure about when I'm in a hurry. Easier to not make mistakes.

I mostly wanted to point it out since it was a good segue into my defense of Venture, not necessarily against your points. Some of his stuff has been a bit off, but not in the ways I'd expect from elim!venture. It seems more like village!venture mistakes.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

I don’t actually think Aman is an elim, I was just voting on him as a joke. I don’t particularly think Venture is an elim, and I’m kind of unsure about Elandera, so I’m gonna vote on her to get the chance that we don’t lynch someone I think is village and maybe lynch an elim since I’m unsure of Elan’s alignment.