[Theory] It has been foreshadowed that Adolin will be a Radiant.

[maxal]

That's fair enough, and I admit I'm more on the 'Adolin will become a KR' side of the fence. I'm just not so sure that theories where Adolin doesn't become a KR don't have him facing the consequences for having murdered Sadeas. I think either way you look at it, in a world where the Skybreakers are returning, whether he does or doesn't become an incipient Surgebinder would put his head on the chopping block. In essence, while there have been some theories that are more interesting than others (see: Adolin will be exiled and then discover his powers), I think that having Sadeas' murder on his hands will, one way or another, ensure that his character arc won't turn out patently boring.

I agree with your point that we need more firepower in the KRs. With regard to that, Adolin would be a good fit. However, I'm not sure how much that speaks for it, given that the orders revealed so far haven't really been the combat-oriented ones, with the exception of the Windrunners and the very tentative glimpse we've gotten into the Skybreakers.

 

Dalinar is right on one point: KR of the past are said to be warriors. They wielded shardblades and were deadly. Now, from Jasnah, we learned that not all KR were warriors, that many were in fact scholars. Interesting. More interesting is the fact that most of the KR we have seen so far are indeed scholars.

 

Now, if we look at our small crew, we have:

 

Dalinar, Bondsmith: A warrior agreed and a badass one, but also an aging one who probably won't be taking part in any battles. His role is to lead now.

 

Shallan, Lightweaver: We have inklings that Shallan may learn how to use her shardblade, but sincerely, how good can you get at swordfighting in a short lapse of time? Adolin started learning when he was 6. Kaladin started with the spear at 15, but when he tries the sword, he muses on how much more difficult it is than the spear. He is amazed by Zahel and Adolin's skill with the sword.

 

Renarin, Truthspeaker: Honestly, he Renarin goes about an become a warrior, I will get seriously mad. I mean, the guy is nearly useless in any fighting situation he has ever been in. He tries, he wants to (mostly because he feels warriors are the most useful persons), but he is just not cut for it. He would serve the story better if he just acknowledge that his skills do not lie on the battle field.

 

Kaladin, Windrunner: OK, we have one badass warrior, but not one that can wield a shardblade with dexterity. He sucks with a blade and he has no intention on getting better. He wants to get fighting with a spear and that is fine by me. Kaladin with a sword just wouldn't be Kaladin.

 

So we need SOMEONE with skill with a shardblade to join our crew. We can argue that we have Szeth and Eshonai, but so far, both are fighting on the other side. Therefore, we need some badass shardblade wielding guy (or girl) to join Dalinar.

 

Adolin really just fit the bill. If not him then who? Lift? Lift is a kid and does not know how to fight even if her order is said to be one of warriors. Besides, she is very far away from the main crew. Who else is there? Please do not say Elhokar....... He is no warrior either. Our Dustbringer must be terrible and there is no way Elhokar will ever be *that* person.

[Kasimir]

maxal, on 20 Apr 2014 - 03:40 AM, said:

Dalinar is right on one point: KR of the past are said to be warriors. They wielded shardblades and were deadly. Now, from Jasnah, we learned that not all KR were warriors, that many were in fact scholars. Interesting. More interesting is the fact that most of the KR we have seen so far are indeed scholars.

Here's the two points on which I suspect we disagree:

1. The extent to which the KR were warriors. I suspect that with Alethkar being the kingdom focused on war, the part of the KR that would stick out to/for them is their prowess in combat. The KRs Dalinar does see in his visions tend to be from the combat-oriented orders, namely the Windrunners and the Stonewards. But at least at first glance through the order and Surge lists, it's not immediately obvious that we'll have many warriors. The obvious few seem to be: Stonewards, Windrunners, Skybreakers, Dustbringers. WoR and what Darkness says seems to imply we have fighting Edgedancers, but off-hand, they sound more like rogue-builds than warriors. Excluding Taln and assuming that Nalan and Szeth can be considered representative Skybreakers, we've only seen two of the four combat orders. And that's out of ten KR orders, for perspective.

However, it's most likely the case that in Desolations, many KRs had to fight, regardless of order. In addition, we know from Malchin that some Lightweavers turned out to be badass warriors. So I'm going to say that I would disagree with closing the gate on Renarin and Shallan, regardless. It may be that Stormlight grants them advantages regular fighters don't. But I will also agree that they would be wasted as fighters. It's clear they're better off doing other things.

2. I disagree that, as you put it, "we need someone with skill with a shardblade to join our crew." That's not clearly the case at all. Why? Because the KRs are renowned warriors? The KRs existed a long time ago, and in a place like Alethkar, it's not surprising that after Vorinism considering the KRs to be charlatans, the only thing that would remain associated with the KRs is fighting prowess. But I suspect the reason you've given is a meta-reason: and in the same way, appealing to meta0reasons, I don't see why the narrative needs a KR swordmaster now. Eventually? Yes. That Adolin's battle prowess will come in useful, I don't doubt. I do question the evident reasons that meta-reasons suggest there's some function he'll be fulfilling with those skills only if he were a KR.

In the same way, WoR is only the second book. If it were the fifth, I might understand why we would be looking to our pool of existing characters for more KRs. As it stands, because it is only the second book, I don't see why Sanderson can't introduce new characters, as is likely to be the case. So I also disagree that 'It must be Adolin, because who else can it be?' That is is unlikely for a blademaster apart from Adolin to pop up is, I think, a point I will concede. That we've seen everyone who is to come so far, is something I definitely disagree with. In fact, there's a WoB (though it might have changed), that Taln and another Herald will be getting books in the final five. If we are to assume Taln is the representative of the Stonewards, then it appears we'll be getting a Herald Dustbringer in the final books. Terrible, check.

Edited April 19, 2014 by Kasimir

[maxal]

Here's the two points on which I suspect we disagree:

1. The extent to which the KR were warriors. I suspect that with Alethkar being the kingdom focused on war, the part of the KR that would stick out to/for them is their prowess in combat. The KRs Dalinar does see in his visions tend to be from the combat-oriented orders, namely the Windrunners and the Stonewards. But at least at first glance through the order and Surge lists, it's not immediately obvious that we'll have many warriors. The obvious few seem to be: Stonewards, Windrunners, Skybreakers, Dustbringers. WoR and what Darkness says seems to imply we have fighting Edgedancers, but off-hand, they sound more like rogue-builds than warriors. Excluding Taln and assuming that Nalan and Szeth can be considered representative Skybreakers, we've only seen two of the four combat orders. And that's out of ten KR orders, for perspective.

However, it's most likely the case that in Desolations, many KRs had to fight, regardless of order. In addition, we know from Malchin that some Lightweavers turned out to be badass warriors. So I'm going to say that I would disagree with closing the gate on Renarin and Shallan, regardless. It may be that Stormlight grants them advantages regular fighters don't. But I will also agree that they would be wasted as fighters. It's clear they're better off doing other things.

2. I disagree that, as you put it, "we need someone with skill with a shardblade to join our crew." That's not clearly the case at all. Why? Because the KRs are renowned warriors? The KRs existed a long time ago, and in a place like Alethkar, it's not surprising that after Vorinism considering the KRs to be charlatans, the only thing that would remain associated with the KRs is fighting prowess. But I suspect the reason you've given is a meta-reason: and in the same way, appealing to meta0reasons, I don't see why the narrative needs a KR swordmaster now. Eventually? Yes. That Adolin's battle prowess will come in useful, I don't doubt. I do question the evident reasons that meta-reasons suggest there's some function he'll be fulfilling with those skills only if he were a KR.

In the same way, WoR is only the second book. If it were the fifth, I might understand why we would be looking to our pool of existing characters for more KRs. As it stands, because it is only the second book, I don't see why Sanderson can't introduce new characters, as is likely to be the case. So I also disagree that 'It must be Adolin, because who else can it be?' That is is unlikely for a blademaster apart from Adolin to pop up is, I think, a point I will concede. That we've seen everyone who is to come so far, is something I definitely disagree with. In fact, there's a WoB (though it might have changed), that Taln and another Herald will be getting books in the final five. If we are to assume Taln is the representative of the Stonewards, then it appears we'll be getting a Herald Dustbringer in the final books. Terrible, check.

 

I suspect we indeed disagree to some extend on certain points Dalinar's vision involved mostly fighting as I suspect the Desolation and what came after was mostly war oriented. I do not think Alethkar become such a war oriented society out of the blue. It must be a remnant of another time when war was necessary for survival. However, it kept going and going even after it was necessary. Modern Althekar didn't need to be a waring society, but it was nonetheless. I do believe warrior KR were necessary and highly thought of since they did most of the ground work. I do support your affirmation there. We tend to remember more the ones you were seen and not the ones working in the shadow.

 

I do agree that most order were not combat oriented, which correlates to Jasnah assessment of the KR. I do agree that some non-combat oriented order turned being warriors out of necessity. I am not saying we won't see Shallan fighting at some point, but I do not think she will ever become very good at it (not Adolin or Kaladin's style). Same with Renarin. He is just not the warrior type. He cannot even walk in his shardplate without looking ridiculous and the shardplate is not screaming. Really. Renarin's role is not on the front line and I hope he realises this soon.

 

What I do find strange is that of all the KR we have so far met, none struck me as the warrior type. In fact, appart from Kaladin, all the surgebinders we have met having warrior-like skill were on the ennemy camp. Which is why I am thinking we need on of those, one of those KR that made the legend. Shardblades were the weapons of the KR so I do find it strange that none of our good guy knows how to use one. Adolin is hardly the only swordmaster we met: others have shown to have skill, however Adolin is the only one who was fleshed out as a character which is why I think he ought to be him.

 

Bottomline is, my main reasoning is that despite knowing many KR were not warriors, the most remembered (or renowed) were badass warriors wielding shardblades. We do need al least ONE of those and Adolin is the best swordsman we have met so far. He has very KR qualities attached to him (good heart, honest, brave, etc), but he has the issue of not being broken. Hence, the murder, hence the possible love triangle, hence all his relatives being KR and not him (basically hence why he is betrothed to Shallan and why Renarin is KR), hence the greater than great almost God-like father with strong standards he litteraly worships, hence the perfect setup for a very hard fall. And thus we may get one of those KR that made the legend  

 

Agree it could be some other character we haven't met yet, but it would be deceiving. Sanderson has to do something with Adolin and just set him up to be the regular highseat forever walking in his father's shadow or the ultimate bad guy after spending some much time describing the good person he is would be very frustrating on a reader point-of-vue.

[Kingjf92]

I first discovered Brandon Sanderson as an author through WoT, and boy am I glad I did because this series was just what I was looking for to fill the void that requires an epic fantasy. Since I began this series Adolin has been my second favorite character and I have been hoping that his role would continue to grow as the series progressed. I believe that he will become a KR and it's for the same reasons that have been listed throughout this forum, and this topic thread particularly, and the fact that he has had multiple POVs, and I think he's close behind Kal and his father for most could be wrong on that part, throughout both novels. To me an author doesn't use a specific character for multiple POVs unless they have a big role for planned for them in the future. We have seen this in other epics such as WoT with the three ta'vern and A Song of Ice and Fire with the still alive Stark children excluding Rickion. Finally we know that there will be ten volumes representing the 10 Surges, Heralds, etc., each with a different focal character. Here are those characters:

 

Brandon Sanderson revealed that each of the ten books in the series will have a focal character who gets flashbacks.^[2] Brandon listed the ten major view point characters for the series to be:^[3]

• Kaladin, featured in The Way of Kings.
• Shallan
• Szeth
• Navani
• Dalinar
• Adolin
• Jasnah
• Taravangian
• Taln
• Another Herald

 

So according to this list I count 5 KRS (yes I'm including Szeth because of his encounter with Nal) and two Heralds (the other Herald IMO will be Jezerien). As for Taravangian I believe he will be the champion Odium uses because he will become angry and jealous of Dalinar's position. Sorry for the length.

 

 

[maxal]

I first discovered Brandon Sanderson as an author through WoT, and boy am I glad I did because this series was just what I was looking for to fill the void that requires an epic fantasy. Since I began this series Adolin has been my second favorite character and I have been hoping that his role would continue to grow as the series progressed. I believe that he will become a KR and it's for the same reasons that have been listed throughout this forum, and this topic thread particularly, and the fact that he has had multiple POVs, and I think he's close behind Kal and his father for most could be wrong on that part, throughout both novels. To me an author doesn't use a specific character for multiple POVs unless they have a big role for planned for them in the future. We have seen this in other epics such as WoT with the three ta'vern and A Song of Ice and Fire with the still alive Stark children excluding Rickion. Finally we know that there will be ten volumes representing the 10 Surges, Heralds, etc., each with a different focal character. Here are those characters:

 

Brandon Sanderson revealed that each of the ten books in the series will have a focal character who gets flashbacks.^[2] Brandon listed the ten major view point characters for the series to be:^[3]

• Kaladin, featured in The Way of Kings.
• Shallan
• Szeth
• Navani
• Dalinar
• Adolin
• Jasnah
• Taravangian
• Taln
• Another Herald

 

So according to this list I count 5 KRS (yes I'm including Szeth because of his encounter with Nal) and two Heralds (the other Herald IMO will be Jezerien). As for Taravangian I believe he will be the champion Odium uses because he will become angry and jealous of Dalinar's position. Sorry for the length.

 

Actually, I believe the flashbacks are set to go as follow:

 

1) Kaladin / Windfinder

2) Shallan / Lightweaver

3) Szeth / Skybreaker

4) Eshonai / Unconfirmed but probably Willshaper as it is the most popular theory, I think.

5) Dalinar / Bondsmith

 

The first five were confirmed. Now, as far as I know, the stakes are still open for the last five, but Brandon has already announced the flashback for four of the last five to be (in no specific order):

 

Jasnah / Elsecaller

Renarin / Truthwatcher

Taln / Stonewards

Lift / Edgedancer

 

Number 10 has not been confirmed, at least I haven't found any confirmation of it. I am dying/hoping the last one would be Adolin, but it isn't sure. Basically, we know for sure who 8 out the 10 knights are. Willshaper and Dustbringer are the two open spots. Current theories place Eshonai as the Willshaper and Adolin as the Dustbringer, but none have been confirmed as far as I know. I have read people putting Elhokar somewhere as well (and I so hope that won't be the case). Other theories mention Rlain as well.

 

The Navani book was dropped as her story plot would be covered by Dalinar's book. Adolin's backstory would also be covered in part by Renarin's flashback (we better get cute brotherly love there) so it may be he won't be getting a book, but since we know we have one book per order, one could argue that is a bad omen for Adolin becoming KR.

 

Argh.

 

Useless to say that if by book 4 we have Eshonai as our Dustbringer and Elhokar as our Willshaper (Elhokar as a KR in my worst nightmare, really), I will scream my head out. Adolin is one of my favorite character and he deserves an order. He just needs to break down a little, which is quite on the way of happening based on the ending of WoR.

Edited April 29, 2014 by maxal

[kadolin]

Assuming each of the books representing one KR order and one main story protagonist who belongs to that order. We have

• Kaladin / Windfinder
• Shallan / Lightweaver
• Taln / Stonewards
• Dalinar / Bondsmith
• Jasnah / Elsecaller
• Renarin / Truthwatcher
• Lift / Edgedancer
• Szeth / Skybreaker
• Eshonai / Willshaper
• ? / Dustbringer

So far by the end of WoR, the abovementioned 9 KR have been introduced even if not revealed as a KR sucessor.

Eshonai was introduced as The Explorer with a love of adventure, possible hints of being a Willshaper candidate . A future book reserved for more of her story strongly indicates her joining one of the orders even tho there has been no such precedence for her kind, which makes for an interesting development imho. The comet like spren sighting also adds some weight to this theory.

Szeth has been recruited by the Herald of the Skybreakers and been dedicated a book for more of his story, so rather reasonable to assume he is on his way to becoming one. And his book title change from Stones Unhallowed to Skybreaker makes it even more believable.

Lift was abruptly introduced in an interlude that has not much to do with the events in WoR and no connection with the rest of the main characters and yet a future book is reserved for more of her story. Her surgebinding powers are already revealled in her debut chapter which makes it strange that we might have an unknown 10th KR.

Renarin didnt play a major part in the story so far but he has already been revealled as an KR rather suddenly, no major story arc (perhaps unrevealed but not mentioned at all unlike the rest) to break him and yet he has bonded with his spren.

So what's the significance of this mysterious 10th KR not being revealed like the rest? The rest of the KR has met their spren, manifest abilities or been dedicated a book by now.

That leaves me believing that the 10th KR has already been introduced with Adolin on his way to becoming one. No other existing characters are significant or appropriate by far. His battle prowess, his sense of right and wrong (saving the prostitue, sharing kaladin's unjust punishment, believing in kaladin's accusations) and his ryshadium horse all but put him as a good candidate for one.

His act of killing Sadaes was also confirmed to not be an elimination factor according to Brandon who states that there are orders who would agree with his actions which could well be what leads him to his distinct order, possibly the dustbringers being the only one left. The dustbringer shardplate reference in Dalinar's vision adds a littie weight as well.

Edited July 28, 2014 by kadolin

[maxal]

...

 

I believe Brandon does not want to commit himself just yet about Adolin. He most likely is the 10th KR, but he still has such a long way to go it is premature to declare him as such. Brandon has stated in a WoB that we have met future representative of each orders, but not all of them currently have a spren. I have always thought he meant Adolin by this as we know Eshonai has a spren, perhaps Szeth has one (I wouldn't be surprised, but I would hate it), Taln is a mystery, but his path is pretty much set anyway.

 

I think with Adolin, Brandon wants to show us the journey before destination. All other characters we have met have already reached their destination: they all have a spren and they all are well in the way to become full fledged KR. All except Adolin, who has everything to become a KR, but has not proven himself yet, ie he has not gone through the hardship of the journey, he has not shown his true colors.

 

He could also want to show us having good first attributes does not make one a Radiant. It could be Adolin will ultimately fail at proving himself worthy and will thus go down. I sincerely hope this does not happen, but I do believe that if Adolin makes it to KR, it will be after a long, muddy, gruesome journey as he will have to watch everyone he loves turn away from him and he will have to lose everything he holds dear. He already lost his Ryshadium, so my guess if he'll lose his shards in the next book, he'll lose Dalinar's trust as well, he'll lose his brother's friendship, he'll lose his betrothed, basically, he'll lose it all. Now the question is what will he do next and how will he cope?

 

Overall, if Brandon goes outright and declare Adolin future KR now, it will sort of ruin the journey he'll go through. A live one, not throught flashbacks like we've had with the others.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

i like this thought. 

 

I am re-reading WoR right now, and just read chapter 51, from Adolin's PoV following his and Shallan's date at the Highstorm viewing establishment. 

 

The chapter title is "Uncut Gems". While it may just refer to the uncut gems that Sadaes is wearing on his jacket, I'd like to think that it also references Adolin and his path towards the KR. He is uncut, rough still, though with time and effort he can be made into a beautiful gem of a Radiant

[maxal]

i like this thought. 

 

I am re-reading WoR right now, and just read chapter 51, from Adolin's PoV following his and Shallan's date at the Highstorm viewing establishment. 

 

The chapter title is "Uncut Gems". While it may just refer to the uncut gems that Sadaes is wearing on his jacket, I'd like to think that it also references Adolin and his path towards the KR. He is uncut, rough still, though with time and effort he can be made into a beautiful gem of a Radiant

 

I think you are not the first one to make that link... There could be something there, but the term "uncut gem" has also been used to described the Willshaper, Eshonai's most probable order, so I dunno how much we should be reading on that one.

[kadolin]

After taking some time to read WoB, He intends for one book to focus on one KR order and one POV character but the POV character does not necessarily have to be a KR. Also, Brandon even included Adolin & Navani as one of the major characters with POV initially. Possibly due to too many potential POV characters, 10 KR, a couple of Heralds, a parshendi etc. He could be planning to condense Adolin's & Navani's background stories with Renarin's & Dalinar's.

Another important realization as I read through WoB was that Brandon stated ALL the KR are humans and the parshendi are not humans. While I dont think parshendi could be reverted to humans, we will need to RAFO more about parshendi history. For now, these two facts rules out Eshonai as one KR, she is just a POV worthy character incorporated into one of the books that focus on one of the KR, likely with a relation to her story.

And somewhere in WoB, Brandon also stated he wanted to include another Herald's POV, someone he hasnt decided on yet. Considering he once viewed Navani and Adolin as important POV characters and he claims that we have met everyone, I am now speculating that Navani is of Willshaper and Adolin is of Dustbringer! Navani and her fabrial technology advancement might be plausible with the oddity & enteprising descriptions of the Willshapers order but I wont discuss about her in this thread that much.

As for Adolin and speculations about turning evil, i disagree. It was rage (Dustbringer fiery justice i imagine) and perhaps instinct that lead him to strike Sadeas to prompty remove a dire threat to the ones he love. (Sadeas had Dalinar, himself & even Shallan almost killed, on multiple occassions) Adolin did not "lose his control". His reaction on "killing a high prince" and his attempts to cover up his involvement were more of a worry about the political ramifications for him or more so for his father.

I believe he will admit his actions to Dalinar (or keep him in the dark to protect him), Shallan and Kaladin (who would likely both understand what he did.) So I think his actions would only endanger his relationship with Dalinar at most or his political standing (I doubt he cares much for but Amaram/Sadeas got away with much more). He might need to watch his back against Skybreakers or Sadeas's wife I think.

@maxal

It could the case that Adolin's journey to becoming a KR is worth the suspense but I wont be surprised if all the KRs are revealed in the nxt few books, considering about half are already revealed by book 2.

Edited July 29, 2014 by kadolin

[maxal]

After taking some time to read WoB, He intends for one book to focus on one KR order and one POV character but the POV character does not necessarily have to be a KR. Also, Brandon even included Adolin & Navani as one of the major characters with POV initially. Possibly due to too many potential POV characters, 10 KR, a couple of Heralds, a parshendi etc. He could be planning to condense Adolin's & Navani's background stories with Renarin's & Dalinar's.

 

I have been wondering about that and I believe I have stated it in another thread. Mainly, knowing each book featured a given order, I have been asking myself if the planned flashbacks were necessarily the ones of the featured KR. We know he gave up the idea of a Navani book as her backstory would be mostly covered by the Dalinar book. As for Adolin, his story would also be covered within the Renarin's flashbacks, although I have been also wondering if the flashbacks from the second arc would not be covering events happening between both series instead of before. If this were the case, then yes an Adolin book would make sense as I suspect many things may happen to him between books, providing he survives that long.

 

 

Another important realization as I read through WoB was that Brandon stated ALL the KR are humans and the parshendi are not humans. While I dont think parshendi could be reverted to humans, we will need to RAFO more about parshendi history. For now, these two facts rules out Eshonai as one KR, she is just a POV worthy character incorporated into one of the books that focus on one of the KR, likely with a relation to her story.

 

 

He said Parshendi were not traditionally allowed to be made Radiants, but that things were changing. I assumed it either meant Eshonai will be a Radiant or that Shen will be a squire. Since Eshonai has a planned flashback book and since we have this quote about her "comet-like spren", I guess everyone pretty much assumed she would be the Willshaper. Oh and she was also described as the Explorer on the back of WoR and all who are mentioned on the backcover are KR so........ However, I wouldn't mind if she didn't end up a KR.

 

 

And somewhere in WoB, Brandon also stated he wanted to include another Herald's POV, someone he hasnt decided on yet. Considering he once viewed Navani and Adolin as important POV characters and he claims that we have met everyone, I am now speculating that Navani is of Willshaper and Adolin is of Dustbringer! Navani and her fabrial technology advancement might be plausible with the oddity & enteprising descriptions of the Willshapers order but I wont discuss about her in this thread that much.

 

I know he said those things, but it also appears he changes his mind quite often... Most of the flashback characters have been announced, except for one. The identity of 9 out of 10 KR has also been confirmed, unless you are right and Eshonai does not end up being a KR. If this were the case, then I like the idea of Navani taking up that role. I do not recall seeing any speculation on her for this. I have thought she may end up being an Elsecaller like Jasnah, others have mentioned Skybreakers (which I think is highly improbable), but I have never heard anyone mentioning Willshapers. I must say I like this theory. I have heard Rysn mentioned as well as a potential KR for the Dustbringer of the Willshaper. I believe she would fit the later better then the former as I just cannot see anyone else than Adolin for Dustbringer. I know, I may be setting myself for a huge disappointment here

 

 

As for Adolin and speculations about turning evil, i disagree. It was rage (Dustbringer fiery justice i imagine) and perhaps instinct that lead him to strike Sadeas to prompty remove a dire threat to the ones he love. (Sadeas had Dalinar, himself & even Shallan almost killed, on multiple occassions) Adolin did not "lose his control". His reaction on "killing a high prince" and his attempts to cover up his involvement were more of a worry about the political ramifications for him or more so for his father.

I believe he will admit his actions to Dalinar (or keep him in the dark to protect him), Shallan and Kaladin (who would likely both understand what he did.) So I think his actions would only endanger his relationship with Dalinar at most or his political standing (I doubt he cares much for but Amaram/Sadeas got away with much more). He might need to watch his back against Skybreakers or Sadeas's wife I think.

 

 

Dustbringers do sound like a wild bunch of young fools    which is why I root for Adolin to become one. I have always seen them as the rogues of the KR who needed to be bound by obedience in order to prevent them from turning into complete wildcards. I believe their second oath probably is along the lines of "I will do what is right even if it is wrong" or something similar.

 

I believe he will tell Dalinar at some point. He respects and worships his father too much to keep him in the dark about something so big. He won't be able to stand Dalinar unstoppable praise and trust knowing he is undeserving. Their relationship will most likely shattered, but I believe that, in the end, it is Adolin unquestionable trust in Dalinar and his instincts to obey his father (who are deeply ingrained) that will save him from the worst.

 

 

@maxal

It could the case that Adolin's journey to becoming a KR is worth the suspense but I wont be surprised if all the KRs are revealed in the nxt few books, considering about half are already revealed by book 2.

 

Well I think it will worth the suspense, if not why put so much mystery on the identity of our Dustbringer? Why refusing to state if Adolin will become KR or not? Because it would ruin the story. I guess the story will work better if we don't know how it'll end. It could also be Brandon wants us to believe Adolin could make it to KR, but have him failed in the end Bad Brandon

[kadolin]

He said in pretty much those exact words, that the parshendi are not humans. And on another occasion when asked if the KR are all humans, he stated it was so.

Edit: http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=%27radiants%27 [#18]

As for historically KR not accepting parshendi/parshmen; he did say that but left it hanging. For the same question on another occasion, he added that while stating it historically, doesnt imply that there will be a potential change.

The first two statements are enough on its own to eliminate Eshonai as a candidate unless she somehows becomes human. ( Wouldnt mind either way tbh )

Edit: Forgot about Rysn! Hmm not much is known but afew of the descriptions matches her quite nicely too.

Edited July 29, 2014 by kadolin

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

He said in pretty much those exact words, that the parshendi are not humans. And on another occasion when asked if the KR are all humans, he stated it was so.

Edit: http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=%27radiants%27 [#18]

 

I read that quote as a historical one. I think the intent of the question was "were there whole orders that were not human? I.e. Parshendi?", and Brandon confirms that they were all human. 

 

That doesn't speak to the future...

[kadolin]

@Green Hoodie Mistborn

I get where you are going and I considered it a possibility. The question was phrased "Are all of the orders of Knights Radiant human?" and not "Were" neither is it "Will" as well. So I am leaning towards Brandon's intent for all the KR to be humans in the present (which I consider as implying for the rest of the series, otherwise he might as well said RAFO.)

While there was no specific context, i suspect the one who asked it was fishing for possibilities of parshendi becoming KR instead of asking it directly.

Edit: I am liking Rsyn more as a potential candidate for Willshapers.. but I have a whole lot of questions more lol...sigh, this will take too long to finally get answers.

Edited July 29, 2014 by kadolin

[maxal]

He said in pretty much those exact words, that the parshendi are not humans. And on another occasion when asked if the KR are all humans, he stated it was so.

Edit: http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=%27radiants%27 [#18]

As for historically KR not accepting parshendi/parshmen; he did say that but left it hanging. For the same question on another occasion, he added that while stating it historically, doesnt imply that there will be a potential change.

The first two statements are enough on its own to eliminate Eshonai as a candidate unless she somehows becomes human. ( Wouldnt mind either way tbh )

Edit: Forgot about Rysn! Hmm not much is known but afew of the descriptions matches her quite nicely too.

 

I had more these in mind when I wrote my post:

 

Q:  Do we see the highspren at all in Words of Radiance? And if so, do they look like a comet?

A:  That's a good question. That's a gooood, good question. I will say this, the comet, hmm, the comet spren. The comet spren is very important to an order of Knights Radiant.

 

Q:  Is Eshonai going to be a Radiant?

A:  In the past, parshmen/Parshendi were not allowed to become Knights Radiant.  However, what I said might imply that that could change.  But no promises.

 

It more or less confirms Eshonai as a Radiant, probably a Willshaper. We know she has a spren and we know it is one attached to an order. Comet-like spren and Eshonai's personality really fit well with the Willshaper, so I wouldn't call it a done deal, but say a close to done deal at to Eshonai upcoming Radianhood.

 

Also, I mentioned Rysn because her name gets mentioned from time to time by other posters, but I feel she is a very minor character who will likely remain very minor, unlike Lift whom we know will grow in importance. I therefore doubt she will be part of out 10, but we can still theorized. We know some of the main characters of the second arc currently are interlude characters. Brandon said characters, he used plural. Lift and Taln, both current interlude characters have been announced as major for the second arc. With our current main crew hopefully returning (probably minus Dalinar ), there is not much place left for Rysn to become major.

Edited July 29, 2014 by maxal

[hoser]

As for the possibility of listeners becoming Radiants, I find the quote from the listener song of spren at the beginning of ch. 33 very intriguing.

Quote

But it is not impossible to blend

Their Surges to ours in the end.

It has been promised and it can come.

...

I interpret this to mean that there is a possibility of them becoming Surgebinders at least.

"Promised" (italics mine) is an interesting word choice. Is it a prophecy or did someone with power like, say, Cultivation, maybe tell them it could happen?

Edit: question mark ends question

Edited July 29, 2014 by hoser

[kadolin]

maxal, on 30 Jul 2014 - 12:53 AM, said:

maxal, on 30 Jul 2014 - 12:53 AM, said:

..

Q: Do we see the highspren at all in Words of Radiance? And if so, do they look like a comet?

A: That's a good question. That's a gooood, good question. I will say this, the comet, hmm, the comet spren. The comet spren is very important to an order of Knights Radiant.

Q: Is Eshonai going to be a Radiant?

A: In the past, parshmen/Parshendi were not allowed to become Knights Radiant. However, what I said might imply that that could change. But no promises.

..

The comet-like spren theory still has some wriggle room to be consistent with what he claims about KR are all humans. They may be attracted to her for reasons unrevealed yet, not necessarily her path to KR. She is focused on one of the books that is tied to one of the orders though the connection might be something else and she may not end up as a KR. My point is some of what he says are restrictive and straightforward (eg KR all humans; parshendi not humans) but this is particular is still flexible. Mmm good lies..

How he responds to the direct question on Eshonai being a KR is indirect. He says it has never happened before (doesnt mean it will happen now). I perceived it as his way of saying no indirectly. By adding that he doesnt promise anything implies that he may consider. Either of which is not how he usually responds to a question that hits close to his story. Mmm lies..

But I have been to both sides of this debate and tbh I wonder if anything more revealed in the next book or so will change views. Could she become human then a KR? Or perhaps she bonds with comet-like spren and becomes something different, not a KR? I guess I might leave it as an unrevealed KR in addition to the dustbringers. If she could be I dont know how, might be cool. If she isnt, i wonder if Rysn or Navani can be one.

Another thing to ponder about, there were many KR back then, now they plan to reform the orders. Are we seeing one from each or significantly more?

@hoser

Ah I remember but the blending might mean an evolution to something unknown, rather than a simple addition of powers. The result may not be a KR. The rest of the Listener Song of Spren as follows:

Or do we understand the sum?

We question not if they can have us then,

But if we dare to have them again.

Also Honorblades will allow Parshendis to surgebind i believe, they have quite afew in custody. Could this be what makes it possible to blend surges?

Edited July 29, 2014 by kadolin

[Moogle]

The comet-like spren theory still has some wriggle room to be consistent with what he claims about KR are all humans. They may be attracted to her for reasons unrevealed yet, not necessarily her path to KR. She is focused on one of the books that is tied to one of the orders though the connection might be something else and she may not end up as a KR. My point is some of what he says are restrictive and straightforward (eg KR all humans; parshendi not humans) but this is particular is still flexible. Mmm good lies..

 

Not to weigh in on the debate (though I favor Eshonai becoming a KR): I'm still reasonably confident that the cometspren around Eshonai is her Shardblade.

 

Shardblades 'scream' all the time for those who can hear them. Eshonai's spren appearing coincides with the screams in her head that she constantly hears. From WoR:

That rhythm! It sounded like . . . like her own voice yelling at her. Screaming in pain. What was that? She shook her head, and found that she had reflexively pulled her hand to her chest in anxiety. When she opened it, the cometlike spren shot out.

 

I doubt that Eshonai attracted the cometspren like Kal attracted Syl. She hasn't been acting like a Willshaper (she's been forced by the war to avoid exploring), and I'm still pretty confident that the cometspren should be the Skybreaker's spren. Spren are a mixture of their Surges, and comets make for an excellent combination of Gravity + Division (since comets tend to burn up in the atmosphere/be on fire). Willshapers would be Cohesion + Transportation, which means we should expect them to be malleable in form (likely made of metal, since that's what's associated with Kalak) and teleport to move, or at least be able to teleport like Ivory.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Moogle

[maxal]

The comet-like spren theory still has some wriggle room to be consistent with what he claims about KR are all humans. They may be attracted to her for reasons unrevealed yet, not necessarily her path to KR. She is focused on one of the books that is tied to one of the orders though the connection might be something else and she may not end up as a KR. My point is some of what he says are restrictive and straightforward (eg KR all humans; parshendi not humans) but this is particular is still flexible. Mmm good lies..

 

But he does admit the comet-like spren is related to an order... Why would Eshonai have a comet-like spren related to an order if she is not set to become a KR? It is does not make sense. If it weren't for the comet-like spren, I wouldn't be so ready to declare Eshonai KR material based on her ethnicity.

 

What would help is if we knew which order is the focus of book 4..... Book 1 was the Windrunners, book 2, the Lightweavers, book 3, the Skybreakers, book 5, the Bondsmiths... So what is book 4? Willshapers or Dustbringers? All other orders are covered in books from the second arc. If it is the Willshapers, then it means Eshonai is one for sure. If it is the Dustbringers, then it may mean something else entirely.

 

 

How he responds to the direct question on Eshonai being a KR is indirect. He says it has never happened before (doesnt mean it will happen now). I perceived it as his way of saying no indirectly. By adding that he doesnt promise anything implies that he may consider. Either of which is not how he usually responds to a question that hits close to his story. Mmm lies..

 

I think he knows. He has decided, he just does not want to tell us. Giving us a RAFO would have mean telling us outright Eshonai is a Willshaper. The way he phrased it however, I am more inclined to believe it is a yes. It said it didn't happened before, not that it wouldn't happened before and he does say in another WoB that Parshendi can be squires, which looks good for Rlain.

 

 

But I have been to both sides of this debate and tbh I wonder if anything more revealed in the next book or so will change views. Could she become human then a KR? Or perhaps she bonds with comet-like spren and becomes something different, not a KR? I guess I might leave it as an unrevealed KR in addition to the dustbringers. If she could be I dont know how, might be cool. If she isnt, i wonder if Rysn or Navani can be one.

 

How can she become a human? They are two different species.... And why would a KR related spren attached itself to her if not to turn her into a KR? Rysn and Navani are interesting choices, but I do not see any of them becoming major, whereas I do see Eshonai taking more place....

 

 

Another thing to ponder about, there were many KR back then, now they plan to reform the orders. Are we seeing one from each or significantly more?

 

 

I think we are going to see one major character per order. There will most likely be many more knights, but they won't be POV characters. Our 10 will also most likely end up at the head of their respective order.

[maxal]

Not to weigh in on the debate (though I favor Eshonai becoming a KR): I'm still reasonably confident that the cometspren around Eshonai is her Shardblade.

 

 

It can't be her shardblade. The spren was in a spren-like form and moved away from her. Shardblade spren are dead. They can't take up another form then shardblade unless they are revived, which is extremely hard to do. Eshonai did not have a special connection to her blade ala Adolin, therefore it is highly unlikely the spren was from her shardblade. Besides, I would think she would have needed to speak a few oaths for the dead spren to be revived and to manage to take up its real form.

 

Most likely, it is a regular spren from a regular order.

[Moogle]

It can't be her shardblade. The spren was in a spren-like form and moved away from her. Shardblade spren are dead. They can't take up another form then shardblade unless they are revived, which is extremely hard to do. Eshonai did not have a special connection to her blade ala Adolin, therefore it is highly unlikely the spren was from her shardblade. Besides, I would think she would have needed to speak a few oaths for the dead spren to be revived and to manage to take up its real form.

 

Most likely, it is a regular spren from a regular order.

 

Shardblade spren are "dead", but all this means is that they're mindless and locked in constant agony. It doesn't necessarily mean they're incapable of action.

 

I think instinctively they could take up their form, if, say, they detected that they were bonded to a creature filled with Odium's Investiture. Look at Syl's reaction to Odium's name - she goes feral. Instinct could very easily cause the cometspren to mindlessly try to run away, and then find out it's leashed to Eshonai and instead mindlessly go in circles around her head.

 

The spren certainly doesn't seem to have any intelligence to it, though that supports it either being mindless or else a newly-bonded spren.

 

If it's a spren of an order, then you have to explain what Eshonai's done that would attract a spren and why a KR's spren would go to a Voidbringer (since it only appeared to Eshonai post-stormform).

 

I suppose you could argue that going into the storm to try out a new form counts as being adventurous or "resolute" (whatever that's supposed to mean - stubborn?) enough to attract a Willshaper spren (though Eshonai's motives were not adventurous in the slightest), but then you get into my previous speculation that says that a comet is a poor representation of Cohesion and Transportation.

 

Although, I could see it. Cohesion meaning the comet is spherical, Transportation meaning it moves (rather than the teleportation I'm thinking of), and comets are certainly somewhat metallic. I'm still not convinced, and feel that a comet works much better with the Skybreakers.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Moogle

[kadolin]

Was her blade summoned? Supposedly a summoned blade is the revived spren screaming in agony. Though I dont recall her blade being summoned at that moment.

I initially assumed it was an effect of the form she was in, the sprens being attracted to that form of theirs. The same sprens that could be bonded to say one of the KR orders.

Edit: Storms it.. I can't remember too clearly where she was and what form she was in.

Edited July 29, 2014 by kadolin

[maxal]

Shardblade spren are "dead", but all this means is that they're mindless and locked in constant agony. It doesn't necessarily mean they're incapable of action.

 

I think instinctively they could take up their form, if, say, they detected that they were bonded to a creature filled with Odium's Investiture. Look at Syl's reaction to Odium's name - she goes feral. Instinct could very easily cause the cometspren to mindlessly try to run away, and then find out it's leashed to Eshonai and instead mindlessly go in circles around her head.

 

She did not have her blade with her at the time. Never in that scene did she summoned her blade. I don't know where the blades go when they are dismissed, but I am pretty sure they can't just reappear in their spren form just because they feel Odium. If it were the case, then I suspect more shardblades would run from their owners...

 

I know they are not dead, but they are trapped. They can't leave their shard form and I believe for them to do so, they would need their bonder to 1) be compatible with them, 2) speak enough oaths to unlock them 3) give them back what they lost: conscience. The only way I see to accomplish third, which Brandon said was necessary to revive those "dead" spren, is to spend a lot of time with the blade, talking to it, giving it back some knowledge of the world, pretty much what Adolin is unconsciously doing.

 

 

I suppose you could argue that going into the storm to try out a new form counts as being adventurous or "resolute" (whatever that's supposed to mean - stubborn?) enough to attract a Willshaper spren (though Eshonai's motives were not adventurous in the slightest), but then you get into my previous speculation that says that a comet is a poor representation of Cohesion and Transportation.

 

I believe she attracted the spren before that, when she was the Explorer. Sprens can turn around proto-radiant for years before making themselves known. It could also be Eshonai was starting to bond with hers when she took the Stormform. She is quite adventurous, for a Parshendi, and is considered an oddity among her peers.

 

 

Was her blade summoned? Supposedly a summoned blade is the revived spren screaming in agony. Though I dont recall her blade being summoned at that moment.

 

No she did not have her blade during that scene. We went and re-read it in another thread. The voice she hears screaming was most likely her own self trapped within the Stormform.

[Moogle]

I don't know where the blades go when they are dismissed, but I am pretty sure they can't just reappear in their spren form just because they feel Odium. If it were the case, then I suspect more shardblades would run from their owners...

 

Okay, here's a theory: they don't "go" anywhere, and just float around their owners, invisible to everyone. Syl is only visible to Kaladin because he's got some extra Investiture. Everyone with a Shardblade, then, has a mindless spren leashed to them that they and others can't see. Eshonai, at the same time that she got extra Odium Investiture, suddenly gained the ability to see her spren and hear its screaming.

 

I mean, where else would they go? Syl is a regular spren when she's not a Shardblade, and I don't see why dead spren would suddenly shift to a different Realm.

 

I'm not convinced of this theory, but it would explain the facts nicely.

 

As to more Shardblades trying to run from their owners, none of their owners have a significant amount of Odium's Investiture in them like Eshonai does. That's what would cause the mindless fear, I think. Honorspren and redodiumstormspren are probably both on an equal power level, and honorspren are Splinters. That's a pretty significant amount of mojo.

 

Also, for a "dead" spren, when Kal touched a Shardblade and made it start screaming, it certainly seemed alive enough to communicate. Odd, that. Kinda seems like the Hoed of Elantris.

 

I know they are not dead, but they are trapped. They can't leave their shard form and I believe for them to do so, they would need their bonder to 1) be compatible with them, 2) speak enough oaths to unlock them 3) give them back what they lost: conscience. The only way I see to accomplish third, which Brandon said was necessary to revive those "dead" spren, is to spend a lot of time with the blade, talking to it, giving it back some knowledge of the world, pretty much what Adolin is unconsciously doing.

 

If they can't leave their Shardblade form, where do they go, then? I'm not satisfied by the idea that they meld with their owner or go somewhere that's not the Physical. Obviously they're not always in the shape of swords, so they can change form that way. Maybe they copy the Honorblades - I have no clue where those go.

 

As to reviving a dead spren, I'm not sure. I feel like it's been foreshadowed that they will be revived, but apparently you need the original Knights. Can't offer much speculation on this.

 

I believe she attracted the spren before that, when she was the Explorer. Sprens can turn around proto-radiant for years before making themselves known. It could also be Eshonai was starting to bond with hers when she took the Stormform. She is quite adventurous, for a Parshendi, and is considered an oddity among her peers.

 

I agree, she's perfect for a Willshaper and could easily have attracted a spren before she took up leading the army. I just don't see why her spren would appear after she took on stormform. The timing is coincidental for her attracted spren to start showing itself, but the timing makes more sense if its her Shardblade and she just recently gained the ability to tune into its screaming.

 

What we need is a Renarin flashback where he tells us what it's like to hear your Shardblade constantly screaming at you.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Moogle

[kadolin]

Just reread that part and something else I read somewhere else about surgebinding/voidbinding got me thinking. Could there be an opposite honorspren for each voidspren?

It was the first time Eshonai has seen these comet-like sprens since she doesnt recognize it and she instinctively dislikes it. Could these comet-like honorsprens be attracted to her stormform (stormspren/voidspren).

Edited July 29, 2014 by kadolin