[Theory] It has been foreshadowed that Adolin will be a Radiant.

[Kyats Rani she/her]

Wow. Two days with no internet and I have fallen so far behind with the discussion that there's too much I'd have to quote to reference what I'm saying that I only have to hope that everyone will get what I refer to... If I manage to make my own meaning clear, that is.

 

I kind of always have seen gravitation (gravity?) to be Kaladin's (and generally Windrunners') main surge rather than adhesion if we are to choose the major/minor ones (but personally I imagine it rather as every Order having its own combination of the surges and not being better then the other one at using any of them - it's the combination that makes a certain Order special not the speciality in one of its surges).

 

I hope for Adolin to revive his Blade, but if he doesn't then I believe he would bond with a new spren only after letting go of the Blade. Spren do not like Shardblades (we saw it with Syl), so I doubt any would approach Adolin as long as he is a Shardbearer. Stormfather is a different matter entirely - he had to contact Dalinar to give him visions, whether he wanted it or not. Yes, he chose Dalinar for this but it could be that none of the non-Shardbearers wouldn't do in his opinion. And Renarin started bonding Glys before getting the Blade, so it would upset Glys but couldn't really drive him away at this point.

 

If Adolin doesn't become a Radiant or if he turns out to be a second Edgedancer (with Lift being the primary one) then I'm honestly afraid he won't make it futher than the 5th book. This is why I want him to be our Dustbringer so much - he would be safe (or at least safer). As it is - he gives off the impression of a dead meat... Anyway, I haven't read many of Brandon's works (just the SA) so I don't know if he has a tendency for killing main/most likeable characters (as a certain other author whose name I won't mention and who annoyed me far too many times ), but I hope he doesn't. I can see Dalinar dying a heroic death, it makes sense to me and I guess I wouldn't mind it happening, but if Kaladin or Adolin die, I will propably have a tantrum . Or cry the whole day

 

Ok, I feel like I rejoined the discussion again

[Guest]

Wow. Two days with no internet and I have fallen so far behind with the discussion that there's too much I'd have to quote to reference what I'm saying that I only have to hope that everyone will get what I refer to... If I manage to make my own meaning clear, that is.

 

Welcome back! I had wonder where you had gone... I guess we have real life stuff, sometimes I've got young kids, so I kinda tend to stay close to home and Saturday/Sunday morning cartoons (and nap time) do give me some free time.

 

 

I kind of always have seen gravitation (gravity?) to be Kaladin's (and generally Windrunners') main surge rather than adhesion if we are to choose the major/minor ones (but personally I imagine it rather as every Order having its own combination of the surges and not being better then the other one at using any of them - it's the combination that makes a certain Order special not the speciality in one of its surges).

 

I do not recall where I saw it, but I have always seen one surge listed before the other... I have been assuming it was the primary surge whereas the other one was secondary. I would think it is the surge each knight has to easiest time grasping, much like Shallan who has a stronger affinity with Lightweaving. Jasnah is also said to be quite poor with her "second" surge, transportation. Kaladin first starts to explore his powers through Adhesion. It takes him a longer time to get around Gravity (which is listed second for Windrunners).

 

I do agree however there is not much to chew on this particular aspect and I do not have strong arguments for this. It is more or less a vague impression I have on the working of the surges for each Radiant, which is why I am reluctant to think Adolin's specific talent would be link to the surge listed as second, especially since the two examples we have behaves differently.

 

Does not mean I am right though. This is not something I'll defend to death

 

 

I hope for Adolin to revive his Blade, but if he doesn't then I believe he would bond with a new spren only after letting go of the Blade. Spren do not like Shardblades (we saw it with Syl), so I doubt any would approach Adolin as long as he is a Shardbearer. Stormfather is a different matter entirely - he had to contact Dalinar to give him visions, whether he wanted it or not. Yes, he chose Dalinar for this but it could be that none of the non-Shardbearers wouldn't do in his opinion. And Renarin started bonding Glys before getting the Blade, so it would upset Glys but couldn't really drive him away at this point.

 

I think it is Adolin's specific behavior towards his Blade that would drive the spens away. He is clearly more attached to it then the average shardbearer. He wields it with respect and admiration. He claims he feels it is "alive", somehow. He thanks it for appearing for him and understands he does not own it: he was just merely granted the privilege to use it for a short while. Based on these specific circumstances, I doubt another spren would come close to him as he is too bonded to his dead spren. Even if he does not manage to revive it, he is still not free to bond another. And even if he ditches the Blade, would it change how he perceived it? Would this attachment he feels towards it be truly broken? Didn't he say the Blade felt like an extension of the soul? My whole point is Adolin may physically lose his Blade, but will his heart be able to move on?

 

I also like the scene where he asks Salinor to break the bond of his Blade following the duel. He breaks the gem at the pommel claiming it is a long-lived tradition ensuring the previous owner does not reinstate the bond. He claimed this was just superstition as such thing never happened... I keep thinking the scene was foreshadowing for Adolin to do exactly that with his Blade. He'll lose it, but he'll claim it back. He'll reinstate the bond, but the gem is not the key, something else is.

 

 

If Adolin doesn't become a Radiant or if he turns out to be a second Edgedancer (with Lift being the primary one) then I'm honestly afraid he won't make it futher than the 5th book. This is why I want him to be our Dustbringer so much - he would be safe (or at least safer). As it is - he gives off the impression of a dead meat... Anyway, I haven't read many of Brandon's works (just the SA) so I don't know if he has a tendency for killing main/most likeable characters (as a certain other author whose name I won't mention and who annoyed me far too many times ), but I hope he doesn't. I can see Dalinar dying a heroic death, it makes sense to me and I guess I wouldn't mind it happening, but if Kaladin or Adolin die, I will propably have a tantrum . Or cry the whole day

 

Although, if he becomes a Edgedancer through reviving his Blade, then his death seems less sure... Would Brandon really kill Adolin so shortly after he was able to save his dead spren? And the poor spren? Wouldn't it be cruel to have the poor spren go to the pain of losing its knight so soon after being free from 4500 years of torture?

 

Alright... Brandon and killing characters... Yes. He has done it, but not like a certain other author. Brandon does not kill for the sake of killing. Brandon kills if the character's story arc demands it. In one book, he kills one character whose death has been heavily foreshadowed: his entire purpose was to give his life. In another, he brutally murders pretty much everyone.... but the main characters only bite the dust in the last page, which makes up for a grim ending, but the story ends there, so it is not as bad. Now, I have not read all of Brandon's books, yet, but in the ones I have read, he has not kill characters he spent much time developing. They may have been loved, but there level of personification was way below that of a Kaladin.

 

Adolin, Brandon has just started to flesh him out as a character and many readers have liked him in WoR. In WoK, Adolin was pretty much invisible: people did not care much for him. The general reaction towards his character was either indifference or dislike as he came out as a spoiled kid. I kinda like him in WoK because I though he was funny to read, but it is in WoR he grew on me.

 

Bottom line is, I would doubt Brandon would have spend time writing Adolin in WoR, giving him the duels, the romantic courtship of Shallan and the grim ending if he just planned to kill him. He did not need to flesh out Adolin if he just wanted him dead in the next book anyway. The story could have evolved the same way without Adolin's POV. The character would have shrink to major to strong secondary and his death would have bear the same impact, but now? Why give him POV? Why going in his head? Why showing us who he really is if it is just to have die the heroic death? It does not fit with the character development we have seem so far, which is why I have hopes he'll make it.

[Kyats Rani she/her]

Welcome back! I had wonder where you had gone... I guess we have real life stuff, sometimes I've got young kids, so I kinda tend to stay close to home and Saturday/Sunday morning cartoons (and nap time) do give me some free time.

Well, I was visiting my family and going to graveyards (it's tradition here in Poland - we don't have Halloween).

 

 

I do not recall where I saw it, but I have always seen one surge listed before the other... I have been assuming it was the primary surge whereas the other one was secondary. I would think it is the surge each knight has to easiest time grasping, much like Shallan who has a stronger affinity with Lightweaving. Jasnah is also said to be quite poor with her "second" surge, transportation. Kaladin first starts to explore his powers through Adhesion. It takes him a longer time to get around Gravity (which is listed second for Windrunners).

 

I do agree however there is not much to chew on this particular aspect and I do not have strong arguments for this. It is more or less a vague impression I have on the working of the surges for each Radiant, which is why I am reluctant to think Adolin's specific talent would be link to the surge listed as second, especially since the two examples we have behaves differently.

 

Does not mean I am right though. This is not something I'll defend to death

It may be this, but I thought that Kaladin started to use Reverse Lashing first (so that the arrows hit the bridge and not him). And only the Full Lashing is connected to Adhesion. I may be mistaken, but that's how I remember it.

As for Shallan - isn't the surge's name Illumination? Lightweavers is the name of the Order, so Lightweaving would be the abilities they have in general, not a particular surge. Especially since Hoid can Lightweave too and we know from WoB that his ability comes from Yolen, so it wouldn't be so much connected to Rosharian surges. But I might be wrong on this.  

 

 

 

 

I think it is Adolin's specific behavior towards his Blade that would drive the spens away. He is clearly more attached to it then the average shardbearer. He wields it with respect and admiration. He claims he feels it is "alive", somehow. He thanks it for appearing for him and understands he does not own it: he was just merely granted the privilege to use it for a short while. Based on these specific circumstances, I doubt another spren would come close to him as he is too bonded to his dead spren. Even if he does not manage to revive it, he is still not free to bond another. And even if he ditches the Blade, would it change how he perceived it? Would this attachment he feels towards it be truly broken? Didn't he say the Blade felt like an extension of the soul? My whole point is Adolin may physically lose his Blade, but will his heart be able to move on?

 

I also like the scene where he asks Salinor to break the bond of his Blade following the duel. He breaks the gem at the pommel claiming it is a long-lived tradition ensuring the previous owner does not reinstate the bond. He claimed this was just superstition as such thing never happened... I keep thinking the scene was foreshadowing for Adolin to do exactly that with his Blade. He'll lose it, but he'll claim it back. He'll reinstate the bond, but the gem is not the key, something else is.

 

  That is exactly what points to the theory of Adolin reviving his Blade   So that's possibly what he will do.

 

But if that's not the case then it would mean that Adolin's attachement to his Blade doesn't mean that much, as there is no real bond. So then after he physically lost it, another spren could easily come to him. I believe that if Adolin's behaviour towards his Blade and his attachement to it is really meaningful then he will revive it. If he won't - then that relation was never meant to be of importance, just another way of showing Adolin's character to the reader (that he's a good soldier as he's very respectful towards his weapon, that he considers Shardblades as something more then just weapons of mass destruction etc.).

 

 

...

As for the rest... It's good to hear that Brandon doesn't kill off characters without good reasons. That gives me hope

 

I only fear the story about Fleet. I seriously hope that it was meant only to show Kaladin that he should never ever give up and not to hint at his death in the near future... Please, please, please let it be so!

 

About Adolin... He is a very well developed character. It would be a waste to kill him off now, as he seems to have a very interesting future (consequences of murdering a highprince, being the only non-Radiant in the family, etc). It gives hope that he will survive at least until the book five, as by then his character arc should be finished. It's only whether or not he will survive through the time skip and the back five that worries me. Because if he died in book five then his character arc would be complete (as he won't be too important in the back five). I hope he will prevail if only because he's the only one that can lead the Kholin family (Dalinar will die sooner or later, even if only from old age, and Renarin is not cut out to be a highprince). I guess Adolin being out main Dustbringer would give him some more protection (as in my head we will have only 10 main Radiants in the first five books and in the back five we will se those 10 - or 9 since there is a limited number of Bondsmiths - training the new Radiants of their Orders).

[Guest]

Well, I was visiting my family and going to graveyards (it's tradition here in Poland - we don't have Halloween).

 

Creepy.

 

 

It may be this, but I thought that Kaladin started to use Reverse Lashing first (so that the arrows hit the bridge and not him). And only the Full Lashing is connected to Adhesion. I may be mistaken, but that's how I remember it.

As for Shallan - isn't the surge's name Illumination? Lightweavers is the name of the Order, so Lightweaving would be the abilities they have in general, not a particular surge. Especially since Hoid can Lightweave too and we know from WoB that his ability comes from Yolen, so it wouldn't be so much connected to Rosharian surges. But I might be wrong on this.

 

I was referring to the time when he started training in the chasm. The first conscious use of surgebinding he was able to do was to stick rocks to the wall, which comes from Adhesion, but you may be right about the arrow attracting shield. I would need to go re-read the definition of lashings as I do not recall properly which one is which

 

Yeah, Illumination. I made a mistake in my earlier post.

 

 

That is exactly what points to the theory of Adolin reviving his Blade   So that's possibly what he will do.

 

But if that's not the case then it would mean that Adolin's attachement to his Blade doesn't mean that much, as there is no real bond. So then after he physically lost it, another spren could easily come to him. I believe that if Adolin's behaviour towards his Blade and his attachement to it is really meaningful then he will revive it. If he won't - then that relation was never meant to be of importance, just another way of showing Adolin's character to the reader (that he's a good soldier as he's very respectful towards his weapon, that he considers Shardblades as something more then just weapons of mass destruction etc.).

 

I think he can have a deep bond with it while not managing to revive it. It is said to be extremely hard, so even no matter how strongly attached he is to it, he may not find the right words. I am thinking he would need to say, at the very least, the first and the second oaths to make it work, not an easy thing to do without guidance.

 

Bottom line is I believe his attachment to his Blade could definitely steer living sprens away from him, but it does not mean he'll revive it. I dunno if it is clear...

 

 

I only fear the story about Fleet. I seriously hope that it was meant only to show Kaladin that he should never ever give up and not to hint at his death in the near future... Please, please, please let it be so!

 

About Adolin... He is a very well developed character. It would be a waste to kill him off now, as he seems to have a very interesting future (consequences of murdering a highprince, being the only non-Radiant in the family, etc). It gives hope that he will survive at least until the book five, as by then his character arc should be finished. It's only whether or not he will survive through the time skip and the back five that worries me. Because if he died in book five then his character arc would be complete (as he won't be too important in the back five). I hope he will prevail if only because he's the only one that can lead the Kholin family (Dalinar will die sooner or later, even if only from old age, and Renarin is not cut out to be a highprince). I guess Adolin being out main Dustbringer would give him some more protection (as in my head we will have only 10 main Radiants in the first five books and in the back five we will se those 10 - or 9 since there is a limited number of Bondsmiths - training the new Radiants of their Orders).

 

I have never considered Fleet's story to be a foreshadow of Kaladin's death. Hoid tells people what he believe they need to hear. Kaladin needed to hear about not giving up, so here it is.

 

We don't know how important any characters will be in the second arc. Take Lift for example. She is supposed to become a main character, but then again, Eshonai is supposed to currently be a main character. She has had only a few POV. Szeth is a major character and he's had much less POV then Adolin. It's hard to gauge. There is no telling what kind of role a living Adolin would play in the second half. His story arc may not be over by the end of the first series as well.  We just don't know, so I would not speculate about his impending death simply because he does not have a flashback scheduled.

 

Dalinar is the only Bondsmith and most of us think he'll die at the end of book 4 or 5.

[Kyats Rani she/her]

Creepy.

Actually it's about paying respect to the dead, so it's not that creepy... :ph34r:

 

 

I was referring to the time when he started training in the chasm. The first conscious use of surgebinding he was able to do was to stick rocks to the wall, which comes from Adhesion, but you may be right about the arrow attracting shield. I would need to go re-read the definition of lashings as I do not recall properly which one is which

 

Yeah, Illumination. I made a mistake in my earlier post.

Yeah, consciously he was using adhesion first. But the thing with arrows happened earlier - I'm not sure if the very first time when he ran the bridge (he propably didn't have any spheres on him, but he did somehow miraclously survive), but definitely that time when he helped Hobber and Leyten (the first run when he was the crew leader). Even though he was completely unaware of this. So maybe it is so that one of the surges is easier to learn for the beginner Radiants (adhesion for Kaladin, illumination for Shallan), but I don't think it necessarily means that it's their "main" surge.

As for the lashings, those were more or less:

Basic Lashing - when you change the direction of the gravity (flying, walking on the walls etc)

Full Lashing - sticking things to one another

Reverse Lashing - pulling things to one point (eg to a shield, bridge, door frame)

 

 

I think he can have a deep bond with it while not managing to revive it. It is said to be extremely hard, so even no matter how strongly attached he is to it, he may not find the right words. I am thinking he would need to say, at the very least, the first and the second oaths to make it work, not an easy thing to do without guidance.

 

Bottom line is I believe his attachment to his Blade could definitely steer living sprens away from him, but it does not mean he'll revive it. I dunno if it is clear...

 

 

Yes, you are right. I guess I didn't make myself clear on what I meant. It is possible that his attachment to his Blade will drive away living spren without reviving the Blade itself. But I think that it wouldn't make much sense story-wise: why build so deep relationship between Adolin and his Blade if this motif is not going to be used as a plot-point?

And I believe in Adolin - he can do it

 

 

I have never considered Fleet's story to be a foreshadow of Kaladin's death. Hoid tells people what he believe they need to hear. Kaladin needed to hear about not giving up, so here it is.

 

We don't know how important any characters will be in the second arc. Take Lift for example. She is supposed to become a main character, but then again, Eshonai is supposed to currently be a main character. She has had only a few POV. Szeth is a major character and he's had much less POV then Adolin. It's hard to gauge. There is no telling what kind of role a living Adolin would play in the second half. His story arc may not be over by the end of the first series as well.  We just don't know, so I would not speculate about his impending death simply because he does not have a flashback scheduled.

 

Dalinar is the only Bondsmith and most of us think he'll die at the end of book 4 or 5.

I've seen it said somewhere that Fleet and Kaladin are somewhat parallel... But I do hope it won't be the case (though the possibility still exists, unfortunetely). But if Kaladin references this story once again in a life-threatening situation I'm going to get afraid

 

Yes, we don't know how important they will be, but I somehow have it in my head that the current major characters will become less important with the new ones taking their place in the spotlight... But you are right, we cannot say anything for sure. And by Adolin's storyline ending in the book five - I meant the current storyline. As in the whole thing about the murder and his problems within the family (as they are almost sure to occur). I also think that Dalinar will die at the end of book five, so then Adolin will become a new highprince, which will be to an extent the end of his current character arc. The story of Highprince Adolin may or may not be imporatnt in the back five, but I doubt it will be given primary focus.

[Guest]

Actually it's about paying respect to the dead, so it's not that creepy... :ph34r:

 

Compared to wearing colorful costumes, carving pumpkins and harvesting loads of candies, it is

 

 

Yeah, consciously he was using adhesion first. But the thing with arrows happened earlier - I'm not sure if the very first time when he ran the bridge (he propably didn't have any spheres on him, but he did somehow miraclously survive), but definitely that time when he helped Hobber and Leyten (the first run when he was the crew leader). Even though he was completely unaware of this. So maybe it is so that one of the surges is easier to learn for the beginner Radiants (adhesion for Kaladin, illumination for Shallan), but I don't think it necessarily means that it's their "main" surge.

As for the lashings, those were more or less:

Basic Lashing - when you change the direction of the gravity (flying, walking on the walls etc)

Full Lashing - sticking things to one another

Reverse Lashing - pulling things to one point (eg to a shield, bridge, door frame)

 

I always was under the impression our Radiants had an easier time with one of their surges. It could be I was mistaken. I guess we will need some additional examples.

 

 

Yes, you are right. I guess I didn't make myself clear on what I meant. It is possible that his attachment to his Blade will drive away living spren without reviving the Blade itself. But I think that it wouldn't make much sense story-wise: why build so deep relationship between Adolin and his Blade if this motif is not going to be used as a plot-point?

And I believe in Adolin - he can do it

 

Why indeed, I don't know. Perhaps to keep him as a non-Radiant? It could be Brandon intended him to remain powerless.... I hope that is not the case, because if so, then Adolin will most likely end up killing himself fighting creatures he has not the power to defeat.

 

I also wonder, how would he do it in the end.... I am quite convinced he needs to say at least the first oaths and probably the second one as well. Now, what would prompt Adolin to start screaming out oaths? Would he consciously revive his Blade or do it without really knowing what he really is doing? I am thinking more of the second as everyone thinks it impossible, so most likely he'll think as well. Learning his Blade is a dead spren that hates him would be a hard blow, but he may cling to his sword for reasons he cannot name. And how would he figure the second oath without a spren to help him discover it? Hard one.

 

 

I've seen it said somewhere that Fleet and Kaladin are somewhat parallel... But I do hope it won't be the case (though the possibility still exists, unfortunetely). But if Kaladin references this story once again in a life-threatening situation I'm going to get afraid

 

Yes, we don't know how important they will be, but I somehow have it in my head that the current major characters will become less important with the new ones taking their place in the spotlight... But you are right, we cannot say anything for sure. And by Adolin's storyline ending in the book five - I meant the current storyline. As in the whole thing about the murder and his problems within the family (as they are almost sure to occur). I also think that Dalinar will die at the end of book five, so then Adolin will become a new highprince, which will be to an extent the end of his current character arc. The story of Highprince Adolin may or may not be imporatnt in the back five, but I doubt it will be given primary focus.

 

As I said, I have never seen the said parallel, so I tend to dismiss it. I doubt Brandon would kill Kaladin. He is the main character of the entire series. He has had the most character development and his death would be anti-climatic to the best.

 

It has been theorized it would be the case, but Brandon has not written the story just yet. I just cannot imagine SA without Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar and Adolin. Jasnah and Renarin are good characters, but not as sympathetic as the others. Lift has potential, but the Heralds? I like them as supporting characters... I dunno. I guess we will have to wait and see.

[Kyats Rani she/her]

Compared to wearing colorful costumes, carving pumpkins and harvesting loads of candies, it is

Well, definitely it's less fun...

 

 

I always was under the impression our Radiants had an easier time with one of their surges. It could be I was mistaken. I guess we will need some additional examples.

I agree but I understant it more as it's easier for them to learn how to use one surge but not necessarily that easier surge becomes their most important or most often used one. As in it's harder to practise one surge, but when one actually masters it, it becomes as natural (or possibly even more) as the first one. I'm basing this mostly on Kaladin, who had troubles mastering gravity (basic lashing to be exact) later can control it with ease.

 

On the other hand it may be that it's harder to master a surge that's related to Shadesmar more closely. I mean, Shallan can use illumination but has troubles with soulcasting which requires her to go to the Shadesmar. Same with Kaladin - before he managed to use gravitation he glimpsed the Shadesmar, but didn't need this to learn how to use adhesion.

 

 

Why indeed, I don't know. Perhaps to keep him as a non-Radiant? It could be Brandon intended him to remain powerless.... I hope that is not the case, because if so, then Adolin will most likely end up killing himself fighting creatures he has not the power to defeat.

 

I also wonder, how would he do it in the end.... I am quite convinced he needs to say at least the first oaths and probably the second one as well. Now, what would prompt Adolin to start screaming out oaths? Would he consciously revive his Blade or do it without really knowing what he really is doing? I am thinking more of the second as everyone thinks it impossible, so most likely he'll think as well. Learning his Blade is a dead spren that hates him would be a hard blow, but he may cling to his sword for reasons he cannot name. And how would he figure the second oath without a spren to help him discover it? Hard one.

To keep him as a non-Radiant it would be enough to pretend he's not capable of attracting spren of any Order as he doesn't have the right potetntial, so why hint at his relationship with his Blade? But I agree, Adolin won't resign from fighting in the first line so without some power boost he's unfortunetely a dead meat.

 

I'm under an impression that the first ideal doesn't have to be stated (at least not in a way the others must). My reason: Kaladin spoke/thought the first ideal many times and it had no effect whatsoever until he truly embarced it, believed in it. Besides with the first ideal there was no "special effects" as when he spoke the second or third (burst of stormlight etc.). So maybe there is no need for Adolin to actually speak the words of the first ideal but it will be enough if he started to simply live by them (which he can do unconsciously, without knowing that he's taking up the first ideal of the knights). He could then speak the second ideal on a battlefield still unaware of what he's in fact doing (as WoB has it that the exact words are unimportant, only the idea matters), which would give him a boost of strength or maybe helped him to surgebind a bit (eg. sliding away from enemy's weapon with the ease of abrasion) but he wouldn't actually recognise it as surgebinding, thinking instead that it was luck or something. Then he would realise that his spheres seem to be losing their stormlight somehow quicker and that he's more agile, faster and so on but don't really connect the dots After some time he speaks the third ideal because he felt he should say those words and ta-dah! his Blade comes back to him as a spren Generally that's kind of how I see this - Adolin "speaks" at least two ideals completely unaware that he's on his path to Radianthood.

 

 

As I said, I have never seen the said parallel, so I tend to dismiss it. I doubt Brandon would kill Kaladin. He is the main character of the entire series. He has had the most character development and his death would be anti-climatic to the best.

 

It has been theorized it would be the case, but Brandon has not written the story just yet. I just cannot imagine SA without Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar and Adolin. Jasnah and Renarin are good characters, but not as sympathetic as the others. Lift has potential, but the Heralds? I like them as supporting characters... I dunno. I guess we will have to wait and see.

 

I wouldn't really say that Kaladin is the main character as I'm not sure if that's the case or it's just the impression I have because he had the first book for himself But still, he is the only one who had PoV chapters in every single part of both books (not counting the interludes). As for the character development - I agree, he had and it has still long way to go (I expect him to stay alive at least long enough to finally heal his slave brands... and possibly many years after that too ).

 

As for Dalinar death - of course we don't know yet, but to me it seems as very possible... We just have to wait to find out I also cannot imagine SA without Kaladin, Adolin and Shallan (even if I don't really like her, she plays too vital part in the story to simply be gone... I'm not the kind of person to wish death for characters I dislike), but in my head Dalinar is meant to die an epic, heroic death (not that I would mind much if he survived). Jasnah and Renarin aren't as sympathetic because we have seen too little of them, if they had more spotlight and in Renarin's case at least some PoV's we would become more attached to them. Lift is an interesting character so I want to read some more of her, but I don't care too much about the Heralds, though their flashbacks would give us information about the past Desolations and other interesting things so I guess I can tolerate their books. As long as we won't be presented with another Lightweaver book, we already had one and it's not that interesting order to get two books I hope that in the back five we will still see our favourite characters from the first part in the stories and maybe with some PoV's in the interludes or prologues

[Aleksiel]

I don't think that if you have a shard blade other spren won't get close to you. Renarin is a perfect example of this. He bonds a blade then gets his spren (glys?) he couldn't have done it the other way around due to the spren thinking that they're abominations

 

Why do you say he gets his Blade before Glys? Syl was bonding with Kaladin way before he discovered he could use stormlight, so it's unfounded to assume Ren formed a bond with his spren shortly before healing his sight. Glys probably didn't have the mind to explain to Renarin what was going on and why he shouldn't get the Blade. Ren wasn't keen on bonding it if you recall the scene when Adolin gives him Blade, so the'd likely already felt something wasn't quite right without being able to explain why. The screaming starts, as I believe maxal mentioned, after the one says the first Oath if we're to judge based on Dalinar's experience.

 

Although, if he becomes a Edgedancer through reviving his Blade, then his death seems less sure... Would Brandon really kill Adolin so shortly after he was able to save his dead spren? And the poor spren? Wouldn't it be cruel to have the poor spren go to the pain of losing its knight so soon after being free from 4500 years of torture?

 

Yeah, I agree reviving his Blade makes him more likely to survive. Overall, I don't think we'll see many major character deaths in SA.

 

Anyway, I haven't read many of Brandon's works (just the SA) so I don't know if he has a tendency for killing main/most likeable characters (as a certain other author whose name I won't mention and who annoyed me far too many times ), but I hope he doesn't. 

 

I'd argue George R R Martin had good reasons to kill most characters. What Ned Stark did was very stupid. Just because the honorable ones live through other authors books doesn't mean it's unfounded for him to be betrayed. Joffrey had it coming, the Red Wedding was the result of Rob's stupidity to get himself in the hands of an envious, greedy, disloyal and easily offended scum. Granted, I read those books long ago, so I can't argue with precise argumentation. However, I do remember finding deaths justified and not simply for shock-value, although they were shocking nonetheless. Of course, you're entitled to your own opinion. Also, no other author kills characters like Martin, so don't worry.

 

 

 In another, he brutally murders pretty much everyone.... but the main characters only bite the dust in the last page, which makes up for a grim ending, but the story ends there, so it is not as bad. 

Which book is that?

Vin and Elend die at the end, but I don't recall Brandon brutally murdering everyone else, so it's not Mistborn.

[Guest]

Well, definitely it's less fun...

 

Candy Crush

 

 

To keep him as a non-Radiant it would be enough to pretend he's not capable of attracting spren of any Order as he doesn't have the right potetntial, so why hint at his relationship with his Blade? But I agree, Adolin won't resign from fighting in the first line so without some power boost he's unfortunetely a dead meat.

 

I don't know. I don't know why Brandon hints at this particular relationship with his Blade and then tells us how hard it would be to revive one. I have no idea where he is going with Adolin, which is probably why I like to talk about him so much. So many uncertainties.

 

And yeah, I can see Adolin going on against some beast straight from damnation only to get miserably crushed He didn't last very long against Szeth, so I figured he'll have a hard time just surviving against larger foes.

 

 

I'm under an impression that the first ideal doesn't have to be stated (at least not in a way the others must). My reason: Kaladin spoke/thought the first ideal many times and it had no effect whatsoever until he truly embarced it, believed in it. Besides with the first ideal there was no "special effects" as when he spoke the second or third (burst of stormlight etc.). So maybe there is no need for Adolin to actually speak the words of the first ideal but it will be enough if he started to simply live by them (which he can do unconsciously, without knowing that he's taking up the first ideal of the knights). He could then speak the second ideal on a battlefield still unaware of what he's in fact doing (as WoB has it that the exact words are unimportant, only the idea matters), which would give him a boost of strength or maybe helped him to surgebind a bit (eg. sliding away from enemy's weapon with the ease of abrasion) but he wouldn't actually recognise it as surgebinding, thinking instead that it was luck or something. Then he would realise that his spheres seem to be losing their stormlight somehow quicker and that he's more agile, faster and so on but don't really connect the dots After some time he speaks the third ideal because he felt he should say those words and ta-dah! his Blade comes back to him as a spren Generally that's kind of how I see this - Adolin "speaks" at least two ideals completely unaware that he's on his path to Radianthood.

 

I think you still need to say the first ideal... You need to understand it, to live by it, but your also need to speak it aloud to enforce it. Since by then, Adolin would most likely know the first ideal, saying it would thus become a statement. I love the idea he'll revive his Blade without really realizing what he is doing, but the first ideal is bothersome. He's got to speak it as some point.... 

 

I personally love the idea his Blade will start to behave abnormally. For one, he'll manage to re-kink his bond without having to go through the carrying it on him for a week general method (as I keep thinking he'll lose the Blade in the next book).  After that, the Blade would start, on occasions, to appear even if less then 10 heartbeats elapse. He'll get more and more hints/intuition, but stormlight, I think the spren would need to really come back to give him access to that. He'll hear thoughts, like wind browsing through his mind, but without really being able to identify them to some outside being. His progression will be very, very, very slow.

 

 

I wouldn't really say that Kaladin is the main character as I'm not sure if that's the case or it's just the impression I have because he had the first book for himself But still, he is the only one who had PoV chapters in every single part of both books (not counting the interludes). As for the character development - I agree, he had and it has still long way to go (I expect him to stay alive at least long enough to finally heal his slave brands... and possibly many years after that too ).

 

Well, Kaladin has the most chapters and I do not see that changing over the next book... He's also had the most character development. He does sound quite "main".

 

 

As for Dalinar death - of course we don't know yet, but to me it seems as very possible... We just have to wait to find out I also cannot imagine SA without Kaladin, Adolin and Shallan (even if I don't really like her, she plays too vital part in the story to simply be gone... I'm not the kind of person to wish death for characters I dislike), but in my head Dalinar is meant to die an epic, heroic death (not that I would mind much if he survived). Jasnah and Renarin aren't as sympathetic because we have seen too little of them, if they had more spotlight and in Renarin's case at least some PoV's we would become more attached to them. Lift is an interesting character so I want to read some more of her, but I don't care too much about the Heralds, though their flashbacks would give us information about the past Desolations and other interesting things so I guess I can tolerate their books. As long as we won't be presented with another Lightweaver book, we already had one and it's not that interesting order to get two books I hope that in the back five we will still see our favourite characters from the first part in the stories and maybe with some PoV's in the interludes or prologues

 

I am not sure the remaining characters appeal to me sufficiently to have me attach myself to them the way I have attached myself to the current ones. I guess I'll have to wait and see.

 

 

 

Why do you say he gets his Blade before Glys? Syl was bonding with Kaladin way before he discovered he could use stormlight, so it's unfounded to assume Ren formed a bond with his spren shortly before healing his sight. Glys probably didn't have the mind to explain to Renarin what was going on and why he shouldn't get the Blade. Ren wasn't keen on bonding it if you recall the scene when Adolin gives him Blade, so the'd likely already felt something wasn't quite right without being able to explain why. The screaming starts, as I believe maxal mentioned, after the one says the first Oath if we're to judge based on Dalinar's experience.

 

 

Evidence does point towards Renarin being establishing a bond for quite some time. Based on Dalinar's experience and on Renarin's behavior, we can safely assume he said the first oath sometimes after bonding the Blade. Moreover, the healing of his eyesight (a non-life threatening disability, which suggest a conscious use of Stormlight) could even suggest he has gone as far as to say the second oath. He does get powerful visions and I doubt just the first oath would be sufficient for this. Kaladin needed to say the second oath to get significant powers. All in all, bonding the Blade did not send Glys away as Renarin was not committed to this Blade. Glys, being a new spren, was probably not able to explain to Renarin why the Blade is bad as Syl, a more advanced spren, is not able to do so until the end of WoR.

 

I did write a quite lengthy post on Renarin's potential experience with Glys as some people seemed to think he's had no interaction with Glys until the end of WoR, which is highly improbable based on the clues we have.

 

 

 

I'd argue George R R Martin had good reasons to kill most characters. What Ned Stark did was very stupid. Just because the honorable ones live through other authors books doesn't mean it's unfounded for him to be betrayed. Joffrey had it coming, the Red Wedding was the result of Rob's stupidity to get himself in the hands of an envious, greedy, disloyal and easily offended scum. Granted, I read those books long ago, so I can't argue with precise argumentation. However, I do remember finding deaths justified and not simply for shock-value, although they were shocking nonetheless. Of course, you're entitled to your own opinion. Also, no other author kills characters like Martin, so don't worry.

 

 

Which book is that?

Vin and Elend die at the end, but I don't recall Brandon brutally murdering everyone else, so it's not Mistborn.

 

 

Whereas I agree Martin has not kill his main characters, yet, his death's toll is impressive. I agree he's had reasons for every dead, but it does make a grim telling. I personally love Martin, but his characters have not come to life, for me at least, the way SA characters have. I can therefore stomach more dead in this series then in SA.

 

The dead that is foreshadowed is Lightsong in Warbreaker. We are being told from early on his only purpose as a Returned is to give his life, again, to heal someone. I kind of expected him to do just that.

 

The other book I was talking about was, of course, Mistborn. Word brutally was indeed a little strong but the fact remains he killed everyone at the end. Alright. It worked only because the story was over. It rubbed us of a happy ending, but it did not force us to keep on reading a story where our favorite characters are dead.

[KevinTheHerdazian he/him]

Well if renarin did have glys before having the shard blade then wouldn't he have healed his eye sight as soon as he had consumed stormlight. And Dalinar had his blade during some of his visions. Also he had one before he bonded with the storm father. I don't believe that having a shard blade dissuades a spren from bonding with you as it has nothing to do with your character. Like if someone is doing wonderful things like protecting a homeless man from gangsters or healing people for free then he might attract a spren, but if he has a shard blade then all of his goodness means nothing? I strongly disagree. If a spren did that then I don't think that that would be honorable. Just cause someone has a shard blade he is automatically a non-radiant, no matter how good of a person he is?

[Guest]

Alright.

 

Everyone knows how much I HATE uncalled for downvotes, so what's the deal with the two I see now? Since, someone accidentally downvoting me twice seems unlikely, I would really like on which ground this person though my posts deserved a downvote. If you have the never to downvote perfectly fine posts that are neither offensive, abrasive, impolite or outright rude, then you must have the nerve to come forward and explain yourself.

 

You may use private.

 

Thank you.

[Kyats Rani she/her]

I don't know. I don't know why Brandon hints at this particular relationship with his Blade and then tells us how hard it would be to revive one. I have no idea where he is going with Adolin, which is probably why I like to talk about him so much. So many uncertainties.

 

And yeah, I can see Adolin going on against some beast straight from damnation only to get miserably crushed He didn't last very long against Szeth, so I figured he'll have a hard time just surviving against larger foes.

 

 

 

I think you still need to say the first ideal... You need to understand it, to live by it, but your also need to speak it aloud to enforce it. Since by then, Adolin would most likely know the first ideal, saying it would thus become a statement. I love the idea he'll revive his Blade without really realizing what he is doing, but the first ideal is bothersome. He's got to speak it as some point.... 

 

I personally love the idea his Blade will start to behave abnormally. For one, he'll manage to re-kink his bond without having to go through the carrying it on him for a week general method (as I keep thinking he'll lose the Blade in the next book).  After that, the Blade would start, on occasions, to appear even if less then 10 heartbeats elapse. He'll get more and more hints/intuition, but stormlight, I think the spren would need to really come back to give him access to that. He'll hear thoughts, like wind browsing through his mind, but without really being able to identify them to some outside being. His progression will be very, very, very slow.

Well, one of my other theories is that if Adolin doesn't become a Radiant he somehow gets Nightblood in his hands and therefore manages to be very useful in fight and able to defend himslef :ph34r: That would work if after the truth on the murder went out Adolin was exiled and run into Szeth. But Adolin does seem as a good potential wielder for Nightblood in my opinion (then again, I don't know too much about Nightblood yet...)

 

Maybe hinting at how hard it is to revive the blade is meant to show as how amazing it is that Adolin manages to do it?

 

As for the first ideal... I think it must be spoken, but it starts to "work" when somebody truly lives by it. So Adolin may say the words in a conversation with Kaladin for example (like, Kal says something related to the meaning of this ideal and Adolin says something along the lines "oh, yeah... life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination, and so on") without putting any meaning behind them and only later start to live by the ideal. I mean, Kaladin repeated the ideal after Teft but didn't truly believe in it, then in the chasms he understood the meaning and then it started to work even if he didn't say the words again (at least that's how I remember it).

 

I like the idea of Blade acting strange... Adolin would think that he keeps miscounting the heartbeats

 

 

Well, Kaladin has the most chapters and I do not see that changing over the next book... He's also had the most character development. He does sound quite "main".

 

 

 

I am not sure the remaining characters appeal to me sufficiently to have me attach myself to them the way I have attached myself to the current ones. I guess I'll have to wait and see.

True, he does seem the "main" character. And that's good because I like him If something happens to Dalinar I actually see Kal leading the Radiants - now he's not ready, but after some time (few years...) I guess he will get there.

 

Actually, I already like Jasnah more than Shallan   And I see Renarin as having potential to be interesting if he gets more spotlight. I guess I can be attached to them all But as for the current ones, I don't really care for Eshonai, she's not interesting to me. Szeth isn't too much as well. So isn't Navani. But Kaladin, Adolin, Shallan and Dalinar (in this order) are

 

 

Whereas I agree Martin has not kill his main characters, yet, his death's toll is impressive. I agree he's had reasons for every dead, but it does make a grim telling. I personally love Martin, but his characters have not come to life, for me at least, the way SA characters have. I can therefore stomach more dead in this series then in SA.

Actually, Martin did kill seemingly the main (or one of the most "main" characters) at the end of Dance with Dragons... And it annoyed me, as that was a character I actually liked quite much And for that one death I don't see a proper reason as for the others... But that may be my opinion.

But I agree, his characters were not so well developed as the ones in SA. Maybe because there are so many of them... With him there is usually "ok, this one died but I have 10 or so other characters that I liked on the same level so it's not so bad", while in SA it would be more of a "nooo!! why??!! "

 

 

Well if renarin did have glys before having the shard blade then wouldn't he have healed his eye sight as soon as he had consumed stormlight. And Dalinar had his blade during some of his visions. Also he had one before he bonded with the storm father. I don't believe that having a shard blade dissuades a spren from bonding with you as it has nothing to do with your character. Like if someone is doing wonderful things like protecting a homeless man from gangsters or healing people for free then he might attract a spren, but if he has a shard blade then all of his goodness means nothing? I strongly disagree. If a spren did that then I don't think that that would be honorable. Just cause someone has a shard blade he is automatically a non-radiant, no matter how good of a person he is?

Well, the way I understood the book, spren do seem to be driven away form people holding dead Shardblades. Syl did consider those people "bad" (she mentioned how Dalinar became a better person when he gave up Oathbringer), so I guess so would other spren. It's not that the person's goodness means nothing but the spren may be too scared to approach. At the point when they didn't yet form the bond they aren't too intelligent in the physical realm, so they act on instinct. And their instinct says "Shardblades are evil" so they stay away from them and therefore may not even see the goodness in their potantial partner. Stormfather is a whole different matter, as despite the lack of Nahel bond he is perfectly conscious and aware. He chose Dalinar for the visions because it seemed the best option he had and he wasn't too happy to bond him in the end.

And I believe it was said that Renarin stopped wearing glasses before he was given a Blade... And to heal his eyesight I think he would have to use stormlight consciously, what indicates a rather developed bond (at least the first oath - that's when Kaladin started to consciously breathe in stormlight).

[Aleksiel]

Whereas I agree Martin has not kill his main characters, yet, his death's toll is impressive. I agree he's had reasons for every dead, but it does make a grim telling. I personally love Martin, but his characters have not come to life, for me at least, the way SA characters have. I can therefore stomach more dead in this series then in SA.

 

Yeah, I agree. I feel so much more for SA characters. But on the other hand I just don't dare get attached to any of Martin's characters 

 

Well if renarin did have glys before having the shard blade then wouldn't he have healed his eye sight as soon as he had consumed stormlight. And Dalinar had his blade during some of his visions. Also he had one before he bonded with the storm father. I don't believe that having a shard blade dissuades a spren from bonding with you as it has nothing to do with your character. Like if someone is doing wonderful things like protecting a homeless man from gangsters or healing people for free then he might attract a spren, but if he has a shard blade then all of his goodness means nothing? I strongly disagree. If a spren did that then I don't think that that would be honorable. Just cause someone has a shard blade he is automatically a non-radiant, no matter how good of a person he is?

 

Dalinar and the Stormfather are a compltely different category. The Stormfather had no choice as he himself says. What applies to them isn't to be considered as the usual way things between a proto-Radiant and his spren go.

 

To heal his eyesight Ren likely needed more than a sphere, so it must have been conscious use of stormlight, which points towards Ren being aware of Glys. Kal has had Syl for months before he used stormlight or noticed anything out of the ordinary. Glys having enough of his memories at the end of WoR to tell Ren he's a Truthwatcher also points towards a long forming bond and at least one spoken Ideal.

 

Of course goodness and certain Radiant-like type of behavior isn't canceled by having a Blade, however I think it makes the person less likely to get chosen for a Nahel bond because of his/her already established bond with another Radiant spren.

[Guest]

Well, one of my other theories is that if Adolin doesn't become a Radiant he somehow gets Nightblood in his hands and therefore manages to be very useful in fight and able to defend himslef :ph34r: That would work if after the truth on the murder went out Adolin was exiled and run into Szeth. But Adolin does seem as a good potential wielder for Nightblood in my opinion (then again, I don't know too much about Nightblood yet...)

 

I do not see Adolin with Nightblood.... He is too emotional/impulsive to safely wield a half-mad blood thirsty sword.

 

 

As for the first ideal... I think it must be spoken, but it starts to "work" when somebody truly lives by it. So Adolin may say the words in a conversation with Kaladin for example (like, Kal says something related to the meaning of this ideal and Adolin says something along the lines "oh, yeah... life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination, and so on") without putting any meaning behind them and only later start to live by the ideal. I mean, Kaladin repeated the ideal after Teft but didn't truly believe in it, then in the chasms he understood the meaning and then it started to work even if he didn't say the words again (at least that's how I remember it).

 

I think you need to say them with some purpose behind it... I doubt Adolin carelessly saying the words in a random conversation would count as stating the first oath. When Kal repeated it, he was trying to grasp the meaning, or so I gathered, but it is true he only understood a while later. Nonetheless, Kal did not say the words randomly. He more or less knew what he was saying.

 

I think he needs to say it and to believe it, but he may do so without thinking he actually is bonding a spren. He'll probably pondered a lot on the Radiant over the next book and let's not foget he did ask Ardent Kadash to find him some information regarding this specific subject. I suspect Adolin will learn a few things by the band and that first oath will linger in his head for a while. At some point, he'll understand, he'll say it, but he won't know he is reviving his Blade in the process. Or something along those lines.

 

 

Actually, I already like Jasnah more than Shallan   And I see Renarin as having potential to be interesting if he gets more spotlight. I guess I can be attached to them all But as for the current ones, I don't really care for Eshonai, she's not interesting to me. Szeth isn't too much as well. So isn't Navani. But Kaladin, Adolin, Shallan and Dalinar (in this order) are

 

At this point in the story, I am more attached to Shallan then to Jasnah. Renarin is a nice kid, but I doubt he could grow into one of my favorite. His secretive nature and his overall plot is not something that appeals to me greatly. Eshonai is fine. Szeth, I like him more now. I like Navani, but the main four remain my favorites.

 

 

Actually, Martin did kill seemingly the main (or one of the most "main" characters) at the end of Dance with Dragons... And it annoyed me, as that was a character I actually liked quite much And for that one death I don't see a proper reason as for the others... But that may be my opinion.

But I agree, his characters were not so well developed as the ones in SA. Maybe because there are so many of them... With him there is usually "ok, this one died but I have 10 or so other characters that I liked on the same level so it's not so bad", while in SA it would be more of a "nooo!! why??!! "

 

 

But he is not dead! He warged into his wolf... He has seven life, remember?

 

 

Well, the way I understood the book, spren do seem to be driven away form people holding dead Shardblades. Syl did consider those people "bad" (she mentioned how Dalinar became a better person when he gave up Oathbringer), so I guess so would other spren. It's not that the person's goodness means nothing but the spren may be too scared to approach. At the point when they didn't yet form the bond they aren't too intelligent in the physical realm, so they act on instinct. And their instinct says "Shardblades are evil" so they stay away from them and therefore may not even see the goodness in their potantial partner. Stormfather is a whole different matter, as despite the lack of Nahel bond he is perfectly conscious and aware. He chose Dalinar for the visions because it seemed the best option he had and he wasn't too happy to bond him in the end.

And I believe it was said that Renarin stopped wearing glasses before he was given a Blade... And to heal his eyesight I think he would have to use stormlight consciously, what indicates a rather developed bond (at least the first oath - that's when Kaladin started to consciously breathe in stormlight).

 

 

Dalinar and the Stormfather are a compltely different category. The Stormfather had no choice as he himself says. What applies to them isn't to be considered as the usual way things between a proto-Radiant and his spren go.

 

To heal his eyesight Ren likely needed more than a sphere, so it must have been conscious use of stormlight, which points towards Ren being aware of Glys. Kal has had Syl for months before he used stormlight or noticed anything out of the ordinary. Glys having enough of his memories at the end of WoR to tell Ren he's a Truthwatcher also points towards a long forming bond and at least one spoken Ideal.

 

Of course goodness and certain Radiant-like type of behavior isn't canceled by having a Blade, however I think it makes the person less likely to get chosen for a Nahel bond because of his/her already established bond with another Radiant spren.

 

 

Renarin healed his eyesight shortly before going on that Plateau run with Adolin, so sometimes between chapter 14 and 38 (apprx). When he received the Blade first, he grimaced, which indicates a discomfort, but not a screaming Blade. If the Blade had been screaming then, I think he would have reacted harshly then he did. However, it did scream when he tried to confront the Parshendi and his overall reaction does indicate it may have been the first time he heard it.

 

Bottom line is Renarin spoke the first oath after receiving his Blade, but since he was already forming a bond, the spren was not repealed. Renarin own reaction of disgust may have also played in his favor.

 

I agree healing his eyesight suggest a conscious use of a significant amount of stormlight, which again points towards him having said at the very least the first oath. By the end of WoR, Glys has progress enough to tell him he is a Truthwatcher, which suggests he probably said the second oath as well.

 

Overall, I think Renarin is much more advanced then people seem to think. He is not barely learning how to draw stormlight: he has been doing it for quite a while now. The powerful visions he received also speak in favor of him having said a few oaths.

[Kyats Rani she/her]

I do not see Adolin with Nightblood.... He is too emotional/impulsive to safely wield a half-mad blood thirsty sword.

Ok, I guess that would have too much potential to get out of hand and end in a disaster   But it would still be cool

 

I think you need to say them with some purpose behind it... I doubt Adolin carelessly saying the words in a random conversation would count as stating the first oath. When Kal repeated it, he was trying to grasp the meaning, or so I gathered, but it is true he only understood a while later. Nonetheless, Kal did not say the words randomly. He more or less knew what he was saying.

 

I think he needs to say it and to believe it, but he may do so without thinking he actually is bonding a spren. He'll probably pondered a lot on the Radiant over the next book and let's not foget he did ask Ardent Kadash to find him some information regarding this specific subject. I suspect Adolin will learn a few things by the band and that first oath will linger in his head for a while. At some point, he'll understand, he'll say it, but he won't know he is reviving his Blade in the process. Or something along those lines.

Ok, you're right. But I think Adolin has seen to many Radiants to understand the oath and then speak it while not expecting it to have any significance. It's more likely that he will do something alike to what Kal did: having those words stuck in his head he will try his hardest to understand them (possibly to better understand those close to him who became Radiants) so he may say them aloud trying to work out their real meaning but with no success and at some later point come to some moral conclusions unaware that this is the meaning of the first ideal.

 

 

But he is not dead! He warged into his wolf... He has seven life, remember?

I hope so...

Everything is possible after we have seen the Stoneheart and Benjen-Coldhands... Though hopefully he won't stay being a wolf

 

 

...

So maybe Renarin flinched upon receiving the Blade because he saw how it's proximity affected Glys and become afraid of it? Kind of "is it a good idea to touch this if a spren fears it?"

 

I strongly believe Renarin to be after saying at least 2 oaths by the end of WoR. We didn't see his progress but it doesn't mean he made none. But I think him to have problems with surgebinding - he consciously healed his sight but the visions seem as an unconscious (if not unvoluntary) doing. He propably didn't try to train his abilities as Kaladin and Shallan were doing, so he may not know how to make use of, say, Progression. He has powers but not the ability to use them as he pleases. I see him as somebody advanced in oaths but rookie when it comes to making use of what he can do.

[Guest]

 

Ok, you're right. But I think Adolin has seen to many Radiants to understand the oath and then speak it while not expecting it to have any significance. It's more likely that he will do something alike to what Kal did: having those words stuck in his head he will try his hardest to understand them (possibly to better understand those close to him who became Radiants) so he may say them aloud trying to work out their real meaning but with no success and at some later point come to some moral conclusions unaware that this is the meaning of the first ideal.

 

I think there is quite a difference between knowing the oaths and really understanding them. Adolin will most likely learn the first ideal through Dalinar and Renarin, but before he actively understands it, it may be a while. However, I do think he won't consciously revive his Blade... He'll probably act on instinct. I have been wondering how many oaths he truly needs to say... Kaladin repeated two ideals and added a third one to bring Syl back to life, but since he said them in rapid succession, there is no telling if he really needed to say them all....

 

I so wish we are going to see this plot played out.

 

 

So maybe Renarin flinched upon receiving the Blade because he saw how it's proximity affected Glys and become afraid of it? Kind of "is it a good idea to touch this if a spren fears it?"

 

I strongly believe Renarin to be after saying at least 2 oaths by the end of WoR. We didn't see his progress but it doesn't mean he made none. But I think him to have problems with surgebinding - he consciously healed his sight but the visions seem as an unconscious (if not unvoluntary) doing. He propably didn't try to train his abilities as Kaladin and Shallan were doing, so he may not know how to make use of, say, Progression. He has powers but not the ability to use them as he pleases. I see him as somebody advanced in oaths but rookie when it comes to making use of what he can do.

 

I think he flinched because the Blade felt uncomfortable. Dalinar has a similar experience upon bonding Taln Blade.

 

I do believe he has said at least two oaths by the end of WoR. I also think he has used his surges, but he does not control the visions it gives him. These are probably a side product of being a Truthwatcher, much like Dalinar gets vision of the past... I would think it doubtful he has not experienced with his surges at all.... He did, after all, write glyphs on the wall without anyone noticing. That strongly suggest use of the surge of Illumination. My guess is Renarin is not the rookie everyone thinks him to be. He has no self-confidence, but he is smart... His level of interaction with Glys and his conscious healing of his eyesight (he knew what he was doing as he states so to Dalinar) suggest a certain advancement I do not see happening without him trying out his surges.

 

Bottom line is I would not be surprised to find Renarin just a step below Kaladin or even at a similar level. Either way, he is more advanced then Dalinar.

[KevinTheHerdazian he/him]

I think there is quite a difference between knowing the oaths and really understanding them. Adolin will most likely learn the first ideal through Dalinar and Renarin, but before he actively understands it, it may be a while. However, I do think he won't consciously revive his Blade... He'll probably act on instinct. I have been wondering how many oaths he truly needs to say... Kaladin repeated two ideals and added a third one to bring Syl back to life, but since he said them in rapid succession, there is no telling if he really needed to say them all....

 

I so wish we are going to see this plot played out.

 

 

 

I think he flinched because the Blade felt uncomfortable. Dalinar has a similar experience upon bonding Taln Blade.

 

I do believe he has said at least two oaths by the end of WoR. I also think he has used his surges, but he does not control the visions it gives him. These are probably a side product of being a Truthwatcher, much like Dalinar gets vision of the past... I would think it doubtful he has not experienced with his surges at all.... He did, after all, write glyphs on the wall without anyone noticing. That strongly suggest use of the surge of Illumination. My guess is Renarin is not the rookie everyone thinks him to be. He has no self-confidence, but he is smart... His level of interaction with Glys and his conscious healing of his eyesight (he knew what he was doing as he states so to Dalinar) suggest a certain advancement I do not see happening without him trying out his surges.

 

Bottom line is I would not be surprised to find Renarin just a step below Kaladin or even at a similar level. Either way, he is more advanced then Dalinar.

well Kaladin was unconsciously reverse lashing the bridge to absorb arrows into it. And he ha only said the Universal ideal to the radiants. He didn't say the second one until the end of Wok, so renarin wouldn't have to be a level 2 radiant to use at least one of his surges. And could you quote where it says renarin consciously healed his eyes? I was under the impression that he did it unconsciously by sucking stormlight.

[KevinTheHerdazian he/him]

Why do you say he gets his Blade before Glys? Syl was bonding with Kaladin way before he discovered he could use stormlight, so it's unfounded to assume Ren formed a bond with his spren shortly before healing his sight. Glys probably didn't have the mind to explain to Renarin what was going on and why he shouldn't get the Blade. Ren wasn't keen on bonding it if you recall the scene when Adolin gives him Blade, so the'd likely already felt something wasn't quite right without being able to explain why. The screaming starts, as I believe maxal mentioned, after the one says the first Oath if we're to judge based on Dalinar's experience.

if you can say that then I can say that maybe adolin has already attracted a spren (maybe his shard blade). Renarin got his blade as soon as adolin won his first duel. Pg 227 I think. And I'm not sure when he stopped wearing glasses but I'm pretty sure it was after. And since adolin has had his blade since 15 then he could have been bonding with it ( oh so slowly) since then because that's the age where most people believe that syl started bonding with Kaladin.

[Kyats Rani she/her]

well Kaladin was unconsciously reverse lashing the bridge to absorb arrows into it. And he ha only said the Universal ideal to the radiants. He didn't say the second one until the end of Wok, so renarin wouldn't have to be a level 2 radiant to use at least one of his surges. And could you quote where it says renarin consciously healed his eyes? I was under the impression that he did it unconsciously by sucking stormlight.

 

if you can say that then I can say that maybe adolin has already attracted a spren (maybe his shard blade). Renarin got his blade as soon as adolin won his first duel. Pg 227 I think. And I'm not sure when he stopped wearing glasses but I'm pretty sure it was after. And since adolin has had his blade since 15 then he could have been bonding with it ( oh so slowly) since then because that's the age where most people believe that syl started bonding with Kaladin.

 

Well, the matter of healing with stormlight is that it bases on how a person sees himself. Judging by Renarin's character he propably considered the spectacles a part of him as Kaladin considers his brands. Unconscious healing happens only to injures that are either life-threatening or something temporary (like Shallan's feet). If Renarin didn't know that he can heal himslef he wouldn't try to heal his eyes. When he found out that this is possible he consciously decided to heal his eyesight. And it may not be so much about that he considered his problems with eyes a part of himslef but the fact that he considered them unhealable. It is known that a flesh wound can be healed but on Roshar healing eyesight is not possible. As long as Renarin didn't know it's possible to heal his eyes he couldn't do it. So how did he find out it is possible? Because Glys told him so (I see no other logical explanation). And so Renarin could make a consiuos decision to heal his eyes. That does indicate at least the first oath.

 

The problem with Renarin is that we know so little about him and therefore his progression as a Radiant. But it is known that the abilities of a Radiant, both the healing and physical enhancing capabilities and surgebinding, become more powerful with every spoken oath. Renarin's visions were in my opinion a very powerful case of surgebinding so that's why I say he has propably spoken two oath by the end of WoR. It can be also judged by what we know of Glys. He knew that Renarin was a Truthwatcher. Syl got a recollection of such things (the name of the order and even what kind of spren she is) only around the time when Kaladin spoke the second ideal, so I'm pretty convinced that Renarin has said two oaths by the time he confronted the other Radiants.

 

As for Adolin slowly bonding the spren of his Blade... I wouldn't yet call that proper bonding in regard of the Nahel bond. He bonded a Blade and with time forged a kind of close relationship with it, which may soon lead him to the Nahel bond. But he's not quite there yet.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

Well, the matter of healing with stormlight is that it bases on how a person sees himself. Judging by Renarin's character he propably considered the spectacles a part of him as Kaladin considers his brands. Unconscious healing happens only to injures that are either life-threatening or something temporary (like Shallan's feet). If Renarin didn't know that he can heal himslef he wouldn't try to heal his eyes. When he found out that this is possible he consciously decided to heal his eyesight. And it may not be so much about that he considered his problems with eyes a part of himslef but the fact that he considered them unhealable. It is known that a flesh wound can be healed but on Roshar healing eyesight is not possible. As long as Renarin didn't know it's possible to heal his eyes he couldn't do it. So how did he find out it is possible? Because Glys told him so (I see no other logical explanation). And so Renarin could make a consiuos decision to heal his eyes. That does indicate at least the first oath.

 

It can be also judged by what we know of Glys. He knew that Renarin was a Truthwatcher. Syl got a recollection of such things (the name of the order and even what kind of spren she is) only around the time when Kaladin spoke the second ideal, so I'm pretty convinced that Renarin has said two oaths by the time he confronted the other Radiants.

 

I can't agree with you here... Renarin's eye healing was almost certainly a byproduct of his bond and unconscious stormlight healing precisely because of the fact that you point out, why would someone think to consciously try to use stormlight to heal something that they a) view as part of themselves (bad eyes) and isn't an obvious wound to be healed. I also point to the Lopen's arm which automatically started to heal itself the first time he inhaled stormlight. 

 

As to Glys' knowledge... it's so hard to say why/how a spren remembers things. It is almost certainly related to the level of the bond, but each of the bonded spren we've seen thus far seem to know a differing amount about the "hidden/historical" information than others. Pattern developed mentally very quickly... maybe because they had already advance their bond and were just "healing" it at the point we're seeing, or maybe because Pattern gets knowledge back faster than other spren types.

 

Obviously the Stormfather is an outlier or a bonded spren, but he seems to not really gain much (yet) from his bond with Dalinar in terms of intelligence. Maybe he'll get some sanity from bonding, that would be nice. 

 

In one of Lift's interludes, Wyndle makes a statement that he had "holes in his memory, even with the precautions his people took..." so he seems to know more for his bond level than Syl who did it all on her own and has remembered everything very slowly and/or out of context. 

[Kyats Rani she/her]

I can't agree with you here... Renarin's eye healing was almost certainly a byproduct of his bond and unconscious stormlight healing precisely because of the fact that you point out, why would someone think to consciously try to use stormlight to heal something that they a) view as part of themselves (bad eyes) and isn't an obvious wound to be healed. I also point to the Lopen's arm which automatically started to heal itself the first time he inhaled stormlight. 

 

You make a valid statement here. But apparently we see it very differently so let's just peacefully disagree on that

 

As for Lopen - he knew for quite some time that it is possible to heal with stormlight (basing on what he had seen with Kaladin) and he propably thought of healing his arm for quite a long time prior. I mean, he often spoke about wanting to learn how to surgebind giving flying and glowing as his reasons. But I think he secretly just wanted to heal himself but he wouldn't tell anyone about it as he was always trying to make an impression he's not bothered at all by the loss of his arm.

[KevinTheHerdazian he/him]

Well he was completely focused on sucking in the light and he hadn't even noticed he succeeded until he felt a nub on his arm. At that point he says " give the Lopen your spheres, I have glowing that needs to be done" or something like that.

[KevinTheHerdazian he/him]

It doesn't seem like he was trying to heal at all. It just happened. And Kaladin was sucking stormlight during bridge runs totally unaware for a time before teft pointed it out. Mysterious dun spheres. And using a surge is a lot harder that just sucking in stormlight and letting it heal you, so I'm pretty sure that renarin's eyes healed by stormlight and not by progression.

[Guest]

well Kaladin was unconsciously reverse lashing the bridge to absorb arrows into it. And he ha only said the Universal ideal to the radiants. He didn't say the second one until the end of Wok, so renarin wouldn't have to be a level 2 radiant to use at least one of his surges. And could you quote where it says renarin consciously healed his eyes? I was under the impression that he did it unconsciously by sucking stormlight.

 

Renarin is hearing his Blade screaming which, based on Dalinar's experience, happens after one has said the first oath. He has therefore, at the very least, said the first oath, sometime during the first third of the book.

 

Kaladin was not able to consciously use his surges until he said the second oath. Before that, he was not doing anything on purpose: surgebinding just happened to protect him when he needed it. Syl was also not able to fully identify what he was before that.

 

The fact Glys has evolved enough to tell Renarin what he is strongly suggests the 2nd oath. Pattern is not a valid example as Shallan once was a very advanced knight, but she regressed, so Pattern was not exactly new. It does explain why he seemed to gain consciousness rapidly.

 

We don't know if Renarin healed his eyes consciously or not, but we assumed he did based on clues. For one, he knows what he did as he explained it to Dalinar. For second, eyesight is not a serious injury, based on what we have seen, he would need to want to heal it for it to work. It is quite probable he wished to be rid of his glasses in order to better portrayed the idea he has of a warrior.

 

 

if you can say that then I can say that maybe adolin has already attracted a spren (maybe his shard blade). Renarin got his blade as soon as adolin won his first duel. Pg 227 I think. And I'm not sure when he stopped wearing glasses but I'm pretty sure it was after. And since adolin has had his blade since 15 then he could have been bonding with it ( oh so slowly) since then because that's the age where most people believe that syl started bonding with Kaladin.

 

Adolin most likely got his Blade at 16 on one of his first (if not the first) official duel. He inherited his Plate at 16 and he stated he would have forfeit it had he lost the match. I also suspect one need to be at least 16 years of age to officially enter the dueling arena. He bonded Sureblood sometimes after. So yeah, 16 years old and he is a full shardbearer riding a Rhysadium. No matter some people resent him.

 

I think he may have been deepening his bond with his Blade for quite some time, but it is not a Nahel bond yet. Although the comparison with Kaladin's experience is a valid one... Kaladin had Syl as a teenager: Adolin had his Blade at around the same age. One of my theory is the Blade is actually naturally attracted to Adolin as he embodies the attribute of her order. He may be the first wielder to do so in 4500 years.

 

 

The problem with Renarin is that we know so little about him and therefore his progression as a Radiant. But it is known that the abilities of a Radiant, both the healing and physical enhancing capabilities and surgebinding, become more powerful with every spoken oath. Renarin's visions were in my opinion a very powerful case of surgebinding so that's why I say he has propably spoken two oath by the end of WoR. It can be also judged by what we know of Glys. He knew that Renarin was a Truthwatcher. Syl got a recollection of such things (the name of the order and even what kind of spren she is) only around the time when Kaladin spoke the second ideal, so I'm pretty convinced that Renarin has said two oaths by the time he confronted the other Radiants.

 

I agree. The visions are a clue he may be more advance then we think. Just because he is secretive and awkward does not mean he has not progressed. All of the others progressed quite a lot on their own. No reason to think Renarin, a smart kid with a lot of free time on his hands would not have done the same, even if he was afraid of what he was becoming.

 

 

As for Adolin slowly bonding the spren of his Blade... I wouldn't yet call that proper bonding in regard of the Nahel bond. He bonded a Blade and with time forged a kind of close relationship with it, which may soon lead him to the Nahel bond. But he's not quite there yet.

 

I think his behavior towards the Blade may imply a form of slow bonding even if it is not a Nahel bond just yet. It could be the spren has gain back enough conscience to want to bond Adolin, but is unable to. Or maybe it is afraid it'll get hurt again... Poor thing. I so hope at least one of them will break free.

 

 

It doesn't seem like he was trying to heal at all. It just happened. And Kaladin was sucking stormlight during bridge runs totally unaware for a time before teft pointed it out. Mysterious dun spheres. And using a surge is a lot harder that just sucking in stormlight and letting it heal you, so I'm pretty sure that renarin's eyes healed by stormlight and not by progression.

 

Kaladin was using stormlight to grant him superior endurance and speed all the while diverting the deadly arrows from him. He was fighting for his life everyday. Renarin's life never been in danger. I believe he draw in stormlight and heal his eyes, on purpose. I do agree he did not use Progression. I doubt he is advanced enough to have figured out how to heal with Progression just yet.

[Aleksiel]

if you can say that then I can say that maybe adolin has already attracted a spren (maybe his shard blade). Renarin got his blade as soon as adolin won his first duel. Pg 227 I think. And I'm not sure when he stopped wearing glasses but I'm pretty sure it was after. And since adolin has had his blade since 15 then he could have been bonding with it ( oh so slowly) since then because that's the age where most people believe that syl started bonding with Kaladin.

 

Why exactly do you bring a Shardbearer in the discussion? Yes, healing his eyesight is after bonding the Blade. What does Adolin have to do with Ren bonding Glys? Adolin already has a bond with his Blade. It doesn't matter if the Blade's spren is attracted to him or not (well, this just sounds plain wrong  ), it can't go anywhere else either way.

 

@maxal: Based to Dalinar's experience a Blade starts screaming after the second oath is spoken. He didn't touch his Blade between saying the first and the second, so we can't say which one makes the difference. Kaladin also didn't have contact with a Blade between the first two, so we don't know for sure.

 

Back on whether or not Glys is pre-Blade: Dalinar felt uncomfortable with his new Blade in WoR, but he's been bonding with the Stormfather before/since WoK. Ren also felt uncomfortable taking a Blade on the beginning of WoR, however I'm inclined to believe it didn't scream else he'd have a more startled Kal-like reaction upon the first contact. So I believe there already was a pre-Oaths Nahel bond between Ren and Glys.

 

Unconscious breathing in stormlight happens is extreme situations: Kal with the bridge, Dalinar and the chasmfiend, Jasnah after being thrown into Shadesmar in the prelude. It's very unlikely so far as I'm concerned for Ren to have casually breathed in stormlight on an insufferably rainy, yet normal, day and accidentally healed his eyesight. Purposely trying to breath in stormlight take time to get it right without instructions and means one is already aware somethings going on.

 

Ren thought it was 'all in his head' (his word at the end of WoR), so Glys didn't have the memories to explain more to him before. We don't know if Glys had any help coming to Roshar or not. If he didn't (like Syl), then the bond must have been forming for months before the end of WoR, somewhere at the end of WoK if I recall the timeline well enough to estimate correctly half an year before the end of WoR is during WoK. Will check it later. Second case scenario: Glys like Wyndle had help. Then he would be able to recover his memories faster and should have known many things from the very beginning. However, we can only guess if Glys had help. If Ym's spren is TW's (which is the most popular take on his interlude), then I'd say no, nobody helped Glys and he's been around since the beginning of WoR.