[Theory] It has been foreshadowed that Adolin will be a Radiant.

[KevinTheHerdazian]

Why exactly do you bring a Shardbearer in the discussion? Yes, healing his eyesight is after bonding the Blade. What does Adolin have to do with Ren bonding Glys? Adolin already has a bond with his Blade. It doesn't matter if the Blade's spren is attracted to him or not (well, this just sounds plain wrong ), it can't go anywhere else either way.

@maxal: Based to Dalinar's experience a Blade starts screaming after the second oath is spoken. He didn't touch his Blade between saying the first and the second, so we can't say which one makes the difference. Kaladin also didn't have contact with a Blade between the first two, so we don't know for sure.

Back on whether or not Glys is pre-Blade: Dalinar felt uncomfortable with his new Blade in WoR, but he's been bonding with the Stormfather before/since WoK. Ren also felt uncomfortable taking a Blade on the beginning of WoR, however I'm inclined to believe it didn't scream else he'd have a more startled Kal-like reaction upon the first contact. So I believe there already was a pre-Oaths Nahel bond between Ren and Glys.

Unconscious breathing in stormlight happens is extreme situations: Kal with the bridge, Dalinar and the chasmfiend, Jasnah after being thrown into Shadesmar in the prelude. It's very unlikely so far as I'm concerned for Ren to have casually breathed in stormlight on an insufferably rainy, yet normal, day and accidentally healed his eyesight. Purposely trying to breath in stormlight take time to get it right without instructions and means one is already aware somethings going on.

Ren thought it was 'all in his head' (his word at the end of WoR), so Glys didn't have the memories to explain more to him before. We don't know if Glys had any help coming to Roshar or not. If he didn't (like Syl), then the bond must have been forming for months before the end of WoR, somewhere at the end of WoK if I recall the timeline well enough to estimate correctly half an year before the end of WoR is during WoK. Will check it later. Second case scenario: Glys like Wyndle had help. Then he would be able to recover his memories faster and should have known many things from the very beginning. However, we can only guess if Glys had help. If Ym's spren is TW's (which is the most popular take on his interlude), then I'd say no, nobody helped Glys and he's been around since the beginning of WoR.

it has to do with it because people said it is impossible to bond a spren while you have a shard blade. And renarin got one before he healed his eyes which, to me, implies he wasn't a radiant until a little before healing his eyes. Syl didn't like shard blades ever so I would also assume that you would hear screaming. I do agree that ym's spren was a TW because he isn't described as vines like wyndle. But say renarin did have glys before the blade, I think that would have slowed their bond because glys would be fighting with a zombie and stuff. ( I like to think at shard blades as zombies because they're "dead")

[Aleksiel]

it has to do with it because people said it is impossible to bond a spren while you have a shard blade. And renarin got one before he healed his eyes which, to me, implies he wasn't a radiant until a little before healing his eyes. Syl didn't like shard blades ever so I would also assume that you would hear screaming. I do agree that ym's spren was a TW because he isn't described as vines like wyndle. But say renarin did have glys before the blade, I think that would have slowed their bond because glys would be fighting with a zombie and stuff. ( I like to think at shard blades as zombies because they're "dead")

 

It's possible to bond a spren while having a Shardblade, Dalinar did it. 

 

I don't understand the 'Glys fighting a zombie' part of your post, what do you mean by it? Why would Glys be fighting the dead spren? The two bonds are different, there shouldn't be a competition between the spren. If you think having a Blade makes a Nahel bond impossible, then why are you arguing Ren bonded Glys after the Blade?

Edited November 7, 2014 by Aleksiel

[KevinTheHerdazian]

I said slow it down. Don't put words in my mouth

[maxal]

 

@maxal: Based to Dalinar's experience a Blade starts screaming after the second oath is spoken. He didn't touch his Blade between saying the first and the second, so we can't say which one makes the difference. Kaladin also didn't have contact with a Blade between the first two, so we don't know for sure.

 

Good point. I have always thought he touched the Blade between the oaths. I see I was recalling things wrong. We thus do not know if the screaming Blade is caused by the first or the second oath. It is therefore possible Renarin could have said the second oath as early as first third of WoR. Somehow, I am not convinced, but it is a possibility.

 

 

Back on whether or not Glys is pre-Blade: Dalinar felt uncomfortable with his new Blade in WoR, but he's been bonding with the Stormfather before/since WoK. Ren also felt uncomfortable taking a Blade on the beginning of WoR, however I'm inclined to believe it didn't scream else he'd have a more startled Kal-like reaction upon the first contact. So I believe there already was a pre-Oaths Nahel bond between Ren and Glys.

 

Exactly the point I was trying to make. Renarin does not hear the Blade screaming when Adolin hands to him after the duel: he felt a discomfort similar to the one Dalinar experienced while trying to bond Taln's Blade. It does indicate he has been bonding with Glys perhaps as early as WoK or even before. We have seen bonds can take a long time to develop. I do agree with every point you make.

 

 

Unconscious breathing in stormlight happens is extreme situations: Kal with the bridge, Dalinar and the chasmfiend, Jasnah after being thrown into Shadesmar in the prelude. It's very unlikely so far as I'm concerned for Ren to have casually breathed in stormlight on an insufferably rainy, yet normal, day and accidentally healed his eyesight. Purposely trying to breath in stormlight take time to get it right without instructions and means one is already aware somethings going on.

 

Again, I agree. Renarin was not in a life or death situation. His eyesight is not a threatening injury, but a condition he most likely was born with. I do agree he was experiencing and he did ask for the stormlight to heal his vision, probably as a test case as he had no injuries on him. It is quite possible Glys told him stormlight could heal him, so he tried it.

 

 

Ren thought it was 'all in his head' (his word at the end of WoR), so Glys didn't have the memories to explain more to him before. We don't know if Glys had any help coming to Roshar or not. If he didn't (like Syl), then the bond must have been forming for months before the end of WoR, somewhere at the end of WoK if I recall the timeline well enough to estimate correctly half an year before the end of WoR is during WoK. Will check it later. Second case scenario: Glys like Wyndle had help. Then he would be able to recover his memories faster and should have known many things from the very beginning. However, we can only guess if Glys had help. If Ym's spren is TW's (which is the most popular take on his interlude), then I'd say no, nobody helped Glys and he's been around since the beginning of WoR.

 

Renarin clearly states he thought the screaming Blade was in his head, which is quite understandable. Syl was not able to identify what was wrong with the Blades until Kal spoke the third oath. It is highly possible Glys did not have the required memories to explain to Renarin the reason behind this behavior. It is also highly probable Glys was unhappy about the bonded Blade and asked for Renarin to get rid of it.

 

Glys has without a doubt been around since the beginning of WoR and I suspect he was around in WoK as well.

 

 

it has to do with it because people said it is impossible to bond a spren while you have a shard blade. And renarin got one before he healed his eyes which, to me, implies he wasn't a radiant until a little before healing his eyes. Syl didn't like shard blades ever so I would also assume that you would hear screaming. I do agree that ym's spren was a TW because he isn't described as vines like wyndle. But say renarin did have glys before the blade, I think that would have slowed their bond because glys would be fighting with a zombie and stuff. ( I like to think at shard blades as zombies because they're "dead")

 

Nobody said it was impossible to bond a spren while holding a shardblade. We said it was improbable any living sprens would come near Adolin specifically since he treats his dead spren as if it were alive.

 

I don't know where you get Glys is fighting a zombie... The Blade bond is not a Nahel bond. The only Blade bond we have seen that may be more was Adolin's. Other Blade bond seem rather passive.

[Aleksiel]

Good point. I have always thought he touched the Blade between the oaths. I see I was recalling things wrong. We thus do not know if the screaming Blade is caused by the first or the second oath. It is therefore possible Renarin could have said the second oath as early as first third of WoR. Somehow, I am not convinced, but it is a possibility.

 

But the first Oath doesn't seem to do anything flashy... How cool would it be if Ren has said two Ideals in the same book on his without help? Yeah, ok, I'm not buying it either... It makes more sense to for us to witness his second Oath like we did with Lift. That was actually the only part I meant for you as we are in agreement for the rest.

 

 

I said slow it down. Don't put words in my mouth

 

So what if it slows it down? WoR takes months of time. But why and how would a Blade slow down a forming Nahel bond? So far as WoB go, one has to say an Ideal or the bond evaporates in time on its own. Saying the first Ideal doesn't need Ren to be aware of his spren, especially after hearing in-world WoK only Almighty knows how many times.

[maxal]

But the first Oath doesn't seem to do anything flashy... How cool would it be if Ren has said two Ideals in the same book on his without help? Yeah, ok, I'm not buying it either... It makes more sense to for us to witness his second Oath like we did with Lift. That was actually the only part I meant for you as we are in agreement for the rest.

 

Without who's help? Glys? I believe Glys has been helping Renarin throughout the whole book. It is only logical he did as all sprens we have seen are trying to aid their knights. Renarin is not a special case, he is quite your average individual bonding a spren.

 

I do not think we are going to witness every single oaths. There are too many characters for that and Brandon seems to have chosen to show us the progression of only a few. I kind of like it this way as according a large place to all proto-radiant would diminished the character development our mains have had so far.

 

Actually, I do believe Renarin has said the second oath; when however is a matter of debate. Was it at the beginning or WoR or at the end?

 

 

So what if it slows it down? WoR takes months of time. But why and how would a Blade slow down a forming Nahel bond? So far as WoB go, one has to say an Ideal or the bond evaporates in time on its own. Saying the first Ideal doesn't need Ren to be aware of his spren, especially after hearing in-world WoK only Almighty knows how many times.

 

Actually, I think you need to be aware of your spren to be able to state the first ideal convincingly. Kaladin knew of Syl quite a while before he said his first oath. There are no reasons to believe things happened differently for Renarin.

[KevinTheHerdazian]

I'm confused... Do you all mean the second oath after the universal one or second oath total? Like as a level 3 or level 2?

[maxal]

I'm confused... Do you all mean the second oath after the universal one or second oath total? Like as a level 3 or level 2?

 

We are saying the second oath including the universal one, like a level 2. I am thinking Renarin said the first oath, life before death and such, sometimes after bonding his Blade and most likely said the second one, whatever it is, through the course of the book.

 

Clues to support this:

 

1) Renarin does not initially hears his Blade screaming, but he feels a discomfort upon holding it. Dalinar experienced the same thing while bonding Taln's Blade. This strongly suggest Renarin had started bonding with Glys prior to receiving the Blade, but had most likely not said any oath at that point in time.

 

2) Renarin clearly hears his Blade screaming when he goes out on the Plateau run with Adolin. He is disturbed by it which leads us to believe it may very well be the first time he hears it. Also, in this chapter, Adolin notices Renarin is not wearing his glasses. This strongly implies Renarin has said at least one oath as it seems to be a requirement to hear the Blade scream. Also, the healing of his eyesight suggests conscious use of stormlight as any unconscious use of stormlight we have seen so far were triggered by life and death situations.

 

3) Dalinar only hears his Blade scream after saying back to back two oaths. Now, we do not know which oath triggered the screaming, what it the first one (universal one) or the second one? However, 5 days prior to the stating these oaths, Dalinar fought with his Blade without hearing anything special. It is therefore assumed one needs to state at least one oath to hear the scream. Renarin must thus have at the very least stated the first oath by the time he went on that Plateau run with Adolin.

 

4) Renarin knows he is a Truthwatcher which suggest a certain level of awakening from Glys. Kaladin had to say the second oath to be able to gather this information from Syl. Also, Renarin sudden acceptance of his condition upon having spent weeks denying it (or hiding it) indicate he may have progressed some more into his Radianhood. It is therefore assumed he has said the second oath, probably at the end of WoR, but it could have been before.

 

5) Renarin has strong visions which suggest surgebinding. I doubt he would have had those visions without an established Nahel bond. This indicates he must have said at the very least the first oath and perhaps the second one.

 

6) Renarin passed on several guards to draw numbers on the walls. How did he do it? One suggestion is the use of the surge of Illumination. Kaladin was not able to purposely use his surges until he said the second oath. It is therefore possible Renarin has said the second oath as early as the first third of the book.

 

Bottom line is all clues suggest he has stated at the very least the first oath and most likely the second one. The first oath was most likely stated between the Blade giving and the Plateau run. The second one, we don't know, but his behavior strongly suggest he did state it. the third oath? Unlikely, but not impossible. Renarin is a secretive kid. Kaladin progressed quite far in the matter of a few weeks with limited help, so did Shallan. No reasons to believe Renarin did not progress in a similar manner despite him being afraid of his powers.

[KevinTheHerdazian]

I thought it was Dalinar that wrote the numbers on the wall since it was made by his knife. Or did I misread?

 

Edit: Sorry for asking, I lent my SA books to a friend.

Edited November 9, 2014 by WeiryWriter
please don't double post

[Aleksiel]

Without who's help? Glys? I believe Glys has been helping Renarin throughout the whole book. It is only logical he did as all sprens we have seen are trying to aid their knights. Renarin is not a special case, he is quite your average individual bonding a spren.

 

Without someone telling him the Oath. Like how Shallan must have found the words on her own in her childhood unlike Kal who was told by Teft, which is arguably cheating.

 

 

 

I do not think we are going to witness every single oaths. There are too many characters for that and Brandon seems to have chosen to show us the progression of only a few. I kind of like it this way as according a large place to all proto-radiant would diminished the character development our mains have had so far.

 

I believe we'll know all Oaths by the end of SA. It wouldn't make sense otherwise. So far we've only missed one truth from Shallan, but she probably still doesn't remember it any way; unknown number of Oaths from Jasnah, but she's getting a book, so we might get to see it in flashbacks; and lastly arguably an Oath from Ren, who's also getting flashbacks, so there. We could learn other Ideals from non-PoV characters when they talk with a main Radiant or something. Overall, not learning all Oaths by the end of the series will be a huge disappointment for me.

 

I thought it was Dalinar that wrote the numbers on the wall since it was made by his knife. Or did I misread?

 

It's not explicitly said, but it's implied Ren did it. He starts writing numbers right before the everstorm hit. Dalinar on the other hand didn't have any such experiences during WoK, and there's no reason to believe something changed in WoR for him.

 

And the writings always appeared when Dalinar was on his own. How Ren got such a fine timing when he didn't seem to be in control is beyond me. I assume he used Illumination to sneak between guards unnoticed, but there's no textual evidence unless you count nobody seeing Ren write. 

[Kyats Rani]

Without someone telling him the Oath. Like how Shallan must have found the words on her own in her childhood unlike Kal who was told by Teft, which is arguably cheating.

 

I have a feeling that the words didn't simply appear in Shallan's mind either. She must've found them written somewhere or heard someone stating them for one reason or another so later she embraced it as the first ideal (unless that's what you mean and I misunderstood it ).

 

But I wouldn't say that Teft telling Kaladin the ideal is cheating. That way Kal learned the words but he had to understand them for it to have any meaning. It makes sense that every Radiant should come up with the other oaths on their own as they're about the certain idea not the proper wording, so a proto-Radiant must only "find" the right idea in his heart and somehow pu it into words. But the first oath has an exact wording. It's unlikely to think that anyone can come up with this (exactly and word after word) completely on their own. I think the first oath is given to a person and they must understand it not think it up by themselves.

 

 

I believe we'll know all Oaths by the end of SA. It wouldn't make sense otherwise. So far we've only missed one truth from Shallan, but she probably still doesn't remember it any way; unknown number of Oaths from Jasnah, but she's getting a book, so we might get to see it in flashbacks; and lastly arguably an Oath from Ren, who's also getting flashbacks, so there. We could learn other Ideals from non-PoV characters when they talk with a main Radiant or something. Overall, not learning all Oaths by the end of the series will be a huge disappointment for me.

 

I agree. One way or another we will know all oaths of every single order. We may not witness the Radiant speaking them for the first time, but we will learn what they are about. As you said, they may mention to other Radiants what their oaths were about. I guess we may not necessarily see every oath as a quote, but we will at least hear what was their general meaning, as the oaths are not about words used but the idea conveyed.

 

 

It's not explicitly said, but it's implied Ren did it. He starts writing numbers right before the everstorm hit. Dalinar on the other hand didn't have any such experiences during WoK, and there's no reason to believe something changed in WoR for him.

 

And the writings always appeared when Dalinar was on his own. How Ren got such a fine timing when he didn't seem to be in control is beyond me. I assume he used Illumination to sneak between guards unnoticed, but there's no textual evidence unless you count nobody seeing Ren write. 

I hope we will learn about how that happened (maybe in Renarin's flashbacks or maybe he will tell someone). Generally, ever since Renarin revealed himself as Truthwatcher I assumed he was the one to write those numbers, but I have no idea how (at least no logical idea). Besides the fact that the writings appeared when Dalinar was alone there is nothing exlipticly pointing than he could do it. In fact, I always wondered why all of sudden would Dalinar do this as I found nothing in the text indicating that it's something he would do. I mean, if it were from him he would have propably seen it in his visions or Stromfather would tell him. Why would he unconsciously write glyphs on the walls?

[maxal]

Without someone telling him the Oath. Like how Shallan must have found the words on her own in her childhood unlike Kal who was told by Teft, which is arguably cheating.

 

I have a feeling that the words didn't simply appear in Shallan's mind either. She must've found them written somewhere or heard someone stating them for one reason or another so later she embraced it as the first ideal (unless that's what you mean and I misunderstood it ).

 

I do not think it was cheating... Knights of the old were probably all told the first oath early on, but had to embrace its meaning through trials of sort before being able to kick start their Nahel bond. If Adolin starts to say the first oath, are you going to think he is cheating as he will obviously be told its signification before hand?

 

Little Shallan, much like Jasnah, must have either read it somewhere or heard it somewhere. It is entirely impossible for Shallan to have heard her mother say something about it as she seemed to be involved with a secret society of sorts.

 

As for Renarin, he is a smart kid, from a rich family, with hordes of free time on his hands as he have little responsibilities in the running of the Kohlin's princedom. It is not too far-fetched to think he may have found out about it while studying with the Ardents or perhaps it is written in the Way of Kings directly?

 

 

I believe we'll know all Oaths by the end of SA. It wouldn't make sense otherwise. So far we've only missed one truth from Shallan, but she probably still doesn't remember it any way; unknown number of Oaths from Jasnah, but she's getting a book, so we might get to see it in flashbacks; and lastly arguably an Oath from Ren, who's also getting flashbacks, so there. We could learn other Ideals from non-PoV characters when they talk with a main Radiant or something. Overall, not learning all Oaths by the end of the series will be a huge disappointment for me.

 

It is not what I meant. I meant we are not going to see each knight speak its oaths, in the middle of the action, real-time, but we are going to find out what they were sometimes after. As you said, we missed a few oaths and I think we may miss others, but we are going to hear about them later on, either through flashbacks or through the narrative prose. There is a strong chance Renarin will discuss his oaths with Dalinar and Adolin will be close by and hear everything.

 

I agree with you that not finding all the oaths for all of the orders would be a huge disappointment.

 

 

It's not explicitly said, but it's implied Ren did it. He starts writing numbers right before the everstorm hit. Dalinar on the other hand didn't have any such experiences during WoK, and there's no reason to believe something changed in WoR for him.

 

And the writings always appeared when Dalinar was on his own. How Ren got such a fine timing when he didn't seem to be in control is beyond me. I assume he used Illumination to sneak between guards unnoticed, but there's no textual evidence unless you count nobody seeing Ren write. 

 

Renarin lost control at the end of WoR, there is no telling if he always behaved this way when he had visions. The simple fact he managed to keep it a secret for weeks (while Dalinar couldn't in WoK) implies he may have had a certain control over them. The last bit at the oathgate was more him panicking, I think, then a side product of the visions.

 

I agree the textual evidence is not clear, but I have always assumed he was the one. He sneaked pass the guards using Illumination.

 

 

I hope we will learn about how that happened (maybe in Renarin's flashbacks or maybe he will tell someone). Generally, ever since Renarin revealed himself as Truthwatcher I assumed he was the one to write those numbers, but I have no idea how (at least no logical idea). Besides the fact that the writings appeared when Dalinar was alone there is nothing exlipticly pointing than he could do it. In fact, I always wondered why all of sudden would Dalinar do this as I found nothing in the text indicating that it's something he would do. I mean, if it were from him he would have propably seen it in his visions or Stromfather would tell him. Why would he unconsciously write glyphs on the walls?

Dalinar assumed it was the culprit after it became clear his knife have been used to scratch the wall. Adolin was obviously disturbed by this fact which leads me to wonder how he'll react upon finding out Renarin did it all....

[Aleksiel]

I have a feeling that the words didn't simply appear in Shallan's mind either. She must've found them written somewhere or heard someone stating them for one reason or another so later she embraced it as the first ideal (unless that's what you mean and I misunderstood it ).

 

But I wouldn't say that Teft telling Kaladin the ideal is cheating. That way Kal learned the words but he had to understand them for it to have any meaning. It makes sense that every Radiant should come up with the other oaths on their own as they're about the certain idea not the proper wording, so a proto-Radiant must only "find" the right idea in his heart and somehow pu it into words. But the first oath has an exact wording. It's unlikely to think that anyone can come up with this (exactly and word after word) completely on their own. I think the first oath is given to a person and they must understand it not think it up by themselves.

 

I do not think it was cheating... Knights of the old were probably all told the first oath early on, but had to embrace its meaning through trials of sort before being able to kick start their Nahel bond. If Adolin starts to say the first oath, are you going to think he is cheating as he will obviously be told its signification before hand?

 

Little Shallan, much like Jasnah, must have either read it somewhere or heard it somewhere. It is entirely impossible for Shallan to have heard her mother say something about it as she seemed to be involved with a secret society of sorts.

 

As for Renarin, he is a smart kid, from a rich family, with hordes of free time on his hands as he have little responsibilities in the running of the Kohlin's princedom. It is not too far-fetched to think he may have found out about it while studying with the Ardents or perhaps it is written in the Way of Kings directly?

 

 

I didn't mean literally cheating, but Kal didn't find the Words by himself. Both Shallan and Ren had in-world WoK available to them, which is arguably the foundation of the Radiants' philosophy and conveys very similar ideas to the First Oath. While we can't know for sure about Shallan (her parents were obviously more aware than the average citizen), Ren could have very well found the Words on his own. Actually, I'm surprised Dalinar didn't, he basically has the whole book memorized.

 

 

 

Renarin lost control at the end of WoR, there is no telling if he always behaved this way when he had visions. The simple fact he managed to keep it a secret for weeks (while Dalinar couldn't in WoK) implies he may have had a certain control over them. The last bit at the oathgate was more him panicking, I think, then a side product of the visions.

 

I agree the textual evidence is not clear, but I have always assumed he was the one. He sneaked pass the guards using Illumination.

 

It's good to know I'm not the only one who thinks Ren used Illumination already, I haven't seen anyone discussing the possibility.

 

You're right, he lost control. But I assumed he never was in control when in vision of the future to begin with... Well, if he wasn't, someone would have caught him, no way he always got lucky. How could Ren's writing always match Dalinar's visions if Ren wasn't in control? It's more likely he had some sort of control, however I hadn't given it much thought. But that also doesn't feel right. What, Ren decided to write numbers on Dalinar's wall, while also believing the foresight was a curse and it was all in his head? Why would he willingly do that? The whole story is very weird. 

[maxal]

I didn't mean literally cheating, but Kal didn't find the Words by himself. Both Shallan and Ren had in-world WoK available to them, which is arguably the foundation of the Radiants' philosophy and conveys very similar ideas to the First Oath. While we can't know for sure about Shallan (her parents were obviously more aware than the average citizen), Ren could have very well found the Words on his own. Actually, I'm surprised Dalinar didn't, he basically has the whole book memorized.

 

But Dalinar knew the words.... At the end of WoR, he confronts the Stormfather and claims he knew the words... So yeah, he must have gotten them from WoK, but he didn't understand what they were for until the end of WoR. Renarin must have gotten them at the same place as Dalinar made sure his sons were being constantly read the book (Adolin probably yawned the whole time , but I wouldn't be surprised Renarin memorized most of it as well). He just ended up figuring what they were for much earlier then Dalinar.

 

 

It's good to know I'm not the only one who thinks Ren used Illumination already, I haven't seen anyone discussing the possibility.

 

You're right, he lost control. But I assumed he never was in control when in vision of the future to begin with... Well, if he wasn't, someone would have caught him, no way he always got lucky. How could Ren's writing always match Dalinar's visions if Ren wasn't in control? It's more likely he had some sort of control, however I hadn't given it much thought. But that also doesn't feel right. What, Ren decided to write numbers on Dalinar's wall, while also believing the foresight was a curse and it was all in his head? Why would he willingly do that? The whole story is very weird. 

 

There is a general assumption running around that Renarin has not have any help at all from his spren, has been left alone to figure things out and has not progressed at all in his Radianhood throughout WoR. The same general assumption believes he is unable to draw stormlight or to use his surges. I tend to disagree as I do not see Renarin as a plain helpless little boy, but a young man with a hidden depth who is not nearly as helpless as he makes it seen.

 

I feel most clues we have do points in a different direction. The writing of the glyph, unseen, strongly implies the use of Illumination. The screaming Blade confirms he has spoken oaths, which means he has access to his surges and stormlight. I do not know why he felt compel to write the countdown, but it is not hard to figure out when Dalinar will get visions: he gets them every time a highstorm hits. However, I do feel that if he were panicking each time and losing control, then someone would have seen him. We have seen Renarin during highstorms quite a few times and he never lost control. These visions of his must therefore happened at another time.

 

Let's not confuse the "all in his head" quote as well. He clearly states this in response to Dalinar asking about his screaming Blade. He did not imply the vision. He thought the fact he heard the Blade scream was due to himself. He probably linked it to Glys or something, which would fit the criteria of "in his head". I thought being bonded to Glys and receiving the visions was a curse until he managed to overcome this feeling.

 

I also think one of the reasons he asked to join Bridge 4 was because he suspected Kaladin was a Radiant as well.

Edited November 8, 2014 by maxal

[Aleksiel]

....

 

Didn't Kaladin and Shallan tell Dalinar the First Ideal? I believe they did. That's what I was referring to.

 

As for Ren, I think you're misunderstanding me. I don't question Ren using surges or bonding Glys. I find Ren's decision to write numbers on Dalinar's wall when Dalinar's on his own and in a vision to be odd, if we assume Ren was in control. Ren didn't try to talk his father into taking any action regarding the Parshendi or the everstorm. So what was he trying to achieve? 

[maxal]

Didn't Kaladin and Shallan tell Dalinar the First Ideal? I believe they did. That's what I was referring to.

 

I don't know... Perhaps... This part is unclear. It could be you are right. It could be he read them into WoK, but only understood their meaning after speaking with Kaladin and Shallan. However, I somehow doubt Dalinar had much opportunity to discuss with both of them and I also doubt they would have share such details with him.

 

 

As for Ren, I think you're misunderstanding me. I don't question Ren using surges or bonding Glys. I find Ren's decision to write numbers on Dalinar's wall when Dalinar's on his own and in a vision to be odd, if we assume Ren was in control. Ren didn't try to talk his father into taking any action regarding the Parshendi or the everstorm. So what was he trying to achieve? 

 

I think Renarin saw the everstorm as a finality and nothing could be done about it. He may have been trying to warn them, by writing a countdown, so they could perhaps prepare, but I believe he was convinced they would not prevail. Let's not forget visions of the future are forbidden according to the Vorin society so coming forward with them demanded a self-confidence and a courage Renarin did not possess at the time. He may have thought the best course of action was to indirectly post a warning to his family in the form of a countdown and parabolas, hoping they would comprehend.

 

I also believe the reason he panicked at the end was because he saw the vision coming true. Before that, he's had visions, but he may have been clinging to the hope they would turn out being false ones. When he saw them come to life, he despaired as his interpretation of the visions told him they would all die.

[Twenty@20]

It makes me shudder to think that Renarin knew the Everstorm coming since the beginning of WoR. I wonder what else he saw. Could he have the tragedy of Eshonai or mass transformation of Parshendi or the coming of Szeth.

Does he already know the outcome of Kholinar riots or the plans of Taravangian.

Future prediction is such a paradox. What is the use of knowing it, if the future can't be changed( the Everstorm couldn't be stopped ). And if the future is changed after the visions that means the visions are wrong.

Edited November 8, 2014 by Twenty@20

[maxal]

It makes me shudder to think that Renarin knew the Everstorm coming since the beginning of WoR. I wonder what else he saw. Could he have the tragedy of Eshonai or mass transformation of Parshendi or the coming of Szeth.

Does he already know the outcome of Kholinar riots or the plans of Taravangian.

Future prediction is such a paradox. What is the use of knowing it, if the future can't be changed( the Everstorm couldn't be stopped ). And if the future is changed after the visions that means the visions are wrong.

 

I do not think his visions are this precise. I think they are the must be similar to prophecy-like images, the kind that requires a certain dose of interpretation. They can also come true, but not in the way you think they will. Bottom line is I do not see them as direct predictions of the future, but as glimpses of a potential future based on a single large scale event that may be inevitable.

 

I think Renarin does not understand how to decipher his visions just yet. The future is not written yet.... The everstorm may arrive, but how everyone will fare upon meeting it is not yet settled. That is the mistake he made, I believe. He thought everything would happened just like in the vision, but it is not how it works.

[happyman]

It makes me shudder to think that Renarin knew the Everstorm coming since the beginning of WoR. I wonder what else he saw. Could he have the tragedy of Eshonai or mass transformation of Parshendi or the coming of Szeth.

Does he already know the outcome of Kholinar riots or the plans of Taravangian.

Future prediction is such a paradox. What is the use of knowing it, if the future can't be changed( the Everstorm couldn't be stopped ). And if the future is changed after the visions that means the visions are wrong.

 

I think, given what we've seen of foresight elsewhere in the Cosmere, that the future is not set in stone and that this isn't a paradox.  As long as intelligent creatures can respond to the future visions, they can be changed inasmuch as said creatures actually have control.  Inevitable things, I suspect, are often things that are being pushed by other things with more power.

 

Thus if the Everstorm was inevitable, it was because Odium was pushing and had far more power than the other intelligent players, not because of any inherent pre-ordination paradoxes.

[Trip]

If Adolin becomes another Knight Radiant, then there would be three in the Kholin family, which is unlikely. However, I could see him becoming Renarin's squire.

 

In Adolin's dual, Renarin tries to help him. In the warcamp Renarin is disliked and people think he is strange, but Adolin sees nothing wrong with him and defends him when he can.

 

In the next book Renarins is going to have a hard time fitting in to Vorin society due to the fact that he can see the future.

 

I think Adolin will beome Renarin's Squire. Adolin would be out of place as Dalinar's Squire because he killed Sadeas. He would also be out of place as Kaladin's Squire because of Kaladin's views on lighteyes. Because of Adolin's loyalty to Renarin and the brotherly love between the two, he would be a perfect match as Renarin's Squire.

 

Adolin has always protected his brother. As Renarin's squire he would be able to continue doing so.

[Kyats Rani]

If Adolin becomes another Knight Radiant, then there would be three in the Kholin family, which is unlikely. However, I could see him becoming Renarin's squire.

 

In Adolin's dual, Renarin tries to help him. In the warcamp Renarin is disliked and people think he is strange, but Adolin sees nothing wrong with him and defends him when he can.

 

In the next book Renarins is going to have a hard time fitting in to Vorin society due to the fact that he can see the future.

 

I think Adolin will beome Renarin's Squire. Adolin would be out of place as Dalinar's Squire because he killed Sadeas. He would also be out of place as Kaladin's Squire because of Kaladin's views on lighteyes. Because of Adolin's loyalty to Renarin and the brotherly love between the two, he would be a perfect match as Renarin's Squire.

 

Adolin has always protected his brother. As Renarin's squire he would be able to continue doing so.

 

Actually, that would make four Kholin Radiants (Dalinar, Renarin, Jasnah and Adolin).

 

Adolin could possibly become Renarin's squire, but I don't believe so. It's said that some orders don't have squires at all. We don't know which ones, but I think that those non-military ones wouldn't have squires. Not all of the Radiants were warriors (I believe Jasnah said so). Some of the orders were back-up or kind of personal relations or something like that. Scholars, etc. Truthwatchers, Lightweavers and propably Elsecallers in my opinion are just those. They don't need squires. Now, those who fight on the battlefield - they need squires. Windrunners, Dustbringers, Stonewards and so on. I admit, Adolin being Renarin's squire would be great in terms of their brotherly love, but I simply doubt that Renarin will have squires at all.

 

But he definitely wouldn't be Dalinar's squire, that one is obvious. Though I wouldn't rule out Kaladin. His opinion on lighteyes is changing, at least on some of them, Adolin being a good example. By the end of WoR they went from people unable to stand each other to almost friends. If this continues (and I hope it does) they will be best friends before the books end. I'm not saying that Adolin will be Kal's squire (he has the whole Bridge 4 and possibly other bridges as well), but I think the possibility does exist. Same for Renarin - if his order has squires in the first place, I think Adolin would do well.

 

Yet still, I hope for Adolin to be our Dustbringer... But of course, every opinion is as good as the others

[maxal]

If Adolin becomes another Knight Radiant, then there would be three in the Kholin family, which is unlikely. However, I could see him becoming Renarin's squire.

 

In Adolin's dual, Renarin tries to help him. In the warcamp Renarin is disliked and people think he is strange, but Adolin sees nothing wrong with him and defends him when he can.

 

In the next book Renarins is going to have a hard time fitting in to Vorin society due to the fact that he can see the future.

 

I think Adolin will beome Renarin's Squire. Adolin would be out of place as Dalinar's Squire because he killed Sadeas. He would also be out of place as Kaladin's Squire because of Kaladin's views on lighteyes. Because of Adolin's loyalty to Renarin and the brotherly love between the two, he would be a perfect match as Renarin's Squire.

 

Adolin has always protected his brother. As Renarin's squire he would be able to continue doing so.

 

Doubtful.

 

As far as we know, squires need to embody their knights attribute, they need to want to follow them and Adolin is not a follower, nor does he have much in common with his brother. Renarin is a Truthwatcher embodying learning and giving. Adolin does not follow those virtues nor could I see him ever doing so.

 

Renarin may have a hard time or he may not depending on how forward the Kohlin family will be with his abilities. I tend to consider Renarin worst days as behind him as he is bond to finally find a way to be useful. I am not convinced he will be ostracized or look down upon because of his visions as the probability of him speaking about them to the outside world is quite small.

 

Adolin cannot be Dalinar's squire because he follows his father not because he truly believes in his way of thinking, but because he loves him. Quite a different scenario then the bridgemen who admire and genuinely want to follow Kaladin's lead.

 

Being Kaladin's squire is even less a possibility as it would require Adolin to accept Kaladin as his superior and his leader. I do not see that happening in a million life. There is also the fact Adolin clearly belongs to Cultivation and not Honor.

 

The fact we already three Kohlin radiants does not preclude Adolin from becoming one nor does it make him less likely to be one. Being a Radiant is all about your ability to embodied certain attributes, it is not about your family name nor is it about the number of Radiant there already is in your family.

 

 

But he definitely wouldn't be Dalinar's squire, that one is obvious. Though I wouldn't rule out Kaladin. His opinion on lighteyes is changing, at least on some of them, Adolin being a good example. By the end of WoR they went from people unable to stand each other to almost friends. If this continues (and I hope it does) they will be best friends before the books end. I'm not saying that Adolin will be Kal's squire (he has the whole Bridge 4 and possibly other bridges as well), but I think the possibility does exist. Same for Renarin - if his order has squires in the first place, I think Adolin would do well.

 

Yet still, I hope for Adolin to be our Dustbringer... But of course, every opinion is as good as the others

 

You see Adolin following Kaladin's lead??? Adolin is the war general and the strategist: he is not the protector of the weak and the oppressed. He protects, yes, but those he loves dearly.

[sun tzaro]

 I am not convinced he will be ostracized or look down upon because of his visions as the probability of him speaking about them to the outside world is quite small.

 

I disagree completely.

 

 

"I can see it," Renarin answered feverishly, his voice echoing in the chamber. Ardents who had been studying part of the murals looked up at him. "I can see the future itself. Why? Why, Almighty? Why have you cursed me so?" He screamed a pleading cry, then stood and cracked something against the wall. A rock? Where had he gotten it? He gripped the thing in a gauntleted hand and began to write.

 

Shocked, Shallan took a step toward him. A sequence of numbers?

 

All zeroes.

 

"It's come," Renarin whispered. "It's come, it's come, it's come. We're dead. We're dead..."

 

 

Dalinar couldn't hide his fits and he knew exactly when they would come.

 

Do you really think there is any way whatsoever that Renarin will be able to hide his abilities? He doesn't know when his fits will come on, let alone if any of them will leave him in as much horrified mania as this one did. And he just screamed that he could see the future in front of a bunch of ardents. 

 

When Shallan begins to siphon through the texts stored in Urithiru, she will enlist the help of ardents in translating them. The history of the Radiants will be known again. The abilities of the Truthwatchers will become known.

 

There is only one way that the ardentia will react to finding out that a Radiant can see the future. Sanderson has a ripe conflict in front of him when it comes to Renarin and Vorinism. There's no way he wouldn't take advantage of it.

 

I'm still flabbergasted that anyone can read this line

 

 

"I can see the future itself. Why? Why, Almighty? Why have you cursed me so?"

 

and think that Renarin has a bright dandy future hanging out with bro-bro and dad and saving the world from evil while everyone cheers him on.

 

I agree with Trip. Renarin has a dark path ahead of him, and it would be interesting in terms of a sort of role-reversal to see Adolin in the shadow of Renarin.

Edited November 16, 2014 by sun tzaro

[maxal]

I disagree completely.

 

 

Dalinar couldn't hide his fits and he knew exactly when they would come.

 

Do you really think there is any way whatsoever that Renarin will be able to hide his abilities? He doesn't know when his fits will come on, let alone if any of them will leave him in as much horrified mania as this one did. And he just screamed that he could see the future in front of a bunch of ardents. .

 

Except that Renarin has been hiding his abilities for weeks. Nobody saw anything or guessed anything until he came forward with it. Even after the events at the oathgates, people still did not think much of it as it came as a surprise to Dalinar that Renarin is a Radiant as well. If everyone had freaked on it as you suggest, don't you think Dalinar of all people would know about it? But he didn't. Much was happening. Renarin is seen as a weak boy. Ardent probably thought he was just loosing his mind. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

His lost of control at the end was probably linked to the fact he was seeing his vision coming to life: before that he must have been entertaining the hopes it would just be a fantasy or a trick of his mind. Upon seeing it, he lost it, but he never lost before as he initially got his visions. If he did, it was not notice by anyone whereas Dalinar failed to hide his visions.

 

 

and think that Renarin has a bright dandy future hanging out with bro-bro and dad and saving the world from evil while everyone cheers him on.

 

I agree with Trip. Renarin has a dark path ahead of him, and it would be interesting in terms of a sort of role-reversal to see Adolin in the shadow of Renarin.

 

I do think Renarin's future is much brighter then you think. He finally has a purpose, what he has been craving for. I believe you overestimate the impact of his revelation will have on the outside world. You assume it will become common knowledge he is having visions of the future whereas everything points toward his family keeping this fact a secret. They did try to contain Dalinar's episodes, but they were quite vivid and such thing became impossible. Renarin's visions? A different matter. No matter how they occurred, they are not as disturbing as Dalinar's as NOBODY noticed a thing and they have been around for WEEKS if not more.

 

I never said people would go on cheer on him, but people tend not to care about him or to notice him, at all. It will probably remain this way as I doubt the Kohlins will readily put Renarin in a position where he might encounter such opposition. The boy is sheltered and now has powers that will make him feel more useful.

 

I also think you underestimate the moment where Renarin finally come forward with his ability. It is a defining moment as, for the first time, he is seen accepting it. He embraced it, at last, so he is giving him a chance to grow with it. If the Ardentia were to find out, they would probably react badly, but to what avail? Renarin is Dalinar's son: he is protected. Nobody can get to him. People may look down on him? They already do. 

 

Adolin being is Renarin's shadow? I don't see it. They are two very different persons with a different skill set. I see Adolin having trouble dealing with all that is happening, but feeling reduced by his brother like Dalinar felt towards Galivar? No. I just don't see that. Based on his character so far, he's more likely to be proud of his brother, but very uncomfortable about the vision of the future aspect of his powers. He would not reject his brother nor feel reduced by it, but he may feel he is not up to the task because of other reasons.

[sun tzaro]

Except that Renarin has been hiding his abilities for weeks. Nobody saw anything or guessed anything until he came forward with it. Even after the events at the oathgates, people still did not think much of it as it came as a surprise to Dalinar that Renarin is a Radiant as well. If everyone had freaked on it as you suggest, don't you think Dalinar of all people would know about it? But he didn't. Much was happening. Renarin is seen as a weak boy. Ardent probably thought he was just loosing his mind. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Dalinar and friends managed to hide the countdown on the walls, sure, I'll give you that. But Renarin isn't in control during his episodes. He won't be able to hide them if he doesn't know when they are going to happen. Sooner or later, he will be discovered.

 

Renarin is a Radiant now. His every move will be watched and remembered. He may still be a weak boy on the inside, but that's not what the rest of the world will see him as.

 

 

 

I also think you underestimate the moment where Renarin finally come forward with his ability. It is a defining moment as, for the first time, he is seen accepting it. He embraced it, at last, so he is giving him a chance to grow with it. 

 

 

Hmmm. Let's take a look.

 

 

"That makes three of us. Windrunner, Bondsmith, Lightweaver."

 

"Four," a voice said from the shadows of the stairwell. Renarin stepped up into the lit room. He looked at them, then shrank back.

 

"Son?" Dalinar asked. 

 

Renarin remained in the darkness, looking down.

 

Finally coming forward with his ability? He looked at them, then shrank back. Seen as accepting it? Renarin remained in the darkness, looking down. Embraced it? Embraced it?

 

I'd quote the part where he shivers when Dalinar grabs him the shoulder, but I'm getting a palpable sense of deja vu.

 

 

 

If the Ardentia were to find out, they would probably react badly, but to what avail? Renarin is Dalinar's son: he is protected. Nobody can get to him. People may look down on him? They already do. 

 

The will of the Ardentia is irrelevant now? Getting a strong sense of deja vu. Again. 

 

 

 

Vorinism is central in Alethkar culture, and in the culture of the other four Vorin kingdoms. It is a religion that nearly everyone follows. Nearly everyone has a Calling, and nearly everyone worships the Almighty and the ten Heralds.

 

It is not a religion that will be easily dislodged. Vorin culture forbids men to learn how to read, and doesn't encourage women, who can read, to read anything of depth (as evidenced by how Shallan, in the most academic city on Roshar, has to fight pretty hard to get any real reading material).  

 

In the five kingdoms, the scholarly class near exclusively consists of the Ardentia—Vorin monks. Jasnah speaks with wariness about the sway that the Devotaries hold in Khabranth, and presumably much of the rest of the world. Jasnah herself has been ostracized from scholarly society because of her status as a heretic.

 

Ardents operate the soulcasters. All figures of political importance, from Highprinces like Dalinar, to minor lords like Shallan's father, are reliant on the regular use of the services of Ardents.

 

Vorinism is not going to evaporate merely because a few soldiers who can glow and fly around have showed up. If Vorinism falls, expect a conflict on the level of the War of Loss. 

 

Merely by being Knights Radiant, Dalinar and friends are already drawn into contention with Vorinism. Those differences at least have a chance of being reconciled, if Dalinar can convince the leaders of the world that the KRs were just misunderstood, or that they are necessary to save the world from the Voidbringers. 

 

Foretelling the future, however, will never be accepted. Prophecy is said to be of the Voidbringers. It is what led to the Hierocracy. It goes against a fundamental tenet of the Vorin faith, a tenet that Sanderson has brought up and emphasized time and again. 

 

Understand that the Hierocracy happened before the Day of Recreance. It is very possible that the idea of foretelling the future became hated while the Radiants were still around.

 

Prophecy is a defining ability of the Truthwatchers. It will, guaranteed, be one of the things that defines Renarin. And there is absolutely no way, that, after it has been established that Vorinism completely repudiates soothsaying, and after it has been established that even the Truthwatchers of the past hid what they saw, that Renarin will be accepted for what he is.

 

He will either hide his visions, and suffer them alone, or he will share them and receive suspicion and hatred in return. 

 

Edited November 16, 2014 by sun tzaro