Shallan's Relationship

[blys]

I don't like love triangles, and I don't like this one. I want Adolin, and I think it makes more sense. 

 

The whole triangle thing was just thrown in there, and unlike the poster above, it was not done smoothly or subtly. The big thing is that Sanderson is normally really good at stuff like this, so... IDK. Could it happen? Sure, but I think it would be a mistake to push this way more then just skimming the surface. It is not needed and would distract form the plot.

 

And could someone please tell me these hints BS throws out about their personalities meshing so well? Shallan is a sheltered wealthy girl who grew up away from much of society while Kal grew up in the middle of pain and suffering. While Kal has watch those he cared for die/suffer due to no fault of his own, Shallan has ended up having to kill members of her family/some that she cared for and trusted, they are both broken, but not similarly or comparably. Kal does not try to hide his disdain for society, and is moody/withdrawn while Shallan is outwardly friendly and 'proper,' but hides her true self behind this well-constructed lie. Yes, is some ways they are opposites, but I do not see then really falling for each other as more then just a crush/ romantic excursion. I could see them starting something, but eventually falling apart and Shallan going back to Adalin. 

 

As for the Kal/Jasnah stuff, I don't really see it happening, but I think the big thing is that they would bond over their shared dislike of everyone else. Seems weak, but it could happen I guess? 

 

Edit: I'm tired and can't think, so I am adding to this.

 

Also, look at what drove the other girlfriends from Adalin: jealousy and that whole 'walk' around camp searching for answers on the king's assassination. Shallan fits into those well, she is a very big player in this whole thing, and wants to work, not take meaningless 'walks' around camp in her chariot. She is independent and does not seem like the jealous type (didn't Adolin mention that was stuff he wanted in a long-term girlfriend?).

 

Furthermore, if Shallan leaves Adalin for Kal, I would be scared for Adolin as a character. Any relationship between Adalin and Kal would be shattered and I could see it as a point for Adalin to 'go mad'/turn evil over the slight. Maybe this is what BS wants, and if so it might just be want we see, but I don't really see that happening.   

 

As for the stuff in the chasm, I chalk it up to the fact that both obviously have feelings for each other, and they were stuck in a freakin' chasm thinking they might very well die soon. It would be incredibly awkward that they just sit there not talking, and so they talked. Thing is that they really don't have much in common other then being 'broken,' Shallan being the sheltered girl living in near-isolation and Kal being the ex-slave who has been to hell and back, and who loaths lighteyes. 

Edited March 16, 2014 by blys

[Velnica]

If Shallan and Adolin get together now, it would be for all the wrong reasons. Adolin just wanted a girl that wasn't complicated, but he has yet to actively pry Shallan's outward persona open (while Kaladin sure did). Adolin has a lot of maturing to do before he will ever get with Shallan. Similarly Shallan wanted Adolin's connection to save her family. Though now that she is part of the Ghostbloods I dunno how this aspect would play out.

 

They both like each other in a friends, maybe more sort of way. But until they actually figure out WHY they want to be with the other one, I don't see it happening. Especially because their story I think is diverging fast.

 

There was a much more natural connection between Kal and Shallan, shared pain and all that. And that's why I believe in this one a lot more, because in a relationship you shouldn't be fake to each other.

[ssd6]

@DeployParchate

 

1) I think a big reason is that Jasnah and Kaladin are both favorite characters for a lot of people, so they hope to put them together.

 

2) Kaladin is the only male lead at the moment that appears to have the scholarly back ground and thought process to keep up with her. That's not me calling anyone else dumb or anything like that, but Kaladin was insinuated as being a genius by his father and we saw how quickly he picked things up when Shallan was studying parts of the plains. 

 

3) Jasnah admires persistance and the ability to structure an argument logically with reason. Is there anyone more persistent than Kaladin? He can definitely present an argument logically, when he's not clouded by resentment or his past.  I mean he grew up having debates with is mother all the time. 

 

4) Jasnah doesn't care for a lot of societies rules, like only women being allowed to read. She'd probably respect Kaladin for being one of the few male characters so far in the series that can read and write on his own. Plus it means she doesn't have to sit around being his secretary and he probably wouldn't care for her to do so.

 

5) Jasnah doesn't appear to be the type of person that dislikes or looks down on dark eyes. I'd assume Kaladin would appreciate her blunt honesty on the subject and its doubtful that he'd see her as being dishonest on the subject.

 

6) Both of them appear to have huge issues with being "beholden" to someone else. Kaladin would be the last person to force roles or rules on someone else that is supposed to be his equal. 

 

7) Jasnah appears to dislike men, especially the "dishonorable"  type (I'm inferring dishonorable from her hate of the thieves in the alley). How many male characters in the books have been anywhere near as honorable as Kaladin?  

 

8) Jasnah considers Dalinar possibly the best man she's ever known, Kaladin might as well be a younger, more scholarly version of him (more immature as well)  and Sanderson has shown similarities between the two on quite a few occasions. 

 

9) Kaladin already breaks a lot of the preconceived notions of Alethi society. 

- First dark eyes captain

- He can read and write as a male

- He gives titles based out of respect, not because of the title society has given someone. 

- Became a Knight Radiant while being a dark eyes

- Had 100s of bridgemen and turned a large number of them into soldiers. 

 

10) I doubt he'd care or try to change her thoughts on society/religion and so forth. He's not the type to stick to how society should perceive people and I think that's apart of what Jasnah fears in marriage. She doesn't want to have to change herself to fit with her betrothed and present someone she is not because her husband wants her too. 

 

11) Jasnah has a lot of freedom at the moment to study and search the globe for her scholarly pursuits and marriage would tie her down to another duty. I'd put money Kaladin would happily go with her to learn about the world too, he's shown himself to be the type to enjoy learning and willing to work hard to understand something new (his powers). 

 

A lot of this stuff is based on assumptions and obviously needs more fleshing out when the two of the meet.  However, after seeing how Kaladin and Shallan get along, I'm guessing that this will turn into more of a Jasnah accepting Kaladin as the person courting Shallan or something along those lines. 

Edited March 16, 2014 by ssd6

[Seloun]

And could someone please tell me these hints BS throws out about their personalities meshing so well? Shallan is a sheltered wealthy girl who grew up away from much of society while Kal grew up in the middle of pain and suffering. While Kal has watch those he cared for die/suffer due to no fault of his own, Shallan has ended up having to kill members of her family/some that she cared for and trusted, they are both broken, but not similarly or comparably. Kal does not try to hide his disdain for society, and is moody/withdrawn while Shallan is outwardly friendly and 'proper,' but hides her true self behind this well-constructed lie. Yes, is some ways they are opposites, but I do not see then really falling for each other as more then just a crush/ romantic excursion. I could see them starting something, but eventually falling apart and Shallan going back to Adalin. 

 

Er, Shallan has had to do the whole 'watch those (she) cared for die/suffer due to no fault of (her) own' thing. That's practically the defining feature of her flashback arc. Her flashbacks are spent trying to make up for the fact that her father takes out his anger on the staff and her siblings while leaving her alone (and later, explicitly punishing others when she disobeys him). It's spelled out almost literally in those terms:

 

 

She turned and looked to him. “The crushing guilt,” she said, “of being powerless. Of wishing they’d hurt you instead of those around you. Of screaming and scrambling and hating as those you love are ruined, popped like a boil. And you have to watch their joy seeping away while you can’t do anything. They break the ones you love , and not you. And you plead. Can’t you just beat me instead?”

 

“Yes,” he whispered.

 

Shallan nodded, holding his eyes . “Yes. It would be nice if nobody in the world knew of those things, Kaladin Stormblessed. I agree. With everything I have.”

 

He saw it in her eyes. The anguish , the frustration. The terrible nothing that clawed inside and sought to smother her. She knew. It was there, inside. She had been broken.

The evidence for an attraction between Shallan and Kaladin has been covered in (arguably painful) detail in this thread, but the ultimate passages are near the end of the book, as the armies are moving out for the final assault. These passages cover how, by the end of the book, Kaladin and Shallan view one another:

 

 

She looked gorgeous. Kaladin was willing to admit it, if only to himself. Brilliant red hair, ready smile. She said something clever; Kaladin could almost hear the words. He waited, hoping that she’d look toward him, meet his eyes across the short distance.

 

She didn’t. She rode on, and Kaladin felt like an utter fool. A part of him wanted to hate Adolin for holding her attention, but he found that he couldn’t. The truth was, he liked Adolin. And those two were good for one another. They fit.

 

Perhaps Kaladin could hate that.

 

He grinned, Shardplate helm hanging from his saddle so as to not mess up his hair. She waited for him to add a quip to hers, but he didn’t.

 

That was all right. She liked Adolin as he was. He was kind , noble, and genuine. It didn’t matter that he wasn’t brilliant or . . . or whatever else Kaladin was. She couldn’t even define it. So there.

 

Passionate, with an intense, smoldering resolve. A leashed anger that he used, because he had dominated it. And a certain tempting arrogance. Not the haughty pride of a highlord. Instead, the secure, stable sense of determination that whispered that no matter who you were— or what you did— you could not hurt him. Could not change him.

 

He was. Like the wind and rocks were.

 

Shallan completely missed what Adolin said next. She blushed. “What was that?”

 

Kaladin and Shallan are among the most clever individuals in the series. Not a lot of people, besides each other, can really keep up with them intellectually or in wit. There are a few other candidates, however...

 

 

And to wrap things up, just to satisfy my curiosity, can someone provide a nice response as to why they think Kal and Jasnah would make for a good match?  I see this argument made many times, but for the life of me, I just cannot see this.  What are others seeing that I am not?

 

One of the people who can keep up intellectually with Shallan (and by transitivity, Kaladin) happens to be Jasnah. Jasnah is perhaps the most intelligent and educated individual in the series (barring 'legendary' individuals like the Heralds and super-Taravangian). Kaladin is probably the most intelligent and educated male individual in the series (with the same caveats). I think this was a much stronger possibility (in relative terms) pre-WoR, since we didn't have as much information about the depths of Shallan's character. I would imagine the relationship that would be more likely between Kaladin and Jasnah would be more like the relationship between Shallan and Jasnah (clever student, wise teacher).

[DeployParachute]

ssd6 & Seloun,

 

Thanks for elaborating on the possibilties of Kaladin and Jasnah ship for me.  I certainly can see more of the possible attractions that could occur between the characters as a result of their personalities.  Almost so that I may be persuaded to "jump ship" if mine were to run afoul of an unexpected plot twist.  Though ssd6:

 

 

9) Kaladin already breaks a lot of the preconceived notions of Alethi society. 

- First dark eyes captain

- He can read and write as a male

- He gives titles based out of respect, not because of the title society has given someone. 

- Became a Knight Radiant while being a dark eyes

- Had 100s of bridgemen and turned a large number of them into soldiers. 

 

I thought it was canon that Kaladin could only read/write glyphs, which is not so uncommon a trait among Alethi men (especially of lighteyed rank)?

 

And blys,  I appreciate your responses, you certainly give me more to think about with regards to other's perception of how Brandon has handled the feelings of these three individuals.  I did want to inquire further to your comments below though...

 

And could someone please tell me these hints BS throws out about their personalities meshing so well? Shallan is a sheltered wealthy girl who grew up away from much of society while Kal grew up in the middle of pain and suffering. While Kal has watch those he cared for die/suffer due to no fault of his own, Shallan has ended up having to kill members of her family/some that she cared for and trusted, they are both broken, but not similarly or comparably. Kal does not try to hide his disdain for society, and is moody/withdrawn while Shallan is outwardly friendly and 'proper,' but hides her true self behind this well-constructed lie. Yes, is some ways they are opposites, but I do not see then really falling for each other as more then just a crush/ romantic excursion. I could see them starting something, but eventually falling apart and Shallan going back to Adalin. 

 

 

You go into a lot of detail comparing Kaladin and Shallan's different backgrounds and their level of "brokenness", and then stipulate that they would not fall for each other further than a crush/romantic excursion.  You also acknowledge that Shallan is outwardly friendly and proper, but is hiding her true self.  I do want to poitn out that the book clearly establishes that Kaladin sees through this easily (or at least when compared to Adolin), and in fact he is the only person other than Jasnah that she has confided much truth to.  So if this to you constitutes only a surface level crush, could you expand on why you think Adolin's background and the interactions we've seen between him and Shallan indicate that they have a better chance of going deeper than what you feel Kaladin and Shallan could achieve?  Just curious as to what your thoughts are...

 

Don't get me wrong.  I like Adolin as a character.  He is entertaining and intriguing to read.  He is, however, in his current state not a good match for Shallan.  I am basing this off of my belief that his interests: dueling, warfare, fashion etc don't seem to be things that would be intriguing to Shallan outside of what typical Alethi society would consider ideal in a married couple.  Those certainly aren't the defining characteristics of his character, but I would think a good relationship would be founded on shared interests and in Shallan's case: intellect and wit.  It is on that level that I think Kaladin currently fits her better, though I would never rule out the possibility of someone else entering the mix and making this whole argument moot.  Also, I feel that Adolin has a lot of potential for growth, and as has been mentioned before, the pain of heartbreak can take a character down a lot of paths (good or bad).  I would much rather read that kind of story than one in which Shallan and Adolin stay in a relationship that does nothing to challenge them or force them to grow.

 

Last thought, then bedtime:  The fact that every character in WoR who interact with Adolin and Shallan is telling themselves that they "fit" this early in the story is a big red flag to me that they will not ultimately end up together.  So I feel comfortable in saying Adolin and Shallan definitely not ending up together by end of series.  Kaladin and Shallan...only maybe.

Edited March 16, 2014 by DeployParachute

[Seloun]

I thought it was canon that Kaladin could only read/write glyphs, which is not so uncommon a trait among Alethi men (especially of lighteyed rank)?

 

Yeah, Kaladin is only capable of reading/writing glyphs, and not the women's script; there's probably quite a few references to this but one easy one is where he's holding the spanreed communication between Navani and Jasnah upside down:

 

 

Kaladin hesitated, then took the sheet. He looked it over, but obviously couldn’t tell that he was holding it upside down. It was one of the written communications between Jasnah and her mother, arranging for the causal. Communicated via spanreed, there would be two copies— the one that had been written on Jasnah’s side, and the one on Brightness Navani’s side.

 

As a complete aside, it appears that Kaladin and Shallan were in the same slave wagon with Tvlakv:

 

Kaladin sat with his back to the corner of the cage, looking down. The floor planks in front of him were splintered, as if someone had dug at them with nothing but his fingernails. The splintered section was stained dark where the dry grey wood had soaked up blood. A futile, delusional attempt at escape.

 

Shallan frowned, sitting back against the bars on the side of the wagon. Beside her, a long line of scratches on the floor looked like they’d been made by fingernails. As if one of the slaves had tried, in a fit of madness, to claw his way to freedom.

 

As far as I can tell we don't really find out what happens to the wagon. She leaves it behind when entering the camps for the first time, with the intent of getting her men to pick it up later if it's still there, but I don't think it gets referenced again. We might end up seeing the wagon later, though Gaz sands down the scratches, which may make identifying it difficult.

 

Edit - added quote about upside down note

Edited March 16, 2014 by Seloun

[KasA97]

I think we are all assuming that all three of these characters will survive. Sanderson has said several times that he does not mind killing off characters. So we have to consider the fact that Shallan, Kaladin, Adolin, or any combination of the three could be dead soon.

[loke13]

I think we are all assuming that all three of these characters will survive. Sanderson has said several times that he does not mind killing off characters. So we have to consider the fact that Shallan, Kaladin, Adolin, or any combination of the three could be dead soon.

Could but doubtful at least for Kaladin and Shallan still have quite a lot of potential as far as character development goes. I doubt see either of them kicking the bucket until after Book 5.

[Jeiel]

Not contributing much here, but Jasnah is thirty-plus. Beautiful, of course, but has a matronly air. Kaladin is twenty...

 

If Jasnah's personality gets fleshed out as having womanly feelings after all when she gets her first look at a glowing, floating young man... then that'd be a very interesting read.

[Confused]

If opposites attract, Windrunners and Lightweavers are at the opposing ends of a central axis in the KR chart. Shalladin: its inevitable!

[Chasm Climber]

So I don't think anyone has brought this up yet.  On page 513 with the shard plate art pretty much ends the discussion over which way Shallan will go  .  

 

Shallan has drawn Adolin in his shardplate, he is the one in Ironstance in the lower left.  Right above that she has him with face plate open and "SIGH" written under it.  Of course the kicker that seals the deal is that she double underlined "sigh."  If it had been single underline then I could see her leaving Adolin for Kaladin, but not with the big double underline. 

 

On a real note I'm not sure which way she'll go, but I sure hate love triangles.  First read I thought Adolin for sure.  Second read through I leaned more towards Kaladin.

[dhazellouise]

So I don't think anyone has brought this up yet.  On page 513 with the shard plate art pretty much ends the discussion over which way Shallan will go  .  

 

Shallan has drawn Adolin in his shardplate, he is the one in Ironstance in the lower left.  Right above that she has him with face plate open and "SIGH" written under it.  Of course the kicker that seals the deal is that she double underlined "sigh."  If it had been single underline then I could see her leaving Adolin for Kaladin, but not with the big double underline. 

 

The drawing that Shallan did  does not imply that Shallan will end up with Adolin just because she wrote something in it with a double underline. It only means that Shallan finds Adolin attractive in a physical sense.

 

If this were in real life, imagine Shallan as the nerd, wity girl while Adolin is the popular jock in school. Shallan is admiring Adolin's physical prowess as well as his physique, and lets not forget about Adolin's handsome features.

 

[dhazellouise]

Adolin, the theory that she was faking it with him is false to me, she tried to he what she thought he wanted but didn't know how to pull it off and it worked in her favor. There is an attraction to Kal but nothing more. She even talked kal intonseeing him in a better light.

I also don't see Kal being the type to take her away from adolin as they had a serious bromance happening and syl would would not be down for that either.

I think Kal and Jasnah make a good pairing better then kal and shallan for sure.

 

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you entirely. Yes, Shallan did try her best to act as someone expected of her station, a lighteyed woman. Adolin does not know that Shallan had a hidden agenda most of the time when she was with Adolin. Shallan nearly spend most of her time lying and deceiving Adolin into getting what she wanted like taking her to the platue to investigate Urithiru, another one was so that Shallan could talked to Navani by manipulating Adolin into thinking that it was an innocent and scholarly request on her part. I understand that Shallan just doing it so that she can immediately solve the mysteries of Urithiru and save the world, but lets be honest, Shallan remained tight-lipped even after they came to Urithiru. She did not tell Adolin what truly happened to her as was shown in the quote below.

 

Chapter 87 (The Riddens)

Several scribes passed by, bringing paper to draw out maps of Adolin’s exploration. They bobbed quick, uncomfortable bows to Shallan and called her “Brightness Radiant.” She still hadn’t talked at length with Adolin about what had happened to her.

 

So do you think its good for their relationship if Shallan spends most of her time lying and deceiving? Shallan did not confide to Adolin what she was doing. I think she will continue to do so in the next book because she has her duty and she is pretty good at pretending to be someone else she is not. She is good at weaving disguises. I also think that it is good that Adolin is not so observant, and as what Shallan said "mentally direct" to notice anything, especially when it comes to deception and women for that matter.

 

Kaladin would not do anything to steal Shallan from Adolin. Kaladin would probably pretend that he is not attracted to Shallan in the next book. And the bromance between Kaladin and Adolin? I wouldn't call it "serious" yet. Kaladin is still warming up to Adolin. Kaladin finally accepted Adolin's act of friendship when he told Shallan when they were still in chasm, that he was sorry for treating Adolin that way and Adolin was a "good man" or something along those lines. I would not call it serious. The "serious bromance" would probably happened when both Adolin and Kaladin finally treat each other as friends without any bias in Kaladin's part.

 

And lastly, the possibility of Kaladin and Jasnah happening is like 25%. I don't know...I never read anything from most of BS's books of a romance between a younger man and an older woman together. Kaladin is like 20 and Jasnah is like 29 y.o. I've noticed that when BS writes a romance. The characters is mostly is near in age or the guy is kinda old and the woman is younger. Not the other way around. I think BS would stick to his ideal sense of romance? Writers tend to do that, especially BS since I noticed that most of his books are surprisingly alike in so many ways. His ideas from other books seeps into his other books. I don't think Kaladin and Jasnah are going end up together or even have some kind of romance. Most people just like Kaladin and Jasnah to end up together because they just want to.

 

But if BS is going to write about them, then I'm not looking forward to it at all.

[dhazellouise]

Sure, but I think it would be a mistake to push this way more then just skimming the surface. It is not needed and would distract form the plot.And could someone please tell me these hints BS throws out about their personalities meshing so well? Shallan is a sheltered wealthy girl who grew up away from much of society while Kal grew up in the middle of pain and suffering. While Kal has watch those he cared for die/suffer due to no fault of his own, Shallan has ended up having to kill members of her family/some that she cared for and trusted, they are both broken, but not similarly or comparably. Kal does not try to hide his disdain for society, and is moody/withdrawn while Shallan is outwardly friendly and 'proper,' but hides her true self behind this well-constructed lie. Yes, is some ways they are opposites, but I do not see then really falling for each other as more then just a crush/ romantic excursion. I could see them starting something, but eventually falling apart and Shallan going back to Adalin. 

 

Also, look at what drove the other girlfriends from Adalin: jealousy and that whole 'walk' around camp searching for answers on the king's assassination. Shallan fits into those well, she is a very big player in this whole thing, and wants to work, not take meaningless 'walks' around camp in her chariot. She is independent and does not seem like the jealous type (didn't Adolin mention that was stuff he wanted in a long-term girlfriend?).

 

Furthermore, if Shallan leaves Adalin for Kal, I would be scared for Adolin as a character. Any relationship between Adalin and Kal would be shattered and I could see it as a point for Adalin to 'go mad'/turn evil over the slight. Maybe this is what BS wants, and if so it might just be want we see, but I don't really see that happening.   

 

As for the stuff in the chasm, I chalk it up to the fact that both obviously have feelings for each other, and they were stuck in a freakin' chasm thinking they might very well die soon. It would be incredibly awkward that they just sit there not talking, and so they talked. Thing is that they really don't have much in common other then being 'broken,' Shallan being the sheltered girl living in near-isolation and Kal being the ex-slave who has been to calamity and back, and who loaths lighteyes. 

 

I am tempted to write another really really long thesis again in response to this. However, a lot of you would probably prefer to read a short response than a long one. Actually, I wrote a lot of explanations regarding the relationship between Kaladin, Adolin and Shallan. In exact detail with a lot of quotes put together. But I would rather not repeat that since it is a time-consuming feat.

 

I will start by saying that Kaladin and Shallan mesh so well because they are both contrasting characters. Not exactly opposite to the point that it would drive them apart, but they are opposite in a way that they balance each other out. They are kinda opposite when it comes to personality and in handling things, but when they are put together in the same place, they can create infinite possibilities in solving their problems like when they did in the chasm. They are not really opposite and not really alike but they are an equal sense of balance. They are similar because they have a strong desire to protect everyone they care about in their own way. They have went through a lot of hardship and they are both coping it in their own way. Because of this, they both understand each other immediately. They can see the person for what they truly are.

 

Kaladin hated the light-eyes and he tried to hate Shallan actually, but he could not. After the chasm scene, Kaladin admitted that he was attracted to Shallan and he even smiled when he thought of her during the weeping. Shallan also thought of Kaladin after the chasm. Shallan compared Adolin to Kaladin, and in my opinion, his description of Kaladin was better than Adolin. When Shallan described Adolin most of the time, it was mostly about Adolin's handsome features and some such, while Shallan often describe Kaladin's personality rather than Kaladin's physical attributes.

 

For example in this scene. Shallan describes Kaladin and Adolin, and its in italics! Its more than how she describes Adolin most of the time. Its even more than 2 sentences put together. She even drifted off space when she tried to describe Kaladin and did not even catch what Adolin was saying.

Chapter 77 (Trust)

He grinned, Shardplate helm hanging from his saddle so as to not mess up his hair. She waited for him to add a quip to hers, but he didn’t.

 

That was all right. She liked Adolin as he was. He was kind, noble, and genuine. It didn’t matter that he wasn’t brilliant or . . . or whatever else Kaladin was. She couldn’t even define it. So there.

 

Passionate, with an intense, smoldering resolve. A leashed anger that he used, because he had dominated it. And a certain tempting arrogance. Not the haughty pride of a highlord. Instead, the secure, stable sense of determination that whispered that no matter who you were—or what you did—you could not hurt him. Could not change him

 

He was. Like the wind and rocks were.

 

Shallan completely missed what Adolin said next. She blushed. “What was that?”

 

Shallan did not thought only once about Kaladin. But she thought about him twice during the entire expedition.

 

Here it is:

Chapter 78 (Contradictions)

To him, she was a subject of study. For a moment, she understood how Kaladin must have seen Shallan as she spoke of the chasmfiend. Admiring its beauty, the form of its creation, oblivious to the present reality of its danger.

 

 

Chapter 77 (Trust)

As the time passed and one day led into another, Shallan found the distraction of the book extremely welcome. The armies moved about as fast as a herd of sleepy chulls, and the scenery was actually quite boring, though she’d never admit that to Kaladin or Adolin, considering what she’d told them last time she was out here.

In this scene, Shallan mentions Kaladin first before Adolin. Why would she do that? Why mention Kaladin first before Adolin when Adolin  is her betrothed? Shouldn't she mention Adolin first or even mention Kaladin in the same breath as Adolin? Why would Shallan even mention Kaladin unless he is kinda important to her already? Why would she even do it if she still thinks that Kaladin is just a slave and a dark-eyed? Just think about it...Shallan doesn't care about what position you have in the society. She doesn't care about social standing at all.

 

You also mention that Adolin was trying to make Shallan jealous. Yes, Shallan might not get jealous easily but the way Adolin is doing is not good for their relationship. It is immature and Shallan doesn't like that kind of stuff especially when Adolin acts overprotective. Adolin still needs to develop maturely. If Adolin continues to act that way, it will drive Shallan away.

 

The book would be more interesting if the good guy would become a bad guy. BS always has a thing for forbidden love, or something like a love-hate relationship as was ingrained in most of his books. Like in Mistborn, between a Vin(skaa thief) and Elend(rich lord) or between the two characters in Elantris and Warbreaker, and lets not forget Steelheart. A romance would be more interesting and exciting if there are a lot of obstacles that they would have to go through. The romance would be a total BLAH if there are no obstacles that the two characters would have to face. It would just be way too boring, and BS's books are rarely boring.

 

And yes about the chasm, they might be in a near-death situation but I would also like to mention this, if they were in a near-death situation why would Shallan even tell Kaladin about her past? They could have talked about other things but why would they confide in each other about their pasts? Why would Shallan talked about killing her father? Shallan did it because she felt that Kaladin would understand. They probably think that they might die soon, so does that entirely mean that they have to spill each other's hearts out? Does it mean that they wanted someone to know about their past before they die? I don't think so.

 

Shallan asked Kaladin about his past, twice! The first time Shallan asked Kaladin to talk, Kaladin said something like this, "I'll talk about it later." The second time Shallan asked Kaladin, it was because they just wanted to drown out the thundering noises outside. They talked not because they think that they were about to die. They just talked because they want to forgot that they were facing a highstorm. They were both scared. Not dying. If they were about to die, BS would probably write something like this, "Since we are about to die, why don't we just tell each others secrets'' or something like that. Even so, Shallan would have never confided in Kaladin if she did not think that Kaladin was trust-worthy and would understand her. Shallan would have talked about other things and forgot about her past like she always does. But she sees something in Kaladin that made her talked about her past. If Shallan thinks that Kaladin was just a stranger stuck with her during the highstorm and in the chasm, I am certain that Shallan would have never told anything about her past. But after Kaladin told his story, I believe Shallan knew that Kaladin would accept her for what she did and what she had become.

Edited March 18, 2014 by dhazellouise

[Fobik]

From Kaladin and Shallan's frist interactions I have a dreadfull feeling they will end up together.  I dont want it to play out that way, its too obviously and over done.  But pretty sure it will unfortunatly.  Can usally tell who the couple will be by wich female the main character fights wtih.

[Guest Monster Energy]

I wouldn't mind Shallan and Hoid. It definitely wouldn't hurt my feelings to see Shallan popping up in other Cosmere books.

[dhazellouise]

I think Shallan and Kaladin may not end up together, but they're at least going to be together for a while.

They clearly both feel strongly for each other. Kaladin describes her as beautiful, opens up to her, and gets sullen when seeing her and Adolin together.  He also seems to respond to her presence in a similar way to how he did to Tien, in that even in the depths of his despair over losing Syl, she's able to make him smile and come out of his shell.

Shallan is noticing how her time with Adolin is less good than her time with Kaladin - she got distracted thinking about Kaladin when she "should" have been paying attention to Adolin, she tried to banter with Adolin like she had with Kaladin and found his response lacking, and again, she opened up to Kaladin very quickly.

However, there are a lot of conflicts that I think make it so that even if they're together, they're not storybook couple forever as soon as they decide to be together.

For one, Kaladin killed her older brother.  He knows it already, she doesn't.  When this gets revealed matters.  If Kaladin hides that he knew this, Shallan will probably feel thoroughly betrayed (it's not really in Kaladin's nature to do that, though).

Besides that, their spren are of types that practically hate each other.  If that's not a signal that their basic understanding of the world is going to be conflicted, I don't know what is.

Kaladin also has a strong desire to protect those he cares about.  Shallan expressed pretty clearly to Adolin that she hates being shut away and treated like something that needs protecting.  On the other hand, Kaladin has experience teaching newbies the ways of combat, and Shallan has some need of training so that she can put her Blade to use.

All in all, I can't say that they'll end up together, but I'm almost certain they'll at least be together for a while before the series is through.  I can't wait to see how it develops in the next book.

I think BS has purposely left out the truth of Helaran's death later to drive a wedge between Kaladin and Shallan. Also the fact about the honospren and critics being hate each other, but it does not immediately imply that both Kaladin and Shallan are going to feel the same. I believe that external and internal conflicts would make a romance in a book more interesting. It will spice things up in the romance department. It will make the relationship stronger once they overcome it. A romance in a book without any conflicts is just... BLAH and BS doesn't do BLAH. It won't make the readers interested and drawn to them to the entire point that all of us could not help but feel frustrated when the two characters are both stubborn and hardheaded to admit that they are meant for each other.

 

I would also like to say that Kaladin might have the strong desire to protect others while Shallan doesn't want to be protected. Like someone pointed out earlier, Kaladin's second ideal is this, "I will protect those who can not protect themselves." I don't think Kaladin and Shallan will have a problem with this because Shallan can clearly protect herself, as shown when both Kaladin and Shallan are in the chasm. Kaladin did not spend his time trying to protect Shallan, in fact Kaladin was the one who lets Shallan lead because she has the map, Kaladin also allowed Shallan to see the chasmfiend even when it was dangerous, Kaladin lets Shallan takes her pack even when he said to go in a different direction and escape, and at last, Kaladin was the one who suggested that Shallan climp up the chasm wall and create the little cubby. Kaladin wouldn't have allowed Shallan to do all these if Kaladin doesn't believe that Shallan is capable to do these things. Kaladin is not over protective like the way Adolin acted towards Shallan when she came back from the chasm. In fact, Kaladin admits that Shallan was the one who were saving them from being stuck in the chasm.

Edited March 18, 2014 by dhazellouise

[Velnica]

To those who are already disheartened by Shalladin...

Journey before destination

Edited March 18, 2014 by Velnica

[rauqvor]

Just gonna give my two cents.

 

Renarin: Interesting for sure, but no. She calls him creepy, and let's be honest: there's no coming back from that.

 

 

“It was time to go woo her betrothed. Somehow. The novels she’d read made it seem easy. A batting of eyelashes, blushes at appropriate times. ”- Shallan

Adolin: ^ Her manner with respect to Adolin is mechanical to the point where she essentially sees Adolin as an appointment. "oh 3 o'clock, time for my daily flirting session." Taking that into consideration, I predict an extended courting session for the sake of her family and then a "GASP, I like _____ instead" moment.

 

Kaladin: How many times do you confide in a hostile acquaintance over a day and a half about the guilt you hold over killing your father? (I gather not too often) In my honest opinion, any divergence from Shalladin is going to come from either the mysterious Tarah or Laral: not from Shallan, who I see as a perfect match.

At the same time, Heleran's death is going to be a complication for Shalladin, but I don't see it as insurmountable in any way. Shallan's personality and priorities have changed considerably from a few years prior and her family, while important, are not necessarily the only factor competing for her attention.

 

Prediction: Inevitable Love Triangle/Square (Tarah or Laral)

 

 

EDIT: Forgot Laral's name

Edited March 20, 2014 by rauqvor

[Tazren]

I'm dreading the possibility of Shallan falling for Kaladin, because I hate love triangles. I hope it won't come to that, considering that Kaladin killed her brother (in all likelyhood).

[Elena]

So, I'm generally... underwhelmed by the 'I love love triangles' angle. It's a weak excuse, folks, and lazy. It's like saying that you'll never try up fish meals in a restaurant because you hward it's a food that usually tastes disgusting because it's not done well. Can't knock it until you tried it, people; and I have a better opinion of Brandon's writing than that. If anything, he never lets romance interfere with the plot, so it will never be a major story point anyway - those are called soap operas, and it's a whole other kind of storytelling.

And then, is character development and conflict, with amazing growt potential.. how can you not *look forward* to it? Bring it on, love triangle or square or dodecagon, as long as it has interesting people in it.

[rererak]

I may come regretting not having gone through all 18 pages of this (ha, love the soap opera point though!) but I wholeheartedly believe Kaladin and I pride myself on making some hard predictions. That being said, I failed at my "how Sadeas will die" and "how Kaladin will meet up with Amaram" predictions but to be fair I had little to go on for the latter. Did have to find patches for my hair at the end of part one though. OFF TOPIC. Anyway, my prediciton strongly goes toward Kaladin for three major reasons:

 

One, he's the better fit. He doesn't follow a script and neither does Shallan, though she tries desperately, and they both are "broken" already, though I imagine that if Adolin does become "broken" one or both will help him get through it. I will agree that Adolin has wit about him that he refuses to show as often and it would be a nice way for him to make up for chasing after every skirt, and Shallan's challenge of his standards are bound to be fun but I feel Shallan benefits Adolin way more than Adolin benefits her. Which brings me to part two

 

They respect each other. Kaladin respects Shallan's independence. Shallan has come up with her own way to survive and Kaladin has noted and appreciated it, because she was like Tien, being the light for others, and Kaladin has nothing but respect for how Tien held him together during trying times. He describes her as a worn-but-not-broken spear, and says he prefers those kinds. Biggest compliment I could see Kaladin giving a girl. And Shallan has recognized he's more than a soldier. He's smart (she almost finds herself disappointed when Adolin doesn't respond to a quip of hers) and passionate, she knows that there is a lot hidden underneath but that he holds onto it like she holds onto her secrets. I can imagine her pulling out parts of him he never knew he had because she's that good at manipulating people and damnit Kaladin needs someone to pull parts out of him so he can face them and beat them and become a better person. Er, and they didn't like each other immediately, which is a biased note but I strongly dislike love at first sight things.

 

Lastly, there is a connection and foreshadowing, I believe, in Navani and Dalinar's relationship. Dalinar was passionate and intense, as is Kaladin, and even Dalinar compares himself to Kaladin. The same may not be said of Adolin and Gavilar or Navani and Shallan, but both girls are choosing the "safer" route, insisting the other doesn't like them or, at the very least, they like their safe choice. Both Navani and Shallan have admitted to themselves that the insensity of Dalinar/Kaladin scares them a little, but in the end Navani loved Dalinar. I think Shallan will have the same end result as Navani, though I believe she'll be a bit braver than Navani. Although, it helps that Kaladin doesn't feel the Thrill...

Of course, this is assuming Brandon Sanderson doesn't want to toss it in my face like he did the whole Sadeas event. There has never been a less predictable author for me, but I have still been able to guess several factions (Dalinar becoming a Radiant for example, and so will Adolin), so my money is still on Kaladin.

[Moogle]

I wouldn't mind Shallan and Hoid. It definitely wouldn't hurt my feelings to see Shallan popping up in other Cosmere books.

 

I'm hoping for Jasnah and Hoid. They've already totally got a connection (even if it's somewhat businesslike). Jasnah as a worldhopper would be the best thing ever.

[Velnica]

I'm hoping for Jasnah and Hoid. They've already totally got a connection (even if it's somewhat businesslike). Jasnah as a worldhopper would be the best thing ever.

Aww yes another person in the Jasnoid camp! That epilogue is all kinds of epic "Did they-" "Yes" "Did he-" "Yes" "Do we need to=" "Sure do!"

 

Can't wait for someone to write "Jasnah and Hoid - There and Back Again"

[Konn]

So, I already posted this in another thread but seeing as it concerns the discussion going on here, and the Q&A hasn't been mentioned before in this thread, that I have seen, I choose to repost it here  
 

This is from a recent Q&A 

Q: I really hope you're not going to do a love triangle between Kaladin, Adolin, and Shallan."
A: Brandon's response (which he worded quite carefully) was, "I'm not a fan of the traditional love triangle. However, I am fond of conflict in relationships." And he left it at that xD

i have a feeling that shallan will end up with non of them 

Ooh, interesting question. For my part, though, I don't interpret this as suggesting that Shallan will end up with neither Kaladin nor Adolin. I would rather say that of those two potential relationships (though I am not saying it necessarily has to be one of those two), Shalladin already has a lot of conflicts to go through (see the 'who will Shallan end the series with' discussion), suggesting that developing that relationship could fit in with how Mr. S likes to write relationships, and hence make it more likely.

With Adolin, I would say that the conflicts in the relationship are less apparent. I think that him killing Sadeas and perhaps him becoming jealous and feeling redundant with all the KR's around might improve the chances for Shadolin because it might bring some interesting conflicts into the relationship, even though there is a risk that he may get 'clingy', which I don't think would improve his chances with Shallan given her Daddy issues. The only other issue that could be an interesting point of conflict with Shadolin which I felt was feasible after WoR was the love-triangle with Kaladin, but if Mr. S don't particularly favor those kind of relationship conflicts I don't think that there is all that much interesting with Shadolin in terms of conflicts in the relationship. However, looking at the quote, which is described as having been worded carefully, the word traditional stands out (to me), so, perhaps Mr. S has plans to write an untraditional love triangle? Try on Shadoladin for size? 

Edit: Shadoladin was a joke.

Edit 2: Having so much fun with Shadoladin, I forgot to make my final point that I think this answer from Mr. S is increasing the odds of Shalladin happening.