rererak

While I see your point I think the better comparison would've been me, a monkey, and an ape (no specific correspondence). The change with a high storm is a pretty significant thing that I would closer relate to having thumbs rather than drinking milk... But my reasoning was more the idea that they take spren into themselves. Not even radiants do that. The wrong spren could have catastrophic, Odium-based results. I personally find it more believable that a chasmfiend becomes a giant rock thing than a Parshendi. So far the Parshendi forms haven't dramatically changed their size. They've remained in a reasonably human form. I may be misremembering (I should always carry around my darn kindle) but aren't the stone-based voidbringers much bigger than that?

That actually helps a lot though! Thanks! Also I'm still curious about where Pattern and Glys lie. I personally put them with Honor and Cultivation respectively... And I need to reread Tarvangian's words again apparently

Hmm.. wouldn't that kind of make Parshendi and the chasmfiends somewhat related? It could go alongside the fact that the artist from book one drew chasmfiends as voidbringers, maybe they still really are, just with a different spren.

"Naturespren" was just kind of a generalization. I probably should've put a space there. When I go back and edit Odium's I'll add that, but like with "voidspren" and "emotionspren" I was just putting something to be an all enclusive for those I missed. I will add lifespren to Cultivation as well because I find them important. Also, can you lead me in the direction of Moelach or the other spren you (or, well, Taravangian) mentioned because I recall neither.

I know people have mentioned this, but I think the actions of Adolin actually cemented him as a KR. He could end up with the dustbringers but somehow I see him more in the willshapers. A part of this is I like echoing past with present, where Kalak and Jezrien are the only ones shown as possibly being friends (although the relationship of the Heralds as a whole isn't known) and I could see there being a moment where Kaladin (Jezrien being his Herald) and Adolin (Kalak being the Herald of the Willshapers) have to choose to abandon someone, all of them broken by something Taravangian (who I suspect will be Odium's champion of Eshonai's sister isn't) did. Of course then I will pity whoever ends up being a stoneward. But more than that, I think the description given from the Words of Radiance book (uh... not the book we read but the one Shallan did) fits him too. “And now, if there was an uncut gem among the Radiance, it was the Willshapers; for though enterprising, they were erratic, and Invia wrote of them, 'capricious, frustrating, unreliable,' as taking it for granted that others would agree; this may have been an intolerant view, as often Invia expressed, for this order was said to be most varied, inconsistent in temperament save for a general love of adventure, novelty, or oddity.” He clearly loves oddities (Shallan being a good example) and his attitude has been incredibly erratic, as shown even in his simple 4 duels in WoR and how quickly his attitude changes in the first book regarding his father. There is logic in his mood swings, but there is definitely a little chaos as well. I mean, he even locked himself up for Kaladin! Someone who he hated before! Plus, I have had another theory going that he is similar to Gavilar is several ways (I mentioned I like echoing the past and I wrote a topic on how Kaladin is like Dalinar, Shallan is like Navani, and Adolin is like Gavilar) and the idea that others would agree fits Gavilar at the very least, and I would not be surprised if Adolin follows that attitude as time goes on. We've seen less of it, but I feel we may need to see his past a bit more before any conclusions come.

I wanted to add that I think Glys (Renarin's spren) falls under Cultivation as Renarin's skill definitely lies in futuresight and Honor has confessed he's not good at it. Also, I've been reading around and people think Pattern is a Cultivation spren. I could see that, especially as I had a debate with someone about Shallan possibly seeing "futures" (A debate I'll probably bring up here later). Besides, even Pattern says lies are a human thing and that was one thing he was trying to learn from Shallan. "Truth" is a more natural thing, although I am not entirely sure then why Syl would so adamantly reject lying. By the way, I forget, is Pattern a truthspren or a liespren. I'd look it up but I forget where it's stated

They may not have seen that part. Even Dalinar hadn't for a long time and I suspect he only saw it because the Stormfather chose that incident to see it. Maybe a few of them saw that, but maybe they also saw other visions. Dalinar was seeing largely repeats, but a few new ones, in WoR so that doesn't mean he saw all of them... just ones that were supposed to further the cause the Stormfather (and Honor) had imposed on him. Also, have we explored back into what Pai said in the interlude of Lahn? If the visions were so wrong, why couldn't we... ah heck hold on let me grab the quote... I wonder if she saw the future... maybe even saw that Honor was dead. I mean we know the reason why the Heralds and the Almighty didn't interfere, but I think she's right that the Hierocracy wasn't evil. Also, if seeing the future was wrong then what of Renarin's ability...? I suspect visions fall more in Cultivation's category, though, as Honor states that isn't where his skill lies... so there's that too.

I feel special that I seemed to have inspired someone to also research this. I am uh.. collecting all the data I can on chasmfiends (finishing up my second reread, have already finished with the first book for gathering information) and other greatshells and I will get back after I finish what I have dubbed my "research paper". There's a couple of things I wanted to mention. There seems to be some kind of relationship between the greatshells of the land and the ones of the water with the Tai-na being an inbetween, possibly an ancestor of the two since they're ancient. This could explain the similarities of pupation that Chasmfiends and the Marabethian greatshell, yu-nerig. It also makes me think that rather than chulls pupating into chasmfiends it works the other way around. For survival, possibly due to limited resources of food, chasmfiends became more docile (similar to how Parshendi are in slaveform) and were capable of choosing a lesser life form to eat (cremlings). Otherwise I think it's weird chasmfiends would be build to eat their own kind they evolved from. Not rejecting the idea, I think it's interesting, but throwing out my perspective. I also think the chasmfiends could very well live in Urithiru themselves, that their claws were developed to help them break through rocks and their capability ot traverse through tight spaces such as the chasms. The other thing I wanted to bring up was the question of Mraize's gemhearts. Even uncut, if they had been infused it would've blinded Shallan (I don't have an exact quote atm). Were those from chasmfiends or another greatshell? Do gems or gemhearts ONLY come from greatshells? If so it could explain why none of Dalinar's visions had spheres as lighting sources. Do all greatshells come to land to pupate, by the way? Is that something we can assume? If so, I wonder how that fits in with my theory that santhids are also greatshells and that greatshells all possess a lot of intelligence, especially for what we assume is a beast. If you haven't noticed, the greatshells have become an obsession of mine. Unfortunately, I have no theories on the spren yet, but I am trying to figure that out. I feel like Jasnah searching for information on Urithiru, there's just too little information. Not that I'm as smart as her...

oh storms, I never thought of that! That kinda makes me laugh. How different would life have been if there had been a slight tweak in each person's life! The issue being the "ring" as Wyndle calls it only really sent Wyndle out so it'd've either been Lift OR Kaladin as far as I know. Also, I think 14 is still too young regardless of Laral/Roshone's relationship. That wasn't done out of love and having such a large age gap (especially with a girl who obviously hasn't matured and a guy who is mature beyond his years...) just seems out of place. I vote for Shallan first because she is a balance of maturity and whimsical imagination, though I understand the reason for disliking it (and in my second read-through I'm begrudgedly agreeing that Adolin and Shallan ARE cute together. I still prefer Shallan and Kaladin). My second vote would be with Jasnah and Kaladin because they're both mature beyond their years, Jasnah being 30 since she was born and Kaladin taking up the role of leader quickly despite being darkeyes and young. While being a leader doesn't necessarily prove maturity, he's a leader in soul as much as in name. As for Kaladin being with Adolin... I have to agree with the person who said it'd be awkward to switch his preferences. I have no qualms against homosexual relationships but neither guy has even shown a remote interest in men that way. While they both struggle with their own relationships (Kaladin's two failed ones and Adolin's every-girl-in-the-camp-of-light-eyes) we do get a good peak into their minds and it's never "ah he looks attractive" or anything equivalent. It's a "how can I use this guy tactically or what is this guy's personality." I... don't think I'm explaining this well but basically the mind set of the two hasn't been even remotely towards liking them so much as thinking of their use in the grand scheme of things. Kaladin has never given a damnation about Adolin's smile as much as he has Shallan's voice.

I was noticing on several occasions that spren claim to be part of the gods (Honor, Odium, or Cultivation) and I began to wonder if all spren (or at least most) are part of the gods or only the ones who bond to Radiants. A part of this branched from Jasnah's explanation with Shallan on the boat about spren being either related to emotion or nature, such as glory or exhaustion spren and fire and rain spren. So as far as a generalization goes here is what I came up with and wanted to know everyone's opinion. Honor: We know that Honor has the honorspren and I think along those lines he tends to rule over the emotion spren, both good and bad. This is largely because in order to understand honor, in order to understand who you are as a human, you need to know the good and the bad. This does not include the absolute evil because, while pain is bad it also shows limits. Honorspren (duh) Stormfather? Gloryspren Exhaustionspren Painspren Fearspren Ivory (wisdomspren? couldn't remember where Jasnah says what it is) Cryptics (And this one's odd, I think it falls with the painspren, like there's a spectrum of "left and right" for where the spren fall and how well they interract with honor on the far left and cryptics on the slight right) Emotion Spren in general Cultivation: Cultivation would be left with the nature spren, including Lift's spren Wyndle (I scanned the chapter and couldn't find the specific name since she keeps calling him a voidbringer) who talks about "mother" Included alongside this would probably be 4 other spren that would fall under "nature" in my opinion. Wyndle Nightwalker? (goes alongside the stormfather as likely a part of Cultivation) Rainspren Firespren Naturespren Glys Odium: Odium has his own category of spren specifically... Stormspren Voidspren Ones I have no clue: Creationspren: I suspect these would end up with Honor but I'm not 100% sure The Arrow-like spren: From the eels and chasmfiends, we do not know what they are or what they do but I suspect they'd end up with cultivation (I'm working on a very lengthy research article on greatshells so maybe I'll submit my opinion on those if I post it up) Bindspren: Um... CAUSED by Syl who is from Honor but I suspect they're Cultivation's The 50million spren that live in objects included dung: Since "everything" has a spren, I suspect not all would fit into a category... I also want to believe that if spren DO fit into a category as part of one of the "gods" then I think five would fall under Honor and five under Cultivation. We have Syl, Ivory, Stormfather, and Pattern under Honor so far, in my opinion. Renarin's spren (Glys) and Ym's spren have no specific category since we know so little about them and Wyndle is obviously connected to Cultivation. So even if not all the spren are connected back to the gods, I am willing to bet that the ten that form the order would be all connected to Honor or Cultivation. Also, is there more gods than those two? Because that could change the entire spectrum, but I do not recall any hints at there being more than the three gods.

I don't know if it's been pointed out, but I find it amusing that "Gaz" started this. Is this outta spite you one-eyed man? ALso, the Lift vote makes me raise an eyebrow. I suppose in a few years it'd look odd but Lift is only 10! Well... 10 for 3 years...

Wow, have to admit, when I started reading these posts about Laral I was thinking "nah, her story is over," but I have a feeling you guys are making a strong point. I still believe that Tarah, with her shroud of mystery, will make a better Shshshsh than Laral, but I could see it going both ways as well. And the Hesina bit! Man, that actually makes a lot of sense! I mean, they even point out at one point (and pardon, I do not have my book with me right now) that if a darkeyed married a lighteyed then the children could be dark or light (and in the case of the Bastard, both!), so it is very possible Hesina has a parent or grandparent of lighteyes.

I very much plan on doing something similar (although I missed the Sanderson signing in Seattle). I am going to make a white shirt though with black letters and a very simply drawn stick in a circle (to represent the sphere). I will high five any who recognize the significance of the stick.

Not yet, they are on my list but a lack of funds inhibits that. I have a friend who I will be meeting up with who owns Mistborn and we'll be doing a trade (my Stormlight for his Mistborn), outside of that we'll have to wait and see. I REALLY want to read Warbreaker though, as I've heard rumors Zahel is in it.

Bringing the topic a little back to focus, I'm glad someone else noticed the similarities of the three. I am presently on my post-WoR reread so I'll try to pull up quotes of comparison for Navani/Shallan, Dalinar/Kaladin, and Adolin/Gavilar, especially the latter since people mentioned that Dalinar himself makes the comparison, and I think that's very good. Yes, I agree that their judgments aren't precise, such as Dalinar not thinking Adolin could do something like what happened at the end of WoR, but do you honestly think Gavilar was completely sinless? I would gather not since he chose to make a kingdom the same way Dalinar thinks is now the wrong way--through beating faces in. I think Dalinar's impression is the strongly biased one of a younger brother idolizing his older brother, and Renarin (oh dear, now that's a whole 'nother issue) is likely to also be jealous, just better at hiding it. We've yet to have a Ren point of view. I'd like to say, my HOPE is that Kaladin ends up with Shallan but I do not think that's guaranteed. I'm trying not to be too firm in my predictions because that ends horribly if I'm wrong, and I love this series way to much to let a side-romance-plot ruin it. I think the fact that all six are similar in character and similar in the setup for romance could mean that Shallan can go down a different path, a path that let's Navani see what could have happened or let's Navani help her in her choices. They're similar so that they can be different, so Shallan can choose another route. Does that eliminate the possibility of Adolin dying like Gavilar? Nope. If Navani does choose to try and assist Shallan though, I think she (and Jasnah actually, although I doubt she'd care) would be able to unbiased enough not to let the fact Adolin is their nephew/cousin get in the way with helping Shallan make the right choices. So at least Shallan has good support, which Navani probably didn't have. Also, on the Shallan bit, I think there IS some similarities between Navani and Shallan that are very strong. Having a Navani POV will help clarify that, but them both being incredibly intelligent but not abandoning their emotions (like Jasnah) is one major staple. At the very least, Shallan is nothing like shshshsh

I know there's a Shallan's Relationship thread, but that is largely opinion and I wanted to talk a little more about the parallel specificly in the books and get if anyone else wanted to expand on the idea or not. (And this topic is one of my major obsessions, but I'm a sucker for romance especially when i didn't expect to find one in this series) The first thing to point out is there is obviously two love triangles. One is already settled. That is between Navani, Gavilar, and Dalinar. Despite being dead, I think Gavilar one this. He didn't get Navani's heart, but he did get her hand in marriage and then had two children who may or may not have been worth it. (I kid, I love you Jasnah). After his death and when Dalinar starts acting with honor instead of with the Thrill, then Navani is able to step up and seduce him. But there is no doubt she went towards Gavilar first. The second is, you guessed it, Shallan, Adolin, and Kaladin who parallel Navani, Gavilar, and Dalinar respectively. Nothing is necessarily settled here, but Shallan is presently pushing towards Adolin. Now, I'm going to be biased for a second and say I hope Shallan doesn't need the death of Adolin to finally go to Kaladin. There, I said it, Shallan should be with Kaladin. Okay, here is where they parallel. First, each character: Shallan and Navani are both scholars and have a habit of forgoing protocol, like when Navani rushes ahead of her servants at Sadeas' camp near the end of book one, or when Shallan leaves behind the palanquin on the plateaus because it was too slow. Kaladin and Dalinar are both strongly soldiers, and Dalinar has also mentioned he sees a lot of himself in Kaladin. They're both intense (which is a huge point I'll come back to in a moment) and they make a lot of wrong choices to finally get to the right one (trusting Sadeas or the side carry for example). They also don't ignore those around them and have a habit of trusting people until they're betrayed. Both are very likely to hide their feelings in deference to their brother/friend who is showing interest in the female of the triangle. Annnd the similarities goes on. Which is good because I have no real comparison between Adolin and Gavilar, a battle scene and a conversation are hardly enough background on a character to make any real details out. The similarities in relationships: I mentioned in another post that Navani went to Gavilar because she thought he was the "safer" choice. This doesn't mean established money and position (although that could be a comparison between Adolin and Gavilar) because neither Shallan nor Navani seem concerned about that. At least, not immediately. Shallan is still concerned about her family's financial state, but I imagine that has fallen back in her mind as far as it can when it comes to courting Adolin. No, the reason Gavilar, and consequently Adolin, are the "safer" choice is they are more binding to their emotions. They express them, obviously (see: brawl fight in duel), but they tend not to act out in aggression like Dalinar (who nearly killed his brother) or Kaladin (who shows open hostility to most lighteyes). So with Adolin and Gavilar, the girls know they will not hurt them. Heck, Adolin goes about making a promise to protect Shallan. This works in tangent with the fact that the alternative choice is known to be "too intense" by both girls ("I chose him because you frightened me. That intensity of yours...it scared your brother too, you know"~ Navani, Way of Kings, Chapter 28) ("But Kaladin's intensity, that frightened her. He seemed like a man who constantly had his teeth clenched, a man who couldn't let himself--or anyone else--just sit down and take a nice rest"~ Shallan, Words of Radiance, Chapter 70). So the girls tell themselves they're fine with their choice, but keep secretly glancing back at the real one they like. So I imagine a huge connection is going through them and I wholeheartedly believe that one of three things will happen: One, Shallan will choose Adolin despite liking Kaladin until Adolin is killed for one reason or another. Two, Shallan will be stronger than Navani and pick Kaladin in the first place. Three, Shallan will pick Adolin and Kaladin will be left with no one but a pretty honorspren (not bad, but I like Shallan and Kaladin better). I'm rooting for two, because I like Adolin despite myself.

Thanks, I must have missed it the Nalan part. This is why rereads are important. And I know that Chasmfiends aren't their gods, I was just wondering what actions would've lead them to assume they were. Also, your signature makes me smile. The Lopen quote is one of three I use to try and convince people to read the book.

I may come regretting not having gone through all 18 pages of this (ha, love the soap opera point though!) but I wholeheartedly believe Kaladin and I pride myself on making some hard predictions. That being said, I failed at my "how Sadeas will die" and "how Kaladin will meet up with Amaram" predictions but to be fair I had little to go on for the latter. Did have to find patches for my hair at the end of part one though. OFF TOPIC. Anyway, my prediciton strongly goes toward Kaladin for three major reasons: One, he's the better fit. He doesn't follow a script and neither does Shallan, though she tries desperately, and they both are "broken" already, though I imagine that if Adolin does become "broken" one or both will help him get through it. I will agree that Adolin has wit about him that he refuses to show as often and it would be a nice way for him to make up for chasing after every skirt, and Shallan's challenge of his standards are bound to be fun but I feel Shallan benefits Adolin way more than Adolin benefits her. Which brings me to part two They respect each other. Kaladin respects Shallan's independence. Shallan has come up with her own way to survive and Kaladin has noted and appreciated it, because she was like Tien, being the light for others, and Kaladin has nothing but respect for how Tien held him together during trying times. He describes her as a worn-but-not-broken spear, and says he prefers those kinds. Biggest compliment I could see Kaladin giving a girl. And Shallan has recognized he's more than a soldier. He's smart (she almost finds herself disappointed when Adolin doesn't respond to a quip of hers) and passionate, she knows that there is a lot hidden underneath but that he holds onto it like she holds onto her secrets. I can imagine her pulling out parts of him he never knew he had because she's that good at manipulating people and damnit Kaladin needs someone to pull parts out of him so he can face them and beat them and become a better person. Er, and they didn't like each other immediately, which is a biased note but I strongly dislike love at first sight things. Lastly, there is a connection and foreshadowing, I believe, in Navani and Dalinar's relationship. Dalinar was passionate and intense, as is Kaladin, and even Dalinar compares himself to Kaladin. The same may not be said of Adolin and Gavilar or Navani and Shallan, but both girls are choosing the "safer" route, insisting the other doesn't like them or, at the very least, they like their safe choice. Both Navani and Shallan have admitted to themselves that the insensity of Dalinar/Kaladin scares them a little, but in the end Navani loved Dalinar. I think Shallan will have the same end result as Navani, though I believe she'll be a bit braver than Navani. Although, it helps that Kaladin doesn't feel the Thrill... Of course, this is assuming Brandon Sanderson doesn't want to toss it in my face like he did the whole Sadeas event. There has never been a less predictable author for me, but I have still been able to guess several factions (Dalinar becoming a Radiant for example, and so will Adolin), so my money is still on Kaladin.

Uh... hi? Introduction pages have always been a bit of an awkward thing for me. How do I start? With a name? A 'hello'? A background story? I can do all of those, but I'm never sure how to do them without sounding mechanical, so instead you get the weird ramblings of a person who chooses to name herself after a crazy wizard of her own making. Honestly, excluding sites where I can get advice from professionals or people with a least a little more experience than I (in otherwords, I joined a cat help site back when I first got my new kitten), I haven't been a part of a fansite since high school, and those were largely containing "fangirlism" at jumping at the cutest boy in whatever anime/movie/whatever I was into at that point. Man, I've come a long way. I hope. However, I ran into a recent dilemna. A friend got me into this book back in September of 2013, you see, and I read it patiently at first, being polite (I don't like most books my friends loan me) and then prompty finished it off in record time. Of course, when the second book out I grabbed it and read it in 3 days. Sooner if pesky sleep and work weren't required. Anyway, I finished it, tried to push it onto others and returned to the friend who loaned me the first book. He hadn't read the book and had too many books on his list to return to it quickly enough for my patience. Only three people in my group of friends agreed to give it a try, and of them only one (my mother) has actually started and is only about half way through Way of Kings at this point in time. So what is a girl who has become so obsessed with this book that she has re-read her favorite scene in Words of Radiance four times and is presently rereading Way of Kings again to do? (Ugh that sentence looks ugly) I have so many questions I want to bounce off and so many fan theories (and romances, some parts of me have not advanced far from my high school self) that I want to lay to rest. So, I finally arrived here, to now torment the people of this forum with my questions. Questions/Statements I hope to go into deeper, but my primary ones are as follows: GAH, so many questions. Well, I guess that's why I'm here. Also, I will be getting into his other books soon.