Shallan's Relationship

[Kogiopsis]

I suppose it depends on one's perception. I know Hoid is millenniums* old, but I don't think of him as some sort of a grandpa. Shipping Lift and Kal, that sounds wrong and weird (at least until she's old enough), but Shalloid (Hollan?) is absolutely fine by me. After all only Cultivation is around his age and they don't get along, so he'll have to go for someone much younger anyway.

 

edit: * come to think of it, he might not be that old if he can time travel

 

He's definitely said he's the same age as Cultivation, so he totally is that old, time travel or no time travel.

 

And idk, personally I don't see Hoid being romantically interested in anyone at all - or at least, not until his series comes out. 

[Aleksiel]

He's definitely said he's the same age as Cultivation, so he totally is that old, time travel or no time travel.

 

And idk, personally I don't see Hoid being romantically interested in anyone at all - or at least, not until his series comes out. 

 

He didn't explicitly say who he meant, so even though that's the likeliest guess, I said 'might' just to be safe.

 

I wasn't really serious about that ship, just sounded like a fun one. I doubt Hoid will have a romantic relationship during SA, may be in other books. IIRC, he's supposed to be a major character in the third Mistborn series, so may be then, but we'll see. 

[kari-no-sugata]

Shallan can very well end with Hoid, I'd be happy for her. That could have  battles of wits day and night. Both are curious, searching for some truth just beyond the horizon, love traveling, wanting to see more and more. To know more and to do more. She can access Shadesmar and they could be worldhoppers together. She will be drawing strange plants and animals while he's gathering stories.

 

I don't remember reading this before but it's pretty similar to a crazy idea I had myself. Except that Shallan would be dead (!)

 

Setup: Shallan pushes herself to the max with Soulcasting (possibly with an Honorblade) to defeat something big and save the day, using up an astronomical amount of Stormlight. But, as a side-effect her entire body turns into gemstone (like how the Soulcasters we see briefly in WoR are no longer quite human).  So, Shallan saves the day but dies and they don't need to make a statue in her honour because she already is one.

 

Later: Hoid feels he needs to go to Shallan/statue - it is put outside (under a roof) since Shallan wouldn't like to be "locked up" indoors. He waits. Nothing happens. Eventually, a highstorm comes. Hoid waits, still nothing happens. Suddenly, the stage in the highstorm where gems are infused comes and Shallan/statue radiates with light. Hoid feels a presence behind him and turns around - there is the glowing form of Shallan, floating in the air. She's become a spren

 

And off they go to have much fun adventures together...

 

 

The original idea for this was: hmm, maybe if Shallan can Soulcast people then she can Soulcast herself? If so, would it be possible to become a spren!? I then had the idea that since Hoid tends to "steal" a power from each Shardworld it would be kinda fun for him to get a spren and him and Shallan feels like they could be an interesting combination. They'd just need to figure out some why to fuel Surges with Investure other than Stormlight or find a way to metabolise Stormlight like Lift. Note, in this idea of mine, Shallan and Hoid wouldn't necessarily be lovers at all, but more like "birds of a feather".

 

 

[Botanica]

Oh, finally see some mentions of Shallan/Hoid!!! I personally looove this ship, but I agree that Hoid may not be romantically involved with any character from SA. Despite that, I'd also like to see he and Shallan becoming mentor-apprentice or just good friends =) (Some scenes in WoR really made me scream like a fangirl )

[theravenchilde]

Dudes. Shallan/Sigzil/Hoid snarky teachy fun times. Throw in Jasnah too for additional SCIENCE and somewhat less philosophy. And for even MORE SCIENCE add Zahel/Vasher because did you see that man blabbing about Biochromatic theory just think about what theories he's putting together about Investiture on Roshar (maybe that's what Vivenna is off doing; gathering data! For science!)

 

Basically now I want to start the Rosharan Institute of Technology with them. Thanks to Shallan/Hoid snark offs.

[kari-no-sugata]

Oh, finally see some mentions of Shallan/Hoid!!! I personally looove this ship, but I agree that Hoid may not be romantically involved with any character from SA. Despite that, I'd also like to see he and Shallan becoming mentor-apprentice or just good friends =) (Some scenes in WoR really made me scream like a fangirl )

 

Heh, Shallan glomping Hoid is my favourite scene in the book

 

However, it's not because I'm shipping them but because it's just so darn hilarious - Hoid is the unflappable all-too-knowing type of the Cosmere and Shallan manages to shock him twice in the same book

 

I really do hope Shallan apprentices to him at some point, though. It feels like a "promise to the readers" at least, since Hoid implies he might be able to help more when she's ready on their first meeting. However, tracking him down and getting him to agree might be a challenge.

 

There's lots of fun possibilities with them together. For example, Shallan could Lightweave herself as Wit and then she and Hoid could insult people in stereo

[Botanica]

Heh, Shallan glomping Hoid is my favourite scene in the book

However, it's not because I'm shipping them but because it's just so darn hilarious - Hoid is the unflappable all-too-knowing type of the Cosmere and Shallan manages to shock him twice in the same book

I really do hope Shallan apprentices to him at some point, though. It feels like a "promise to the readers" at least, since Hoid implies he might be able to help more when she's ready on their first meeting. However, tracking him down and getting him to agree might be a challenge.

There's lots of fun possibilities with them together. For example, Shallan could Lightweave herself as Wit and then she and Hoid could insult people in stereo

Yeah I totally agree with you =) Hoid in shock is super fun to see! (Well done, Shallan!) When I read that hugging scene for the first time, I just couldn't believe my eyes… Wait, what happened?! Then I burst into a long-time laugh (And, I like the Shallan becoming Wit idea)

[Aleksiel]

Oh, finally see some mentions of Shallan/Hoid!!! I personally looove this ship, but I agree that Hoid may not be romantically involved with any character from SA. Despite that, I'd also like to see he and Shallan becoming mentor-apprentice or just good friends =) (Some scenes in WoR really made me scream like a fangirl )

 

Are you sure? I mean, Shallan's mentors tend to get killed... It's a pattern!  

(sorry, I couldn't resist )

 

 

Dudes. Shallan/Sigzil/Hoid snarky teachy fun times. Throw in Jasnah too for additional SCIENCE and somewhat less philosophy. And for even MORE SCIENCE add Zahel/Vasher because did you see that man blabbing about Biochromatic theory just think about what theories he's putting together about Investiture on Roshar (maybe that's what Vivenna is off doing; gathering data! For science!)

 

Basically now I want to start the Rosharan Institute of Technology with them. Thanks to Shallan/Hoid snark offs.

 

This is so awesome, it deserves its own thread!

[FeatherWriter]

Dudes. Shallan/Sigzil/Hoid snarky teachy fun times. Throw in Jasnah too for additional SCIENCE and somewhat less philosophy. And for even MORE SCIENCE add Zahel/Vasher because did you see that man blabbing about Biochromatic theory just think about what theories he's putting together about Investiture on Roshar (maybe that's what Vivenna is off doing; gathering data! For science!)

 

Basically now I want to start the Rosharan Institute of Technology with them. Thanks to Shallan/Hoid snark offs.

 

Okay, I know this doesn't even sound like me, but if we're talking about cute interactions with Hoid, we should definitely put Renarin in there. "Those who ‘deserve’ my mockery are those who can benefit from it, Brightlord Dalinar. That one is less fragile than you think him”?? "Nothing ridiculous"?? Renarin and Hoid cutes are the best cutes.

[Aether]

Okay, I know this doesn't even sound like me, but if we're talking about cute interactions with Hoid, we should definitely put Renarin in there. "Those who ‘deserve’ my mockery are those who can benefit from it, Brightlord Dalinar. That one is less fragile than you think him”?? "Nothing ridiculous"?? Renarin and Hoid cutes are the best cutes.

I am looking forward to the day you start a Renarin shipping Thread in order to map and plot all possible (and quite the number of impossible) Renarin-ships.

 

EDIT: Anyone else than me who wants to read a Jenet/Renarin ship just to see how that would / would not work?

Edited June 17, 2014 by Aether

[theravenchilde]

Okay, I know this doesn't even sound like me, but if we're talking about cute interactions with Hoid, we should definitely put Renarin in there. "Those who ‘deserve’ my mockery are those who can benefit from it, Brightlord Dalinar. That one is less fragile than you think him”?? "Nothing ridiculous"?? Renarin and Hoid cutes are the best cutes.

 

He is welcome about the good ship R.I.T. and all the science bound to happen. And snark. We can use Renarin snark.

[Shaggai]

He is welcome about the good ship R.I.T. and all the science bound to happen. And snark. We can use Renarin snark.

I'm not sure that Renarin snark would be a good idea. We've already got Kaladin, and Shallan, and Hoid in a position that requires him to be extremely snarky. If we added Renarin to that mix, Roshar might be obliterated in a gigantic firestorm of snark.

[Sylphrena-Stormborn]

I guess I wouldn't mind a love triangle as long aa adolin and kaladins friendship isnt affected-but thats highly unlikely so Adolin I guess

(Thought I can imagine her going out with Renarin as adolin and kaladin atand there looking confused and being idiots)

[Cold Fusion]

Think about this,

Shallan fell for a monk once, what if she fell for zahel???

Creepy.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Taravangian

[Aether]

Think about this,

Shallan fell for a monk once, what if it was zahel???

Creepy.

I am quite confident she was referring to Kabsal here.

[Cold Fusion]

sorry for my previous post, it was on one of the stupider days...

Mrall wouldn't even let me pass judgement.

[hurricaneez1]

Gotta say....Im really surprised at the number of votes Kaladin is getting. True....they had some nice moments running from the chasmfiend but other than that she seems totally in love with Adolin. Even after the chasm incident, as soon as she is back with Adolin, she doesnt even acknowledge Kaladin.

Additionally...I think seeing Adolin try to deal with her power would be much more interesting than the alternative.

[maxal]

Gotta say....Im really surprised at the number of votes Kaladin is getting. True....they had some nice moments running from the chasmfiend but other than that she seems totally in love with Adolin. Even after the chasm incident, as soon as she is back with Adolin, she doesnt even acknowledge Kaladin.

Additionally...I think seeing Adolin try to deal with her power would be much more interesting than the alternative.

 

Yeah go Team Adolin!

[The Shadow]

You ar assuming Shallan doesn't give Jasnah the flying hug variety where she jumps up on her and wraps her legs around her waist. 

 

...

 

Hah, for all that Shallan's less prudish than the Alethi I don't think she's quite that free with physical affection.

 

Burying her face in Jasnah's bosom as theravenchilde suggests, however, seems almost a certainty.

 

...

 

I'll be in my bunk...

 

 

In seriousness though, I voted for Adolin. Not because I prefer him with her to Kaladin (surprisingly, though I'm a Natural-Born Shipper, romance hadn't really entered my mind while reading), but because it seems most likely to me (though I would be surprised if Shallan/Kaladin happened either).

 

People keep saying Adolin and Shallan have little in common, but I think that's exactly what's going to keep them together. With Kaladin, I think, they both will run the risk of focusing too much on their pain as they see themselves in each other.

Adolin is Shallan's escape. She's at ease with him. She can forget. I think she'll cherish that.

I also think her feelings for him run deeper than people think. Remember, she was very defensive of him when Kaladin was making fun of him. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but she doesn't seem the sort to defend people she doesn't care for.

 

Also, I agree with the others about Kaladin not wanting to come between them. It's a matter of honor for most guys in real life, let alone Honor's champion. Maybe if Adolin died, he would try, but even then, I'm not sure.

Finally, on the meta side of things, Sanderson does seem to like his arranged marriages to work out. It happens often enough to be a theme in his work..

 

-Sarene/Raoden

-Vivenna/Susebron

-Wax/Steris (This may be premature, but I'm counting it)

 

-Shallan/Adolin would just be one more.

[DeployParachute]

Gotta say....Im really surprised at the number of votes Kaladin is getting. True....they had some nice moments running from the chasmfiend but other than that she seems totally in love with Adolin. Even after the chasm incident, as soon as she is back with Adolin, she doesnt even acknowledge Kaladin.

Additionally...I think seeing Adolin try to deal with her power would be much more interesting than the alternative.

 

Hi, welcome to the boards.  As for getting some perspective on the Shalladin shippers arguments for Kaladin and Shallan ending up together, I'd recommend reading through many of the previous pages on this topic, as many people have contributed to both presenting a case as well as refuting it.  Seloun has some really good posts for pro Shalladin, as do many others, and I'll admit I have written some very lengthy entries myself.  You can also find a lot of good content in the "Kaladin's Relationship" thread as well.  Sorry, it's late and I don't have the mental energy to start going back through and digging up quotes from the thread, so I'll just summarize what I feel are the main arguments that have been made:

 

1. While on the surface, Adolin and Shallan appear to be a good match, they don't have very much in common, and most of their interactions have been superficial.  

 

2. Kaladin and Shallan appear to have formed a deeper bond in the few times they have interacted together than the one that Shallan and Adolin have currently.  Whether the moments of connection in the chasm is a result of circumstance, or their growing comfort/trust around each other has been a big focus of the debate.  Also, your statement about her not acknowledging Kaladin after she is back with Adolin is simply untrue, as evidenced by the scene where the armies are marching out to the plains, and She actually spaces out thinking about Kaladin while Adolin is talking to her.  She is comparing the two in her head, and her description of Kaladin is quite flattering.  She blushes when she realizes she completely missed the things Adolin had been saying to her.

 

3. Finally, and this is an argument that I like to push a lot, from a writing and plot development perspective, Brandon has dropped many nuggets throughout WoR of future relationship entanglements between Kaladin and Shallan.  Some examples of such can be:

• Kaladin's hesitation to reveal the truth of Heleran's death.  
• I found one on my last reread, where Syl talks to Kaladin about Cryptics for the first time, and Kaladin thinks "What kind of Knight Radiant would be made by a group of spren Syl so obviously detested.  It didn't sound like someone he'd want to get to know".  (oh ho ho, Kaladin, little do you know the foreshadowing your creator is using, don't worry, you'll get to know her soon)
• Shallan stating that great art is "a study in contrast", with many references in the book concerning Kal and her contrasts.  Kaladin hates rainy gloomy weather, Shallan finds it comforting.  Kaladin is a morning person, Shallan prefers to sleep in.  Combine that with some Words of Brandon we have where he talks about a lot of these same contrasts exist between himself and his wife, it doesn't seem to far of a stretch to think he is recreating a bit of what he considers to be an interesting relationship here within the books. 

So the way I look at it is, Adolin and Shallan is one aspect of a writer's "sleight of hand" trick.  They are what he draws your attention to.  Focus on this relationship, see this relationship here I've set up so nicely, taking main stage and keeping your attention?  Pay no attention to what my other hand is doing, writing these subtle lines, interactions, and subplot so that I can spring it on you later down the story.

 

 

People keep saying Adolin and Shallan have little in common, but I think that's exactly what's going to keep them together. With Kaladin, I think, they both will run the risk of focusing too much on their pain as they see themselves in each other.

Adolin is Shallan's escape. She's at ease with him. She can forget. I think she'll cherish that.

I also think her feelings for him run deeper than people think. Remember, she was very defensive of him when Kaladin was making fun of him. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but she doesn't seem the sort to defend people she doesn't care for.

Finally, on the meta side of things, Sanderson does seem to like his arranged marriages to work out. It happens often enough to be a theme in his work..

 

-Sarene/Raoden

-Vivenna/Susebron

-Wax/Steris (This may be premature, but I'm counting it)

 

-Shallan/Adolin would just be one more.

 

New thoughts and points, thanks for sharing.  Here are some of my thoughts triggered by what you have written.

 

1.  I'll preface this by saying that everyone has had many different experiences than me relationship wise, and I'm by no means claiming to be an expert.  That being said,  it has never seemed that in my own relationships or those of my close friends and family in which a successful, long lasting romantic relationship was shared between two people who had very little in common.  Not saying it's impossible, just that I have not seen it, so I remain skeptical.

 

2.  Escapes are nice, but constantly being in a state of avoidance of one's problems doesn't seem like a very appealing way to approach life or relationships long term to me.  And I would disagree that Shallan is "at ease" with Adolin.  Every interaction she has with Adolin is very carefully thought out, controlled, measured, calculated.  Throughout the book she is constantly thinking about how to keep him interested in her, how not to hold on too tight that she pushes him away (compares that behavior to how her father treated her), how she needs to say the right things.  With Kaladin, she does not worry about what he thinks of her, nor what she says to him.  She says what's on her mind, and doesn't worry about what he thinks about it.  Talk about being able to be oneself versus not.  And Kaladin in turn responds very well to her real thoughts, feelings, and personality.

 

3.  Sure Shallan defends those she doesn't necessarily care for.  Don't think you could call the deserters she picked up in the plains people she particularly "cared" for, but she still defended their potential to be honorable men.  She also defended the men that attacked her and Jasnah in WoK, reprimanding Jasnah for taking such harsh actions.  Shallan strikes me as someone who doesn't like people being bullied (as she and her family had been bullied by her father).  Kaladin was being an chull, during the scene you reference, plain and simple.  It seemed to me that Shallan was responding to that and calling him out on his crap and hypocrisy, more so than any particular need to defend Adolin.  Now I'm not saying she doesn't care for Adolin, I just don't think her defending him is evidence for those feelings.  Nor do I feel her defense of Adolin is an indicator of her lack of interest or caring for Kaladin.  She cares about a lot of people, and I feel confident in saying that Kaladin is, at least, a part of that subset.

 

4.  The fact that arranged marriages is Brandon's "usual" leads me to believe the opposite of your own conclusion: it is time to diverge, and I feel the writing up to this point supports that.  See my 3rd point to hurricaneez.

 

Again, thank you both for sharing, I always enjoy shipping conversations.

Edited July 23, 2014 by DeployParachute

[Aleksiel]

What deep connection between Kaladin and Shallan? They basically didn't say a word to each other after the chasms it's really too soon to declare them deeply bonded.

[DeployParachute]

What deep connection between Kaladin and Shallan? They basically didn't say a word to each other after the chasms it's really too soon to declare them deeply bonded.

 

I didn't declare them to be "deeply bonded", I stipulated that a major argument being presented by Shalladan shippers is that Kaladin and Shallan have formed a deeper bond than her and Adolin.  I would agree that they are no where near a state where one could consider them deeply bonded, but I think the argument is still sound to say that the turnaround in their interactions and relationship with one another has changed a lot more drastically than her and Adolin.  Over the span of one section of the book, Kaladin and Shallan have gone from suspicion, distrust, and sometimes outright loathing and hostility into one of friendliness, understanding, and admiration.  And all of this was accomplished by getting their true feelings and thoughts out in the open, and sharing very personal and emotionally upsetting aspects about themselves on the level that quite frankly we have just not seen much of between Adolin and Shallan.  Hope that that sufficiently explains what I meant by that section of my post, but again, never know until I get feedback.

 

Now, as to the second part of your question, I will concede that the interactions between Kaladin and Shallan after the chasm scene are practically non-existent.  But I would consider this to be more of a consequence of the circumstances surrounding the continuation of the plot.  There is no time or opportunity for them to interact with the remaining plot within the book,  and of course their focus during the climax (and rightly so) is on more important things.  Actually, this seems indicative to me of Brandon's ability to write a decent triangle story, as most people's gripes about it appear to be over concerns with it getting in the way of the plot.  Well, if WoR is any indication, I don't think we have to worry much about that.  And once Shallan and Kaladin do have another scene together in the future, I think you'll see the impact of their experiences and deeper bond playing out in a positive direction (and yes, I believe it will be romantically).

 

With all that being said, I won't lie and say it doesn't concern me a little that there wasn't another scene in the last few chapters of the book in which we see a little bit more of Kal or Shallan's thoughts on one another revealed further.  I would have liked to see that iron struck while it was hot.  This could be reflective of the necessary pacing of the final pages, but in the end, who can say what Brandon has in mind.  I think that if we don't see another interaction between the two of them before Kaladin goes flying off to Hearthstone, then that is a good indication that Brandon intends to let them simmer on the back burner while he focuses on developing Shallan and Adolin's relationship and then ultimately having them fall apart.

 

SA3 reading spoiler

Saw a lot of claims that the SA 3 chapter with Kaladin was considered the "first chapter", and if that is the case, it seems thatif there were any conversations between him and anyone prior to his departure, we won't be privy to them.  Shalladin is being shelved for a while, so we might not have to deal with a triangle anyway...

Edited July 23, 2014 by DeployParachute

[Aleksiel]

.....

 

I used that phrasing because I wasn't addressing you personally, but the general argument of Shallan and Kaladin 'bonding deeply' in the chasms (or formed a deeper connection than she and Adolin as you say), which is something I disagree with. They certainly went beyond the initial hostility, that doesn't mean they have something special. Any two half decent people should learn to respect each enough to not throw public insults like Shallan and Kaladin did. I for one was unimpressed by this part, but everyone's reading experience is different.

 

If they had a connection (let alone something special going on), they would have found a few minutes to interact afterwards despite the circumstances. There were several days between coming back from the chasms and the expedition, more than enough time to find a way to spare a few minutes on someone who's important to you.

 

Shallan could have checked on Kaladin before departing to the Shattered Plains to see how he was. Or at least ask someone about his health.

 

There was time for Kaladin and Shallan to talk to each other in Urithiru, for her to wish him luck or at least say anything nice to him before he went to race the everstorm. I think Shallan would have said something to Kaladin if she indeed cared for him, she's not that shy and the moment was socially appropriate. But she didn't. 

[TheBrian]

Shallan winds up with Stick.  It's obvious if you read the text at a deeper level.  Trying to convince Stick to be fire was a metaphor for romance.  But their relationship can't move forward until Shallan speaks her final truth - that she loves Stick more than Adolin or Kaladin.  It's really quite obvious once you see it.

[maxal]

I used that phrasing because I wasn't addressing you personally, but the general argument of Shallan and Kaladin 'bonding deeply' in the chasms (or formed a deeper connection than she and Adolin as you say), which is something I disagree with. They certainly went beyond the initial hostility, that doesn't mean they have something special. Any two half decent people should learn to respect each enough to not throw public insults like Shallan and Kaladin did. I for one was unimpressed by this part, but everyone's reading experience is different.

 

If they had a connection (let alone something special going on), they would have found a few minutes to interact afterwards despite the circumstances. There were several days between coming back from the chasms and the expedition, more than enough time to find a way to spare a few minutes on someone who's important to you.

 

Shallan could have checked on Kaladin before departing to the Shattered Plains to see how he was. Or at least ask someone about his health.

 

There was time for Kaladin and Shallan to talk to each other in Urithiru, for her to wish him luck or at least say anything nice to him before he went to race the everstorm. I think Shallan would have said something to Kaladin if she indeed cared for him, she's not that shy and the moment was socially appropriate. But she didn't. 

 

You make an interesting point I have never seen before: Shallan does not inquire after Kaladin health following the chasm scene. She does not try to talk to him, to see him. If she really felt she had this deep bond with him, she would have done these things. She would have find an opportunity.

 

True also for the scene at Urithiru. She does not go to him: she goes to Adolin. In fact, when she sees battered and bloody Adolin right after the fight, her main reflex is to fuss over him. She momentarily forgets about the oathgate, her task at end and she just run to him. She does care about Adolin, at least a little. Also, during their talk, in Urithiru, Adolin is truly in awe of Shallan, telling her how amazing she is, and Shallan refuses to let her new status change anything, so she just kiss him.

 

I agree the chasm scene has made Kaladin moved away from their initial hostility and it opened the door for maybe friendship. Maybe love, I am admitting it, but I am not entirely sure we are going to see it.

 

Whereas, it is true the Shallan/Adolin relationship lacks some depth, but they have been dating for what, a few weeks? Give them time. I am so anxious to see how their relationship will go forward following Adolin's sure plunge to hell and fall from grace.