Shallan's Relationship

[Aleksiel]

the word traditional stands out (to me), so, perhaps Mr. S has plans to write an untraditional love triangle? Try on Shadoladin for size? 

 

Or, you know, plot twist - Kadolin!

[Elena]

Or, you know, plot twist - Kadolin!

You just unleashed my inner fangirl with this

*squee*

Can I say that their bromance was the best relationship in WoR?

[Hearty_Joe]

SPOILERS!!!
Does this mean that 85% of voters believe Shallan will survive the series? Also, in the only completely published story-arc in the Cosmere, 'The Mistborn trilogy' The only relationship that endured (Can you really count Vin and Elend and being in a relationship at the end?) was Spook's which was only developed at the VERY END of the story. And the overall survival rate of everyone else in the series was not too high... I do not have high hopes for Brandon's cosmere characters at this point, though I'm glad others seem more optimistic than me. After all, Shallan and Adolin DO have more in common by the end of WoR, they can now discuss how it feels to kill someone in cold blood...

[Aleksiel]

Can I say that their bromance was the best relationship in WoR?

 

Definitely the best bromance in WoR!

 

SPOILERS!!!

Does this mean that 85% of voters believe Shallan will survive the series?

 

Well, the series end for Shallan once she's dead so the question doesn't necessarily mean she survives the end of SA. The point is who she will be with when her adventures in SA end. 

[darkanimereal1]

 

So, I already posted this in another thread but seeing as it concerns the discussion going on here, and the Q&A hasn't been mentioned before in this thread, that I have seen, I choose to repost it here   
 

Ooh, interesting question. For my part, though, I don't interpret this as suggesting that Shallan will end up with neither Kaladin nor Adolin. I would rather say that of those two potential relationships (though I am not saying it necessarily has to be one of those two), Shalladin already has a lot of conflicts to go through (see the 'who will Shallan end the series with' discussion), suggesting that developing that relationship could fit in with how Mr. S likes to write relationships, and hence make it more likely. 

 

I was the one who overheard that question at the signing. I was next in line and thought, "OH MY GOD, WE HAVE A WHOLE THREAD GOING ABOUT THIS." And I quickly whipped out my iPod and recorded the second half of his answer xD

 

Anyway, earlier at the signing (my first time through the signing line), I had asked him a question and got an unexpected answer:

 

Me: The weepings--Shallan and Kaladin react very differently to them.

Brandon: They do.

M: It just seems to me that the Weepings feel very close to Cultivation.

Brandon: The primary thing you’re noticing -- and I’m not going to say there’s not any magical influence -- but the primary thing you’re noticing is that Kaladin has season defective disorder and Shallan likes the rain. That’s the primary thing you’re noticing. I like the rain--my wife hates it. My wife gets depressed when it rains and I love when it rains.

 

I already knew that Kaladin had seasonal depression, but I thought it may have to do with the lack of highstorms (and thus the lack of Honor/stormlight). On the other hand, with Cryptics and Honorspren being on opposite ends of the spectrum, and the fact that Shallan loved the rain/Weeping so much, I thought it may indicate a closer connection with Cultivation. It looks like I was wrong. xD 

 

However, (and this is completely gut reaction and not at all scientific or anything) the fact that he gave Kaladin a trait from his wife and Shallan a trait from himself really indicates to me that these two are going to be a thing. I don't know, maybe that's really goofy of me to assume, particularly because Brandon is such an amazing writer and I don't think he would write himself or Emily into his books. But still, the fact that these traits are drawn from the two of them was kind of like a little flag to me. What do you guys think? Am I just crazy, maybe? lol

[Seloun]

However, (and this is completely gut reaction and not at all scientific or anything) the fact that he gave Kaladin a trait from his wife and Shallan a trait from himself really indicates to me that these two are going to be a thing. I don't know, maybe that's really goofy of me to assume, particularly because Brandon is such an amazing writer and I don't think he would write himself or Emily into his books. But still, the fact that these traits are drawn from the two of them was kind of like a little flag to me. What do you guys think? Am I just crazy, maybe? lol

 

 

Well, it certainly means their difference of opinion about the weather is not going to be significant barrier. When I noticed the difference originally, it was subtle enough that I was wondering if it was just coincidental (though when I re-read, I noticed that it's actually referenced frequently throughout the entire book, at least on Shallan's side).

 

The fact that BS seemed to immediately get what you were referring to and immediately provide an anecdote seems like a pretty good indication that the difference is not coincidental. Not ruling out the magic influence thing leads me to think that it's might be spren-influenced somehow.

[dhazellouise]

However, (and this is completely gut reaction and not at all scientific or anything) the fact that he gave Kaladin a trait from his wife and Shallan a trait from himself really indicates to me that these two are going to be a thing. I don't know, maybe that's really goofy of me to assume, particularly because Brandon is such an amazing writer and I don't think he would write himself or Emily into his books. But still, the fact that these traits are drawn from the two of them was kind of like a little flag to me. What do you guys think? Am I just crazy, maybe? lol

I thought so too. When I read about BS comparing himself to Shallan and Kaladin to BS' wife, I think the possibility of Shallan ending up with Kaladin has increased. Just in my opinion.

 

 

Q: I really hope you're not going to do a love triangle between Kaladin, Adolin, and Shallan."

A: Brandon's response (which he worded quite carefully) was, "I'm not a fan of the traditional love triangle. However, I am fond of conflict in relationships." And he left it at that xD

I think BS is going to do an untraditional love triangle. So he's going to write something about it just for the heck of making the relationship between the main characters more complicated.

 

[Aleksiel]

A 'traditional love triangle' to me is one in which the girl (it could be a boy if it was a triangle with a boy and two girls, but that's not the case here) is toying in one way or another with the two boys not being able to decide who she wants for a while until she settles for one of them. So I think it's save to say this won't happen considering Brandon's answer. 

 

Nontraditional ways to deal with it: 

 

Shallan staying with Adolin?  Nah, there won't be much of a conflict between them, so probably not. Too easy to happen.

 

Shallan and Kaladin? Well, that's kind of a traditional outcome, the girl leaving one of the guys for the other, so I'd say no.

 

Shallan with non of them? Possible, especially if someone else catches her attention. This kind of escapes the 'love triangle path' with Adolin and Kal, and creates new conflicts depending on the guy she picks. One of the Ghostbloods would create a whole new level on trouble. Though it would mean another triangle if she doesn't break up with Adolin before it, so probably won't happen. (Well, there's always the chemistry between Kal and Adolin. I'm joking.. sort of. But I could spare my Jasadin ship for Kadolin   What's more nontraditional than this outcome? Unlikely, but still funny to toy with the idea.) Or Shallan could just stay alone and become a worldhopper and end up in later books with someone from another world or be alone like Hoid. Though I'm not convinced Shallan being single fits the nontraditional requirement.

 

Shallan and both of them? Well, that's definitely nontraditional, especially if pulled WoT style, but I doubt Brandon will use it. There's the Navani solution - marry one of them, wait till they die, seduce the other one. But Brandon used this already and as much as symmetry is important to the world of Roshar I doubt he will resolve the same problem in the same way, because it's kind of predictable and Brandon is not predictable in his writing.

 

Adolin could be the one ending their relationship, but that would make things a bit too easy for Shallan, so no conflict which is not what we're looking for. We know Drehy will get a boyfriend somewhere in the series. I'm not implying anything, but 

 

Any other nontraditional outcomes I'm missing? 

[dhazellouise]

Q: I really hope you're not going to do a love triangle between Kaladin, Adolin, and Shallan."

A: Brandon's response (which he worded quite carefully) was, "I'm not a fan of the traditional love triangle. However, I am fond of conflict in relationships." And he left it at that xD

 

"I'm not a fan of the traditional love triangle."

-When BS said this, I don't think he means that he's not going to write about it. Actually, when he said "However" after those words I felt like he was saying something like this. "I'm not a fan of the traditional love triangle, but if it add conflicts to the present relationship. I won't mind doing a traditional love triangle."

 

I don't know... When he said "However". It sounded like that to me...

He may not be fond of the traditional love triangle. It doesn't necessarily mean that BS would not write about it. As long as he gets to add lots of conflicts in the the characters relationship. 

 

Well, thats what I think when I read his answer.

I will disregard the idea of the untraditional love triangle.

Edited March 22, 2014 by dhazellouise

[darkanimereal1]

"I'm not a fan of the traditional love triangle."

-When BS said this, I don't think he means that he's not going to write about it. Actually, when he said "However" after those words I felt like he was saying something like this. "I'm not a fan of the traditional love triangle, but if it add conflicts to the present relationship. I won't mind doing a traditional love triangle."

 

I could see this too. Honestly, as several people have mentioned already, it's Brandon. I'm sure I'll love what he writes one way or the other, because  he always does an excellent job. For instance, when I first noticed that he was starting something between Kaladin and Shallan, my first reaction was, "Urgh! No! I don't think they'll work at all!" And by the end of it (particularly after the chasm scene), I was hooked anyways, because the writing and character development and attention to detail were all just beautiful. lol

[dhazellouise]

For instance, when I first noticed that he was starting something between Kaladin and Shallan, my first reaction was, "Urgh! No! I don't think they'll work at all!" And by the end of it (particularly after the chasm scene), I was hooked anyways, because the writing and character development and attention to detail were all just beautiful. lol

To be honest, I never liked Shallan in The Way of Kings. I find her annoying and I had to skip her chapter when I first read tWoK. But in the second and third reread, I had to read her chapter, albeit begrudgingly. Even when WoR haven't come out yet, I already suspected that Shallan will be paired up with either Adolin or Kaladin. At first, I wanted Shallan to be paired with Adolin coz I find them both annoying...ahaha...However, when I read WoR, especially the interaction between Shallan and Kaladin. I changed my mind. I no longer find Shallan annoying, mainly because of her argument with Kaladin which I think is funny....ahaha.. Although, I still have to skim through Shallan's chapter in WoR during my first read.

[Wolven]

Hmm, a lot of people are saying that they hate love triangles, and...I agree.  I prefer love to be straight up pure love.  That being said, I just think Kaladin is a better match for Shallan than Adolin is.  Though that could be because I have always enjoyed the stories of opposites attacting. 

 

Though, it almost seems to obvious for Kaladin and Shallan to be together by the end.  I mean, they are opposites in a lot of aspects all the way to the fact that their Spren are not going to like each other.  That and their obvious connection moment when they both realize what absolutely horrible lives the other has lived.

 

On the other hand, Adolin seems to be leaning towards the darker side of things.  Also, he is one of the characters I have pegged for death by the end of the series.  I usually have a decent instinct for that sort of thing.

 

I saw a few people talking about Jasnah and Kaladin getting together and holy crap would that ever be awesome.  I like Jasnah a little more than I do Shallan.  However, I have this feeling that Jasnah is not going to end up in a romance in these books.  I hope she does, but it just feels like...she's going to end up dead before that can happen for her, her penchant for avoiding death not withstanding. 

 

Though, Kaladin is about to head out to rescue his parents...Jasnah is out and about in the world to...ya never know, they might just meet up. 

Edited March 23, 2014 by Wolven

[Locke Lamora]

-Major Spoilers Ahead-

 

I honestly don't understand why everyone thinks love triangles have to end up in disasters, I think they can be nicely pulled off (although, I admit, most times they are not), more so with the Brandon's increasing skill in writing ever since he finished the Mistborn trilogy.

 

I think it is obvious by all ques we can gather from the WoR that Kaladin is somehow going to be involved with Shallan or that Shallan is not going to end up with Adolin at the very least. I mean, just using the theme of the book with the relationship between the truths and lies (all from Shallan's chapters), it is obvious that the only time Shallan was truly honest was with Kaladin. On the other hand, she all but lied to Adolin about nearly everything she was doing besides a couple of details she accidentally blabbed out. Her relationship with Adolin is all but unstable, ready to fall under any sort of pressure. Looking at it purely on basis whether they can work as a couple it is going to fail as well. Everything Shallan commented so far about Adolin was physical, it was either about his hair, eyes, hair again, his charm, did I mention his hair? Not once was she impressed by his personality as she was when she was talking to Kaladin. They not only bonded during that Highstorm, they understood each other and Kaladin was on a high enough level of intelligence to actually understand Shallan beyond the simple chatter. I mean, she had to explain to Adolin that he was being mocked and not praised by Kaladin on one occasion, how pathetic is that? If Adolin can not even think of keeping up with Shallan in regard of intelligence, would she really find him satisfactory? Furthermore, with Adolin's sudden lean to the darkside at the end (same temptation Kaladin avoided), would they really be a good pair? I personally dont think so. Finally, to the arguments that her marriage to Adolin would be the opportune thing to do for her family, she already abandoned her family for a greater cause once and it is obvious by the threat of Everstorm that nobody is going to be safe anywhere regardless of their means which all doesn't go in favor of her current engagement. Hence, I strongly believe that Adolin and Shallan are not going to end up/continue being together. Their relationship is too shallow for that to happen.

 

With regard to who is she going to end up with, for now, Kaladin has the best chance. He is the only person (outside of her family) she ever talked about killing her father, which she will never be able to tell Adolin. They bonded in the Highstorm, he is intelligent enough to keep up with her thinking patterns and has the same background in suffering she has bringing them close together. Chapters after their Highstorm together from Shallan's POV can be seen to have been impacted by Kaladin in a way that she stopped calling him a bridgeman and started referring to him by his name and sometimes even mentioning him before mentioning Adolin himself. Not to mention that looking at it from Kaladin's perspective, it is the only thing to make sense. She did not open himself (entirely) to anyone, including his bridgemen. With the exception of a little detail about her brother; which, I do admit, might be a problem when (rather than if) she finds out. Finally, she is the only storming girl he thought about for last 2000 pages besides that T- girl he mentions from time to time.

 

All in all, I am very curious to see where this is all going to go since Sanderson knows how to surprise when things seem to be very straightforward and predictable.

[darkanimereal1]

@Lamora

 

Okay, I'm a rather big Shalladin fan (just wanted to point that out as context for this post). That being said, I think that there are a few things you're misreading about Shallan's relationships. I think the general picture you have is pretty much right, but some of the details you pointed out I don’t agree with.

 

First off, although I do agree that Shallan was far more honest with Kaladin than she ever was with Adolin, I wouldn't go so far as to say that that's a deal breaker. I mean, I’m fairly certain that this will be the case:  I really don’t picture things working out between Shallan and Adolin. However, one of the things that I love about Brandon more than anything else is his ability to take my expectations and completely shred them to pieces with fantastic twists. Interestingly enough, one of the biggest twists in WoR (for me personally) was the development of Shallan’s relationship with Kaladin. Based on TWoK, I did not expect this. However, it was hinted at in WoR even before the two of them met (see my earlier post about the horses), so I wasn’t very surprised by the progression of their relationship as the book went on. Honestly, this kind of bummed me out, I think mostly because I was taken off guard. I was expecting not to be able to see where his plot was going, and there were a lot of things that happened in this book that were obvious from early on (not all, but a lot).

 

That being said, I don’t think we should be lulled into a false sense of complacency. Just because Adolin and Shallan’s relationship has been very shallow so far does NOT mean that there is zero chance of them staying together for the long run (which, from your wording, is what you seem to be implying). Both Adolin and Shallan have a lot of character growth to do (Adolin in particular), and we know for a fact that Brandon is “fond of conflict in relationships.” (That is word for word what I overheard him telling the person in front of me at the signing ). Based on all of this, even though I agree that it is highly unlikely that things will work out between Adolin and Shallan (due to their rather shallow relationship and Shallan’s inability to be truthful with him so far, as well as a myriad of other reasons), I wouldn’t quite write it off just yet. I highly agree with what you said:  Sanderson knows how to surprise.

 

Now that I have that generalization out of the way, I also wanted to comment on a few little things.

 

 

Not once was she impressed by his personality as she was when she was talking to Kaladin.

 

I actually disagree with this. True, the vast majority of Shallan’s thoughts about Adolin (particularly from her PoV) are physical and very shallow. But you’re forgetting a key part of the scene when Shallan defended Adolin while talking with Kaladin. I don’t have my book on me, so I can’t quote it, but I think Shallan does admire Adolin. He’s very genuine and makes people feel at ease (Shallan points out him playing around with the others--I think they were kids?). She’s rather sarcastic when she tells Kaladin, “Oh yeah, Adolin is so hard to get along with.” I think this is one of Adolin’s traits that Shallan is really drawn to. Adolin is very personable and friendly. So even though Shallan tends to focus on the physical attributes, I think she’s well aware of his other ones as well.

 

 

I mean, she had to explain to Adolin that he was being mocked and not praised by Kaladin on one occasion, how pathetic is that? If Adolin can not even think of keeping up with Shallan in regard of intelligence, would she really find him satisfactory?

 

Okay, I have mixed feelings about this. You make a good point when you point out that Shallan probably won’t find Adolin a match for her intelligence-wise. This has been discussed at length in the thread already (I mean, what hasn’t? We’re at almost 20 pages now. Lol). This is one of the biggest reasons I’m fairly certain that Shallan will wind up with Kaladin and not Adolin--Shallan and Kaladin have the same kind of intelligence, and they’re both very witty and quick with quips. The quips, in particular, are key. Since her mother’s death, quips have been the way that Shallan shows her love and affection for those around her (starting with her brothers). The fact that Adolin doesn’t get this and Kaladin does (or at least seems to) indicates to me which one will win in the end.

 

HOWEVER. (…Yes, the caps are necessary.) I don’t think Adolin is pathetic, and I don’t think Shallan does either. Kaladin was purposely speaking in a roundabout fashion so that Adolin wouldn’t realize he was being insulted. That’s a pretty sly way of insulting someone, and not particularly nice. How can someone defend themselves if they don’t realize they’re being attacked? In fact, based on Shallan’s reaction, she seems to think that it’s Kaladin, and not Adolin, who is pathetic in that situation. And I agree. Beyond that, Shallan points out at least once (I think a few times) that Adolin is not stupid. Because he isn’t. He’s very smart, just in different ways. Just like Kaladin and Shallan are both strong people, just in different ways. There isn’t just one kind of “smart,” and then you’re either intelligent or you’re not. And Shallan gets that. However, like I said, I think Kaladin has the same kind of smarts as Shallan, which makes them fit together more nicely.

 

As for Adolin killing Sadeas. Um, not quite sure I agree with your assessment. I think it will definitely throw a wrench in Adolin and Shallan’s relationship. However, Shallan knows all too well what it’s like to kill someone in the moment. For different reasons, yes, but she still knows. So I’m not quite sure that what you’re assuming will be true. And her family… I have mixed feelings on this (not just what you said here, but what a lot of people have said). Shallan’s family is very tattered, and I also think they’re very vulnerable. I wouldn’t be surprised if they play a much bigger role in Shallan’s relationships than everyone here seems to assume. Just because her family is currently promised to arrive safely at Urithiru doesn’t mean much. I mean, it’s Mraize who made that promise. Mraize. I have a feeling there’s going to be a catch.

 

All of this being said, I completely agree with your very first point:  I think if anyone can pull of a love triangle (in any form), it’s Brandon.

[Locke Lamora]

@darkanimereal1

 

Ok, I have to admit, I was a bit harsh.. ok, really harsh on Adolin in my post. It has probably a lot to do with WoR still fresh in my mind since I finished it just recently.We all know what Adolin's last actions were, and to be honest, I was extremely disappointing with his character when he killed Sadeas, that is probably my main reason for the harshness. To his credit, I actually liked Adolin quite a lot in WoR, way more than in tWoK, because he seemed to have developed quite a bit, especially in his PoV's.

 

That said, I wanted to bring a little bit of context to my argument. I have a feeling there are a few wholes in it  

 

 

Just because Adolin and Shallan’s relationship has been very shallow so far does NOT mean that there is zero chance of them staying together for the long run (which, from your wording, is what you seem to be implying). 

 

I completely agree that there is still chance for Adolin and Shallan to continue/start having a functional relationship. I might have exaggerated a little bit in my statement about the shallowness of their relationship and I did not go over one of the very important aspects which is Adolin's own perspective. It can clearly be seen that Shallan is something else in context of his past relationships, from the time he sees her at the very beginning. Their conversations while courting also brought the sense of deviation from his past experiences, mostly due to Shallan's filtering failure she seems to be having a problem with haha. Which leads me to believe it will be devastating for him if he ends up attracting himself too much to Shallan just to end up being pushed away. Also, I forgot to mention that instance when Shallan literally hisses at him that she doesn't need protection right after she returns from the Highstorm which might evolve into a bigger issue because Alodin is used to being a protective figure (especially due to his brother).

 

 

True, the vast majority of Shallan’s thoughts about Adolin (particularly from her PoV) are physical and very shallow. But you’re forgetting a key part of the scene when Shallan defended Adolin while talking with Kaladin. I don’t have my book on me, so I can’t quote it, but I think Shallan does admire Adolin. He’s very genuine and makes people feel at ease (Shallan points out him playing around with the others--I think they were kids?). She’s rather sarcastic when she tells Kaladin, “Oh yeah, Adolin is so hard to get along with.” I think this is one of Adolin’s traits that Shallan is really drawn to. Adolin is very personable and friendly. So even though Shallan tends to focus on the physical attributes, I think she’s well aware of his other ones as well.

 

 

As you say, I might have also exaggerated on the shallowness of their relationship from her point of view as well. She does have something other than physical attraction in her relationship with Adolin, I just find it not significant enough to matter. Even before Kaladin came to the picture, I felt Adolin was more a distraction from the hardships she was enduring than anything else. It did grow eventually, so there is still a slight chance for them. But, if it continues to be driven in the physical way (both with looks and family situation) and she doesn't find a way to completely open herself up to him, its just awaiting a disaster. Or it would be a dysfunctional relationship with only Adolin being truly invested.

 

 

As for Adolin killing Sadeas. Um, not quite sure I agree with your assessment. I think it will definitely throw a wrench in Adolin and Shallan’s relationship. However, Shallan knows all too well what it’s like to kill someone in the moment. For different reasons, yes, but she still knows. So I’m not quite sure that what you’re assuming will be true.

 

Here though, I have to disagree (in regard of it not just being a wrench but a deal breaker). I read it more than once where people keep saying Shallan killed her dad in cold blood, which in my opinion is completely wrong. Shallan's father killed his wife and than started stabbing his own son and ordered an assassin to kill his other son; if someone did not put a stop to him, he would have killed more - making Shallan's actions more a self-defense than in cold blood. What other way would she have killed him but poison when his own son was not able to best him in swordplay and she was a sixteen year old girl. Adolin on the other hand, killed Sadeas completely in cold blood. Sadeas did what he always did, he bragged how he was going to ruin Dalinar and all of his plans. He did it multiple times throughout the book and he was as much a threat to Dalinar in the beginning of WoR as in the end, maybe even more so in the beginning. So, him killing Sadeas in the end was brutal and cold and even though Shallan killed before, I dont see her accepting this (unless Adolin twists the truth).

 

I also remembered one of the most crucial points that I did not see anyone mention (although I did not read all 20 pages of posts so I might be very very wrong ) which is Shallan's most recant discovery that she was the one who killed her mother as well. Besides Allfather being a spren, that was the most predictable discovery in the epilogue in my opinion. Regardless, I have a feeling that this revelation is going to severely mess with Shallan's character and she might not even be relationship ready to begin with most of the following book. If that ends up being the case, Kaladin has far more chance to breach the wall she makes than Adolin.

 

Regardless of anything mentioned above, I am glad we are all confident in one thing - Brandon is going to own it no matter what ends up happening

[Chrono]

 

I actually disagree with this. True, the vast majority of Shallan’s thoughts about Adolin (particularly from her PoV) are physical and very shallow. But you’re forgetting a key part of the scene when Shallan defended Adolin while talking with Kaladin. I don’t have my book on me, so I can’t quote it, but I think Shallan does admire Adolin. He’s very genuine and makes people feel at ease (Shallan points out him playing around with the others--I think they were kids?). She’s rather sarcastic when she tells Kaladin, “Oh yeah, Adolin is so hard to get along with.” I think this is one of Adolin’s traits that Shallan is really drawn to. Adolin is very personable and friendly. So even though Shallan tends to focus on the physical attributes, I think she’s well aware of his other ones as well.

 

HOWEVER. (…Yes, the caps are necessary.) I don’t think Adolin is pathetic, and I don’t think Shallan does either. Kaladin was purposely speaking in a roundabout fashion so that Adolin wouldn’t realize he was being insulted. That’s a pretty sly way of insulting someone, and not particularly nice. How can someone defend themselves if they don’t realize they’re being attacked? In fact, based on Shallan’s reaction, she seems to think that it’s Kaladin, and not Adolin, who is pathetic in that situation. And I agree. Beyond that, Shallan points out at least once (I think a few times) that Adolin is not stupid. Because he isn’t. He’s very smart, just in different ways. Just like Kaladin and Shallan are both strong people, just in different ways. There isn’t just one kind of “smart,” and then you’re either intelligent or you’re not. And Shallan gets that. However, like I said, I think Kaladin has the same kind of smarts as Shallan, which makes them fit together more nicely.

 

 

 

I agree with this as well, especially with the whole "Adolin is stupid, so Shallan's going to dump him." 

 

First things first: Adolin is not dumb. He's not. Sure, he may be a little slow when it comes to witty sayings or cracking jokes, but he's a smart guy. His intelligence shines in a military setting: he uses the fact that the plateaus have buildings inside of them to attack the Parshendi, for example. He's extremely talented at dueling as well, which requires a lot of strategic thinking and practice. Dueling is not all about swinging a sword fancy-like to impress the ladies. In dueling, you have to read your opponent, figure out which moves will spoil his moves, and find a quick and low-risk way to end the battle. Meanwhile, your opponent's thinking the same thing. The fact that Adolin can easily best most people and is only really challenged with four combatants says something about his intelligence.

 

I have several friends who are quite intelligent; they're just intelligent in different ways. One of my friends is very good in social situations: she's extremely good at reading people, finding out what their problem is, and helping them solve it. However, she struggles with tests. Would you say she is dumb? I am a very talented person at tests, but I am physically uncoordinated. Would you say I'm stupid?

 

The point I'm trying to make here is NOT that Adolin and Shallan are compatible. I don't think they are, and I'm certainly rooting for the Shalladin ship. It just bugs me, however, when people say that Adolin's "stupidness" will be a detriment to the relationship. Adolin is smart, and Shallan likes him even though he's not that fast in wordplay (although judging from her thoughts, this may change...) I believe that other, more significant things will get in the way: Shallan hiding the truth about her family, for example. Heck, at the end of WoR, she hadn't even told Adolin entirely about how she was a Knights Radiant! There are definite trust issues running through the relationship. 

 

Okay, rant over. Proceed with your lives.

[Grayv]

I like all these rants. And remember, if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it will spend the rest of its life thinking that it is stupid.

[Mr Horrible]

The fact that Adolin can easily best most people and is only really challenged with four combatants says something about his intelligence.

 

I would point out here that Adolin was clearly outmatched with 4 opponents, in that same fight it was pointed out to be fair when it was Adolin vs 2 shard bearers, although adolin had already taken some damage there so I'd bump it up to possibly 3 if he's fresh and in top form.

[darkanimereal1]

Ok, I have to admit, I was a bit harsh.. ok, really harsh on Adolin in my post. It has probably a lot to do with WoR still fresh in my mind since I finished it just recently.We all know what Adolin's last actions were, and to be honest, I was extremely disappointing with his character when he killed Sadeas, that is probably my main reason for the harshness. To his credit, I actually liked Adolin quite a lot in WoR, way more than in tWoK, because he seemed to have developed quite a bit, especially in his PoV's.

 

Dude, I totally hear you. Honestly, I think I was rather harsh on Adolin after I first read it too. Because it's like, SHALLAN AND KALADIN ARE SO AMAZING. Hahaha. But I've had a solid week to let it all simmer and stop obsessing over them, plus to read through twenty pages of other people's opinions, so I've gone a bit softer on Adolin since then. Def not trying to rip you down, just wanted to throw my own thoughts in

 

 

As you say, I might have also exaggerated on the shallowness of their relationship from her point of view as well. She does have something other than physical attraction in her relationship with Adolin, I just find it not significant enough to matter. Even before Kaladin came to the picture, I felt Adolin was more a distraction from the hardships she was enduring than anything else. It did grow eventually, so there is still a slight chance for them. But, if it continues to be driven in the physical way (both with looks and family situation) and she doesn't find a way to completely open herself up to him, its just awaiting a disaster. Or it would be a dysfunctional relationship with only Adolin being truly invested.

 

I hear you on this, too. I'm totally not disagreeing. The vast majority of their relationship is built on physical attraction. Which isn't wrong, and there are other parts to it as well (like I pointed out). Still, I agree that I don't see enough depth in their relationship to indicate that they have enough to make a long term thing out of it. I mean, who knows. Could change in book three. But I do agree here, too

 

 

Here though, I have to disagree (in regard of it not just being a wrench but a deal breaker). I read it more than once where people keep saying Shallan killed her dad in cold blood, which in my opinion is completely wrong. Shallan's father killed his wife and than started stabbing his own son and ordered an assassin to kill his other son; if someone did not put a stop to him, he would have killed more - making Shallan's actions more a self-defense than in cold blood. What other way would she have killed him but poison when his own son was not able to best him in swordplay and she was a sixteen year old girl. Adolin on the other hand, killed Sadeas completely in cold blood. Sadeas did what he always did, he bragged how he was going to ruin Dalinar and all of his plans. He did it multiple times throughout the book and he was as much a threat to Dalinar in the beginning of WoR as in the end, maybe even more so in the beginning. So, him killing Sadeas in the end was brutal and cold and even though Shallan killed before, I dont see her accepting this (unless Adolin twists the truth).

 

I also remembered one of the most crucial points that I did not see anyone mention (although I did not read all 20 pages of posts so I might be very very wrong  ) which is Shallan's most recant discovery that she was the one who killed her mother as well. Besides Allfather being a spren, that was the most predictable discovery in the epilogue in my opinion. Regardless, I have a feeling that this revelation is going to severely mess with Shallan's character and she might not even be relationship ready to begin with most of the following book. If that ends up being the case, Kaladin has far more chance to breach the wall she makes than Adolin.

 

Actually, when I said "Shallan knows all too well what it’s like to kill someone in the moment," I was actually referring to her killing her mom. I agree that there are major differences between Sadeas' murder and the murder of both of Shallan's parents. In fact, there's major differences between the murder of her father and mother as well. Adolin killed Sadeas in cold blood. Shallan killed her mother in (what I assume to be) unthinking, reflexive self defense. But Shallan had quite a bit of time to coolly assess and then execute her father's murder (this time not in self defense, but to protect her brother). I guess what I'm saying is that, although I really don't think that Shallan will be in any way okay with Sadeas' murder (to the contrary--the fact that Adolin killed him in rage actually seems very similar to Lin Davar's problem. Lin killed his second wife in a moment of pure fury, and I doubt that Shallan will be able to sympathize with that in any way, shape, or form), she at least knows what it's like to kill someone in a moment without really thinking it through: her mom. Again, the murders were fundamentally different, but I guess all I'm saying is that she at least has a similar situation. I'm not sure exactly how that will translate into their relationship, but I do think it will become important. Haha, I guess what I'm saying is that I agree with you, but for different reasons? Oh well

 

(I think I just enjoy discussing the romantic subplots way too much and am finding any excuse I can to continue to rant about them. Because I'm a hopeless romantic, and Brandon did not disappoint, in my eyes. There is so much complexity and detail worked into the relationships--not just romantic, but all of the character relationships--and having been an English major I'm just reveling in the chance to get to do some high profile analysis of this type of thing on my favorite fantasy series )

[Wolven]

Adolin and Shallan seem superficial to us, but they're such a perfect Vorin couple. Adolin can't even read glyphs, and spends all his time hitting people with things. And Shallan's art and scholarship are quickly becoming famous. Shallan is sincerely Vorin, and as long as she stays that way, I expect this is what she wants.

They're also a perfect celebrity couple, because Adolin is famous and Shallan will be soon. They'll have huge fan clubs together. And they're both murderers!

Perfect Vorin couple true, but I expect by the end of these books that Vorinism is going to be shattered beyond any hope for fixing it.

[Wolven]

I'm not able to catch up with all post from my last visit just a few hours ago, wow.

 

I'd like to point out that Shallan confided in Kaladin most likely because they were in mortal danger and suddenly keeping appearance was not as important to her. She felt the need to finally say it out out to someone at last. I honestly think she'd share the same with Adolin  in that situation. Nothing in her inner dialogue at that point made me think she felt special connection to Kal before she opened up.

I disagree. Adolin just really can't relate to Shallan in that way, at this point in his life, the way that Kaladin was able to. She knew that Kaladin had a terrible life, and her inner monologue might not have implied that connection, but I think it was there. Especially when the shared danger was taken into account.

Shallan and Adolin just don't have that same ability to relate to one another. Thus far, her attraction to him seems to be entirely physical.

[Aleksiel]

I disagree. Adolin just really can't relate to Shallan in that way, at this point in his life, the way that Kaladin was able to. She knew that Kaladin had a terrible life, and her inner monologue might not have implied that connection, but I think it was there. Especially when the shared danger was taken into account.

Shallan and Adolin just don't have that same ability to relate to one another. Thus far, her attraction to him seems to be entirely physical.

 

Wow, I posted this like 10 pages ago, can't believe someone bothered to read that far back 

 

Shallan isn't only physically attracted to Adolin (well, she's 17, what's so bad being attracted to a handsome prince anyway?) she thought he was genuine, kind and noble. But I don't mean it as an argumebt in favor to Shadolin, just adding people often miss it.

 

Anyway,I am of the opinion Shallan needed to finally say it out loud, at least some part of her truth. And there's still the fact Shallan talked about Adolin kissing her in public after they return, so it wasn't like she felt immediately drawn in a romantic manner to Kal. She was fighting these memories for the whole book and finally gave in in the chasms. I don't deny the fact Kal could somewhat relate was part of the reason she confided in him, but that just wasn't all there was.

 

However, she didn't share all of it , she still kept secrets like her mother's death. I personally think it would have been more powerful if we learned what happened in the chasm's scene and not in Urithiru, but this really isn't all that relevant.

 

I do not deny the possibility of Shalladin or the moment they share, I just don't think this alone is enough for a romance. However, this is just my opinion and I favor Jasadin (because reasons) and Shallan/Hoid pairing, so I shall sink with my ships   

 

edit: woops, wrong character

Edited March 28, 2014 by Aleksiel

[AyeJay]

However, she didn't share all of it , she still kept secrets like her mother's death. I personally think it would have been more powerful if we learned what happened in the chasm's scene and not in Urithiru, but this really isn't all that relevant.

 

edit: woops, wrong character

 

She didn't tell him about killing her mother at this point because she doesn't remember what happened until the end of the book. That was the truth Pattern had been pushing her to confront the whole book, but she kept blanking it out. 

[Chrono]

 

I would point out here that Adolin was clearly outmatched with 4 opponents, in that same fight it was pointed out to be fair when it was Adolin vs 2 shard bearers, although adolin had already taken some damage there so I'd bump it up to possibly 3 if he's fresh and in top form.

 

Which I why I said seriously challenged instead of "Doing just fine and dandy, ladies." Besides, luck is always a factor. If Adolin had managed to take down one shardbearer without getting hit, he might have been able to win on his own. Except, that didn't happen, as evidenced by Kaladin being awesome.

[Locke Lamora]

 

(I think I just enjoy discussing the romantic subplots way too much and am finding any excuse I can to continue to rant about them. Because I'm a hopeless romantic, and Brandon did not disappoint, in my eyes. There is so much complexity and detail worked into the relationships--not just romantic, but all of the character relationships--and having been an English major I'm just reveling in the chance to get to do some high profile analysis of this type of thing on my favorite fantasy series )

 

I completely understand you haha  although I think this addiction of thinking of Shallan's and Kaladin's relationship possibilities is slowly starting to leave me now that it has been a couple of days since I read the book However, I will never be tired of continuous rants about absolutely everything that can be speculated or analysed! And I totally agree with you, there are so many complex relationships that are not strictly romantic that have layers upon layers upon layers of complexity which can easily surprise you with some unexpected action that nobody saw coming (but once you realized why he/she did it, it makes complete sense). I honestly think WoR is my favorite fantasy novel up to date- that or a close tie with the Memory of Light.

Edited March 29, 2014 by Locke Lamora