Shallan's Relationship

[Chrono]

It's a new mindset, that "straight" isn't the default state of mind. Renarin's sexual and romantic preferences are not het until proven otherwise, they are unknown. And there's a difference in that. Like I said, this is very possibly a new idea for most people and it may even be an uncomfortable idea. But it's something to keep in mind.

 

Good point, Feather. I was just trying to point out that just because Renarin doesn't express interest in women doesn't mean that he's homosexual. It doesn't mean that he's heterosexual either. It just seemed that people were pointing to his spren being male as a sign of being gay, when I saw it as a sign of being whatever. To me, it doesn't really matter what his sexual preferences are. I was just trying to provide contrast.

 

If I offended anyone, sorry. 

 

[FeatherWriter]

No, actually you've been wonderfully reasonable about all of this! And I gave you an upvote for that! If you're curious at all about further discussions about heteronormativity on Roshar, I can send you (or anyone else who's curious) a PM with some great links to discussions of Rosharan heteronormativity and why it may not be quite as prevalent as you might assume. However, I don't want to derail the thread, and this is a Shallan shipping thread, so I won't go into crazy long length here.

[Nebty]

No, actually you've been wonderfully reasonable about all of this! And I gave you an upvote for that! If you're curious at all about further discussions about heteronormativity on Roshar, I can send you (or anyone else who's curious) a PM with some great links to discussions of Rosharan heteronormativity and why it may not be quite as prevalent as you might assume. However, I don't want to derail the thread, and this is a Shallan shipping thread, so I won't go into crazy long length here.

 

I'd also like a link to some of those discussions. It sounds fascinating. 

[Lhurgoyf]

If I can bring it back to the Shallan Shipping, i like thinking about it in terms of what it would do to the characters to be on the outside looking in. On Writing Excuses, Brandon always preaches that you should make plot decisions based on what would cause the most difficulty for the characters.

 

Shallan staying with Adolin probably wouldn't harm Kaladin much at all, they would just become closer platonic friends. Shallan would be perfectly happy (I actually think that her and Adolin get along better than most people here do: their best moments together are always when Shallan forgets her act) because remember, she's 17 and she loves a pretty face. Adolin obviously would be best off since Shallan is literally the perfect woman for him.

 

Adolin and Kaladin saying "Forget Shallan" and continuing their awesome bromance would be the most hilarious by far, but it wouldn't hurt anyone. Shallan would be fine, because that would happen around the tme she realizes Jasnah is alive, and I'm sure she could bury herself in her first love - studying.

 

Shallan bouncing back and forth between them would be soap operatic, which BS doesn't do, thankfully.

 

I'm most intrigued by what would happen if Shallan left Ad for Kal and they managed a rocky but ultimately succesful relationship. That would destroy Adolin. Here he is, having said multiple times that what he wants most in the world is for a relationship to work out, and he's found the perfect girl, and she leaves him for his new best friend. Ouch. This also helps because BS has implied that Alodin has a future as a Dustbringer, but Spren don't take on people who haven't been broken.

[loke13]

No, actually you've been wonderfully reasonable about all of this! And I gave you an upvote for that! If you're curious at all about further discussions about heteronormativity on Roshar, I can send you (or anyone else who's curious) a PM with some great links to discussions of Rosharan heteronormativity and why it may not be quite as prevalent as you might assume. However, I don't want to derail the thread, and this is a Shallan shipping thread, so I won't go into crazy long length here.

Would you mind sending me that link as well?

[Carlos Stormblessed]

I'm most intrigued by what would happen if Shallan left Ad for Kal and they managed a rocky but ultimately succesful relationship. That would destroy Adolin. Here he is, having said multiple times that what he wants most in the world is for a relationship to work out, and he's found the perfect girl, and she leaves him for his new best friend. Ouch. This also helps because BS has implied that Alodin has a future as a Dustbringer, but Spren don't take on people who haven't been broken.

 

Can I get the info you have on Brandon implying Adolin's future as a Dustbringer? I have heard that mentioned before but never read it myself. 

I think you can argue Adolin is broken in a number of ways. Maybe not as bad as Shallan or Kaladin, but he lost his mother, had to fight in a meaningless war, for a time thought his father was going crazy, and finally murdered a man in cold blood. I think you could argue for "broken." 

I do agree that it would be hard on Adolin for Shallan to choose Kaladin and Kaladin Shallan. It could push him over the edge for sure.

[darkanimereal1]

Would you mind sending me that link as well?

 

Ditto

[taveren]

not sure about murdering in cold blood thing sadeas basically told him to his face he planed on killing his father

[shadewolf]

I'm most intrigued by what would happen if Shallan left Ad for Kal and they managed a rocky but ultimately succesful relationship. That would destroy Adolin. Here he is, having said multiple times that what he wants most in the world is for a relationship to work out, and he's found the perfect girl, and she leaves him for his new best friend. Ouch. This also helps because BS has implied that Alodin has a future as a Dustbringer, but Spren don't take on people who haven't been broken.

 

And this is what I'm most afraid of. I really like the shalolin coupling, and feel that they work well together, in a similar same way to how Navani and Dalinar work well together. The Shaladin coupling is also good, and would work, but I hate the potential results of that from happening.

[darkanimereal1]

And this is what I'm most afraid of. I really like the shalolin coupling, and feel that they work well together, in a similar same way to how Navani and Dalinar work well together. The Shaladin coupling is also good, and would work, but I hate the potential results of that from happening.

 

I don't really view this as something to be afraid of.

 

Adolin has a lot of growing up to do. It was obvious in TWoK, and although he's made progress, it's obvious in WoR as well. I was pleasantly surprised by how well Adolin and Shallan got along in this book--it was definitely enjoyable to read. But from the very beginning of WoR, Adolin likes the idea of not having to choose his girlfriend. Although he doesn’t let it show, he’s rather disappointed that so many of his relationships haven’t worked out. But I think the problem with all of Adolin’s previous relationships was that he was with the girls for the wrong reasons (or, at least, wrong reasons for a long term relationship).

 

Even though Adolin quickly grows to like Shallan, I think he is still in this relationship for the wrong reasons. Deep down, I think he just wants for it to be over so he doesn’t have to worry about failing relationships any more. Even the way he words it to Kaladin kind of bugs me, cute though it is: “I really want to keep this one.” I don’t know, the way he phrases it kind of lumps Shallan in with all the others. It shows that he cares more about her than his other girlfriends, perhaps. But she’s still just “one” of them.

 

When Adolin finds a relationship and a girl that he wants to be with--not to make life easier, not because he’s afraid of failing, not because it’s what he’s supposed to do--then I will ship Adolin. And if that girl winds up being Shallan, then awesome. But I really won’t support Adolin in any relationship until he finds someone that he cares about so much that he will only pay attention to her. And so far, even Shallan can’t do that.

 

Beyond that, I think Shallan will realize that her relationship with Adolin is not working before he does. In the end, they both are in it for the wrong reasons. Yes, they like each other and they’re attracted to one another--they even admire one another. But I don’t think that’s enough to build a strong, healthy relationship off of. My thoughts are that Shallan will break it off. It’ll probably hurt Adolin immensely--once again, he’ll fail in a relationship. But I think that he’ll come out the other side having actually learned a lot about both himself and the nature of dating in general. Just like Shallan had to face the truth of her situation head on, I think this will be the kick in the butt Adolin will need to face the truth of his relationships head on.

 

Don’t get me wrong, his relationship with Shallan is a step forward from his previous ones. But I think it’s just a part of his character development as a whole.

[Nero Vance]

The thing I'm most afraid yet secretly hoping it happens is Kaladin falling in love with Shallan's darkeyed alterego one night. Like he's going "I'd never fall for a lighteyes, and I would never make a move on a friend's girlfriend. I have honour and--WHY HELLO THERE MYSTERIOUS BEAUTIFUL PERSON."

 

Then a sitcom would ensure. I have no idea if the result would end up being funny or tragic, but I'd laugh either way.

[Teccam]

The thing I'm most afraid yet secretly hoping it happens is Kaladin falling in love with Shallan's darkeyed alterego one night. Like he's going "I'd never fall for a lighteyes, and I would never make a move on a friend's girlfriend. I have honour and--WHY HELLO THERE MYSTERIOUS BEAUTIFUL PERSON."

 

Then a sitcom would ensure. I have no idea if the result would end up being funny or tragic, but I'd laugh either way.

 

I actually really like that. Though, I think there's also something to be said for Shallan being the first lighteyes woman that Kaladin finds himself attracted to (however grudgingly at first). Though, now that Kaladin is a lighteyes himself (again, however grudgingly) it would make for a nice inversion on that relationship — Kaladin falling for a darkeyes, even though he himself is now a lighteyes, and that darkeyes he falls for just happens to be Shallan as Veil. I'm not sure we should expect Shallan to be Veil enough for Kaladin to do more than catch glimpses of her though. And unless Shallan can learn to add sound to her illusions (including manipulating her own voice) then surely Kal would instantly identify Veil as Shallan from the moment she first speaks.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Teccam

[Konn]

I actually really like that. Though, I think there's also something to be said for Shallan being the first lighteyes woman that Kaladin finds himself attracted to (however grudgingly at first). 

Wasn't Laral a lighteyes? But, it is at least the first light eyes woman (assuming Tarah wasn't a light eyes) since Kaladin and his family being screwed over by light eyes, which I assume made him despise light eyes to begin with...

[Teccam]

Wasn't Laral a lighteyes? But, it is at least the first light eyes woman (assuming Tarah wasn't a light eyes) since Kaladin and his family being screwed over by light eyes, which I assume made him despise light eyes to begin with...

 

Yeah, you're right. At the time, he had no reason to hate lighteyes. But Laral was definitely a lighteyes so my comment wasn't correct.

[Guest Monster Energy]

Well, I certainly didn't read every single post here but my, oh, my there is quite the debate doing on.  I think we should shy away from any homosexual/transexual stuff as viewed through our own, personal, Earth world view, and try and determine what the situation for sexuality is on Roshar*

 

As far as I'm aware, there isn't anything that explicitly states that any character is gay or straight or anything else, though we do have Word of Brandon that Drehy is gay.  I really, really wish that that particular character was explored more!  There are so many questions!

 

Is he open about his sexuality?  If not, is it because it's oppressed in Altethi culture?  I imagine that, in the context of Alethi culture, homosexuality and transsexualism is definitely not approved of.  I mean, they have sex roles so strict it determines what types of foods you eat!  And, at the same time, they have Ardents who fit in to both/neither sex roles, so that's weird.  You'd think that if it was okay for an Ardent it'd be one small intellectual step for it to be okay for everyone.  Although, I think, the Ardents are not supposed to be sexual in any respect?  Maybe that's why they can perform both sex roles - because they aren't sexual?

 

And what about the Reshi Islands?  I've had a hypothesis in my head for a while now that they are a much more sexually liberated culture and that that is one of the reasons they attract so many people from other cultures.  Obviously it's entirely unsubstantiated, but it would sort of make sense if Vorin cultures oppressed every sexuality other than heterosexuality, and the Reshi Islands was an open minded escape for Vorin peoples. Just food for thought, I guess.

 

As far as the actual topic for this post...

 

...I don't know.  There's so much other important stuff going on that I don't know where Shallan would find the time for a relationship.  I'd rather see her focus her energies elsewhere, though I guess it would be possible for her to have a Vin/Elend dynamic with someone.  I'm just worried about her first real romantic relationship - that's the one where people are first learning how to be in a relationship, and it rarely works out.  I'd prefer it if she maybe had some friendly flings, but didn't try and settle down and commit to the first guy who flirted with her.  And yes, I say guy because Shallan strikes me as being straight.

 

FeatherWriter, on 13 Mar 2014 - 10:13 PM, said:

It's a new mindset, that "straight" isn't the default state of mind. Renarin's sexual and romantic preferences are not het until proven otherwise, they are unknown. And there's a difference in that. Like I said, this is very possibly a new idea for most people and it may even be an uncomfortable idea. But it's something to keep in mind.

 

Schrödinger's Sexuality!  You're right, I agree that it is unknown.  But if Roshar has similar sexuality to that of Earth's, then it's definitely safe to assume he's heterosexul, keeping in mind that it's unknown and being aware that you may be wrong.  You will, however, have a 95% chance of being correct (on Earth, who knows what it's like on Roshar.  Probably less because of Vorinism.).

 

*Obviously the humans on Roshar are heavily influenced by humans on Earth since Brandon Sanderson is, himself, a human (though I sometimes suspect he's a literature producing robot...) though I like to think that Rosharan's are distinctly different.  

[Seloun]

The thing I'm most afraid yet secretly hoping it happens is Kaladin falling in love with Shallan's darkeyed alterego one night. Like he's going "I'd never fall for a lighteyes, and I would never make a move on a friend's girlfriend. I have honour and--WHY HELLO THERE MYSTERIOUS BEAUTIFUL PERSON."

 

Then a sitcom would ensure. I have no idea if the result would end up being funny or tragic, but I'd laugh either way.

 

That sounds hilarious, but seems rather unlikely - Kaladin's probably going to be gone from Urithiru for much of the next book, and I'm not sure he'd even have an opportunity to interact with either of Shallan's personalities. I also wonder if she'd actually be able to fool him.

Kaladin also seem rather obsessive and focused. It'd probably have to be a pretty intense encounter for him to even get his mind in that direction; he's sort of the opposite of Adolin in that regard.

 

I was going to say that it was hard to imagine such a situation, given that Veil would probably be doing some questionable things, but actually it's pretty easy to think of a parallel - the 'escort' scene with Adolin in WoK. Now that I'm thinking about it, I could definitely see Kaladin intervening to protect someone who looked like they were in trouble and ruining Shallan's operation. Would be hilarious, though I don't know if it would actually result in a relationship. It would be kind of weird to have her pursue that so far.

[Kallandras]

I think Shallan and Kaladin may not end up together, but they're at least going to be together for a while.

They clearly both feel strongly for each other. Kaladin describes her as beautiful, opens up to her, and gets sullen when seeing her and Adolin together.  He also seems to respond to her presence in a similar way to how he did to Tien, in that even in the depths of his despair over losing Syl, she's able to make him smile and come out of his shell.

Shallan is noticing how her time with Adolin is less good than her time with Kaladin - she got distracted thinking about Kaladin when she "should" have been paying attention to Adolin, she tried to banter with Adolin like she had with Kaladin and found his response lacking, and again, she opened up to Kaladin very quickly.

However, there are a lot of conflicts that I think make it so that even if they're together, they're not storybook couple forever as soon as they decide to be together.

For one, Kaladin killed her older brother.  He knows it already, she doesn't.  When this gets revealed matters.  If Kaladin hides that he knew this, Shallan will probably feel thoroughly betrayed (it's not really in Kaladin's nature to do that, though).

Besides that, their spren are of types that practically hate each other.  If that's not a signal that their basic understanding of the world is going to be conflicted, I don't know what is.

Kaladin also has a strong desire to protect those he cares about.  Shallan expressed pretty clearly to Adolin that she hates being shut away and treated like something that needs protecting.  On the other hand, Kaladin has experience teaching newbies the ways of combat, and Shallan has some need of training so that she can put her Blade to use.

All in all, I can't say that they'll end up together, but I'm almost certain they'll at least be together for a while before the series is through.  I can't wait to see how it develops in the next book.

[MitchSpren2014]

Kaladin.

 

As much as I want Adolin - Shallan pairing, there are just a lot of things in the book that this will not be the case. (Sigh!)

 

First, they revealed their stories to each other which they never told even the most important people in their lives. Bridge Four didn't know Kaladin's story and Adolin doesn't know Shallan's dark secret.

 

Second, that scene before they went out to the Shattered Plains to search for the Oathgate and Shallan and Adolin were talking,"Shallan completely missed what Adolin said next." when she was thinking about Kaladin.

 

Third, when thinking about the boots he's wearing were the ones Shallan stole from him made Kalladin smile during Weeping when thoughts about Tien failed.

 

And lastly, Adolin and Shallan just fits perfectly!

 

I'm still praying for Shallan and Adolin though. I can't imagine what this will do to Adolin if Shallan chooses Kaladin.

[AerionBFII]

I hope she picks Adolin. Kaladin is my favorite character and i like Shallan but i think the chasm just made them bond and relax around each other. Other than thinking of Kaladin when talking to Adolin and in the chasm that was the only real time i can remember Shallan thinking of Kal that much. Plus she is the one that kissed him numerous times during the books.

 

I think Kaladin could find somebody else, he's a KR now and everybody knows it and more lighteyed than any king, could you imagine if the lighteyes tried to maneuver him into a political marriage? I love Kal and like i said he is my favorite character but he is so oblivious when it comes to women haha

[lookingglass]

Jeez this is a long conversation. I would have to go with Kaladin. Shallan doesn't seem to tell Adolin stuff like what she said to Kaladin and as most people know girls are less shallow than guys (sorry please don't hit me!) so she'll grow out of the thought of Adolin's pretty face and get with someone (i.e. Kaladin) who understands her entirely and she can be herself with. I can totally see Shallann telling Kaladin: " I'm off to do mysterious stuff as Veil. Watch the kids tonight!" and Kaladin saying: "Just get Lopen to babysit. I'm totally slumming it with you!"

[darkanimereal1]

I can totally see Shallann telling Kaladin: " I'm off to do mysterious stuff as Veil. Watch the kids tonight!" and Kaladin saying: "Just get Lopen to babysit. I'm totally slumming it with you!"

 

Bwa ha ha. For this, upvote.

[Guest Monster Energy]

 

 

Glys uses masculine pronouns actually! 

 

 

(Bold mine.) Interestingly enough, Renarin and Glys are the only surgebinder/spren pair of the same gender thus far! All the others are opposites. I was keeping a very close eye on that during my readthrough.

 

 

 

No, bold MINE.

 

What about Dalinar and the Stormfather?  They seem like the same sex to me...unless the Stormfather has an awfully big secret he's hiding.  

 

EDIT: I was hasty and didn't read all the comments after this one to see if it was brought up.  Seems like I...mist my chance. *dramatic sunglasses*

Edited March 15, 2014 by Monster Energy

[Aleksiel]

I'm not sure if Dalinar and the Stormfather counts. All other surgebinders were found by their spren and Dalinar chose the Stormfather; it's different.

[Havok]

Adolin, the theory that she was faking it with him is false to me, she tried to he what she thought he wanted but didn't know how to pull it off and it worked in her favor. There is an attraction to Kal but nothing more. She even talked kal intonseeing him in a better light.

I also don't see Kal being the type to take her away from adolin as they had a serious bromance happening and syl would would not be down for that either.

I think Kal and Jasnah make a good pairing better then kal and shallan for sure.

[DeployParachute]

Adolin, the theory that she was faking it with him is false to me, she tried to he what she thought he wanted but didn't know how to pull it off and it worked in her favor. There is an attraction to Kal but nothing more. She even talked kal intonseeing him in a better light.

I also don't see Kal being the type to take her away from adolin as they had a serious bromance happening and syl would would not be down for that either.

I think Kal and Jasnah make a good pairing better then kal and shallan for sure.

 

I would agree that I don't think I would precisely call Shallan's interactions with Adolin "faking it".  As others here have pointed out, she is just doing what most young people in her position would do when beginning to court or get to know someone they are interested.  YOu don't reveal everything to the other person right away, and there certainly is a measure of playing the person you think they want.  This dynamic, however, will disappear once the relationship reaches a certain point, and I just don't see Adolin and Shallan's personalities meshing once the relationship is ready to go deeper.

 

I do, however, disagree completely with your statement that "There is an attraction to Kal but nothing more".  Shallan has an attraction for both men, but when comparing the two attractions, the one that she has started to feel for Kaladan goes deeper.  Feeling lazy and eating chinese take out right now, so I won't go digging for quotes, but the majority of Shallan's descriptions of her attraction to Adolin are centered around the superficial physical appearance.  In fact, the one time that I've been able to find after many rereads where Shallan describes her likes for Adolin outside his handsomeness is only there to precede her own comparison of him to Kaladin:

 

 

He grinned, Shardplate helm hanging from his saddle so as to not mess up his hair.  She waited for him to add a quip to hers, but he didn't.  That was all right.  She liked Adolin as he was.  He was kind, noble, and genuine.  It didn't matter that he wasn't brilliant or...or whatever else Kaladin was.

Words of Radiance - 76 The Hidden Blade, p936

 

Yes, some very flattering things she says about Adolin.  However, there are plenty of kind, noble, and genuine men on Roshar, and I don't think Shallan can be satisfied by just these qualities alone.  She also expends more effort putting her feelings for Kaladin into words, and as a result, the next paragraph describing her feels for Kaladin completely dwarfs what she said about Adolin.  She even tried to stop herself from even trying to define her feelings for Kaladin, but ultimately something in her wouldn't let her shut that down, so she does it anyway.  This whole section read to me like:  "Kaladin would have said something clever back at me.  Well, that's ok, because Adolin is really...kind, and noble, and geniune.  That's all that should matter right? He doesn't have to challenge me or my intellect in any way, right?  But...but Kaladin..."

 

What Shallan is starting to feel or see in Kaladin, from my perspective at least, is the seed of a kind of relationship that will be deeper and more meaningful to her than the one she currently has with Adolin.  However Shallan, as we all know by now, can have a difficult time being honest with herself or her feelings, so expect to see her try her best to push whatever that thought she had about Kaladin down into the deepest recesses of her heart...for now.

 

Sanderson is masterful in his subtle crafting of the potential relationship between Kaladin and Shallan.  It is a very good literary technique he is using.  He gives you hints and teases of these two personalities meshing so well, but doesn't let his writing or you as the reader dwell on it.  He drops you clues in the words he uses to hint at what might be coming for these characters.  Ever notice how many of the times Shallan and Adolin share a kiss the word "force" or "forced" is embedded within that paragraph.  He does all these things, and then proceeds to hide it all by dropping this facade of the perfect budding romance between two lighteyed nobles in front.  This shrouds the issue in fog, and is there to keep us from knowing where he is going for certain, hence this lovely poll we have going.  I say all this because I retain doubts that Sanderson would spend this much time and effort on such writing, only to stick with Shallan's obvious first choice for the remainder of the series.  I could be completely wrong, and Sanderson may go completely in a different direction, but I don't think he will.

 

Also agree with you that Kal is not the type to take her away from Adolin.  If it happens, it will be because of Shallan's own choice.  I don't think Syl, despite her revulsion for Cryptics, would try to keep Kaladin away from something that could make him happy and value living his life.

 

And to wrap things up, just to satisfy my curiosity, can someone provide a nice response as to why they think Kal and Jasnah would make for a good match?  I see this argument made many times, but for the life of me, I just cannot see this.  What are others seeing that I am not?

Edited March 16, 2014 by DeployParachute