[OB] Oathbringer chapters 25-27

[ccgus]

Quote

“Pattern,” she shouted, thrusting her right hand forward. Luminescent fog formed there, becoming her Shardblade. Light escaped her lips, transforming her more fully into Radiant. Luminescent wisps trailed behind her, and she felt it chasing her. She charged into a small round chamber and skidded to a stop.

Am I the only one who thought Shallan was about to be encased in plate here?

[abh]

ok so dalinar killed evi

[Lightning]

The hard part about these flashbacks are that we are not seeing how Dalinar became the person he is now.  We are seeing a downward slide, not the upward path he eventually took to become a better man.  That is making it hard for me to like his character.  I need to understand how he got to where he is, especially since he was in such a low place--much lower than I would have thought possible given how noble he is now.

[frozndevl]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

I meant figuratively speaking 

[IntentAwesome]

I have been wondering why the mystery drawings would include horses specifically. The other two made sense as twisted versions of the Urithiru drawings, but horses seemed odd. But then I remembered that Renarin mentioned having Shallan draw Sureblood. 

We don’t know if she actually did. But if she did, then this could be a twisted version of that drawing. This makes me lean more towards the copycat spren being responsible for the drawings. It’s not just mimicking acts of harm, but mimicking and twisting other things as well. 

But how pervasive is it?

[Sparks]

Well, color me surprised, I’m famous!

[ScavellTane]

3 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

My thoughts/theory with regard to Adolin: 

We know originally Adolin did not have any viewpoints in Part 1, but people couldn’t remember who killed Sadeas.

My theory: Adolin is going to snap, and it is supposed to be a shock to the READERS because, aside from slight hints, he seems to be coping fine. Having Adolin’s viewpoint would render that moot, since we would be watching him crack. (It would also be redundant, as we are seeing that to a much greater extreme with Shallan.) Not having any viewpoint would leave readers confused, as there would have been no indication prior that he was the culprit.

I don’t think Adolin is coping as well as people think. He’s avoiding his father - or at least that’s how I’m reading Renarin taking his place. His viewpoints clearly show that he is trying to ‘not think’ about what happened, often by forcing himself to focus on something else. (Sound familiar?) He’s spending a lot of time doing a repetitive action that calms him (horse care). (Again, sound familiar?) He’s even more reactive then usual - as much as he hates Amaram there was a time he would have at least managed to keep it in an undertone.

So when is he going to break? Well, what better time than when Dalinar becomes King of Urithiru, Elhokar swears fealty and Adolin becomes HIGHPRINCE? Lots of witnesses, makes a giant mess for everyone, NO possible way to brush it under the rug... sounds perfect!

So basically, that’s my thoughts/theory on this.

(As an aside, I do think Adolin was right to tell Shallan; far too many people know and she was bound to find out. I think he did realize it bothered her; that’s why he tried to explain the circumstances. And she SEEMED to calm down; unlike us he can’t read her mind.)

Adolin is going to die either in a duel of some sort or executed... and then Renarin will bring him back and smuggle him out of Urithiru thus beginning his path to Radiance.

[Nymeros]

2 hours ago, Lightning said:

The hard part about these flashbacks are that we are not seeing how Dalinar became the person he is now.  We are seeing a downward slide, not the upward path he eventually took to become a better man.  That is making it hard for me to like his character.  I need to understand how he got to where he is, especially since he was in such a low place--much lower than I would have thought possible given how noble he is now.

That's going to take a lot of flashbacks. If I recall correctly, he was a bum until Gavilars death.

[Pattern]

5 hours ago, maxal said:

Also, this chapter isn't Dalinar witnessing anything, this is Dalinar living a relationship with Evi and well, he does not love her.

Dalinar also wishes the marriage would be finally done. With Vorin background we can assume that Dalinar and Evi have not been intimate, yet. So an important part of "love" is still missing. He could still grow to love her. Two years of courting might seem long, but with all the campaigning those two might have had precious little face to face time.

I also think that Evi loved Dalinar much more than the other way around. I also think it is too early to tell for sure.

2 hours ago, Lightning said:

The hard part about these flashbacks are that we are not seeing how Dalinar became the person he is now.  We are seeing a downward slide, not the upward path he eventually took to become a better man.  That is making it hard for me to like his character.  I need to understand how he got to where he is, especially since he was in such a low place--much lower than I would have thought possible given how noble he is now.

I think this is the lowest point he gets. In the end he realized he wanted to kill his brother and feels the proper amount of shame for it. Subsequently he swears to never become king. We know what his oath led to.

Also, we saw the final battle in the Alethkar unification. Further skirmishes to consolidate power would be on a lesser scale, so the Thrill would not be as prominent. It does not slowly leave for Dalinar until the nausea starts at WoK, but the circumstances should be better for Dalinar to keep it under control.

Of course there still is the event that drove Kadash to the Ardentia. It could have been this last figurative gory battle or something worse still. I tend to think this was it. From this flashback chapter on we probably will see the Backthorn leashing himself.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Pattern

[Toaster Retribution]

8 hours ago, FiveLate said:

This is not correct.  

Thanks for the correction, have an upvote! It appears the Coppermind is outdated then.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, maxal said:

And Shallan learns the truth in what has to pass as the worst possible way. Adolin didn't even notice it was a sensitive subject (he could have guessed) and Shallan, of course, closed up onto herself. This passage is going to give munitions to the Kaladin/Shallan shippers as yes, Adolin was an idiot, yeah, he didn't get it and yeah, it seems less likely than ever for Shallan to ever open up to Adolin.

It reflects Adolin's naivete. I wasn't too surprised, but man, I thought I was blunt and tactless sometimes, but Adolin is another level in that. Though, to be fair, Shallan didn't really react to the revelation, so I won't put too much blame on Adolin at the moment. Still, Adolin man... Not even a short question?

It is kinda why I hoped, that Kaladin would talk with Shallan about that... Adolin seems to lack the crem dung detector Kaladin has regarding when Shallan hides herself away, like how he immediately noticed in the carriage during the menagerie visit in WoR. Though maybe he still will, when he returns to Urithiru.

I'm still adamant, that Shallan needs to be confronted with those things, yet Adolin doesn't confront her with these things. Or no, he does, but doesn't pull through then. He definitely doesn't make it easier for Shallan, but it isn't even his fault. Poor guy.

I don't know if this particular scene will hinder Shallan from opening up to Adolin, but... as a general statement, I would agree, that she doesn't seem very ready for it right now.

7 hours ago, maxal said:

Shallan's reaction was hard to read: always closing up, always repressing... I got it she was doing it for her broken family's past, but Helaran was not part of this past. It somehow annoyed me she would react this way: the revelation didn't seem as if it were so terrible. I mean, murdering a Highprince ought to be a greater cause of anxiety and stress then finding out your dead brother was killed by another soldier you thought he was killed by. I still don't get why Shallan is so angry over anyone having killed Helaran. Maybe I am struggling with my own personal reaction because, if I were her, I'd hate Helaran for having abandoned them to go seek glory elsewhere. 

I'd feel the same regarding Helaran, but for Shallan family is everything. When Pattern said, that she would get her revenge on him, because she will kill him at the end of WoR, Shallan said, that she doesn't want revenge, but wants her family. Helaran is a part of that. She's not thinking like a rational person about it, but I can't really blame her.

Maybe Mraize's information, which I suspect is, that Mraize knows why Helaran was at the field of battle where he was killed by Kaladin, will help her get another perspective.

[kari-no-sugata]

8 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

A thought on Shallan tracking down this thing from Odium...

I had originally expected that this would be a much more complex task. But, with the latest chapters, Shallan has "met" it (assuming there's just one) and has gotten a better idea of what it does, what it reacts to and so on. She's also about to put a plan in motion to do something. Are we actually reaching the end-game here? It seems possible now.

A few more thoughts on this idea...

Since Shallan naturally has rather unique physical characteristics amongst the Alethi (red hair, slim build, light skin) it would probably be easy to turn herself into a target. Earlier on in Part 1 she clearly stated she could survive a major sword wound, so we might see that in practice. Though if she's going to make herself a target does that mean she needs to be stabbed twice (potentially)? In theory she could also make herself a target by Lightweaving a disguise similar to someone who has already been attacked but since there could be others who match the description that would be more open to chance.

Also, our unfriendly neighbourhood Dustbringer doubts the Desolations. Maybe Shallan will knock on her door and say: would you like to destroy some evil today?

[soyperson]

I really hope we get some Tezim/Ishar action next week. 

[WhiteLeeopard]

6 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

Adolin is going to die either in a duel of some sort or executed... and then Renarin will bring him back and smuggle him out of Urithiru thus beginning his path to Radiance.

That...wasn't something I had thought of but I could totally see something similar happening. I'm not convinced Adolin will be exiled/dissappear as that would get him out of the narrative as he has very few pov. But I could see Adolin been killed, then Renarin reviving him in the nick of time. 

[king of nowhere]

Strangely I don't find dalinar's chapters particularly brutal. Oh, the first one was a shock, that for sure. But after that...

The thing is, I read so many comments of people saying that they would get much worse and putting stuff under spoilers that I would not dare to read, that eventually I ended up imagining something even worse than the reality. Like, I imagined a scene where dalinar, after killing the last enemy on the battlefield, turned to attack his elites while ordering them to offer him a proper challenge and killed them all (possibly while they dropped their weapons and tried to reason with him), except for kadash.

In the end, the truth turned out to be much milder than what I assumed, and so I wasn't horrified in the slightest by those subsequent chapters. In retrospect, dalinar having killled some of his own men without realizing it should be pretty horrifying, but I don't feel it because it pales compared to what I imagined.

It reminds me a time when a professor explained us principles of pshycology by reading us a letter from a college student who went like "hello parent, I got pregnant from a drug addict who also got me some STD, and my house burned down. Oh! Just joking, I actually dropped out of school" To which the parents were supposed to react with "whew! well, dropping out is not really that bad...". Dalinar's chapters and their expectations got me a similar mechanism.

[Subvisual Haze]

9 hours ago, ccgus said:

Am I the only one who thought Shallan was about to be encased in plate here?

I did too, especially when shortly thereafter she sees illusionary forms of herself running around her.  It reminded me of Kaladin being surrounded by the windspren before they scattered during his fight with Szeth.

Possibly related to the huge amount of stormlight she was utilizing to preform her illusion?

[Kingsdaughter613]

And I read it thinking “what kind of idiot puts regular troops around the beserker?” There is a reason RL berserkers usually went ahead of the army... and usually fought only with other berserkers. They were shocktroops. And possibly drugged... they also experienced emotional deadness once the berserk state faded, along with a loss of strength.

There are a lot of similarities between Dalinar’s experience with the Thrill and the RL berserk state.

[soyperson]

Wait, y'all- you know how investiture can develop sentience? What if that's what's going on with Shallan's illusions? Perhaps they're seeming to develop "a mind of their own" because they are?

[frozndevl]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

Strangely I don't find dalinar's chapters particularly brutal. Oh, the first one was a shock, that for sure. But after that...

The thing is, I read so many comments of people saying that they would get much worse and putting stuff under spoilers that I would not dare to read, that eventually I ended up imagining something even worse than the reality. Like, I imagined a scene where dalinar, after killing the last enemy on the battlefield, turned to attack his elites while ordering them to offer him a proper challenge and killed them all (possibly while they dropped their weapons and tried to reason with him), except for kadash.

In the end, the truth turned out to be much milder than what I assumed, and so I wasn't horrified in the slightest by those subsequent chapters. In retrospect, dalinar having killled some of his own men without realizing it should be pretty horrifying, but I don't feel it because it pales compared to what I imagined.

It reminds me a time when a professor explained us principles of pshycology by reading us a letter from a college student who went like "hello parent, I got pregnant from a drug addict who also got me some STD, and my house burned down. Oh! Just joking, I actually dropped out of school" To which the parents were supposed to react with "whew! well, dropping out is not really that bad...". Dalinar's chapters and their expectations got me a similar mechanism.

Thank you so much for posting this. I feel the exact same way about these flashbacks. 

[Aminar]

16 minutes ago, bleeder said:

Wait, y'all- you know how investiture can develop sentience? What if that's what's going on with Shallan's illusions? Perhaps they're seeming to develop "a mind of their own" because they are?

So she's making Spren? I doubt it. That takes more power or time or belief tha  she's had. And they would have to constantly exist as investiture. 

[soyperson]

1 minute ago, Aminar said:

So she's making Spren? I doubt it. That takes more power or time or belief tha  she's had. And they would have to constantly exist as investiture. 

What do you suppose her illusions are made of, then? The story she told seemed rather potent.

Edited October 25, 2017 by bleeder

[Aminar]

5 minutes ago, bleeder said:

What do you suppose her illusions are made of, then? The story she told seemed rather potent.

Stormlight and imagination she hasn't learned to focus into things she hasn't drawn yet. 

[AbsentKeeper]

18 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

YESSSS! I have the same feeling, but I can't put my finger on it why. UGHHH! It's frustrating!  

I've been on a quest, searching everything I can think of for a story featuring a girl climbing a wall that turns out to have stairs on the outside, I cannot find anything anywhere though.

Several of the specific details stood out to me as familiar as well, though: the twisted faces in the wall, the fact that the people were meant to be trapped inside for some reason, and the girl tying a hammock from scarves (or maybe from something else)

I think I'm going to go crazy trying to figure this out.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[vividox]

11 hours ago, Hemalurgic_Headshot said:

One thing that is really coming out at me: Urithiru has a spren.

We know that lots of things have spren. Recall when Shallan first entered Shadesmar, and she encountered the cupspren, thingspren #2, etc, and she looks further and sees the palace. Palacespren. Urithiru is definitely distinctive enough to have its own spren, especially how other spren and Shallan act around/in it. Note the strata description, which furthers Urithiru as more than a building.

Now we have H. P. Kandraspren that has been haunting up the place. The popular theory is that this eldritch monstrospren is an Unmade, and I agree. But I feel that this spren was not originally warped by Odium. The Urithiruspren is ancient, and Odium warped it, making it into one of his demonthings. That is why it is Urithiru, why there is something so wrong about that place.

There has to be a reason why that spren is in Urithiru.

This made me LOL.

[heridfel]

20 hours ago, JoyBlu said:

Oathbringer Preface
Oathbringer Preface Chapters 1-27 spoiled for length

  Reveal hidden contents

I’m certain some will feel threatened by this record. Some few may feel liberated. Most will simply feel that it should not exist. (1)

I needed to write it anyway. (2)

I know that many women who read this will see it only as further proof that I am the godless heretic everyone claims. (4)

I can point to the moment when I decided for certain this record had to be written. I hung between realms, seeing into Shadesmar—the realm of the spren—and beyond. (5)

I thought that I was surely dead. Certainly, some who saw further than I did thought I had fallen. (6)

I did not die.

I experienced something worse.(7)

That moment notwithstanding, I can honestly say this book has been brewing in me since my youth. (8)

The sum of my experiences has pointed at this moment. This decision. (9)

Perhaps my heresy stretches back to those days in my childhood, where these ideas began. (10)

I ask not that you forgive me. Nor that you even understand. (12)

I ask only that you read or listen to these words. (13)

In this record, I hold nothing back. I will try not to shy away from difficult topics, or paint myself in a dishonestly heroic light. (14)

I will express only direct, even brutal, truth. You must know what I have done, and what those actions cost me. (15)

For in this comes the lesson. (16)

It is not a lesson I claim to be able to teach. Experience herself is the great teacher, and you must seek her directly. (17)

You cannot have a spice described to you, but must taste it for yourself. (18)

However, with a dangerous spice, you can be warned to taste lightly. I would that your lesson may not be as painful as my own.  (20)

I am no storyteller, to entertain you with whimsical yarns. (21)

I am no philosopher, to intrigue you with piercing questions. (22)

I am no poet, to delight you with clever allusions. (23)

I have no doubt that you are smarter than I am. I can only relate what happened, what I have done, and then let you draw conclusions. (24)

I will confess my murders before you. Most painfully, I have killed someone who loved me dearly. (25)

I will confess my heresy. I do not back down from the things I have said, regardless of what the ardents demand. (27)

 

Thank you for consolidating those prefaces. My hope is that whoever the in-universe author is, it's someone who isn't used to writing. The sentence structure is so simplistic that it hurts me to read it all at once. That makes sense when the out-of-universe goal is "let's come up with something that I can break up and put in the front of chapters of my book", but the main effect in-universe (intended or not) is that the author is a drill and the reader and her listeners are the materials being drilled. It suggests a personality like Dalinar's, but the text itself doesn't support his being the author very well.