[OB] Oathbringer chapters 25-27

[Samaldin]

It seems like the vast majority agrees Adolin was to blunt/straightforward when he told Shallan it was Kaladin who killed her brother, but honestly i think he did the right thing! When he realized she didn´t connect the dots what else should he have done? If she would have found out he knew later it could have severly damaged hers and Adolins relationship. If she found out, while talking to Kaladin no one knows how she would react and Adolin likes both of them, he wouldn´t want them to have a, potentially extrem, falling out. I honestly see no better option than to tell her immediatly.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Samaldin said:

It seems like the vast majority agrees Adolin was to blunt/straightforward when he told Shallan it was Kaladin who killed her brother, but honestly i think he did the right thing! When he realized she didn´t connect the dots what else should he have done? If she would have found out he knew later it could have severly damaged hers and Adolins relationship. If she found out, while talking to Kaladin no one knows how she would react and Adolin likes both of them, he wouldn´t want them to have a, potentially extrem, falling out. I honestly see no better option than to tell her immediatly.

He did the right thing.

No one criticizes, that he told Shallan, but his nonchalant demeanor about it. It was really insensitive.

Edited October 26, 2017 by SLNC

[kari-no-sugata]

1 hour ago, Samaldin said:

It seems like the vast majority agrees Adolin was to blunt/straightforward when he told Shallan it was Kaladin who killed her brother, but honestly i think he did the right thing! When he realized she didn´t connect the dots what else should he have done? If she would have found out he knew later it could have severly damaged hers and Adolins relationship. If she found out, while talking to Kaladin no one knows how she would react and Adolin likes both of them, he wouldn´t want them to have a, potentially extrem, falling out. I honestly see no better option than to tell her immediatly.

In a sense, Adolin had no "winning move" here as whatever he did it would not come out well for him. Not telling her would be bad and would only delay the inevitable. It was definitely going to come out sooner or later. There's no "good" time for this to come out but there are definitely worse possible times.

I think where people are more criticising Adolin is not the fact that he told the truth but what happened immediately afterwards - that he didn't seem to show any concern for Shallan's dead brother. Unfortunately, Adolin was very focused on Amaram and it seems he wasn't able to switch gears and notice or guess Shallan's pain, and instead he's more concerned about "poor bridgeboy" Kaladin. It's probably worth remembering that Adolin had been sent out from the meeting room for not being able to control himself - he's clearly out of sorts. Adolin also has some shared history/pain with Kaladin about Amaram (that he referenced here as well).

I wonder what Shallan has told Adolin about her family. Hopefully Adolin will realise later that he should have responded differently.

[ScavellTane]

Could Iyatil be a Kandra?

[Darkness]

4 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

Could Iyatil be a Kandra?

As Brandon would say, "Anyone could be a Kandra". 

[ScavellTane]

I mean could she be the spren/kandra Shallan was chasing?

[soyperson]

7 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

I mean could she be the spren/kandra Shallan was chasing?

What makes you ask that? It's sort of left-field, where's this coming from?

[kari-no-sugata]

Whatever it is that Shallan is chasing is an ancient spren of Odium according to Pattern. He certainly identifies it as one but isn't sure what it is. I'm not saying we should trust Pattern entirely but I think it's very dangerous for readers to jump to conclusions about possible "Easter eggs" and Cosmere references when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. Whatever the "copy cat" is, it is capable of replicating any act of violence (and probably more) committed anywhere in Urithiru. That's very spren-like. I also wouldn't be surprised if the mere act of Shallan sketching it is what caused those other creepy-pasta drawings to appear in her sketchbook.

[Michael Portz]

2 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Whatever it is that Shallan is chasing is an ancient spren of Odium according to Pattern. He certainly identifies it as one but isn't sure what it is. I'm not saying we should trust Pattern entirely but I think it's very dangerous for readers to jump to conclusions about possible "Easter eggs" and Cosmere references when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. Whatever the "copy cat" is, it is capable of replicating any act of violence (and probably more) committed anywhere in Urithiru. That's very spren-like. I also wouldn't be surprised if the mere act of Shallan sketching it is what caused those other creepy-pasta drawings to appear in her sketchbook.

Well..actually Pattern says

Quote

“I cannot say,” Pattern replied. “It is not a thing of us. It is of him.”

Are we certain that "him" refers to Odium? And Syl uses a similar reference in chapter 17:

Quote

“From him,” she whispered, wrapping her arms around herself and growing small—actively shrinking to about two-thirds her normal size. “Voidspren.”

I know that thats what is usually implied by everybody in and out of the books, but do we have a WoB or a quote where this is clearly stated?

Edited October 26, 2017 by Michael Portz
Added 2nd quote, added 2nd chapters number

[kari-no-sugata]

1 hour ago, Michael Portz said:

Well..actually Pattern says

Are we certain that "him" refers to Odium? And Syl uses a similar reference in chapter 17:

I know that thats what is usually implied by everybody in and out of the books, but do we have a WoB or a quote where this is clearly stated?

This is also how Pattern specifically refers to Odium in WoR. In addition, when Shallan says afterwards "An ancient spren of Odium. Delightful" and Pattern doesn't correct her.

Edited October 26, 2017 by kari-no-sugata

[Alderant]

10 hours ago, maxal said:

Yeah, well I am just annoyed the older Shallan never once reflected on the fact her favorite brother abandoned them and left them to fend for themselves. Where was he when they needed him? Oh yeah, fighting for someone else.

I agree that it's a little(?) odd. It seems to me through the flashbacks though that Shallan was really consumed during her childhood, mentally, and frequently prone to memory lapses whenever her thoughts strayed a certain way. And seeing her tendency toward wholeheartedly avoiding things that cause her pain, I wouldn't be surprised to discover that she subconsciously shoved those thoughts of Helaran away before they ever broke the surface.

6 hours ago, SLNC said:

Anyway, that isn't the only sign of subconscious feelings:

1. "Brightlord Brooding-Eyes" - slightly mocking nicknaming in a positive context. Standard sign of affection.

2. Who tells us whenever Kaladin sent a new glyph? No, not Dalinar, which would be the more apt choice, but Shallan. She keeps track of him. Even though she already has enough on her plate.

Have an upvote, my friend. I didn't realize this until you pointed it out.

17 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

Shallen is intelligent and religious her distaste for spice messes with that part

Except that she DID eat spicy food, just recently, at Adolin's behest, and it was quite the, um, vivid experience. As I said, if this is post-Oathbringer Shallan (a la Sazed in HoA), then it wouldn't be incomprehensible for Shallan to turn against the Vorin church. We haven't seen what all goes on yet. I just don't think there's room to discount anyone yet.

[PunSpren]

6 hours ago, Leyrann said:

Both, actually. GRRM probably stole it from rock climbers, and Brandon probably did as well.

@mariapapadia As a Rock climber I wish sleeping on the wall was as uncomplicated as putting up a hammock ! lol

[Michael Portz]

5 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

This is also how Pattern specifically refers to Odium in WoR. In addition, when Shallan says afterwards "An ancient spren of Odium. Delightful" and Pattern doesn't correct her.

I guess you are refering to 

Quote

“Spren are . . . power . . . shattered power. Power given thought by the perceptions of men. Honor, Cultivation, and . . . and another. Fragments broken off.” “Another?” Shallan prodded. Pattern’s buzz became a whine, going so high pitched she almost couldn’t hear it. “Odium.” He spoke the word as if needing to force it out.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (The Stormlight Archive, Book 2) (S.309). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle-Version. 

Thanks for the hint, that was what I was looking after. What Shallan in her own PoV chapter says or thinks on the other hand is not.

Quote

I think a certain amount of scepticism is healthy, but it has to be grounded in common sense. Chasing after rainbows is not healthy.

I am not quite sure how I earned such a berating, and I AM a bit pissed.

[Aminar]

5 hours ago, SLNC said:

He did the right thing.

No one criticizes, that he told Shallan, but his nonchalant demeanor about it. It was really insensitive.

Wait... You read that as nonchalant? I read it as feeling super awkward. 

Read it again. The, "Wait, you don't know do you?" moment from Adolin is him being uncomfortable. Raising his hand to his head. Also uncomfortable. He has no idea how to handle the situation. 

[king of nowhere]

10 hours ago, maxal said:

Yeah, well I am just annoyed the older Shallan never once reflected on the fact her favorite brother abandoned them and left them to fend for themselves. Where was he when they needed him? Oh yeah, fighting for someone else.

 

I personally think it is premature to state (or hint) Shallan's reaction happened because she feels something towards Kaladin. Kaladin is someone she trusted, he is the only individual she ever told the truth and he betrayed her. Whatever she feels towards him is not really important as betrayal is betrayal. Whether it comes from a friend or a romantic interest, in the end what hurts is when you trusted the person. Shallan trusted Kaladin, he broke this trust. If she feels something more tender towards him, then future scenes will highlight it in a more decisive manner. This week does not allow us to conclude much in this regards.

As for Helaran, he clearly had something to do he thought was very important. Shallan realizes that. She realized, after Jasnah opened up to her, that protecting the world from a desolation was more important than protecting her family. I think she can understand that. Just as she can understand that kaladin has no fault for kiling her brother. Because shallan is a clever person who understands and accepts logic. Even if often she needs to be rubbed against it kicking and screaming because she's quick to avoid things she find uncomfortable. But once she is forced to confront the truth, she can be expected to come to conclusions like a rational adult.

Regarding kaladin... how did kaladin broke shallan's trust? I don't get it. Unless you mean by killing helaran, but it cannot count, kaladin did what was the right thing for everything he knew. Shallan is many things, but I've never seen her as petty, and it would be very petty to hold a grudge against kaladin for killing an enemy soldier on the battlefield.

4 minutes ago, Aminar said:

Wait... You read that as nonchalant? I read it as feeling super awkward. 

Read it again. The, "Wait, you don't know do you?" moment from Adolin is him being uncomfortable. Raising his hand to his head. Also uncomfortable. He has no idea how to handle the situation. 

I also read that as being more awkward than insensitive. Adolin simply didn't knew how to act there, so he went for full honesty; and then he let the argument die. The fact that he did not try to talk to her more in the lift shows how awkward it was. Incidentally, it's pretty much how I would have reacted, and I also am mentally direct, bad with people and honest. the more I read about adolin, the more I feel i have stuff in common with him.

Also keep in mind that adolin still has no idea what goes on in shallan under her surface. she never opened up to him and she's very good at faking. there's no way adolin will discover, or even suspect, the hell she has within if she doesn't open up first. And without that knowledge, adolin can fully expect shallan to not react badly to the news.

Incidentally, I wonder how shallan commented on adolin's best friends trying to kill him during the duel. they must surely have spoken of it during one of their interactions off-screen, but we never got to see it

[Guest]

@Aminar & @king of nowhere

I meant nonchalant as in how he just tells her like it is nothing all. Maybe it resulted out of the awkwardness.

I never said I blame Adolin. I even acknowledged, that it might be hard for him to judge, since Shallan didn't really express anything at all, except a small "Oh."

Still, it was insensitive to not even inquire once, about how Shallan feels about that. Because details of the death of a sibling is a sensitive topic. Even Adolin should realize that.

Edited October 26, 2017 by SLNC

[Aminar]

14 minutes ago, SLNC said:

@Aminar & @king of nowhere

I meant nonchalant as in how he just tells her like it is nothing all. Maybe it resulted out of the awkwardness.

I never said I blame Adolin. I even acknowledged, that it might be hard for him to judge, since Shallan didn't really express anything at all, except a small "Oh."

Still, it was insensitive to not even inquire once, about how Shallan feels about that. Because details of the death of a sibling is a sensitive topic. Even Adolin should realize that.

No. It isn't. You don't drop a bomb and ask how someone feels then and there. You drop a bomb and silently comiserate. He's at best half right and half idiot. 

He knows she's upset. That she doesn't know what to think yet. And that she won't know for a while. 

[Alderant]

15 minutes ago, Aminar said:

No. It isn't. You don't drop a bomb and ask how someone feels then and there. You drop a bomb and silently comiserate. He's at best half right and half idiot. 

He knows she's upset. That she doesn't know what to think yet. And that she won't know for a while. 

Okay. My general thought here is that Adolin was an idiot in this moment and entirely obtuse with regards to how Shallan was feeling. HOWEVER, we do have to give Adolin the benefit of the doubt--he was just kicked out of the meeting with Amaram and he's a little wound up from that.

Personally, I've been through situations where people drop some pretty big bombs. And you do and should ask how they are feeling, then ask what you can do to help. Sometimes, most of the time, they tell you they need time to process. At which point you step back and let them do so. Where Adolin erred is that he didn't even acknowledge her change in behavior. He doesn't seem to realize how it affected her--he's too absorbed with Amaram and how that situation will play out with Kaladin, and while he may realize to a small degree that she is upset, the fact remains that he kind of glossed over the whole thing, which is what upsets most people. To quote my daughter's favorite show, "Not cool, man. Not cool."

[Aleksiel]

I don't know what else was Adolin supposed to say in the moment, I think leaving her alone to gather her thoughts was acceptable reaction and he wasn't in a good emotional state either. Shallan clearly didn't want to talk about it and all she said about Helaran was that he left when she was young and she didn't know him well, not even a name. Apparently Adolin doesn't even know she had a dearly beloved brother and he has no reason to think she'd hide the existence of such a figure from him, so Adolin needs some time to process the implications of such a revelation, too.

To reference some relevant things from earlier in the thread, I don't think Shallan's rejection of her emotions and crushing them down was about Kaladin. She has a history of not wanting to deal with anything that hurts her and I think what @maxal meant as Kaladin betraying Shallan's trust is not telling her he killed Helaran when they were sharing their stories in the chasms. Kaladin clearly wished she didn't realize he killed her beloved brother, so we know he didn't want to share it just like he wasn't ready to come out as surgebinder. Will Shallan blame him for that? May be. You could argue it isn't logical, but logic seldom influences emotions. Plus Shallan already established she hates logic 

[kari-no-sugata]

1 hour ago, Michael Portz said:

I guess you are refering to 

Thanks for the hint, that was what I was looking after. What Shallan in her own PoV chapter says or thinks on the other hand is not.

I was thinking of this quote from chapter 13 of WoR:

 

Quote

 

“But you are certain that Jasnah was right?” Shallan said. “The Voidbringers are going to return?”

“Yes. Spren . . . spren of him. They come.”

 

"Him" is italics in the original.

So, to return to the original question, I have no doubt that Pattern is referring to spren of Odium. If you want to doubt the overall analysis I think you would be better off doubting Pattern's memory or his inference from Shallan's sketch.

 

1 hour ago, Michael Portz said:

I am not quite sure how I earned such a berating, and I AM a bit pissed.

Sorry, on reflection I was seeing things that weren't there. I've removed the line in question.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

To reference some relevant things from earlier in the thread, I don't think Shallan's rejection of her emotions and crushing them down was about Kaladin. She has a history of not wanting to deal with anything that hurts her and I think what @maxal meant as Kaladin betraying Shallan's trust is not telling her he killed Helaran when they were sharing their stories in the chasms. Kaladin clearly wished she didn't realize he killed her beloved brother, so we know he didn't want to share it just like he wasn't ready to come out as surgebinder. Will Shallan blame him for that? May be. You could argue it isn't logical, but logic seldom influences emotions. Plus Shallan already established she hates logic 

Well, she had no problem thinking about Helaran's death when she thought it was Amaram, who did it, but once Kaladin got involved...

And I still don't see how she could classify that as as a betrayal of trust... It is nothing that she entrusted to him. She will probably be pissed, yes. But betrayal? Come on.

Edited October 26, 2017 by SLNC

[Aleksiel]

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

Well, she had no problem thinking about Helaran's death at Amaram's hand, but once Kaladin got involved...

And I still don't see how she could classify that as as a betrayal of trust... It is nothing that she entrusted to him.

I know you ship them  It may not be the best way of putting it, but she did trust him with a secret - that Amaram killed her favorite brother and Kaladin refused to correct her. She could take it badly or she could process it before Kaladin is back and not blame him. It's easy to imagine she would be angry he allowed her to mislead herself on such an important topic. 

[Guest]

Just now, Aleksiel said:

I know you ship them 

No arguments left? Very low blow.

[kari-no-sugata]

10 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

I don't know what else was Adolin supposed to say in the moment, I think leaving her alone to gather her thoughts was acceptable reaction and he wasn't in a good emotional state either. Shallan clearly didn't want to talk about it and all she said about Helaran was that he left when she was young and she didn't know him well, not even a name. Apparently Adolin doesn't even know she had a dearly beloved brother and he has no reason to think she'd hide the existence of such a figure from him, so Adolin needs some time to process the implications of such a revelation, too.

It's hard to tell from the exchange whether Shallan has told Adolin before that she has brothers. Clearly she hadn't told him specifically about Helaran but he's not surprised about her having brothers in general.

I agree that he'll need time to think about it. I've often been in situations where I've suddenly changed my thinking after having a few minutes to reflect upon things alone.

 

10 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

To reference some relevant things from earlier in the thread, I don't think Shallan's rejection of her emotions and crushing them down was about Kaladin. She has a history of not wanting to deal with anything that hurts her and I think what @maxal meant as Kaladin betraying Shallan's trust is not telling her he killed Helaran when they were sharing their stories in the chasms. Kaladin clearly wished she didn't realize he killed her beloved brother, so we know he didn't want to share it just like he wasn't ready to come out as surgebinder. Will Shallan blame him for that? May be. You could argue it isn't logical, but logic seldom influences emotions. Plus Shallan already established she hates logic 

I think Shallan could accept Kaladin saying nothing at the time. However, they had about 5 days at Urithiru to talk about things. There's various ways you could argue about the secret but it's certainly unarguable that Shallan is not unrelated or doesn't care and that Kaladin is well aware of that. By Kaladin not telling her it also means that she's blaming the wrong party. It's also the sort of thing that was bound to come out sooner  or later, so by not telling Shallan he's acting guilty and also allowing her to take an even worse interpretation of the event.

Just to be clear: I can understand Kaladin keeping quiet - doing such a thing is a very human failing.

My guess on how Shallan will react when Kaladin returns is that she'll keep quiet about it but get very sarcastic if he ever takes on a holier-than-thou attitude or complains about her keeping secrets. ie she'll give him enough rope to hang himself, as it were. (Of course, it's also possible that Adolin will tell Kaladin that Shallan knows before such a scene could happen...)

[Duke of Lizards]

13 hours ago, maxal said:

Kaladin is someone she trusted, he is the only individual she ever told the truth and he betrayed her. Whatever she feels towards him is not really important as betrayal is betrayal. Whether it comes from a friend or a romantic interest, in the end what hurts is when you trusted the person. Shallan trusted Kaladin, he broke this trust.

Hey now, I think betrayal is a very strong word to use in this situation.  Can you elaborate on what you mean by betrayal?  I get the broken trust part and I totally agree that there are some hurdles that Kaladin will have to jump in order to regain her trust, but I cannot think of a time that he betrayed her.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Duke of Lizards
grammar/spelling