[OB] Oathbringer chapters 25-27

[JoyBlu]

18 hours ago, Morsk said:

And discuss whether trying for Amaram is worth it, or if murder causes more problems than it solves.

Yes, let’s discuss. 

So a big huge problem I see of Amaram being dead is this:

 

Quote

She was always wandering off, poking into things, peeking into doors . . .

And finding the king?

Eshonai froze, the door cracked open, allowing her to see into a lush room with a thick red rug and bookshelves lining the walls. So much information just lying around, casually ignored. More surprisingly, King Gavilar himself stood pointing at something on a table, surrounded by five others: two officers, two women in long dresses, and one old man in robes.

OB Prologue

Quote

The Parshendi leaders said nothing more and gave no clues, even when they were strung up, hanged for their crimes.

WoR Prologue

 

So most everyone that knew/understood what was really going on the night Gavilar died has died. There are only a few witnesses that are still alive and —  people want to kill those witnesses now. Amaram was there. He was in the inner circle.  He can’t die until until we know what he knew. 

Same goes with Taravangian. I’m afraid they will both be dead before we realize that they have the clues/pieces/information our main characters need to make the decisions to save the world. 

Let’s not be so hasty to get rid of them.

 

 

Edited October 29, 2017 by JoyBlu

[DSC01]

I don't think Taravangian is planning to kill Dalinar at the moment. When they meet, Taravangian seems to imply that he expects Dalinar to play the warlord and move militarily on the kingdoms that refused his olive branch.

Alsoso, when Taravangian sent Szeth after Dalinar in the last book, he wanted to make peace with the Parshendi, not other human nations. While it wouldn't have occurred to any of us that Dalinar might sue for peace with the Voidbringers, we now see that the liberated parshmen are not rampaging monsters like we expected, and they might well offer terms for making peace to Dalinar. 

Idon't think the conditions are currently right for going for assassination (and now that they've lost Szeth, I don't know who the Diagramists could even send that would be able to kill Dalinar).

[king of nowhere]

Well, part 1 is coming to an end, and generally the end of a part is marked by some important even/cliffhanger. So far, I get the impression that both shallan and adolin are close to snapping, but neither is that close; I mean, they don't look like they are nearing a cliffhanger, either of them. Shallan has too many subplots that just started and they'll probably arrive at some sort of conclusion first, and that conclusion will be bad for her. Adolin has no plot of his own, he's mostly a support to shallan and occasionally a foil to dalinar.

i expect part one to end with some momentous revelation in kaladin's plot. Something dramatic happening with shallan or adolin is gues number two, but I think it more likely to happen in the end of part 2 or 3.

@Harry the Heir: shallan was eventually discovered all the times (tyn herself remarked that no lie lives forever), but it was never a setback for her; in fact, all her failures  had pushed her ahead:

get discovered by jasnah --> she becomes closer with her than she was before

get discovered  by tyn --> she survives unschated, gains her contacts, and gains the respect of vatah

get discovered by the ghostblood --> we still don't know what will come from it, but so far they seem likely to bring her family to her.

Now, it is possible that all this is setting her up for a greater failure, as she won't be able to juggle all of this forever. In that case it was only a case that the kickback was coming later (which incidentally is often the case with liars). But she has sufffered no setback comparable to dalinar being betrayed at the tower, or kaladin being enslaved or killing syl, or jasnah being "assassinated". That despite being the most inexperienced at what she does. She was virtually a prisoner in her home until less than one year ago, and now she's consistently outperforming extremely skilled people in their respective fields of skill. looks dangerously close to mary sue terrain.

[Siaun Sanche]

40 minutes ago, JoyBlu said:

So most everyone that knew/understood what was really going on the night Gavilar died has died. There are only a few witnesses that are still alive and —  people want to kill those witnesses now. Amaram was there. He was in the inner circle.  He can’t die until until we know what he knew. 

Oh, I don't think that Amaram will die in the immediate future. I was just speculating about the possibility that Adolin might try to kill him. That's a different thing. Adolin could easily fail.

32 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

shallan was eventually discovered all the times (tyn herself remarked that no lie lives forever), but it was never a setback for her; in fact, all her failures  had pushed her ahead:

get discovered by jasnah --> she becomes closer with her than she was before

get discovered  by tyn --> she survives unschated, gains her contacts, and gains the respect of vatah

get discovered by the ghostblood --> we still don't know what will come from it, but so far they seem likely to bring her family to her.

Now, it is possible that all this is setting her up for a greater failure, as she won't be able to juggle all of this forever. In that case it was only a case that the kickback was coming later (which incidentally is often the case with liars). But she has sufffered no setback comparable to dalinar being betrayed at the tower, or kaladin being enslaved or killing syl, or jasnah being "assassinated". That despite being the most inexperienced at what she does. She was virtually a prisoner in her home until less than one year ago, and now she's consistently outperforming extremely skilled people in their respective fields of skill. looks dangerously close to mary sue terrain.

Kaladin killed Syl for a little bit and then got his head on straight and wound up more powerful than the feared Assassin in White. While a lot of people died at the tower, Dalinar himself had more authority at the end of tWoK then he did when he started. (Also, I wouldn't count Kaladin's slavery or Jasnah's assassination as resulting from his own failure.) Shallan is objectively less powerful than either of them, so I don't know why you would single her out as overpowered in particular. She's not the Highking of Urithiru, she's not backflipping through the sky in kung fu battles against Szeth, she's living in a studio apartment and trying to deal with the attentions of a world-hopping psychopath.

And yeah, she was a prisoner in her own home, where she spent her time... lying all the time. So it turns out that she's good at lying. She's had access to Jasnah's notes and the writings of the Sons of Honor, so she knows things that conventional scholars don't. She has a supernaturally eidetic memory and is a practiced artist, so she draws good maps. None of that is hard to buy for me.

Edited October 29, 2017 by Harry the Heir
clarification

[king of nowhere]

4 minutes ago, Harry the Heir said:

Kaladin killed Syl for a little bit and then got his head on straight and wound up more powerful than the feared Assassin in White. While a lot of people died at the tower, Dalinar himself had more authority at the end of tWoK then he did when he started. (Also, I wouldn't count Kaladin's slavery or Jasnah's assassination as resulting from his own failure.) Shallan is objectively less powerful than either of them, so I don't know why you would single her out as overpowered in particular. She's not the Highking of Urithiru, she's not backflipping through the sky in kung fu battles against Szeth, she's living in a studio apartment and trying to deal with the attentions of a world-hopping psychopath.

And yeah, she was a prisoner in her own home, where she spent her time... lying all the time. So it turns out that she's good at lying. She's had access to Jasnah's notes and the writings of the Sons of Honor, so she knows things that conventional scholars don't. She has a supernaturally eidetic memory and is a practiced artist, so she draws good maps. None of that is hard to buy for me.

Ok, you persuaded me, I was overstating my case.

Still, I can't believe that shallan is no more accomplished than the others. I don't buy into that "gender" distinction (I wasn't the one to bring up male and female main characters), and shallan clearly feels like she accomplished more and failed less.

Maybe it is because she never spent much time suffering the consequences of her failures?

Kaladin killed syl, and he spent chapters being powerless and anguishing. Dalinar got outmanuevered at the tower, and he spent chapters looking like he was going to die; the next book remarked several times how his army wasn't as big as it used to be because of all the losses he took at the tower. Shallan got discovered by tyn, she killed tyn in the same chapter and nothing worse happened. probably if tyn had wounded shallan, left her for dead, stolen her books, and escaped, and shallan was forced to spend some chapters tracking her down and recovering her stuff, it would have felt more like a loss on shallan's part.

Notice that in WoK shallan spent a few chapters being miserable after being discovered by jasnah, so it feels like she failed at something, so she doesn't come across as too accomplished. All protagonists eventually recover from their defeats, maybe the difference in how we perceive them is simply in how long they spend being defeated before they come back on top.

[Siaun Sanche]

2 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

Notice that in WoK shallan spent a few chapters being miserable after being discovered by jasnah, so it feels like she failed at something, so she doesn't come across as too accomplished. All protagonists eventually recover from their defeats, maybe the difference in how we perceive them is simply in how long they spend being defeated before they come back on top.

There's something interesting there. Part of the issue, perhaps, is that Shallan is much less likely to dwell on her feelings of misery than (say) Kaladin is. She's more likely to put on a brave face, even for herself. But the other thing is that the "mistakes" that bother Shallan the most--killing her parents--were 100% justifiable and necessary under the circumstances. So her uncensored feelings about herself would be more like "I'm a monster, I killed my mother," not, "I should probably tell somebody that I'm spying on the Ghostbloods."

[hoser]

17 hours ago, hoser said:

He had a Shardblade to Amaram's neck, IIRC.  It's pretty simple.  Voluntarily surrender the Shardblade or die.  If someone walks away with it, then Amaram can't make it disappear remotely.  Imprison Amaram.  

 

8 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

it is possible that alethi law forbids this, though. giving the misticism surrounding those blades, and the general favoritism the alethi laws place on the privileged ones by shifting the burden of proof on the weaker party, I wouldn't be surprised if it was forbidden to force someone to relinquish his until after he was proven guilty in a trial

Um.  The Cosmere doesn't really exist.  Are not the Cosmere, Roshar, Alethkar and Alethi law all vehicles for Brandon to tell a cool story in a fascinating way?  Sure, we can imagine and rationalize a hypothetical alethi law that Brandon could establish that justifies some character action.  But that has no bearing that I see on discussing possibilities.  If there is discussion about the laws, Brandon will make the laws support the story he wants to tell, but that tells us about nothing besides Brandon's intent.  
 I don't get this argument at all.  The alethi laws aren't real.  Even if they support Brandon's plot choices, wouldn't it be circular logic?

7 hours ago, Yata said:

Actually Amaram could re-summon the Blade at any moment.

You can't know for sure he cuts the Bond with the Blade when he leave the Blade to someone else.

It's like the King's Blades, you can't really steal them as Elk could summon them again at any moment. The only way to broke a Shardblade's Bond is to kill the Bearer or made the Bearer release the Bond

From Words of Radiance:

Quote

White mist coalesced in Dalinar's fingers, and a Shardblade appeared, tip to Amaram's throat. Wider ...

A Blade formed in Amaram's hand a second later - a second too late. 

Dalinar clearly has the drop on Amaram, who subsequently confesses to murder in front of multiple witnesses.  Things will then play out however Brandon wants.  Letting Amaram, a confessed murderer who says that he would murder again, go free with a Shardblade makes no sense.  He is a walking emergency, a five-alarm fire. 

Could he be removed from the Shardblade?  If you are willing to threaten his life, which Dalinar has already done, then yes.  Here are a few ways that I have thought of, but Brandon could come up with others, I imagine:

1. Demand that Amaram summon the Blade and renounce the bond on pain of death if he doesn't comply.  This is the simplest, IMO.
2. Demand that he surrender the blade and bind his hands or any other way he could wield the Blade.  Kill him if he re-summons the Blade before it gets bound to somebody else. 

And then go get his Shardplate, which he admits is stolen. 

As I see it, if Brandon wanted Amaram dead from this scene, Amaram would be dead.  Likewise imprisoned, disarmed or whatever.  We want Brandon to tell the really cool story that he has imagined, right?  My point is that it is unfair to judge Dalinar for a nonsensical plot point that massively affects the subsequent story. 

For me, this scene was strong in showing that Dalinar took Kaladin seriously, but at multiple points the mechanisms seemed forced.  My fourth wall took a real beating. 

[Aleksiel]

30 minutes ago, Harry the Heir said:

Shallan is objectively less powerful than either of them, so I don't know why you would single her out as overpowered in particular.

Dalinar is the most experienced and resourceful character, thus there is a higher expectation about him. Kaladin is set to be this amazing worrier, so it feels natural he eventually managed to beat Szeth. Shallan on the other hand is the least experienced, yet she had several major wins in a roll against much more accomplished people. Dalinar is good on the battlefield, but does poorly outside of it, whereas Shallan comes out as having more skills and accomplished a lot on different occasions. Her accomplishments rival those of the other two, yet she looking at her story so far she didn't have the opportunity to gain the skill and experience for that. Her skills grant her successes in more situations than other characters. This for me creates the feeling she did too much too fast.

Also, I'd like to mention it was insulting to imply in your previous comment people only criticize her character because of her gender. Yes, that's not the exact wording, but the implication was clear. 

[Siaun Sanche]

Just now, Aleksiel said:

Also, I'd like to mention it was insulting to imply in your previous comment people only criticize her character because of her gender. Yes, that's not the exact wording, but the implication was clear. 

I don't mean to insult anybody, and I don't think that people criticize Shallan "only" because of her gender. But we all live in a world in which women's accomplishments are seen as less deserved then men's, and in a bunch of different fan communities I've seen a dynamic play out where the successes of a female character are seen as less believable than more successful male characters. I think unconscious assumptions about gender (which we all have, me included) play into that.

[Pattern]

3 hours ago, maxal said:

The way I read Adolin is his emotions usually burst out whenever his closed ones are involved, but not him. He fights everyone else's battles, he's on the front line of every single war, but when it comes to himself, to his own personal battles, he does not fight.

You are right, and that one hits uncomfortably close to home. I also always feel it easier to fight someone else's battles while fighting my own is so much more difficult. Perhaps you just found out and made clear to me what makes me sympatize with Adolin so much.

[king of nowhere]

26 minutes ago, hoser said:

 

Um.  The Cosmere doesn't really exist.  Are not the Cosmere, Roshar, Alethkar and Alethi law all vehicles for Brandon to tell a cool story in a fascinating way?  Sure, we can imagine and rationalize a hypothetical alethi law that Brandon could establish that justifies some character action.  But that has no bearing that I see on discussing possibilities.  If there is discussion about the laws, Brandon will make the laws support the story he wants to tell, but that tells us about nothing besides Brandon's intent.  

As I see it, if Brandon wanted Amaram dead from this scene, Amaram would be dead.  Likewise imprisoned, disarmed or whatever.  We want Brandon to tell the really cool story that he has imagined, right?  My point is that it is unfair to judge Dalinar for a nonsensical plot point that massively affects the subsequent story. 

 

But that's exactly my point: brandon can choose the alethi laws so that the scene makes sense. When I read the scene, I thought "he could just force amaram to relinquish the bond... but hey, if dalinar does not, then probably it is forbidden by alethi laws."

We already saw alethi laws protecting those in power with that kind of circular logic, so why not assume the same mechanism works here? you can force a shardbearer to relinquish his blade only after making a trial and finding him guily; you can put him at trial only if he participates to defend himself; if he does not comply, you have to imprison him, but you cannot take the blade from him, so you have to imprison him with a tool that can break free of any prison... seems exactly like the kind of garbage that let sadeas get away with treason.

Not to mention that amaram was not subject to dalinar's autority, being a vassal of sadeas. Probably dalinar must even ask permission to sadeas to arrest him... or he could have used force against amaram, breaking the law and possibly risking opeen war with sadeas.

My point is, don't say that a plot does not make sense if it can be justified by in-world constraints.

16 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

 Kaladin is set to be this amazing worrier,

that's clearly a misclick, and yet it's still correct

[Aleksiel]

13 minutes ago, Harry the Heir said:

I don't mean to insult anybody, and I don't think that people criticize Shallan "only" because of her gender. But we all live in a world in which women's accomplishments are seen as less deserved then men's, and in a bunch of different fan communities I've seen a dynamic play out where the successes of a female character are seen as less believable than more successful male characters. I think unconscious assumptions about gender (which we all have, me included) play into that.

At worst it looks like you want to shot down the conversation and this line of thinking doesn't address the points raised, instead it presents them as not worth discussing, because those with negative opinion are assumed to be biased, thus their views are automatically invalid without further consideration. It's a heavy accusation, yet you add it so casually...

2 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

that's clearly a misclick, and yet it's still correct

Yeah, the mistake is correct  I'm not even going to edit it, it's too fitting 

[Yata]

43 minutes ago, hoser said:

Could he be removed from the Shardblade?  If you are willing to threaten his life, which Dalinar has already done, then yes.  Here are a few ways that I have thought of, but Brandon could come up with others, I imagine:

1. Demand that Amaram summon the Blade and renounce the bond on pain of death if he doesn't comply.  This is the simplest, IMO.
2. Demand that he surrender the blade and bind his hands or any other way he could wield the Blade.  Kill him if he re-summons the Blade before it gets bound to somebody else. . 

You could but:

1. You can't be sure he really did it until someone else try to bond with the Blade and after days the Blade is still not-bonded

2. Possible but it's still the case "you can't imprison a Shardbearer". He could re-summon the Blade in a couple of seconds and you honestly can't watch him 24/7 (or the Roshar's version 20/5)

Of course, it's not impossible to keep prisoner a Shardbearer, but the resource to keep a single prisoner will be ridicolous...much more because lawly speaking a Shardbearer is by default an high class citizen and he has rights to protect him

[maxal]

3 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

What if Shallan misunderstands the nature of the creatures, sets Adolin to fight it and they both fail spectacularly  With Mraize laughing at them on the background 

I was thinking either one of the followings: Shallan misunderstands the creatures, gets into trouble, Adolin has to jump in to save her, but it backfires against him; Shallan inability to speak the truth creates problems down the road with the Ghostbloods and the Kholin; Shallan inability to perceive Adolin as anything else but "perfection" make her completely miss the cues something bad is going on with him, when the chull hits the fan, she is powerless to stop his fall.

1 hour ago, Harry the Heir said:

I don't mean to insult anybody, and I don't think that people criticize Shallan "only" because of her gender. But we all live in a world in which women's accomplishments are seen as less deserved then men's, and in a bunch of different fan communities I've seen a dynamic play out where the successes of a female character are seen as less believable than more successful male characters. I think unconscious assumptions about gender (which we all have, me included) play into that.

I agree with this assessment as I have noticed the same. A female character is more likely to be called on being "too successful" and "implausibly so" than a male character. For instance, I have just finished the Lightbringer series (what's been published so far) and the main protagonist, Kip, is insufferably successful at everything he touches with minimal endeavor. Have a female character encounter the same level of success and readers would call her out for being a dreaded "Mary-Sue". In WoT, all the female characters get bad treatment from various members of the fandom (not everyone of course, but a significant number) for being too authoritative, too demanding, to refuse to take no for an answer, to be too successful too easily and so on. On the reverse, a character such as Mat who whores and drinks his way all through the series being successful only because of his "luck", most of the times, comes across as a sympathetic rogue. However, when it comes down to it, Shallan isn't so much different than Mat: she does have the same "happy go lucky" attitude and she does seem to succeed based on luck most of the time, but what is praised for a male character is shunned upon on a female one.

Personally, I love Shallan. I don't buy one minute she has been as successful as she thinks she was: she dig herself quite deep with the Ghostbloods and this will come to bite her back and she may not come in terms with the truth fast enough to prevent future events from happening. She's however very pro-active, she takes things into her hands, even if she wished she didn't have to. Will she stop the creature or will she be burnt by it? Only time will tell, but I definitely think we are heading for a Shallan/Adolin climax for part 1. It feels as if Brandon has been placing his pawns all through those first 27 chapters and now it will start to unravel. Adolin will not remain goal-less forever: something will happen and somehow Shallan is involved.

I don't believe in, yet another, Kaladin centrist climax. It makes no sense within this part to give him the ending climax. The story arc he has embark in doesn't appear as if it will reach a conclusion within the last 8 chapters and seeing his own, yet another, climax when the narrative as been more focused on Urithiru, Shallan and yeah Adolin too even if he's more on the background, we can't deny, apart from Shallan, he's got the most inner development so far (we are finally starting to touch some of his own issues even if it is very carefully and a viewpoint would really help). Thus to me ending part 1 with a Kaladin climax would be the wrong choice, but I fear little. I'm pretty sure the massive cliffhanger of part 1 won't be about Kaladin, but about the stuff going on in Urithiru.

53 minutes ago, Pattern said:

You are right, and that one hits uncomfortably close to home. I also always feel it easier to fight someone else's battles while fighting my own is so much more difficult. Perhaps you just found out and made clear to me what makes me sympatize with Adolin so much.

This warms my heart  Fighting for ourselves is difficult because it implies putting ourselves out there, for everyone to judge and comment upon. It is much easier to just spark, to scream to the injustice, to fight the bullies attacking others (as opposed to the ones attacking us) then to come clean and speak of what ails us. To be vulnerable. When you spent a lifetime wrapping yourself into strength, especially when evolving next to a disabled sibling, even worst when your parents are Dalinar, it can become extremely difficult to show things are getting to you. To admit failure. 

I see a lot of that in Adolin and these are aspects of his character I do relate to. He really makes me think of myself, when I was the same age. I always felt his character had a story to tell, a path to take and because it is so less obvious than with the other characters, it made it more interesting to me, as a reader.

Adolin is a great character to have within a work of fantasy, because his trajectory is much different than what fantasy has used us to. 

Edited October 29, 2017 by maxal

[king of nowhere]

7 minutes ago, maxal said:

I agree with this assessment as I have noticed the same. A female character is more likely to be called on being "too successful" and "implausibly so" than a male character. For instance, I have just finished the Lightbringer series (what's been published so far) and the main protagonist, Kip, is insufferably successful at everything he touches with minimal endeavor. Have a female character encounter the same level of success and readers would call her out for being a dreaded "Mary-Sue". In WoT, all the female characters get bad treatment from various members of the fandom (not everyone of course, but a significant number) for being too authoritative, too demanding, to refuse to take no for an answer, to be too successful too easily and so on. On the reverse, a character such as Mat who whores and drinks his way all through the series being successful only because of his "luck", most of the times, comes across as a sympathetic rogue. However, when it comes down to it, Shallan isn't so much different than Mat: she does have the same "happy go lucky" attitude and she does seem to succeed based on luck most of the time, but what is praised for a male character is shunned upon on a female one.

If we start going down the road of "you think so because you have prejudice", or its close associate "you can't understand because you've not been through it", then we may as well stop the conversation. We think shallan is too successful because we are prejudiced. The only way we can stop being prejudiced is by agreeing with the offended party, and trusting them in everything. Most of all, we must not try to argue with them, we can't avoid being wrong because we haven't been through their lives and so we can't understand. As an example of how prejudiced we are, take an example (possibly unrelated or irrelevant) of how a bunch of other people unrelated to us are prejudiced (by the way, those women in WOT are jerks and get crem for it. Perrin isn't a jerk. Neither is Mat. Rand is, and he also get crem for it. Mat had his luck because he was fated to it, so that passed; last time I checked, Shallan is not ta'veren)

Incidentally, it's all right to call men as a whole prejudiced, or to remark how men have on average a greater propension towards violence and how they tend to have worse behavior in high school. Try to make a similar bad remark about women, or about just any other minority, and it doesn't matter how many statistics you can show to back you up, you'll be dubbed in the best case as ignorant and prejudiced for not understanding because you aren't one of those other people. In the worst case, you'll be labelled a racist/sexist/whatever and ostacized.

I'm not angry at you, maxal, but at the whole system of politically correct beliefs that got established in the last decade or two. A system that is threatening freedom of opinion, as it systematically encourages disrespect for those expressing different views. Sure, everybody has unconscious bias, but you can't use that as an excuse to dismiss their arguments. Especially, you can't pretend unconscious bias is only something affecting other people. In fact, I've seen women openly expressing a preference for strong female leadership and be open and vocal about it, because, guess what? bias in favor of men is not politically correct, but bias in favor of women is.

Now, we were having a nice discussion about the nature of shallan's success and failures and its difference with the success and failures of other characters, and how that impacts our perception of her personal plot, and how different character personalities can read differently and make it seem like a character is being more or less successful because of that, and it was an insightful discussion where everybody involved was discovering new depths he had missed to the whole issue. Can we please keep the whole "prejudice" part out of it?

I am probably souding harsher than I intend, but prejudice being called upon unnecessarily is a pet peeve of mine. A big one. That's because a good arguments should be based on facts, proof and logic. And then someone say "oh but you're saying that because you're prejudiced". How can you defend from that? It doesn't matter whether you are or not, as long as you are expressing a negative opinion on a woman/minority, you must be. Even if you can quote a plethora of positive opinions you expressed about other members of the same minority (like, how I always had good words for jasnah - well, except earlier in this thread where I said she should have shared more of her work), they can all be dismissed for one reason or another. In the best case, it shifts the discussion from whatever it was about to your supposed bigotry. Unless one is clearly showing prejudice in the face of evidence, calling a witch hunt is never good for a discussion.

Now, bringing the wheel of time into it is not very useful, because of the whole ta'veren business; yes, those youth should never be as good at the stuff they do, but ta'veren! and haveing memories from previous souls too. You can't really say what is possible and what is not when put that way.

In the stormlight archive, you have spren bond. You can justify improbable skills with it. shallan got memory, which makes her an awesome artist and scholar. Her being the one to find the pattern in the shattered plains make perfect sense. fooling tyn and the ghostbloods? persuading the deserters to fight for her with nothing but a speech? well, all of them taken individually were possible enough, but taken together it seems like she's stretching her luck (it worked with the deserters because they were actually decent people who got sick of sadeas, and tyn saw through her disguise, but she assumed she was a con artist rather than a shipwrecked protoradiant).

Kaladin got fighting and leading capabilities. There is one thing where he comes across as too skilled, however, which is surgery. Amaram was tended by the best surgeons in the army, but kaladin sees his broken leg and thinks he could have done better. Dalinar got the best surgeons in the army to tend kaladin after he comes back from the chasms, and kaladin yet remarks that he could have done better. Those remarks always left me perplexed. Kaladin studied hard until he was 14, but it makes sense that those other surgeons also studied hard until they were 14, then they studied some more in karbranth, then got decades of experience on the job. There's no way kaladin, who specialized in something else, is also better than them at healing. However, it has never been a big enough thing to remark upon.

Incidentally, I also got the same feeling of "this guy is too accomplished" with kelsier, before the rebellion leader got himself killed in a premature unplanned attack. raoden, sarene and hraten would have given me the same feeling taken individually, but all three scheming together worked just fine; every time I was feeling one of them was too accomplished, one of the other two would take him or her down a notch. So maybe, as I said a few hours ago, when in years future I will read the whole stormlight archive, I may remember how I thought shallan was too successful, until problem X slapped her.

Quote

I don't believe in, yet another, Kaladin centrist climax. It makes no sense within this part to give him the ending climax. The story arc he has embark in doesn't appear as if it will reach a conclusion within the last 8 chapters and seeing his own, yet another, climax when the narrative as been more focused on Urithiru, Shallan and yeah Adolin too even if he's more on the background, we can't deny, apart from Shallan, he's got the most inner development so far (we are finally starting to touch some of his own issues even if it is very carefully and a viewpoint would really help). Thus to me ending part 1 with a Kaladin climax would be the wrong choice, but I fear little. I'm pretty sure the massive cliffhanger of part 1 won't be about Kaladin, but about the stuff going on in Urithiru.

Ok, this makes a lot of sense. On the other hand, kaladin is trying to find out where the parshmen are congregating, and that could happen at any time. I expect a cliffhanger like him discovering a voidbringer army, and trying to persuade his group to not get recruited, or something like that; it may happen at any time now. On the other hand, I can't envision Shallan and adolin plots being resolved in a couple of chapters. This new supposed unmade has just been introduced, I expect setting and springing a trap is going to take a bit of time at least, and possibly not work at first try.

[hoser]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

But that's exactly my point: brandon can choose the alethi laws so that the scene makes sense. When I read the scene, I thought "he could just force amaram to relinquish the bond... but hey, if dalinar does not, then probably it is forbidden by alethi laws."

We already saw alethi laws protecting those in power with that kind of circular logic, so why not assume the same mechanism works here? you can force a shardbearer to relinquish his blade only after making a trial and finding him guily; you can put him at trial only if he participates to defend himself; if he does not comply, you have to imprison him, but you cannot take the blade from him, so you have to imprison him with a tool that can break free of any prison... seems exactly like the kind of garbage that let sadeas get away with treason.

Not to mention that amaram was not subject to dalinar's autority, being a vassal of sadeas. Probably dalinar must even ask permission to sadeas to arrest him... or he could have used force against amaram, breaking the law and possibly risking opeen war with sadeas.

My point is, don't say that a plot does not make sense if it can be justified by in-world constraints.

...

As far as I can tell, we violently agree that the Alethi laws are arbitrary .

However, I disagree with the bolded (bolded by me) conclusion.  Since almost any plot can be justified by in-world constraints, then you are arbitrarily forbidding me from judging the plot developments.  Where's the fun in that?

My argument for the plot being nonsensical is that Amaram is a confessed and unrepentant murderer.  No orderly society would deny the public interest in disarming such.  Killing them if they refuse to disarm is normal.  If you want to argue that Alethkar is not orderly, but rather feudal, then the higher ranking noble would have emergency executive powers that would allow them to take action to remove a threat.  Since Amaram has the option to disarm, not taking the option justifies killing him. 

1 hour ago, Yata said:

You could but:

1. You can't be sure he really did it until someone else try to bond with the Blade and after days the Blade is still not-bonded

2. Possible but it's still the case "you can't imprison a Shardbearer". He could re-summon the Blade in a couple of seconds and you honestly can't watch him 24/7 (or the Roshar's version 20/5)

Of course, it's not impossible to keep prisoner a Shardbearer, but the resource to keep a single prisoner will be ridicolous...much more because lawly speaking a Shardbearer is by default an high class citizen and he has rights to protect him

1.  Not so.  I think we saw this with the Blade that Amaram ended up with, but I'm feeling too lazy to look it up when I can quote another instance.  Consider WOR chapter 15: 

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Salinor let the Blade slip from his fingers.  Adolin took it and knelt beside Salinor, holding the weapon with pommel toward the man.  "Break the bond."

Salinor hesitated, then touched the ruby at the weapon's pommel.  The gemstone flashed with light.  The bond had been broken"

Same book, same situation.  Solved. 

2. Dalinar doesn't have to hold a Blade at his neck forever.  Just long enough to restrain him effectively. 

As for the resources.  We have seen cells and guards.  Alethi society has the resources to imprison a murderer for the weeks it takes to rebond the blade.  But sure, maybe take option 1 then.  Or we can easily come up with an option 3.  The laws and rules that Brandon comes up with will support whatever option Brandon favors, as king of nowhere and I seem to agree above.  

 

[maxal]

13 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

...

This post belongs into the Pet Peeves topic and not here. We were having a conversation. I did not see the need to bring about personal agendas nor to start accusing other people from having theirs. The reflection was interesting and a valid one to have up until this post came along. Of course, everyone is entitled to his opinion, but my perception is this tirade goes outside the realm of acceptable. It is dangerously close to personal accusation made for no valid reason. I read this post as offensive, not the second half of it, but the first four paragraphs. You can't honestly accuse me of destroying freedom of opinion while stating I am not allowed to voice mine.

Sorry. No hard feelings or anything, but really, this leaves me completely speechless.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

For instance, I have just finished the Lightbringer series (what's been published so far) and the main protagonist, Kip, is insufferably successful at everything he touches with minimal endeavor. Have a female character encounter the same level of success and readers would call her out for being a dreaded "Mary-Sue".

Actually, there are many who are criticizing Weeks for Kip's Mary Sue-ness. Me included.

Edited October 29, 2017 by SLNC

[king of nowhere]

20 minutes ago, maxal said:

This post belongs into the Pet Peeves topic and not here. We were having a conversation. I did not see the need to bring about personal agendas nor to start accusing other people from having theirs. The reflection was interesting and a valid one to have up until this post came along. Of course, everyone is entitled to his opinion, but my perception is this tirade goes outside the realm of acceptable. It is dangerously close to personal accusation made for no valid reason. I read this post as offensive, not the second half of it, but the first four paragraphs. You can't honestly accuse me of destroying freedom of opinion while stating I am not allowed to voice mine.

Sorry. No hard feelings or anything, but really, this leaves me completely speechless.

I was reading your post as meaning "those of you who think shallan is too successful are thinking so because of prejudice", which sounded, as you put it, "dangerously close to personal accusation made for no valid reason". In which case a prolonged answer on why accusing people of prejudice is neither fair nor appropriate is proper. When somebody brings out arguments on prejudice in a discussion where nobody is showing any, I often read it as a personal accusation, and it makes me flare up.

If I misunderstood your post, I apologize. I don't know if I am the only one who read an implicit accusation in your post, or if it was poorly written. Regardless, a more proper response would have been to ask for clarification. Especially since I have traded words with you in the past on similar topics, and I've never seen you hand out accusations to fellow posters.

[Starla]

2 hours ago, maxal said:

Have a female character encounter the same level of success and readers would call her out for being a dreaded "Mary-Sue". In WoT, all the female characters get bad treatment from various members of the fandom (not everyone of course, but a significant number) for being too authoritative, too demanding, to refuse to take no for an answer, to be too successful too easily and so on.

It’s funny you mention this, because the first time I read WOR, I disliked Shallan because she reminded me of Egwene from WOT (the dreaded “Mary Sue”). She was a sheltered 17 year old girl from a rural estate who somehow managed to single-handedly charm the socks off everyone from slavers and deserters to highprinces and secret society worldhoppers. By the end of the book she had become the most important person in Alethkar, beloved by all.

However, as I have reread the books a couple times, I've come to understand Shallan more and how she can do the things she does. She is a lightweaver, and in WOR she is learning the surge of illumination. It is all about using illusions to do what needs to be done. Shallan’s natural drawing talent and perfect memory give her a head start with this surge. All she needs to do is decide who she needs to be to accomplish a specific task, draw an image of that person, mix in a little stormlight, and she instantly transforms into that role. It’s all smoke and mirrors and she is still the 17 year old country girl underneath. Seeing her this way, I realize she is no Mary Sue, she just has a vivid imagination and is good with illusions and playing pretend. I've come to love her as a character and can relate to her a bit.

Unfortunately, I never came around on Egwene but that's a different story. 

On the topic of Amaram, in my current read-through I just came upon this quote by Shallan in Chapter 52:

Quote

It seemed that Amaram was trying to bring back the Voidbringers.

I had forgotten that Shallan had discovered that Amaram was trying to bring back the Voidbringers. Why hasn't she told Dalinar? It seems to be an important bit of info for him to consider during the Highprince discussion. Perhaps she is trying not to reveal how she knows (spy mission for the Ghostbloods), but as I noted above, she's very good at pretending so she can make something up. This information seems to vital to withhold.

[maxal]

28 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Actually, there are many who are criticizing Weeks for Kip's Mary Sue-ness. Me included.

Yes this is true. There are also many who really liked the character. I personally thought he ruined the fourth book for me: I hated every single one of his chapters and since 2 chapters out of 3 were his.... I will not even mention the part which made me nearly spit my coffee out...  The same goes for Kvothe in Kingkiller. I just felt female characters more easily get onto the bad side of the global fantasy fandom. It is also something which is often commented upon, hence I wondered if the overall reaction to Shallan's character would have been different had she been a male. It isn't so true onto the 17th Shard, but on Reddit, there are regular posts being made on how "bad Shallan's character is" and I feel many commentaries on this media are unfair.

3 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

I was reading your post as meaning "those of you who think shallan is too successful are thinking so because of prejudice", which sounded, as you put it, "dangerously close to personal accusation made for no valid reason". In which case a prolonged answer on why accusing people of prejudice is neither fair nor appropriate is proper. When somebody brings out arguments on prejudice in a discussion where nobody is showing any, I often read it as a personal accusation, and it makes me flare up.

If I misunderstood your post, I apologize. I don't know if I am the only one who read an implicit accusation in your post, or if it was poorly written. Regardless, a more proper response would have been to ask for clarification. Especially since I have traded words with you in the past on similar topics, and I've never seen you hand out accusations to fellow posters.

The post I made was meant to take a few popular male characters who could be depicted in similar ways to Shallan, but seems to, on average, getting a more positive response within the fandom. If the wording I chose turned out being the wrong one, I apologize for it, I honestly never intended to accuse anyone of prejudice, I thought the point being raised was interesting and called for a deeper reflection. It would indeed have been preferable to ask for a clarification... I mean just a friendly probing, I never realized my post could be interpreted in the way you did, but since you did interpret it this way, then I better understand your reaction. I apologize for this.

But next time, just ask me  I've been here for almost 4 years: I have rarely seen other people attack people on purpose. In fact, I saw it only once within recent times.

[Toaster Retribution]

I for one disagree with the idea that Shallan is a Mary Sue. They tend to be without faults and insanely good at everything, as well as being granted extreme power without a very high cost. 

I can buy that people find some parts of Shallans story a bit unrealistic, or heavily reliant on luck (the deserters trusting her and Sebarial taking her in are my two main problems) but calling her a Mary Sue is going too far. She has far too many faults to be one, and she makes mistakes too (she is ruining herself mentally and got the coachman killed). Personally, I have more issues with Kaladin than with Shallan. 

As for the WoT characters, I think that a lot of people dislike the females there because of their attitudes toward men in general. They seem to view them as incompetent idiots, something Brandons characters never do. I don't think they get hate for being strong, or following their own agendas without doing what they are told, but for the fact that some of them (I'm looking at Nynaeve here) looks down upon most men (and some women) from very high horses. 

But in general, I can see @maxals point about Mary Sue being lobbed at female characters more often than men. 

[king of nowhere]

calling shallan a mary sue is definitely exaggerated. If nothing else, she got very lucky so far.

She got lucky that she actually manifested radiant powers after stealing jasnah's soulcaster. If she hadn't, she wouldn't have come back in jasnah's good graces.

She got lucky surviving the shipwreck, both when rescued by the shantind and when finding tvlakv.

She got lucky that the deserters only deserted a few weeks before and were still mostly decent people.

She got lucky that sebarial supported her bluff.

she handled the ghostbloods and tyn very well, on the other hand; that goes to her credit. She also handled the deserters well, it just wouldn't have been enough without luck. She also handled well taking power, but I don't think that is a good idea; I believe she would benefit from working more with people and less through them, especially now that she has several trustowrthy and capable allies.

That does not make her story bad. Heroes can get lucky sometimes (Mat from WoT is a different matter, because he was supernaturally lucky; in his case, consider his luck a magic system that he used to overcome problems). Kaladin himself went several weeks on bridge runs without any sphere on him before he decided to take charge, those times he could have died very easily (unless he was draining spheres from other nearby bridgemen?). Dalinar could  have easily been killed by Teleb instead of merely wounded, on that battle 35 years ago. It only becomes a problem if the hero does everything, or too much, by it. If shallan suffers some major drawback  in the future, and the story seems to be pointing in that direction, that it will be all right.

As for prejudice, it is nigh impossible to make comparisons there. Certainly prejudice exists, but how can we assess it regarding female and male main characters? there is nobody which is exactly like shallan, and for every character brought in comparison one can highlight some difference that makes the comparison moot. And every character ever written has people liking him and people disliking him, so it's also difficult to make comparisons there. Different kind of people also tend to congregate to different kind of forums.

I'd say pretty much the only way to prove there is a bias and quantify it would be to write a book in two identical versions, except with genders swapped between the two; the main characters would behave the same and do the same things, except the women of one version would be the men of the other and vice versa. And then you'd have to get a lot of people (several thousands at least, to get statistically significant data on a matter like this, properly randomized and with all the trappings of a good statistical sample) to read one of the two version, without suspecting that there is another, and then you'd have to collect all their opinions, and then if one character is more liked in one version than in another, you probably spotted a real prejudice, and you can say by how much % the prejudice influences the liking. But it's pretty much unfeasible to do all that stuff (starting with writing a whole novel) and get your readers without anyone knowing it is a test on prejudices - as knowing it would affect perception and invalidate the test.

But this forum seems fairly progressive on that account, and I doubt gender stereotypes influence significantly a large number of posters here.

[Siaun Sanche]

4 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

At worst it looks like you want to shot down the conversation and this line of thinking doesn't address the points raised, instead it presents them as not worth discussing, because those with negative opinion are assumed to be biased, thus their views are automatically invalid without further consideration. It's a heavy accusation, yet you add it so casually...

I have no interest in rendering your opinions invalid, simply in offering my own.

[Darkness]

On ‎10‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 0:27 AM, Starla said:

Alrighty then. I think both @Pattern and @Aleksiel have a point. Helaran was killed in battle, and I agree that’s its often best for the grieving process if the family of the deceased does not know or come face to face with the battlefield killer of their loved one. It’s much more difficult to overcome grief and move on when you have a specific person to blame, and that person is still living. However, this is not some random battlefield killer. It’s Kaladin, and Shallan has had some vulnerable moments of trust with him in a life or death situation. I doubt it is something she can easily forget when she looks at him. 

Think of how Kaladin would respond if he met the soldier who killed Tien on the battlefield. He’d want to kill that man, or at the very least he would feel a deep hatred for him, just as he does for Amaram, Sadeas, and Roshone, all of whom played a role in harming people he cares about. Logical, rational thought goes out the window when it comes to loss of loved ones. This is just speculation, but I imagine Kaladin feels awful knowing that he killed Shallan’s brother. He probably expects Shallan to hate him, just as he hates that random soldier that stuck a spear through Tien. I doubt he wants to think about it, much less face the look of hatred on her face when she knows the truth. 

That being said, I think there is a great opportunity for healing and growth here, for both of them. If Shallan can forgive Kaladin for killing Helaran, can she forgive herself for killing her mother and father? And if she can forgive him, can he forgive those who killed his brother and his men, and forgive himself for not saving them? Between the two of them, Kaladin and Shallan have killed half of her family. That’s some crazy reality to face, but I think facing it is a huge step they both need to take. They both killed in self defense, and in defense of those they love. At this point, I feel that the only way Shallan can progress as a radiant is to realize it’s not her fault, that she’s not a despicable murderer, and forgive herself. Forgiving Kaladin is a step in that direction. It might take time, but I think they are both strong enough to get through it and eventually make peace with the whole situation.

My internal monologue for Kaladin:
"A shock ran through him as he realized, Oh Stormfather! I killed her Tien..." *sobs and can never look Shallan in the eyes again*

Disclaimer: At no point does this internal monologue represent real persons or opinions. It is fully a work of imagination that is not based in reality.