[OB] Oathbringer chapters 25-27

[Alderant]

9 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

the romantic aspect is at least there in almost all their interactions and it is often significant (more so in OB so far, if anything).

I...don't know that I necessarily agree. What are you defining as "romantic aspect?" Because other than the whole "Shallan is physically attracted to Adolin" head-dialogue, I haven't seen much and a lot of their interactions look like the "friend-like but not specifically romantic" sort to me, and I certainly haven't seen anything significant since their kiss in WoR.

Don't get me wrong--I'm not saying Kal and Shallan are romantic. I think you're on the right track with your analysis here so far, in that Shallan's feelings for Kal--if any--are buried deep and she's focused on Adolin. Though I think Kal's feelings are stronger than he's admitting to Syl in the text in question. Her profession of wanting to kiss Adolin during the chasm scene in WoR was a bit of a set-down to him, if I recall, but Kal also likes Adolin so he's willing to step aside to let their romance bloom, which I think is the honorable thing to do in his situation.

13 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

So what exactly are Kaladin's feelings for Shallan? He doesn't say but it's "close" to "like". How would he describe his feelings? Respect, perhaps? But would that be an honest assessment? Perhaps not.

I don't know that I'd say Kaladin "loves" her yet, but he's certainly attracted to her on an emotional and physical level, more than you let on in your text. If I recall, Syl's comments leading up to the part you quoted had to do with Kal being in a relationship, and then she turns around and suggests Shallan. And Shallan has demonstrated some of that return in text, to my view, though I've heard the counter argument often enough that I'm not going to press that point....and @SLNC just ninja'd me.

30 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

If we can change the setting so that a romantic relationship would be off the table by having them be the same gender but it only has a slight impact on their interactions and their relationship then what exactly is specifically romantic about their actual relationship without that change?

I'm really confused by this segment. How would this impact Adolin and Shallan's relationship, as you're implying it does for Kaladin and Shallan's?

[kari-no-sugata]

4 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Come on. Just a few sentences before Syl was talking to Kal about relationships and sex. We both know what she was hinting at.

He's shutting down any idea, because of his respect towards Adolin and that Shallan is betrothed to him. That Shallan is lighteyed is just something he tells himself to make this easier. It's called repressing feelings and humans do that all the time.

We know what Syl was suggesting. That is clear. We also know that Syl was suggesting that he try getting on with that ardent too. Does that tell us anything about Kaladin's opinion of Shallan? No. We know that Syl's opinion of what Kaladin feels for Shallan but it doesn't make it correct. Kaladin's inner thoughts says that Syl is wrong but close. Even if Syl is correct, like is different to love.

We don't know what Kaladin actually feels. We can guess of course but it's still a guess.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

We know what Syl was suggesting. That is clear. We also know that Syl was suggesting that he try getting on with that ardent too. Does that tell us anything about Kaladin's opinion of Shallan? No. We know that Syl's opinion of what Kaladin feels for Shallan but it doesn't make it correct. Kaladin's inner thoughts says that Syl is wrong but close. Even if Syl is correct, like is different to love.

We don't know what Kaladin actually feels. We can guess of course but it's still a guess.

But you do know, that "liking" someone in the context of relationships and sex, normally suggests attraction/romantic interest, right?

Edited October 27, 2017 by SLNC

[Alderant]

6 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Even if Syl is correct, like is different to love.

This is mincing words. It’s more than inferrable at the least from the text spread between WoR and OB. And if you’re going there than you have to give short shrift to Adolin as well, since neither if them in that pair has said “love” to my knowledge. Intent to marry and even the act of courting are not definitive acts of love—especially in a series that has made repeated use of arranged marriages. 

[Nebty]

3 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I'm saying that almost none of their interactions fit inside the scope of them being "just friends" .

You are correct! They are not just friends. They're betrothed to be married. And even though being in love with the person you're betrothed to isn't exactly a given in upper-class Alethi society, they're definitely fond of each other, and physically/romantically attracted.

However, I don't see how you could call Shallan and Kaladin "just friends" either, given all the indications we've gotten that they're both attracted to each other as well. Plus a WoB that says that there'll be "Shalladin Moments" in Oathbringer, which pretty much removes any ambiguity as to what Brandon was intending.

It's a love triangle. There is mutual attraction between Shallan and Adolin, as well as between Shallan and Kaladin. We have no idea how that's going to be resolved, but it's the state things are at as of right now.

Could Shallan and Kaladin's relationship have stayed pretty much the same if these romantic feelings between them had never manifested? Sure! Because for 80% of WoR they hated each other's guts. It's only really around the end that their feelings change. But that just means that we haven't seen the implications of this development yet.

[The Invested Beard]

Everyone's talking about who Shallan's gonna get with and all I can think about is Nightblood and Zahel.

Edited October 27, 2017 by The Invested Beard

[Harbour]

Eh, "Syl's words struck uncomfortably close to the truth" phrase didn't make me feel that Kaladin "almost like Shallan".

Syl said he likes Shallan. "Close to the truth" make us interpret this statement as either "Kaladin less than likes Shallan" or "Kaladin more than likes Shallan".

And i didn't get the impression that Kaladin less that liked Shallan after the chasm scene. I got an impression that he actually liked her, and Syl basically confirmed that with her statement. And that excludes the first option.

For me this dialogue suggests that Kaladin not only definitely likes Shallan, but has towards her something more than that. That was the whole point of that conversation - to confirm and make readers sure Kaladin developed towards Shallan something more than just sympathy and friendly feelings.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Harbour

[Alderant]

1 hour ago, Nebty said:

However, I don't see how you could call Shallan and Kaladin "just friends" either, given all the indications we've gotten that they're both attracted to each other as well. Plus a WoB that says that there'll be "Shalladin Moments" in Oathbringer, which pretty much removes any ambiguity as to what Brandon was intending.

THANK YOU FOR THE FAIR TREATMENT!!!

I tend to be along the lines of your post, Nebty. Would you mind linking that WoB?

@Nebty, @HarbourThank you for putting my thoughts on browser. Have some cookies.

Spoiler

 

[Nebty]

18 minutes ago, Alderant said:

I tend to be along the lines of your post, Nebty. Would you mind linking that WoB?

Sure. It was at one of the events in Poland:

Quote

Q: Will Kaladin and Shallan get together? 
A: There will be Shalladin moments in Oathbringer.

 

[Alderant]

3 minutes ago, Nebty said:

Sure. It was at one of the events in Poland:

 

Oh, you just made me very happy. Thanks!

[mariapapadia]

8 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I'm saying that almost none of their interactions fit inside the scope of them being "just friends" . For example, take this from the latest OB chapter:

This particular interaction between Adolin and Shallan is one of the more "friend-like but not specifically romantic" interactions that they have. Shallan taking Adolin's arm makes it slightly romantic but if we imagine a revised scene where they were "just friends" then it wouldn't need to change much. This is very much the exception rather than the norm for Shallan and Adolin though - the romantic aspect is at least there in almost all their interactions and it is often significant (more so in OB so far, if anything).

What I'm trying to do is to draw attention to the difference between a "relationship" in general and what is specifically a "romantic relationship". The intent of the gender-bending thought experiment is a way to highlight the difference between the two. Shallan and Kaladin have interactions but what is specifically romantic about those interactions? If we can change the setting so that a romantic relationship would be off the table by having them be the same gender but it only has a slight impact on their interactions and their relationship then what exactly is specifically romantic about their actual relationship without that change?

To be clear, I'm focusing on what has occurred so far in the books. I'm not talking about what might happen in future (though obviously they are not unrelated but the details would depend on a lot of things we don't know).

 

We don't know anything for sure. Here's the passage in question:

So what exactly are Kaladin's feelings for Shallan? He doesn't say but it's "close" to "like". How would he describe his feelings? Respect, perhaps? But would that be an honest assessment? Perhaps not.

The above sequence is very much the exception though. Even then, Kaladin is shooting down the idea of romance between himself and Shallan. So it still fits inside the idea of them being "just friends". Obviously things could change in future but that hasn't happened yet. In terms of what we have actually seen, there's very little that falls outside the scope of their relationship being more than that of friends.

I don't know if you meant it like this or not, but from this post I get a more Shalladin vibe, rather than Shaodilin. For me, the fact that Shallan and Adolin don;t have friendship interactions, doesn't reflet well. I expect from a healthy, loving and good relationship, that the two people in it are before everything else friends. They don;t have to start like that, but in the end I want to see that developed. 

I actually think that Shallan's and Adolin's relationship was more strong when they were spending casual time together, when she was noticing his passion for Shardblades or he was teaching her, rather than when they only had romantic interactions. Maybe it's just me, but for me to buy it and belive that they can work together, I have to see more of that, not just jumping around at how cute Adolin is. 

I hope this doesn't seem like I am militating for the counterpart, but I felt like stating "we don't know what 's in Kaladin's mind" or "how good X and Y work in a romantic relationship" is being a little biased. As @Alderant pointed out above, we haven't had any clear thought from anyone so far, but I think it's safe to asume that one former slave who's now a Radiant has a different interest in our redhead girl. 

I hope this is coherent enough..if not.. Sorry, but it's Friday night  maybe I shouldn't post it. Also, I apologize to everyone who doesn't want any shipping wars/talks in this thread

Edited October 27, 2017 by mariapapadia

[maxal]

17 hours ago, hoser said:

Adolin has his own feelings, but he is not intimate with some of them.  It could trace back to his family situation, or be his own burden.  This makes it hard for his relationships to succeed and makes it hard for him to be with Shallan's feelings.  Until he can be with his own feelings, it will be hard for him to empathize with Shallan.  Yeah, he was preoccupied, but hopefully getting in touch with his feelings will fit with his "breaking" and allow him to relate more to others' emotions. 

My perspective is Adolin is constantly trying to be a man he just isn't. His portrayal of Amaram this week does highlight it. Both Adolin and Dalinar mentioned in numerous occasions how Adolin never really wanted to be a soldier and yet, this week, he tells us how he once looked up to Amaram: honorable, above the pettiness of the court, a true soldier. This clashes with some of Adolin's previous comments and yet, it correlates with others. As such I did get the feeling Adolin yearns not to care about the larger picture, to merely obey to orders and do his part, to be honorable against adversity, to reach this ideal he has set for him which is directly drawn of the idealized version of his father he has and yet... when the stakes rise, he fails this ideal. When has Adolin not cared about why he was fighting? When has he really ignored the larger picture? When has he ever really been above the politica games knowing they were harming his father? The answer is never and yet Adolin insist he ought to be this man.

I am not sure it is his feelings is not intimate with, but I do think there is gap in between the man Adolin aspires to be, the man he is and the man he could be shall he ever acknowledge he isn't the "stoic soldier standing high above everything". I however do not know if his character will get the opportunity to realize these things and to take the steps towards the man he could be, the man who would be him, not the him he thinks he wants to be. Seeing how he has been written so far, I would argue it doesn't seem likely Adolin will make any move towards personal growth. I don't see him ever admitting he killed Sadeas, I don't see him ever dropping his ideal, I don't see him ever take this other path, I see him sacrificing himself to his ideal, to his father, to the Desolation.

I don't see him reaching his full potential unless something drastic happens to him, unless he breaks down and so far, Adolin has shown us whatever is thrown at him: he will NOT break. 

16 hours ago, JoyBlu said:

Wow. Sounds like exactly what happened to Dalinar.  

@maxal, I enjoyed your beautiful, well-articulated thoughts on Kaladin, Shallan, & Adolin very much. I read your post out loud to the other people on my house who have read or listened to Stormlight and we all disagreed on the circumstances when Kaladin figured out that the shardbearer was. So we looked it up and reread it, here are some of our combined thoughts 

Ah thanks, this was very nice of you. I am touched and flattered you felt my post was so good you read it to other people 

16 hours ago, JoyBlu said:

And while he is in his thoughts Shallan falls alseep and he follows her lead (again)  

Now it is easy to argue that Kaladin could have brought up that he killed Helaran when they were later harvesting the gem-heart or when they were finding their way back to camp. But he didn’t and  we don’t know if he thought of it and was avoiding it, or if he was so physically and mentally distracted that he didn’t consider it again. It seems to me that the didn’t get another chance to really talk after this. 

The confided in / confidence in / trusting each other concept rings true to me — but I don’t see any sign of conscious dis-trust or willfully witholding information with the intention to deceive. (About Helaran) (there was some about radiancy) I really believe that it was all circumstantial. 

I’m looking forward to how it plays out. Mr Brandon Sanderson has certainly set it up to be a very good story no mater where the ending takes us. (And I’m enjoying every minute)  there is plenty of foreshadowing from this weeks chapters (what would Jasnah think?) that I believe Shallan will understand where Kaladin was coming from. I think the part where it will get crazy is the information we will get from the ghost bloods as to why Helaran was there that day in the first place  to kill Amaram. 

I do agree none of the character's behavior was made with the intend to hurt or deceive: it was the by-product of circumstances and of young people not knowing how to deal with the truth. It wasn't malicious, but I do think Kaladin, unintentionally, broke the confidence/trust he was given by Shallan even if he perhaps wasn't even aware he had it. He must not have realized how important or unique it was for Shallan to open-up.

Still, I do currently believe this truth is hard to swallow for Shallan. She was angry at Amaram for having killed Helaran, but Amaram is a bad person, hence her feelings aren't so mixed. Kaladin however? I am one of those who do not believe Shallan "loves" Kaladin nor that she currently has "repressed romantic feelings" for him, but I do believe she trusted him, I do believe she thought him a honorable individual and when she learned he's the one who not only killed her beloved Helaran, he didn't tell her as she was pouring her heart out. 

Despite all of this, I have stated before and I will state it again: if Kaladin and Shallan chose not to engage themselves into a romantic relationship it won't be because Kaladin killed Helaran. Similarly, if Shallan decides she does not want to pursue things with Adolin, it won't be because he murdered Sadeas. As for Adolin, if he ends up rejecting Shallan it won't because of her past, it will most likely be because he feels he needs to step aside to make room for Kaladin. However, if this happens, then I see Adolin withdrawing to himself, away from his family and "they", "they" being the Radiants and, more importantly, Shallan and Kaladin.

I don't believe in Adolin being friends with Shallan and Kaladin if they end up pursuing a romantic relationship. He won't antagonize them, but Adolin is always ready to take one for the family. He is perceptive. I wouldn't be surprised if he figured Shallan is hiding something about her family, but being Adolin, he's probably content to wait for her to be ready. However, learning she trusted Kaladin and not him.... well this could be where Adolin feels betrayed by Shallan. Come to think of it, that may be the triangle: Adolin feels betrayed by Shallan who feels betrayed by Kaladin who is touched by Adolin's loyalty  Now I'm sure this is something many readers would love to read 

Ah and I don't believe in a "happy romantic denouement" for Adolin outside of Shallan, if it isn't her, then I do think it will be the "political marriage". Like his father.

On the side note, about the WoB relating to "Shalladin moments", people are perhaps reading too much into it. The "moments" may not be romantic or not, but it absolutely does not give any indications towards the conclusion of the love triangle. Just because Shallan and Kaladin spend time together does not mean they will engage into a long-term relationship. It may be they will explore their feelings and find them platonic or it may be they will find them romantic, but they won't last: the WoB by itself doesn't tell us much.

[Pattern]

9 hours ago, maxal said:

I don't see him ever dropping his ideal, I don't see him ever take this other path, I see him sacrificing himself to his ideal, to his father, to the Desolation.

I don't see him reaching his full potential unless something drastic happens to him, unless he breaks down and so far, Adolin has shown us whatever is thrown at him: he will NOT break. 

What would sacrificing himself bring? A punishment for a justified killing. Probably no character growth at all, dead people don't grow anymore. (I know, we like different kinds of stories - I am looking forward to a character who is not broken. There are resilient people in real life, too, who survive traumatic experiences more or less unscathed. Not everybody has to be "damaged goods". So as long as Adolin does not break, I say "Yeah!".)
If Adolin confesses a murder at all, then after killing Highprince Sadeas - again. 

I also see it rather positively when a character aspires to be someone he is not, yet. Ideals are important to improve yourself. Adolin is not so dense to think that he is a calm soldier. The image of that can help him to become at least a bit calmer. It is not always useful to be a firebrand, like he used to be most of the time.

9 hours ago, maxal said:

do believe she thought him a honorable individual and when she learned he's the one who not only killed her beloved Helaran, he didn't tell her as she was pouring her heart out. 

I really can not see what good could have come of that. "Hey, now that we are honest to each other, by the way, it was me who killed your brother. Think on that, then you can feel really warm and comfortable in the upcoming flashflood"...Ok, that would be the worst possible way to bring up the topic, I just can't see a way where telling this secret in a Highstorm, where both of them are afraid anyway, would be good. It actually shows the sensitiveness in Kaladin that Adolin is lacking in our current scene. I wonder what Kaladin would have been called by some of us, if he had told Shallan about killing her brother while she was pouring her heart out. "Insensitive" probably would have been a very mild word, then.

 

So let me elaborate my thoughts on the H-bomb now.
I have read a lot about how Shallan could feel betrayed by Kaladin and how insensitive Adolin has been to her. Don't understand me wrong, I usually like Shallan. Here she is quite unreasonable though. In this conversation, Adolin definitely is a bit blunt and naive, also feeling awkward. But he intuitively assesses the situation correctly - given the facts Shallan and Kaladin have given him so far. Shallan gives no outward emotional reaction and falls into her protection mechanism not thinking about Helaran and Kaladin. Adolin assumes from what Shallan told him so far that Shallan and Helaran have not been very close, so there is no reason he could expect emotional distress from Shallan without her showing any. So Adolin being curious of the reasons for Helaran attacking Amaram in the first place is ok. He cannot read Shallan's mind and if she did go on with the topic, this thought process could have even helped her to overcome her grief or at least the potential anger against Kaladin for killing her brother.  

What Adolin might see, though, is the grand betrayal standing in the room, which we have not focussed on until now - we were too focussed on the fly while the elephant stood right in front of us. "Poor bridgeboy."

Should Kaladin return at this moment, he is the one who has been betrayed by Dalinar. Dalinar promised him justice. A postponement of Amaram's trial to a time after the Desolation is absolutely ridiculous and even worse than Sadeas' delay of the duel Adolin and Kaladin earned. There Elhokar has been chasticed for not focussing on the right priorites and enforcing the duel soon instead of throwing a tantrum. Now Dalinar practically broke his word (as long as he does not take away the shardblade and imprison Amaram right away as Highking of Urithiru, no matter the Alethi rank), and should also get a chasticement. With the decision to make Amaram Highprince, Dalinar endangers everything. Kaladin has been betrayed by Lighteyes often enough, even with his Third Oath, I see him overreacting and flying (falling) right away as soon as he gets information of Amaram having become Highprince with the approval of Dalinar. He will be in a doubting state of mind anyway because of his unexpected experiences with the Listeners. Having Dalinar break his word might just push Kaladin away for good.

I don't see Kaladin and Amaram staying in Urithiru together. Kaladin accepting him would be totally unbelievable. So I expect either Kaladin demanding a decision "him or me" from Dalinar or the Urithiru Garbage Service taking care of the problem (that is Adolin killing Highprince Sadeas - again).

So, Adolin saying "poor bridgeboy" hits the nail on the head. He might be blunt and insensitive towards Shallan, but he sees the bad spot Kaladin is in again. He tries to steer Shallan's thoughts and feelings to a place where she could be able not to hold a grudge against Kaladin. Kaladin getting trouble from Shallan, too, would be too much. I am really looking forward to Adolin's further actions in this regard. A confession of having killed Torol is not what I expect of him. Getting rid of Amaram though,...

 

Edited October 28, 2017 by Pattern
Typos for a discount, today!

[Guest]

Very interesting thoughts @Pattern Have an upvote.

And I absolutely agree about what you said about the chasm situation in the alcove. It was just not the right place, when Shallan was depending on Kaladin for comfort.

Edited October 28, 2017 by SLNC

[Aleksiel]

@Pattern there was time after the chasms and then again in Urithiru. Let's stop excusing Kaladin. There's never a good time to tell someone you killed their brother, but it's the kind of thing you should make time for. 

As for Dalinar and Amaram I completely agree, I hope this gets him in trouble with the SF. I was so pissed off it played like that. If Elhokar will just be nodding in the background and have no character development he might as well just die. 

[Guest]

49 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

there was time after the chasms and then again in Urithiru. Let's stop excusing Kaladin. There's never a good time to tell someone you killed their brother, but it's the kind of thing you should make time for. 

There was no time after the chasms, because Kaladin had an awful leg wound by the chasmfiend, was ordered to stay behind by Dalinar and the expedition immediately moved out. He catches himself looking at Shallan once, but decides to not pursue his welling attraction for her.

Sure, there was time in Urithiru. If we discount the fact, that Pattern forced Shallan to see the truth, that she killed her mother and not Lin, which left her very shaken. I wouldn't be surprised, if she avoided any human contact for a while. Then there is the fact, that they were in a completely new city. Kaladin had to get his men situated and, of course, was worried about his parents. Not to mention, he suddenly became a Windrunner and probably had that pressing on his mind, too.

But the most important thing is: He decided to not pursue Shallan. Approaching her at all, would make this infinitely harder for him. He tries to not think about her and maintains a professional distance. Once again, it is a completely human thing to distance oneself, when repressing feelings. Though I'd feel like that will change should Shallan begin to act strangely around him - maybe distance herself completely or adapting the Radiant persona -, Kaladin is one of the few people, who actually are able to detect those subtleties in her.

Hell, the way I see it: Kaladin doesn't even see Shallan as a friend at this point. Sure, not an enemy, but more of a colleague. He wants to have something deeper with her, but doesn't act on it, because of his respect towards Adolin. So, he creates a distance between him and Shallan as an act of self-preservation. He can't let some welling feelings dictate his life now. Not with his new responsibilities as a Windrunner and everything that happened when the Everstorm was summoned. Which is also why he immediately shuts down Syl, when she talks about Shallan.

Edited October 28, 2017 by SLNC

[Aleksiel]

@SLNC the expedition didn't leave immediately, Shallan had a meal, a bath and several conversations before it was decided she'd go with it, so that's several hours at least. 

10 minutes ago, SLNC said:

But the most important thing is: He decided to not pursue Shallan.

You make it sound so melodramatic, as if Kaladin was Dalinar deeply in loved with Navani for a long time and then deciding to make room for Gavilar. It isn't like that at all. Deep feelings don't emerge immediately, this isn't a Disney movie. It's not like he had loved dearly since childhood. It's just another example of Kaladin not being ready to talk about something important.  

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

You make it sound so melodramatic, as if Kaladin was Dalinar deeply in loved with Navani for a long time and then deciding to make room for Gavilar. It isn't like that at all. Deep feelings don't emerge immediately, this isn't a Disney movie. It's not like he had loved dearly since childhood. It's just another example of Kaladin not being ready to talk about something important.  

What? All I'm saying is that he made the decision to not act on his welling feelings. There is a reason I used the word "welling". But in a way, that is exactly what happened. Kaladin decided not to interfere in the thing that Shallan and Adolin have going.

Quote

She looked gorgeous. Kaladin was willing to admit it, if only to himself. Brilliant red hair, ready smile. She said something clever; Kaladin could almost hear the words. He waited, hoping that she’d look toward him, meet his eyes across the short distance.
She didn’t. She rode on, and Kaladin felt like an utter fool. A part of him wanted to hate Adolin for holding her attention, but he found that he couldn’t. The truth was, he liked Adolin. And those two were good for one another. They fit.

He thinks Shallan and Adolin fit, so he takes the backseat. He feels rejected, so he distances himself. Its not that hard to understand.

15 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

the expedition didn't leave immediately, Shallan had a meal, a bath and several conversations before it was decided she'd go with it, so that's several hours at least. 

Kaladin was exhausted, had a severe leg wound, had lost Syl and was told to rest. Why are you expecting so much from him? He didn't have Stormlight healing at this point anymore.

 

Edited October 28, 2017 by SLNC

[Pattern]

21 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

It's just another example of Kaladin not being ready to talk about something important.  

Is it really important? Helaran was killed in combat. Kaladin was the one who happened to kill a Shardbear(er) nearly unarmed who otherwise would have killed the one Kaladin chose to protect and himself. 

Shallan lost her brother long before that day, when he left the family for good. The fact that it was Kaladin who killed her brother in combat instead of Amaram is a mere detail which only matters because of their possibly budding feelings for each other. On a professional level (colleagues as KR) this should be no hindrance at all. Helaran went to war willingly. And guess what? People die in wars, you can't hold a grudge against former enemies not to let themselves be killed.

Oh, and I don't find excuses for Kaladin, because I think there is nothing to be excused in the first place, Does knowing the truth help Shallan in any way?
No. It turns out to be just another fact she shoves down into her subconcious and perhaps choses to suppress totally. She has practice doing these things. Her not knowing would have been best as long as she does not seek revenge against the wrong person (or as long as the wrong person is Amaram). Well this last possibilty went down the toilet this week.  

The only scenario I see where it is necessary for Shallan to know the truth is where she starts an intimate relationship with Kaladin.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Pattern

[Aleksiel]

@SLNC so Kaladin is so weak in your opinion that welling feelings prevent him from even talking to Shallan and he needs to isolate himself from her completely? 

Look, I know we disagree on the level of feelings involved when it's about those two. The right thing for Kaladin to do was tell her before he left Urithiru and he didn't do it. You can list any number of reasons why he didn't and in my opinion it doesn't change the fact he should have told her. There will never be this perfect moment when it can happen organically, it will always be an awkward and unpleasant revelation. It is the kind of thing that should be said sooner rather than later.

6 minutes ago, Pattern said:

Is it really important? Helaran was killed in combat. Kaladin was the one who happened to kill a Shardbear(er) nearly unarmed who otherwise would have killed the one Kaladin chose to protect and himself. 

Shallan lost her brother long before that day, when he left the family for good. The fact that it was Kaladin who killed her brother in combat instead of Amaram is a mere detail which only matters because of their possibly budding feelings for each other. On a professional level (colleagues as KR) this should be no hindrance at all. Helaran went to war willingly. And guess what? People die in wars, you can't hold a grudge against former enemies not to let themselves be killed.

I honestly can't believe anyone could ask that. Yes, of course it's important who killed her brother.  She shouldn't hold a grudge against Kaladin, but the idea it doesn't matter because people die in war... This is such an insensitive thing to say 

[Pattern]

7 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

This is such an insensitive thing to say 

Yes, war is insensitive. And I think it is best not to know the soldier who killed your relatives in a war personally. Sometimes not knowing the details and the anonymity of war is better for relatives than holding grudges besides the grief.

7 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

Yes, of course it's important who killed her brother.

Does any relative of a darkeyed spearman know who the enemy was who killed their relative? Probably not. Applying the same standards for everyone and putting aside that we have two protagonists in a novel, it does not matter who killed Helaran. He could have had a very unlucky day and been killed by a random arrow. Shallan's brother still would be dead, the grief would be the same and not knowing who fired the arrow would not matter at all.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Pattern

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Aleksiel said:

so Kaladin is so weak in your opinion that welling feelings prevent him from even talking to Shallan and he needs to isolate himself from her completely?

No. He's a human being. This has nothing to do with weakness. He doesn't isolate himself from her, but doesn't approach her as a friend either. It is a completely normal, human reaction to feeling rejected, but still having to somehow work with each other.

[Aleksiel]

@Pattern are you done editing that reply? I swear it's the third version I see.

[Starla]

Alrighty then. I think both @Pattern and @Aleksiel have a point. Helaran was killed in battle, and I agree that’s its often best for the grieving process if the family of the deceased does not know or come face to face with the battlefield killer of their loved one. It’s much more difficult to overcome grief and move on when you have a specific person to blame, and that person is still living. However, this is not some random battlefield killer. It’s Kaladin, and Shallan has had some vulnerable moments of trust with him in a life or death situation. I doubt it is something she can easily forget when she looks at him. 

Think of how Kaladin would respond if he met the soldier who killed Tien on the battlefield. He’d want to kill that man, or at the very least he would feel a deep hatred for him, just as he does for Amaram, Sadeas, and Roshone, all of whom played a role in harming people he cares about. Logical, rational thought goes out the window when it comes to loss of loved ones. This is just speculation, but I imagine Kaladin feels awful knowing that he killed Shallan’s brother. He probably expects Shallan to hate him, just as he hates that random soldier that stuck a spear through Tien. I doubt he wants to think about it, much less face the look of hatred on her face when she knows the truth. 

That being said, I think there is a great opportunity for healing and growth here, for both of them. If Shallan can forgive Kaladin for killing Helaran, can she forgive herself for killing her mother and father? And if she can forgive him, can he forgive those who killed his brother and his men, and forgive himself for not saving them? Between the two of them, Kaladin and Shallan have killed half of her family. That’s some crazy reality to face, but I think facing it is a huge step they both need to take. They both killed in self defense, and in defense of those they love. At this point, I feel that the only way Shallan can progress as a radiant is to realize it’s not her fault, that she’s not a despicable murderer, and forgive herself. Forgiving Kaladin is a step in that direction. It might take time, but I think they are both strong enough to get through it and eventually make peace with the whole situation.

[maxal]

3 hours ago, Pattern said:

What would sacrificing himself bring? A punishment for a justified killing. Probably no character growth at all, dead people don't grow anymore. (I know, we like different kinds of stories - I am looking forward to a character who is not broken. There are resilient people in real life, too, who survive traumatic experiences more or less unscathed. Not everybody has to be "damaged goods". So as long as Adolin does not break, I say "Yeah!".)
If Adolin confesses a murder at all, then after killing Highprince Sadeas - again. 

I also see it rather positively when a character aspires to be someone he is not, yet. Ideals are important to improve yourself. Adolin is not so dense to think that he is a calm soldier. The image of that can help him to become at least a bit calmer. It is not always useful to be a firebrand, like he used to be most of the time.

This is something you and I disagree with. I personally do not enjoy static characters and reading Adolin refusing to react to events, refusing to grow, refusing to evolve is precisely what I would quality as a "static arc". Also while not everyone breaks in the force of adversity, when the adversity is abnormally high, it makes the story implausible for one given individual to never give anything away. When it comes to story telling, there is the probable, the plausible and the possible. Hence, Adolin never reacting to anything may be possible, but it is not highly probable and it is highly implausible because very few people who not react being put into his shoes, except perhaps psychopaths. I also happen not to believe one moment in people surviving traumatic experiences unscathed: every has scars. They may be deeper for some people, some people may be better at dealing with them, but when you scratch a little, you will find them. This is the truth of life: we all have our path to walk on, we all have our hardships: to deny one character from reacting to them is plain implausible and it doesn't make for great story telling, IMO. There is nothing worst for a reader then to read a character who should react, but is not reacting because the author has dropped the ball on it. Mind I am not saying Brandon did this, but shall he go down the path you are suggesting, I will say it. 

Adolin has never given me the vibe he had this capacity to remain stoic in the fact of adversity. The fact he aspire to be this man is, IMHO, plain wrong. It would be like myself aspiring to be passion-less because I happen to have a great deal of respect for those who are, because it looks easier for them, because people react better to them, because they are better loved, because nobody thinks less of them, but I'd sooner fit a square peg into a circle. In shorts, some things just are: Adolin is an emotive and sensitive individual, no amount of work will ever transform him into his "ideal". Learning to better control his emotions will never turn him into the "stoic" soldier he aspire to be. Emotional people will always struggle with their emotions and saying Adolin could work it up, become this individual he yearns to be is entirely plausible and desirable as it would have one "unbroken character" within the story (we have Navani for this) is the same as saying Kaladin should get rid of his depression. Or stop being protective and become "stoic" too because it would make his life easier. It is not going to happen.

Adolin will always be a firebrand: firebrand always light themselves. I AM a firebrand myself and after 37 years of life I still haven't figured out how to control it appropriately. In which world is a 23 years kid going to figure it out just by looking up at someone who behaves like he wish he were? This is pointless: we can't be what we are not and Adolin will become more stable on the day he is finally going to admit: "What I am is good enough.", if he ever manage to reach this point. All in all, this isn't how it works. One doesn't get to "stop being himself" or to "change". Change is illusory: people never really change, not fundamentally, they improve their weaknesses, work on their strengths, but they do not change. Even Dalinar did not change drastically so. So why should Adolin make 180 and become someone else entirely because it avoids him from breaking down?

As long as Adolin will be put into situations which pushes his buttons, he will be a firebrand. The best he could achieve is not to act on it and go out to spend the emotion away, like running an absurd amount of km or sparring until his arms dropped, but he will always be reactive. The one way he could control it better is by planning, have a plan, then another plan and then yet another plan because knowing you have ways to deal with the situation helps temper it down: it is the powerlessness which often lights firebrands. These are things he'll however learn himself, with time and years and if his father was smart, this is something he'd help him with.

This very long text was to say the following: Adolin's ideal is wrong for him. It is a path he wants to walk but it also is a path he can't walk because he will never be this man he wants to be. Also, restraining Adolin to a story arc where he never reacts, never shows how things affect him and have him continue to just be "the soldier" and "the general" doesn't warrant viewpoints. We don't need the viewpoints of static characters. Static characters are meant for the background: we don't need their perspective. They don't get climaxes nor defining moments because it isn't their purpose. Navani is such a character and even then I am not sure she will remain static forever. Adolin however, like it or hate it, has gotten his own climaxes: he murdered Sadeas. Now the author's got to write something with it.. I don't know what but the suggestion he should continue as he has so far, by moving Adolin more and more into the background is not going to work out. For one, it is a seriously rip off for a massive cliffhanger: you don't write those not to follow up on them. For second, it is a breach of trust for his readers who expected him to do something about it. Thus, something needs to happen. It may not be up to my personal liking, but nothing is not an option here.

6 hours ago, Pattern said:

...

Now for a change of talk, let's hit the second part of the post. I really liked it. It was a good post. I will first echo's @Aleksiel's later thoughts in saying: "There is never a good moment to admit you have killed a friend's brother without intending to.". Well, by "not intending to", I don't mean to say Kaladin didn't intend to kill the Shardbearer, he did, but he never wanted to kill Shallan's brother's specifically. So this being said, my thoughts are I perfectly understand Kaladin's reaction, but given he and Shallan had shared truths, given the fact they seemed to have this mutual understanding where they have bridged the chasm in between them, him not finding a way to voice it out is not morally right. Agree, it is terrible: Adolin could have reasoned out the same way, he could have thought to himself "this is too harsh, I will not tell her". Instead, we've got one of those fabulous moment, so rare in story telling, where two characters actually tell each other what they know and figure out the real truth. It was brilliant, but tactless and no doubt Shallan felt hurt by Adolin being insensitive right after she tried to be "there" for him.

As for the Amaram discussion, something came to mind this morning. Dalinar agrees to postpone trialing Amaram until after Roshar is saved. In the scope of a Desolation, he is of the opinion they will need every single one of their capable generals: this very thought made him mourn Sadeas as he mourns the loss of his military capacities, thinking surely they could have used them. Amaram brings forward this very same reasoning and we see Dalinar agreeing to it.

Adolin obviously disagrees. Another instance which shows he can't be the "stoic soldier". He doesn't have Amaram's heartless cold logic nor does he have his father's inclination towards military deeds: Adolin will never agree to allow men like Amaram and Sadeas to thrive just because their skill might be useful. He will always agree they don't deserve it and he would also argue they are better off without them. This is the sharp cleavage in between "real soldiers" and Adolin. Adolin's loyalty to Kaladin just weights more than the need to have a strong army to face the battle: he'd rather have an army of people he can trust and respect, then an army with more firepower. 

Thus, the one thing which popped into my mind is why Adolin thinks Amaram shouldn't be named Highprince and allowed to walk free. We all know why, because he stole a Shardblade from Kaladin, he murdered his squad and he made him a slave. Adolin is not willing to push it aside and yearns for his father to do something about it, just as he wanted to do something about Sadeas. How about himself then? He murdered a Highprince. Why is he allowing himself to walk free when he condemns Amaram so readily? It must not be the action he despises, but the reasons being it and now it gets very twisted. Amaram claims what he did was for the best, Adolin thinks what he did was for the best, Amaram claims he ought to be given another chance, Adolin doesn't think he deserves it, but he never acknowledges if he deserves it himself.

Morally this is getting very complicated.... Adolin's sense of loyalty and morality is likely to get into the way. He murdered a Highprince once and he got away with it: he might do it again. Seeing how Adolin is currently incapable of seeing why his own actions were wrong likely because he feels the man he killed wasn't an innocent, unlike Kaladin and his squad. He thinks he is in the right and yeah, morally wise, he might very well be, though history tells us remove one dictator without putting anything solid in place and you open the door for a worst one to take place. When Gavilar and Dalinar killed Highprince, they had candidate to take over after them: they had a plan. Adolin just killed Sadeas without a plan for succession, without knowing what would happen and now the worst has happened. Tough luck.

If he doesn't break at the end of this, then the story will drop a notch for me. Adolin has shown us he wasn't heartless nor a psychopath: he is actually very sensitive, so one way or another, it will get to him. Hopefully not after he has dig his own grave.