Quick Fix Game 25: A Sundered Sky

[little wilson she/her]

7 hours ago, Yitzi2 said:

Secret roles in and of themselves aren't that bad.  The problem arises when either the existence of secret roles is hidden (not the case here), or when the secret roles substantially change the fundamental nature of the game (as here, where they changed it from "normal number of elims" to "few elims with powerful roles that also synergize with each other)".

This way of thinking - that there is a "normal" number of elims - and its natural follow-up - that there is a classic distribution that requires one (or two) "experienced" players, 1-2 new players, and the rest "normal" - is exactly what makes GM trolls like this so effective. Why should player number or activity in the forum be any less of something a GM can mess with than role distribution for the elim team? (A hint: it's not.)

[Yitzi2]

1 hour ago, little wilson said:

This way of thinking - that there is a "normal" number of elims - and its natural follow-up - that there is a classic distribution that requires one (or two) "experienced" players, 1-2 new players, and the rest "normal" - is exactly what makes GM trolls like this so effective. Why should player number or activity in the forum be any less of something a GM can mess with than role distribution for the elim team? (A hint: it's not.)

It is indeed exactly the same; a highly unusual role distribution for the elims (among normal roles) that made the game play differently would have had the same trolly effect even if there had been a PAFO about elim role distribution.

The basic idea is as follows: What matters isn't whether it's an effect of player number, activity, roles, unexpected rules, or any other wacky thing the GM comes up with.  What determines the effect of this sort of unexpected situation on the players' fun is (a) whether the players feel that the GM planned for it, (b) whether there were hints in the OP that it might occur, and (c) how much it changes the way that the game plays.  (How much they change the game's balance is also a factor, but a much more minor one.)  In this one, (a) and (b) were done well, but it changed the character of the game so much that it still felt trollish.  (Probably even more so than a neutral Truthless as a secret role would have, and that's classic bastard mod, to use mafiascum terminology.)

Edited August 10, 2017 by Yitzi2

[Steeldancer he/him]

And I never got to be a dustbringer. 

Future note, I always play somewhat impulsively. If I don't, you should be suspicious of me. But sometimes I'll say stuff that in the moment I know isn't squeaky clean, but I don't know how to fix it. I'm still working on that. But that is my playstyle. 

[Sparkrunner he/him]

Wow. That. Ugh.

An elim truthless?

I figured that the truthless had contact with the elims.

An elim truthless?

Uuugh...

So @Elbereth if the truthless was unaligned, and was lynched would the game end?

I thought that was the case and early on in the game I was really hoping the truthless would reveal and then get only one vote on them, so they died and won, and we did not have to worry about them.

Oh well.

An elim truthless?

[Elbereth she/her]

11 hours ago, TheMightyLopen said:

And to Elbereth...you're very cruel, y'know? :'(

I am not at all sorry.  

11 hours ago, Yitzi2 said:

Secret roles in and of themselves aren't that bad.  The problem arises when either the existence of secret roles is hidden (not the case here), or when the secret roles substantially change the fundamental nature of the game (as here, where they changed it from "normal number of elims" to "few elims with powerful roles that also synergize with each other)".

 

1 hour ago, Yitzi2 said:

It is indeed exactly the same; a highly unusual role distribution for the elims (among normal roles) that made the game play differently would have had the same trolly effect even if there had been a PAFO about elim role distribution.

The basic idea is as follows: What matters isn't whether it's an effect of player number, activity, roles, unexpected rules, or any other wacky thing the GM comes up with.  What determines the effect of this sort of unexpected situation on the players' fun is (a) whether the players feel that the GM planned for it, (b) whether there were hints in the OP that it might occur, and (c) how much it changes the way that the game plays.  (How much they change the game's balance is also a factor, but a much more minor one.)  In this one, (a) and (b) were done well, but it changed the character of the game so much that it still felt trollish.  (Probably even more so than a neutral Truthless as a secret role would have, and that's classic bastard mod, to use mafiascum terminology.)

Sorry, I don't understand why you think that's a bad thing that the way the game played changed from a normal game. Could you explain that? 

11 hours ago, _Stick_ said:

But El, you said this wasn't a Joe game...D: 

When did I say that?  

11 hours ago, Darkness Ascendant said:

El you troll. Yes what Stick said haha, I'll remember this one, I'm struggling to remember my other games  If only I had time to ge reread them (lol too bad LG37 is starting soon)

That's a lot of why I did it, and why I'm pleased with how the game turned out - this is going to be a game to remember. And we always need more of those. 

Post-game thoughts very shortly, but in another post so that they're separated from these responses. 

 

[Elbereth she/her]

Post-Game Thoughts

Balance 

There were two balance issues with this game: Orlok’s powers and Lopen. Fortunately, neither ended up coming into play. 

1. I’ve already laid out what happened with Orlok’s powers, but here I’ll explain in greater detail, and explain why I balanced it as I did. 

In order to figure out what he should have, I consulted Alv, Wilson, Joe, and discussed it a great deal with Orlok. The primary model I had to go on, of course, was MR20, in which Mage was a solitary eliminator. The difficulty lies in the fact that Mage was very overpowered, and I had to determine how much of his powers were necessary, and how much was superfluous. At the same time, there were a number of other factors in play: Orlok’s a far more high-profile player who can’t simply hang back in the shadows, because people would notice. He had to (or we thought he had to) lead several mislynches in a row in order to succeed. On the other hand, there would be a Skybreaker Truthless, which could help immensely, depending on how many people could be persuaded to vote on them. (It was going to be Aman or Lopen for a while, though, which is something of a disadvantage to the Truthless’ power.) But there aren’t any other kills in the game - so no villagers taking out villagers. And so on, and so on. 

The summary that Orlok eventually came up with fits it best, I think: he was a Serial Killer without an eliminator team to distract the village from him. 

As such, I gave him double powers of everything - two passive lives (although one of those would obviously only prolong the game another turn, since no villager would have two passive lives) brings the number of lives on the team up to 4, which is about the same as a normal eliminator team. Two protects allows him to protect himself every cycle rather than every other, but is only useful for WGGs (on himself, Stink, or anyone else he chose) and protecting from the Truthless attack. And then, since there’s only one of him, one Truthless who will die at some point, and 22 villagers, I gave him vote manipulation to get him closer to the voting power of a normal team. 

Unfortunately, that part I didn’t calculate properly. Two Riots and two Soothes is way too much. If there are eight villagers left in the game and all vote on him, here’s what happens: 
Orlok (8): 12345678
1 (1): Orlok
Two soothes and two riots goes like this:
Orlok (4): 1234
1 (3): Orlok, 56

So even with eight he’s barely outvoted. Seven ties, and six wins. If he has both lives left, and there are no other Elsecallers or vote manip left in the game? The game ends when there are eight villagers left. That’s way too much power. 

Orlok actually did the math, when he got his PM, and realised it was broken. The two Soothes were immediately taken out of the game, letting him outvote four and win with six. Which is far more similar to a normal team, and more plausible. 

What we realised later in the game is that two Riots is also somewhat broken - a Riot and a Soothe would have been better. Two Riots goes like this:
Orlok (6): 123456
1 (2): Orlok, Stink
to
Orlok (4): 1234
1 (4): Orlok, Stink, 56

You need seven votes on him to be sure of lynching him. And that’s not total - because if anyone else in this scenario is voting on one, Orlok doesn’t get lynched. It’s a seven vote lead above the number of village votes on any other player. That’s absolutely ridiculous and probably impossible, given the fear of the Truthless in the game. 

Happily, though, the game wasn’t functionally broken because of this. While that is a broken setup, Orlok deliberately didn’t use his second riot until the last turn because he’d realised it was broken and wanted to ensure that the game was balanced as best he could. Even if he hadn’t, he would have won (which was his intention) - rather than seven villagers dying to the Truthless, it would’ve been six. Orlok’s kill makes seven total village deaths, leaving four villagers alive. Even if all vote on him (and he can’t stop that lynch), he takes a hit to his passive lives while killing one and bringing it 3-1. He does the same thing the next cycle, and with one Riot he wins against two players. (Not to mention that two of the players left alive were inactive anyway.)

Therefore, in that aspect I’m satisfied with how the game played out. Two Riots for the elims is broken, but this game didn’t use them, and thus played out in a balanced way. 

2. Lopen. The problem with this one is less complicated to explain, and also didn’t come into play, but could have: 

Lopen was an Elsecaller. This is a massive disadvantage to Orlok for two reasons: 

First, it somewhat clears Lopen for a turn. Not completely, obviously, but he was at least soft-cleared. Given that he and Orlok are pretty unquestionably the two most high-profile players in the game, that’s very, very dangerous for Orlok. Normally I wouldn’t worry about this for a team, but unlike most teams, this one could not afford to take a hit. Because there were only two of them. 

Secondly, it takes away a great deal of the use of his passive lives. Rather than taking two hits, he only needs one to be fairly confirmed as an eliminator. Because while it’s somewhat unlikely that Lopen and Orlok are both villagers, from a balance perspective it’s essentially impossible that both of them are village Elsecallers. If Orlok had taken a hit, the most he could’ve done is tried to take Lopen down first, and been lynched constantly once Lopen was revealed as good. 

These ended up not being an issue. Orlok didn’t take a hit, and Lopen wasn’t cleared from the hit he took, and Orlok ended up just manipulating Lopen instead. 

Other

Distribution - Orlok was an eliminator because he helped me come up with this game and refine it, and so knew the twist of only having one eliminator. Stink was an eliminator because it needed to be someone who synergised well with Orlok, and while Lopen was a consideration for a time, I’m very glad that we went with Stink. 

Writeups - I really liked that I did them in present tense (and wanted to do them in first person as well, but decided that would be too telling), but it was annoyingly hard. I also wish I could’ve included more studying-so-and-so-Order in them, but sadly didn’t end up doing so. 

Confirmed Good Is Not Confirmed Right - this got discussed some this game, and I think my thoughts on this are worth bringing up again. Not only are confirmed good players not confirmed right, but you are also confirmed good. If a player has died and turned out to be good, then their opinions were likely not meant to deceive you. But I’ve never understood why people put those opinions over their own, since every villager is equally confirmed good to themselves. 

Commendations

To Orlok and Stink: they made a magnificent plan together. I suggest going to the eliminator doc and reading it (I believe it’s in Cycle 5), but it’s worth pointing out here too. It’s a perfect example of why they were on a team together: Orlok thought of Stink suggesting that he’s Truthless to the thread. It was Stink’s idea to say that Orlok had claimed it rather than merely suggest it, and Orlok’s to do so specifically to Lopen rather than the entire thread. That claim essentially ensured Stink’s death: if Lopen believed Stink, he would go to Orlok (who was claiming to be neutral but in contact with the elim team), and Orlok would give him Stink. (The other option is if Lopen didn’t believe Stink - in which case he’s much more suspicious of Stink anyway.) Lopen and Orlok working together to lynch Stink was practically guaranteed to get a lot of votes. 

Stink: For playing brilliantly as an eliminator pretending to be Truthless, while actually being a Truthless eliminator. 
Also, to the people who passed Stink off as village on the logic that “he always does this”: you realise that you were essentially saying that non-alignment indicative things meant that he was village, correct? 

Orlok: For strategising, remaining mostly out of suspicion despite being in the spotlight alone, and for manipulating Lopen. (In particular, for the efforts to tell Lopen that his best move was actually to out the plan to the thread and have no village deaths for a turn. Unfortunately, Lopen is slightly too kind.)
Also, for his strategy in eliminator kills: he made a list of players who were recently returned, new, or had died early in games recently. Everyone not in one of those three categories were the players crossed off first. I greatly approve of this kind of strategy. Also, on a similar note, not killing to stifle discussion. That made this QF much more active than usual for a significantly longer time, and it was wonderful. 

Jondesu: For being one of the only sensible voices in the last cycle. You refused to vote on Stink because the lynch was ridiculously suspicious, and very rightly. 

Lopen: For doing really well with the information you had. Sadly, your information was somewhat flawed. But congrats anyway for being suspicious of Orlok. And also, not being evil! For once!

Docs
The Halls of Judgement
The End of Days
Master Spreadsheet

I hope you all enjoyed this game, and I look forward to seeing you in the next one.  

Edited August 10, 2017 by Elbereth

[Stick. she/her]

49 minutes ago, Elbereth said:

When did I say that?  

When I changed the background colour of the dead doc and you told us you'd change it back. You said this isn't a joe game or something like that

Also, was this possibly the longest QF yet? Page-wise?

Edited August 10, 2017 by _Stick_

[Steeldancer he/him]

well. ok then. i lost.

I honestly only just figured out (even after the write up) that Orlok was an eliminator.

Time for another game lol!

[Eternum he/him]

Man. One heck of a first game, I suppose. It was very very fun, nonetheless.

Also, I think that the fact so many people were suspicious of me helped, in the end. Sure, we lost, but I did get some insight to all you guys' thought processes, so yay? Always look forward, I guess.

Well played, Orlok, Stink. Had me fooled, that's for sure.

Stink, I don't think I'll ever be able to trust you again, ever.

[Steeldancer he/him]

Just now, Eternum said:

Man. One heck of a first game, I suppose. It was very very fun, nonetheless.

Also, I think that the fact so many people were suspicious of me helped, in the end. Sure, we lost, but I did get some insight to all you guys' thought processes, so yay? Always look forward, I guess.

Well played, Orlok, Stink. Had me fooled, that's for sure.

Stink, I don't think I'll ever be able to trust you again, ever.

You should never trust stink anyway. Hes just playing this game to be a troll. He was the perfect truthless

[Eternum he/him]

1 minute ago, Flash said:

You should never trust stink anyway. Hes just playing this game to be a troll. He was the perfect truthless

Yeah, I think he was.

Again, GG.

[Orlok Tsubodai]

13 minutes ago, Flash said:

You should never trust stink anyway. Hes just playing this game to be a troll. He was the perfect truthless

Actually, @Flash, I think Stink deserves credit for very well executed deception. Both Stink and I were targeting specific behaviours - I was trying to draw just enough suspicion to make it look like I was trying to draw suspicion, and so be considered Truthless rather than evil. Stink was, as the Truthless, playing an eliminator acting as Truthless, trying to make it look like he'd failed, and so drawing votes. I thought Stink pulled this off spectacularly, and it's certainly something far beyond merely being a troll.

Quote

@Magestar @Jondesu @Roadwalker @Sart @overlordjebus @Ecthelion III, mind adding your vote to Stink? I don't want a hammer to be pulled, and not voting leaves things wide open for one. Especially if they have vote manipulation. At this point, I don't think any of us voting on Stink are going to change our minds, so splitting the votes by voting someone else will more than likely end up working in the elims favor.

@TheMightyLopen, I'd like to commend you for your assistance, which was much appreciated.

More seriously, you're an excellent person, and I felt awful manipulating you. I made it clear several times in our PM that your best move was to out me to the thread as having revealed Stink, and get me eliminator killed, going a cycle without a village death, but instead of doing so, you came up with suggestions for how I could win as a Truthless, even if the village had lost.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Orlok Tsubodai

[STINK he/him]

14 hours ago, Drake Marshall said:

STINK was the perfect choice for a truthless, honestly... 

Heh, I'm glad that this wasn't said at the beginning of the game

13 hours ago, Yitzi2 said:

Secret roles in and of themselves aren't that bad.  The problem arises when either the existence of secret roles is hidden (not the case here), or when the secret roles substantially change the fundamental nature of the game (as here, where they changed it from "normal number of elims" to "few elims with powerful roles that also synergize with each other)".

In terms of the synergy idea, I'd say that Orlok's synergy with me is about the same as having a team of 4 people would've been. Yes, Orlok has riots, but if I had 3 other people all gunning for me to be lynched, it's more likely that other villagers would join in. Also, my role isn't that powerful when you think of all the conditions it has, such as not being able to use it early-game because it's not worth it, others being aware that the role exists and being cautions of it, and then how it basically needs to be used at the end when we probably could have pulled out a win anyway. Orlok was strong yes, but we sacrificed 2 teammates for that power

9 hours ago, Magestar said:

But there's a reason I didn't vote on STINK.

Not that it matters at this point.  Well played, guys.  I can't say I had any idea Orlok was evil.  Good game.

I don't know why I listened to STINK in the first place.  

I mean, I never said that I was good. Or that Orlok was good, just that you never know what you'll get with me, and that Lopen and Orlok being the same alignment? A silly idea. 

Please keep listening to me

3 hours ago, Yitzi2 said:

It is indeed exactly the same; a highly unusual role distribution for the elims (among normal roles) that made the game play differently would have had the same trolly effect even if there had been a PAFO about elim role distribution.

The basic idea is as follows: What matters isn't whether it's an effect of player number, activity, roles, unexpected rules, or any other wacky thing the GM comes up with.  What determines the effect of this sort of unexpected situation on the players' fun is (a) whether the players feel that the GM planned for it, (b) whether there were hints in the OP that it might occur, and (c) how much it changes the way that the game plays.  (How much they change the game's balance is also a factor, but a much more minor one.)  In this one, (a) and (b) were done well, but it changed the character of the game so much that it still felt trollish.  (Probably even more so than a neutral Truthless as a secret role would have, and that's classic bastard mod, to use mafiascum terminology.)

I mean, Orlok was actually basically a Rioter for that whole game, so the 'character' of the game didn't change at all. Mistakes were made by the Village, but that doesn't mean the balance was bad. 

2 hours ago, Elbereth said:

 Orlok ended up just manipulating Lopen instead. 

---------------------------------------------------

Orlok: For strategising, remaining mostly out of suspicion despite being in the spotlight alone, and for manipulating Lopen. (In particular, for the efforts to tell Lopen that his best move was actually to out the plan to the thread and have no village deaths for a turn. Unfortunately, Lopen is slightly too kind.)
Also, for his strategy in eliminator kills: he made a list of players who were recently returned, new, or had died early in games recently. Everyone not in one of those three categories were the players crossed off first. I greatly approve of this kind of strategy. Also, on a similar note, not killing to stifle discussion. That made this QF much more active than usual for a significantly longer time, and it was wonderful. 

 

I wasn't even aware about what was going on in the PM with Lopen! Seriously though, Orlok's a great teammate, y'all. He did like basically everything for me, and even dealt with my stupid comments

23 minutes ago, Eternum said:

Stink, I don't think I'll ever be able to trust you again, ever.

As I said to Mage, I didn't actually lie! Jeez, just 'cause you all read me good for talking about pizza doesn't mean you shouldn't trust me! 

But seriously, thanks to Orlok for being like the best teammate, and thanks to El for being so on top of things! 

(also sorry to Winter for being rude to you but it was the best way to get you to vote for me so yeah soz)

[TheMightyLopen he/him]

3 hours ago, Elbereth said:

Post-Game Thoughts

Balance 

There were two balance issues with this game: Orlok’s powers and Lopen. Fortunately, neither ended up coming into play. 

1. 

2. Lopen. The problem with this one is less complicated to explain, and also didn’t come into play, but could have: 

Lopen was an Elsecaller. This is a massive disadvantage to Orlok for two reasons: 

First, it somewhat clears Lopen for a turn. Not completely, obviously, but he was at least soft-cleared. Given that he and Orlok are pretty unquestionably the two most high-profile players in the game, that’s very, very dangerous for Orlok. Normally I wouldn’t worry about this for a team, but unlike most teams, this one could not afford to take a hit. Because there were only two of them. 

Secondly, it takes away a great deal of the use of his passive lives. Rather than taking two hits, he only needs one to be fairly confirmed as an eliminator. Because while it’s somewhat unlikely that Lopen and Orlok are both villagers, from a balance perspective it’s essentially impossible that both of them are village Elsecallers. If Orlok had taken a hit, the most he could’ve done is tried to take Lopen down first, and been lynched constantly once Lopen was revealed as good. 

These ended up not being an issue. Orlok didn’t take a hit, and Lopen wasn’t cleared from the hit he took, and Orlok ended up just manipulating Lopen instead. 

Commendations

To Orlok and Stink: they made a magnificent plan together. I suggest going to the eliminator doc and reading it (I believe it’s in Cycle 5), but it’s worth pointing out here too. It’s a perfect example of why they were on a team together: Orlok thought of Stink suggesting that he’s Truthless to the thread. It was Stink’s idea to say that Orlok had claimed it rather than merely suggest it, and Orlok’s to do so specifically to Lopen rather than the entire thread. That claim essentially ensured Stink’s death: if Lopen believed Stink, he would go to Orlok (who was claiming to be neutral but in contact with the elim team), and Orlok would give him Stink. (The other option is if Lopen didn’t believe Stink - in which case he’s much more suspicious of Stink anyway.) Lopen and Orlok working together to lynch Stink was practically guaranteed to get a lot of votes. 

Stink: For playing brilliantly as an eliminator pretending to be Truthless, while actually being a Truthless eliminator. 
Also, to the people who passed Stink off as village on the logic that “he always does this”: you realise that you were essentially saying that non-alignment indicative things meant that he was village, correct? 

Orlok: For strategising, remaining mostly out of suspicion despite being in the spotlight alone, and for manipulating Lopen. (In particular, for the efforts to tell Lopen that his best move was actually to out the plan to the thread and have no village deaths for a turn. Unfortunately, Lopen is slightly too kind.)
Also, for his strategy in eliminator kills: he made a list of players who were recently returned, new, or had died early in games recently. Everyone not in one of those three categories were the players crossed off first. I greatly approve of this kind of strategy. Also, on a similar note, not killing to stifle discussion. That made this QF much more active than usual for a significantly longer time, and it was wonderful.

Lopen: For doing really well with the information you had. Sadly, your information was somewhat flawed. But congrats anyway for being suspicious of Orlok. And also, not being evil! For once!

 

Anytime I get an extra life or something to survive longer, I feel like something's up.

I'd had a weird feeling about Orlok since pretty early on, and when I posted my reasons for suspecting him and then voted on him, I did actually consider that the kills up to that point hinted at Orlok being evil. Sadly, that's when Stink told me he'd claimed Truthless, and that assuaged my suspicions since I wasn't entirely sure about Orlok, and him being Truthless seemed to explain away the reasons I had for suspecting him.

At the end of the game, I started being worried that something was off, because of how Stink was acting, and because the players I thought were most likely to be the eliminators(Mage, Jondesu, Eternum, Sart) weren't acting like I thought they would as eliminators. I was positive that Winter, DA, Elith, and Ecth were good, due to knowing Stink was evil, so I was very confused. Sadly, I didn't put all of the pieces together.

2 hours ago, Eternum said:

Man. One heck of a first game, I suppose. It was very very fun, nonetheless.

Also, I think that the fact so many people were suspicious of me helped, in the end. Sure, we lost, but I did get some insight to all you guys' thought processes, so yay? Always look forward, I guess.

Well played, Orlok, Stink. Had me fooled, that's for sure.

Stink, I don't think I'll ever be able to trust you again, ever.

I was only suspicious of you at the end because I couldn't find any better suspects!  I think you did pretty well for your first game, honestly.

1 hour ago, Orlok Tsubodai said:

Actually, @Flash, I think Stink deserves credit for very well executed deception. Both Stink and I were targeting specific behaviours - I was trying to draw just enough suspicion to make it look like I was trying to draw suspicion, and so be considered Truthless rather than evil. Stink was, as the Truthless, playing an eliminator acting as Truthless, trying to make it look like he'd failed, and so drawing votes. I thought Stink pulled this off spectacularly, and it's certainly something far beyond merely being a troll.

@TheMightyLopen, I'd like to commend you for your assistance, which was much appreciated.

More seriously, you're an excellent person, and I felt awful manipulating you. I made it clear several times in our PM that your best move was to out me to the thread as having revealed Stink, and get me eliminator killed, going a cycle without a village death, but instead of doing so, you came up with suggestions for how I could win as a Truthless, even if the village had lost.

Sigh. One other reason I felt weird about the Stink lynch was because of those upvotes. I had a feeling they were ironic somehow. >>

Thanks, I'll take consolation in your guilt.  But for real, well played, and no hard feelings.

[Yitzi2]

18 hours ago, Elbereth said:

Sorry, I don't understand why you think that's a bad thing that the way the game played changed from a normal game. Could you explain that?

Because you get players who feel "this isn't what I signed up for".  If it had played very differently and we'd known that when signing up, that would be one thing...but expecting a more normal game and then not getting it is the sort of thing that a lot of people don't enjoy.

 

(That said, the "kills everybody who votes for them" was a very insightful way to make a known Jester into a very interesting mechanic that brings the entire game to the next level, and would likely have made this a game to remember even if the Truthless had been neutral and the elims had had a normal composition.)

Edited August 11, 2017 by Yitzi2

[little wilson she/her]

2 hours ago, Yitzi2 said:

Because you get players who feel "this isn't what I signed up for".  If it had played very differently and we'd known that when signing up, that would be one thing...but expecting a more normal game and then not getting it is the sort of thing that a lot of people don't enjoy.

She PAFO'd it, and it's not like the change was some hugely drastic role addition. It was a single role that duplicated abilities that were already in the rules, to make up for the lack of people on that person's team. Secret? Sure. A huge difference to what people were expecting? No. The known abilities in the game stayed the same.

[Elbereth she/her]

Interesting. I could see that coming into play if it were something like MR18, where it was made very, very clear that it was a normal game. I don't think that it does so here: it isn't the GM's duty to give the players what the players think is the "right" distribution. As this game shows, there isn't one right distribution. The players should not be able to predict the GM, in my opinion: even when there are not secrets, it is up to the players to consider every possibility. This particularly applies to the Skybreaker Truthless more than Nale, in this game - the Truthless was very, very deliberately under the "roles" section, not the "alignment" one. Just because it's not expected, in my opinion, is no reason something shouldn't be done - and is arguably a reason for it to be done. 

The other point regarding expectations: that was not my goal for this game. This game was intended to teach players not to expect particular role/eliminator team distributions just because they're used to them, to create a game to be remembered, and also to give Stink the opportunity to show that he's a dangerous player. 

To be more direct. Did you dislike this game because of the difference between it and what you expected? I certainly don't get the impression that anyone else had less fun because of it (though please speak up if you did, because that's the kind of thing that's very important to know). 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Elbereth

[Sparkrunner he/him]

Would any of the New Recruits ever actually get a role?

(Len studying Truthlessness :P)

[Eternum he/him]

Eh. It was probably for like, writeup purposes. If for some reason a New Recruit won the game for everyone, they'd swear the last oath or something, yadda yadda. Or, maybe, there was a way to actually become a Radiant mid-game which I doubt.

[Jondesu he/him]

1 hour ago, Eternum said:

Eh. It was probably for like, writeup purposes. If for some reason a New Recruit won the game for everyone, they'd swear the last oath or something, yadda yadda. Or, maybe, there was a way to actually become a Radiant mid-game which I doubt.

That has definitely been used in previous games, though, and I wouldn't be shocked if El had decided to include that, at least as an option in case game balancing was needed.  Turning a recruit into a role that had been lost could have been a nice option to have.

[Eternum he/him]

Well, it didn't happen, so I doubt it was planned.

[Yitzi2]

On 8/10/2017 at 1:24 PM, Elbereth said:

Post-Game Thoughts

Balance 

There were two balance issues with this game: Orlok’s powers and Lopen. Fortunately, neither ended up coming into play.

Actually, Orlok's did come into play: Some of those last-cycle votes on Stink seem to have been from Orlok's manipulation.

(Note, by the way, that having two riots per turn plus knowing who the Truthless was pretty much meant that unless Orlok was taken out first, Stink was guaranteed to take out a LOT of villagers in his death, as if there were few votes Orlok could remove them from Stink, and if there were too many to do that he could add even more.)

22 hours ago, STINK said:

In terms of the synergy idea, I'd say that Orlok's synergy with me is about the same as having a team of 4 people would've been. Yes, Orlok has riots, but if I had 3 other people all gunning for me to be lynched, it's more likely that other villagers would join in.

Only up to a point, because we all knew about the danger of the Truthless.

But with Orlok having 2 riots per turn, that essentially amounts to 4 extra kills (2 because we need two more to lynch you, and 2 because he can then riot two people to you).  An elim jester is essentially already worth a number of kills equal to one more than the number of elims (so 3), and the 2 riots mean that Orlok would essentially win if he could get it down to 4 villagers plus himself...I'd say as a rough estimate that your role was worth 1 extra elim, Orlok's role was worth 1 extra elim, and the synergy between them was worth 2 extra elims.  So the elim team was somewhat stronger than standard, though not ridiculously so.

3 hours ago, little wilson said:

She PAFO'd it, and it's not like the change was some hugely drastic role addition. It was a single role that duplicated abilities that were already in the rules, to make up for the lack of people on that person's team. Secret? Sure. A huge difference to what people were expecting? No. The known abilities in the game stayed the same.

The nature of the game is a function not only of the known abilities, but how they interact.  For instance, the normal expectation with a "vote on him and you die" role is that he can catch elims as well as villagers; a role without that effect is a functionally different role, even if the effect is the same.  A Rioter who knows who the Truthless is is a functionally different role than one who doesn't, because he has a very different use for his Riot.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Yitzi2

[little wilson she/her]

You should probably reread what El said, Yitzi. Because it looks like you missed some of her comments. Namely the one that said that Orlok never even used the second riot until the very last turn, when not using it still would've resulted in them winning, due to the two inactives in the game. For how Orlok used his abilities in the game, he was functionally just a single Rioter with a couple extra lives. That's all.

If you want to complain about every game you lose, be my guest, but don't try to say that no one else has fun when it's really just you that isn't having fun.

[Elenion he/him]

@Elbereth  I wouldn't say that it negatively affected my game experience, but I do concur with Yitzi that the specific role distribution made the optimal strategy for this game very different than usual. Had I known the Truthless was elim I would have had a very different approach to the game.

One issue I did have with the game, though, was that I took so much flak for my suspicion of Orlok based on reasoning that the elims needed to have a very experienced and active player, both while I was living and especially while I was dead. I completely understand if you don't agree with my suspicions, but when it goes so far as to say "you shouldn't reason like that" that's taking it too far. With all the discussion recently about how "sub-optimal" play is a part of the game and contributes to the fun, I'm surprised to still have players telling me how I should and should not choose my suspicions.

[Elbereth she/her]

23 minutes ago, little wilson said:

You should probably reread what El said, Yitzi. Because it looks like you missed some of her comments. Namely the one that said that Orlok never even used the second riot until the very last turn, when not using it still would've resulted in them winning, due to the two inactives in the game. For how Orlok used his abilities in the game, he was functionally just a single Rioter with a couple extra lives. That's all.

Not quite, actually - even if the inactives had both been active he would've won with a single riot. One Riot and two passive lives wins against four villagers, which is who would've been left alive.