The Art of Game Creation

[DrakeMarshall]

35 minutes ago, little wilson said:

Drake, could we try running your simulation on some other games? I'm curious how it would turn out...

I'm also curious if it would be possible to program in specific types of players to see how that changes things. The generic works, but I'm thinking in like the future if a GM knows the player list and could be slightly more specific, just to get a slightly more balanced distribution.

It is possible to code individual behaviors for each player... However those behaviors would have to follow very clearly defined rules to be easily implemented.

Currently, things like the relative active-ness, proclivity to join bandwagons, accuracy of intuition, and other traits are all uniform for each player, and the possible outcomes is largely determined by RNG.

The global "intuition" and "active-ness" variables both gradually increase over the course of a game, following a nonlinear equation based on how many cycles have passed in the game and the total number of living players.

 

Also yes, I can try running it on other setups.

I've already used it to get some estimates for balancing a QF layout I've proposed on this thread a while ago.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Drake Marshall

[little wilson]

15 minutes ago, Drake Marshall said:

It is possible to code individual behaviors for each player... However those behaviors would have to follow very clearly defined rules to be easily implemented.

Currently, things like the relative active-ness, proclivity to join bandwagons, accuracy of intuition, and other traits are all uniform for each player, and the possible outcomes is largely determined by RNG.

The global "intuition" and "active-ness" variables both gradually increase over the course of a game, following a nonlinear equation based on how many cycles have passed in the game and the total number of living players.

 

Also yes, I can try running it on other setups.

I've already used it to get some estimates for balancing a QF layout I've proposed on this thread a while ago.

Activeness should actually probably decrease over the course of the game. That's usually what happens. The eliminators generally kill off the super-active players and people go inactive over the course of the game and aren't killed off unless there's an inactivity filter or a vigilante willing to kill inactives (most aren't).

I'll probably talk to you more about this in PM when I'm not at work because this sounds fascinating. I was skeptical of it when you first brought it up, but I know Meta set up the last AG trying to balance things more in favor of the village (not hugely so, but a bit), because the eliminators had won the other 3 Tyrian Falls games up to that point. So the fact that the simulation noticed that makes me a lot more curious about it.

[Steeldancer]

Wait a second. The elims have won every single AG?!

A challenge it is.

[little wilson]

37 minutes ago, Flash said:

Wait a second. The elims have won every single AG?!

A challenge it is.

Yeah. But since Meta probably won't be GMing this next AG, the odds of the village winning are much, much higher. So not really a challenge.

LG eliminator win rate: 40%
LG eliminator win-rate not counting games Meta GMed: 31%.

So...yeah. Please note that those percentages have actually been climbing the last year. That second percentage was about 20% a year ago. (For comparison's sake, the MR and QF elim win-rates are 52% and 55% respectively)

[DrakeMarshall]

45 minutes ago, little wilson said:

Activeness should actually probably decrease over the course of the game. That's usually what happens. The eliminators generally kill off the super-active players and people go inactive over the course of the game and aren't killed off unless there's an inactivity filter or a vigilante willing to kill inactives (most aren't).

Hm. Good point.

I was thinking that when it gets close to lynch-or-lose scenario, people are more likely to vote.

But they are also generally a less active group than the player list at the beginning of the game, because you are right, the super-active players are often elim-killed or lynched.

[Straw]

Drake, can your simulator handle slightly more complex games (I.e. Faction games, free-for-alls, LG37, hidden info games)?

[DrakeMarshall]

20 minutes ago, Straw said:

Drake, can your simulator handle slightly more complex games (I.e. Faction games, free-for-alls, LG37, hidden info games)?

Theoretically? Yes. I've built it so that village and eliminator factions aren't hard-coded.

Although there is an "informed minority" variable associated with a faction which will make it basically act like an eliminator faction.

[Straw]

Can your simulator simulate conversion mechanics and neutrals with special win conditions?

[DrakeMarshall]

Yes and yes.

Although if the win condition isn't something straightforward like not dying, special win conditions will require some assumptions about how players will act to achieve their win.

[Straw]

So... This is the probably the final iteration for the LG I'll be running. Any and all thoughts are highly appreciated.

Basics:

 

-Cycles are 69 (day)/ 45 (night) hours long. Turn will end at 9 PM GMT. Next turn will be posted at 12 AM (Midnight) GMT.

-PMs are not allowed.
-This game is role madness.
-This game is a 5 faction game.
-Make votes in red (Example without the asterisk), retract votes in green (Example without the asterisk).
-If you do not post or put in actions for 4 cycles without explanation, you will die in a humiliating way.
-Votes are cast during the day.
-Actions are put in during the night.
-Each cycle you have one miscellaneous action, and one social action.

Factions:

 

Win condition: Kill everyone who is not a member of your faction. Every faction has a Google doc.

-Venture
-Hasting
-Elariel
-Tekiel
-Lekal

Roles:

 

Every player has a social role and some players also get an allomantic role.

Social Roles:
-Gossip: Every cycle you discover the alignment of a random player. This is a passive ability.
-Informant: Every cycle you discover the role of a random player. This is a passive ability.
-Well Connected: You have one vote taken off you. This is a passive ability.
-Orator: Your vote counts as 2 votes. This is a passive ability.
-Secretive: You can put in your vote via GM PM. This is a passive ability.
-Shy: Each cycle you can send an anonymous note to a player of your choice. This is an active ability.
-Romantic: You start the game with a PM with another romantic. Neither of you can put in any actions that target the other romantic. This is a passive ability.
-Underground Contacts: A random player that targets you is roleblocked for the next cycle. This is a passive ability.

Allomantic Roles:
-Mistborn: You can use every allomantic power once. This is an active ability.
-Coinshot: Each cycle you can kill a player of your choice. This is an active ability.
-Lurcher: Each cycle you can protect a player of your choice. You cannot self protect. This is an active ability.
-Thug: You can survive one kill attempt. This is a passive ability.
-Tineye: You can create PMs with other players (group PMs are not allowed) (GM must be included in all PMs). This is an passive ability.
-Rioter: You can change a player’s vote (using this ability cancels your own vote). This is an active ability.
-Soother: You can cancel one vote. This is an active ability.
-Seeker: Each cycle you can discover the role and alignment of a player of your choice. This is an active ability.
-Smoker: You are immune to seeking, soothing, and rioting. If you want to, you can turn this bubble off for as long as you want. This is a passive ability.

Balls:

 

Balls happen every even night. During the ball, players can talk in group PMs. Players will decide what group PM they will be in during the ball the next cycle on odd cycles. Players who do not decide on a group PM will be placed in the group PM with the fewest members. As the number of players decreases, so does the number of PMs. During a ball there will be 5 group PMs:
-Entrance. (25+ players in game)
-Dining Hall. (20+ players in game)
-Dance Floor. (15+ players in game)
-Balconies. (10+ players in game)
-Great Hall. (5+ players in game)

Extra:

 

-Every third cycle, the faction with the least members will gain an allomantic power
-Because I'm not very good at writing, anyone who joins the spec doc and wants to write the writeup can do it.

Clarifications:

 

-If a player with the Secretive role does not enter a vote in the GM PM, they will be marked down as no vote.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Straw

[DrakeMarshall]

I remember I once considered a mistborn faction game, a long time ago.

It basically had a few great houses, some eliminator-ish skaa rebels in their midst, and also a small faction of obligators. The obligators simply wanted to wipe out the skaa rebels, and the other great houses, in a similar way to MR19, wanted to wipe out the skaa rebels but end up being more numerous then the other houses. The obligators would potentially have access to a means of motivating each great house not to simply war with each other, although depending on how things went, it could still spin out of control and turn into a house war.

I never really developed or balanced it enough to consider running/signup up for it. I don't think I ever will run it.

But I remember I had one idea that I rather liked.

 

Each of the great houses would take turns hosting everybody at a ball.

Whoever was hosting that night got a kill.

This helped dilute the total number of kills-per-cycle in the game, while still giving each of those houses a means to further their objective.

It was also a nice source of confusion, because it wouldn't necessarily be possible to determine the source of a kill. Maybe the recent kill was one house trying to betray another... Or maybe it was just the skaa rebels trying to play the houses against each other.

 

I know your game would be structured a little differently than this. But feel free to salvage any ideas from this, if you want.

[Straw]

Random LG idea:

Basics:

 

-Each day will last 70 hours, and each night will last 22 hours.
-Each turn will end at 5:00 PM EST and the next turn will start at 7:00 PM EST.
-This game will have four factions.
-This game is a Conversion game.
-If you do not post or PM for 3 cycles without explanation, you will die.
-In this game, there are two lynches, one is during the day, which functions as animal lynch. However, during the night, you can put in your vote via your GM PM, and the vote is anonymous and has no vote counter.
-When a player is converted to a new faction, they retain access to the Google doc of their old faction, but gain the win condition of their new faction, and also gain access to the google doc of their new faction.
-You can make unlimited PMs, however, no group PMs are allowed.
-All PMs should include the GMs. All PM title must be formatted like this: LG__: Player and Player

Factions:

 

Normal Person:

You’re a normal person who just wants to get rid of all these stupid secret societies! Your goal is to eliminate everyone who isn't in your faction.

Ghostbloods:

You start with one person in your faction, however, you can convert one player to your faction each night turn, until you've converted four players. If a player in your faction dies, you do not get another conversion. If a player in your faction is converted to another faction, all Ghostbloods are informed about it, and you can convert an extra player. Your goal is to eliminate everyone who isn't in your faction.

Diagrammists:

You start with one person in your faction, however, you can convert one player to your faction each night turn, until you've converted four players. If a player in your faction dies, you do not get another conversion. If a player in your faction is converted to another faction, all Diagrammists are informed about it, and you can convert an extra player. Your goal is to eliminate everyone who isn't in your faction.

Sons of Honor:

You start with one person in your faction, however, you can convert one player to your faction each night turn, until you've converted four players. If a player in your faction dies, you do not get another conversion. If a player in your faction is converted to another faction, all Sons of Honor are informed about it, and you can convert an extra player. Your goal is to eliminate everyone who isn't in your faction.

Roles:

 

Shardplate: You can survive one kill/lynch.

Shardblade: Each turn you can use your shardblade to threaten one player, stopping them from taking any actions.

Surgebinder: Surgebinders are of a random order, with each order being able to access two of the surges. Each surgebinder only has access to one surge per cycle, and the surge they have access to will be randomly decided, with one order having a 75% chance of having it, and the other order having a 25% chance. The surge available to the Surgebinder will be decided at the start of each cycle.
List of Surges:
-Adhesion (25% Bondsmiths, 75% Windrunners): You stick a player to the wall, stopping them from using any actions.
-Gravitation (25% Windrunners, 75% Skybreakers): You flip a player around, causing them to accidentally target a player of your choice.
-Division (25% Skybreakers, 75% Dustbringers): You block all conversion attempts on a player of your choice.
-Abrasion (25% Dustbringers, 75% Edgedancers): You steal a player’s stuff without them noticing, allowing you to discover their role.
-Regrowth (25% Edgedancers, 75% Truthwatchers): You protect one player, saving them from death.
-Illumination (25% Truthwatchers, 75% Lightweavers): You make an illusion of another person voting on a player, allowing you to put in a second vote via PM.
-Transformation (25% Lightweavers, 75% Elsecallers): You threaten to turn another player into a pile of ashes if they don't change their vote to another player, naturally, they obey your request.
-Transportation (25% Elsecallers, 75% Willshapers): You teleport into another player’s rooms while they’re sleeping and rifle through their belongings, allowing you to discover their alignment.
-Cohesion (25% Willshapers, 75% Stonewards): You automatically seal your belongings into a stone block, stopping anyone from discovering your role and alignment while you have this surge (if you die on a cycle on which you are using this surge, your role and alignment are not revealed).
-Tension (25% Stonewards, 75% Bondsmiths): You automatically make your clothes incredibly hard, allowing you to survive one kill attempt.

Spanreed: Each cycle, you can send an anonymous message to another player.

Spy: Each cycle, you can scan a player to discover their role and alignment.

Guard: Each cycle, you can target one player and discover every action they took.

Investigator: Each cycle, you can target one player and discover who they have PMs with.

Nobleman: You can choose what role and alignment you appear as.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Straw

[A Joe in the Bush]

5 hours ago, Straw said:

Ghostbloods:

You start with one person in your faction, however, you can convert one player to your faction each night turn, until you've converted four players. If a player in your faction is converted to another faction, all Ghostbloods are informed about it, and you can convert an extra player. Your goal is to eliminate everyone who isn't in your faction.

Diagrammists:

You start with one person in your faction, however, you can convert one player to your faction each night turn, until you've converted four players. If a player in your faction is converted to another faction, all Ghostbloods are informed about it, and you can convert an extra player. Your goal is to eliminate everyone who isn't in your faction.

Sons of Honor:

You start with one person in your faction, however, you can convert one player to your faction each night turn, until you've converted four players. If a player in your faction is converted to another faction, all Ghostbloods are informed about it, and you can convert an extra player. Your goal is to eliminate everyone who isn't in your faction.

Right off the bat, i assume you copy/pasted the description, and forgot to change it from the Ghostbloods being informed of it? Or are the ghostbloods just the most powerful?

Secondly, and more importantly, The Village CANNOT win. At All. Since the secret factions can convert 1 player each turn, that means anywhere between 0 to 3 villagers down a turn, and to kill a secret faction, All of their members need to be killed or converted on the same turn. The village cannot do this with only a lynch. At most, by working with a secret faction, the village can defeat two secret factions by lynching and converting from them turn after turn. Which leaves just the village with an unkillable secret faction.

Well, not quite the ore i think about it. Technically they could win using roleblocks, but that would only work if the conversion action is a player action, rather than a faction action. It would also require the village to be working together without any doubts of eachother's alignment. So, in order for this game to be balanced, with all the factions and village having an equal chance of winning, there either needs to be a lot of Willshapers (Or spies) and Windrunners (Or Shardblades) Or you need to replace some of the Roles with kill roles, than have a lot of kill orles and defense roles.

[Aonar]

Hmm. I'm not sure if that's quite true, Joe. The wording here is super vague; are the factions all straight limited Converters, limited Conversion killers, or unlimited versions of the above? If it's the first, it might be semi-balanced, although I'd recommend having the convert number be a % of all players, rather than a set number (TBH, 4 is too big for any game with less than 30 players, and even at 30 it's on the large side), and you'd have to be prepared for a really long game, since the only kill is the lynch.

If it's the second... yeah. It's very nearly straight up unwinnable for the village. Even with numerous protects and roleblocks, they'd have to use them perfectly to win. Sure, the Elim factions are going to interfere with each other, but all that really means is that your Elim factions are balanced against each other, with the village serving as kingmakers, rather than active participants. The village's main chance of winning would be from the Elims almost exclusively focusing on each other.

And if it's one of the third... no. Just no.  Unlimited converters can work developed properly with the right countermeasures; (which this game doesn't have), I'm not sure if I've ever seen unlimited conversion killers in an unbroken way.

[A Joe in the Bush]

You are right Aonar, but the wording to me implies that the Factions can always convert if they have less than 4 players.

Incidently, now i want to make a balanced game with an unlimited conversion killer. . . hmm

[DrakeMarshall]

1 minute ago, A Joe in the Bush said:

You are right Aonar, but the wording to me implies that the Factions can always convert if they have less than 4 players.

Incidently, now i want to make a balanced game with an unlimited conversion killer. . . hmm

When you say unlimited, do you mean that you wouldn't even let it be limited to every-other-cycle or something like that?

If so, that'd take some pretty powerful roles to counter it. 

[A Joe in the Bush]

Just now, Drake Marshall said:

When you say unlimited, do you mean that you wouldn't even let it be limited to every-other-cycle or something like that?

If so, that'd take some pretty powerful roles to counter it. 

Every night, the player can convert a player to their win condition.

[DrakeMarshall]

6 minutes ago, A Joe in the Bush said:

Every night, the player can convert a player to their win condition.

Hah, good luck 

I dare you to make the convert a faction ability, instead of tied to a single cult leader 

[A Joe in the Bush]

7 minutes ago, Drake Marshall said:

Hah, good luck 

I dare you to make the convert a faction ability, instead of tied to a single cult leader 

I'm rambling about ideas in Discord right now =P

[Straw]

@A Joe in the Bush Basically, each faction has 4 conversions that they can use to convert players. If a player who has been converted into their faction is converted to another faction, the faction whose player has been converted gains 1 conversion. When a player dies, the faction who had that player doesn't gain a conversion point.

[the winter system]

8 hours ago, A Joe in the Bush said:

I'm rambling about ideas in Discord right now =P

But what if every player had their own win con and they were ALL unlimited converters

[DrakeMarshall]

3 hours ago, winter devotion said:

But what if every player had their own win con and they were ALL unlimited converters

AND the lynch functioned as a conversion instead of a kill! 

[the winter system]

1 hour ago, Drake Marshall said:

AND the lynch functioned as a conversion instead of a kill! 

But what would the lynch convert you to?

[DrakeMarshall]

Village, I guess? Dunno 

[Straw]

@Aonar Faileas I just noticed your comment about there being only one kill (the lynch). Actually, if you look under the basics section, you'll notice that there's an anonymous lynch each night cycle.