Long Game 24: The Godless City

[little wilson]

1 minute ago, Magestar said:

Wow.  That must have taken some time to compile.  It's also realy handy.  Nice.

I've had it for over a year a now, and fortunately, it's not just me working on it.  There are many others with access to it. I'm willing to give anyone editing privileges to it, so long as i get an email so I can share it (I like to know who's making edits to it and I can't get that if anonymous users can edit). But yes, it's rather useful.

[Straw]

Never seen Silverblade before, sorry about the misinformation. Wilsons spreadsheet isn't that surprising considering she keeps a kill list.

[jaimeleecee]

I was going to add that I also started on an LG  but your data is much more supportive than just what I did haha so thank you for that!

Before I even start let me disclaimer here:  this is going to be one of those posts where I intentionally contradict myself because I am looking at both sides of the argument and how I think either side could be possible.  I have been called out on this before, by people saying my argument doesn't make sense, but this is my thought process, not an argument, I am sharing. For example, my internal debate on trying to support both sides I guess you could call it.  This is how I approach everything in these games and in real life, always trying to understand how something could apply to either side of an argument or what someones motivations might be coming from either side. 

Thoughts on Elenion: I am trying to think WWJD (what would Jaime do  ) if I were in his position right now.  First off I am not really aggressive so that wouldn't be an issue but if I were being accused right now, on D1, I would have a very hard time defending myself... When there hasn't been any other interactions this game so far would I turn to my past play style as evidence to help me, probably, would I expect anyone to buy it, probably not.  It's hard to find ways to defend yourself when nothing has happened so I understand why he has tried the methods he has so far.  As for his suicide plan.. would I do that to, probably (not presented in the same way of course) but would I feel defeated like I don't know how to defend myself and would think "well I guess just lynch me then and when you see you are wrong hopefully it would have still helped in some way."  So what I am trying to say is I can see how all of his attempts at self-preservation could be genuine and not motivated by eliminator alignment.  This does not clear him for me however, because he is not me and even though I could see myself doing these things as a villager I can also see myself doing these things to stay alive as an eliminator, however my motivation for asking to be lynched would be hoping it would convince others that I'm not bad and spare me instead.

 All that being said my main point is that there is no way to conclusively determine anything about Elenion from what has happened so far.  Villager or not he is an aggressive player, who would aggressively defend himself regardless of alignment.  If we decide to go with lynching him I am fine with that since its impossible to be sure either way, but I agree with what others said, if he is not an elim I don't think we will learn much other than that. 

[little wilson]

8 minutes ago, Straw said:

Wilsons spreadsheet isn't that surprising considering she keeps a kill list.

False. I deleted the kill list a year ago. There are plenty of other players who keep a kill list though.

[Straw]

1 minute ago, little wilson said:

False. I deleted the kill list a year ago. There are plenty of other players who keep a kill list though.

It might be a secret kill list. What other players? 

[little wilson]

Just now, Straw said:

It might be a secret kill list. What other players? 

I have no reason to keep a secret kill list. I don't hold grudges. It's not my place to share who keeps a kill list. Plus, some of them don't call it kill lists, even though shortlist of people who you want to kill in a future game is totally a kill list.

Oh, wait, I take back what I said: there is still one person I want to kill, and I should fess up to it since I admitted as such in a group PM last night. Burnt, for LG12, since being the lynchpin in a love triangle with two other players with a high death rate made for an enormously stressful month, and she had to come along and stab me in the back (literally) on the last turn of the game, killing me and my lovers when we were so close to doing the impossible. Killing her once will make me feel a little better about that death. I'm sure she won't mind.

[STINK]

I totally have a kill list, ngl

[Amanuensis]

6 hours ago, The Young Bard said:

...Wow. That is one long doc. LG22 had 12 pages on the first day, but most of that came in the last couple hours before rollover. This is going to be one hectic game.

Emphasis mine.

Doc, mate? You mean thread, yeah? *jots down in my handy, dandy notebook*

Tangent aside, I'm not very happy with the number of votes right now. Aside from the five on Elenion (Mailliw, Kipper, Stink, Emerald and Sart) there's only one on antgrgmn (Ecth) for what pretty much boils down to inactivity. I personally don't think Elenion is an eliminator and believe people are taking things he's said / done too far, but I said the exact same thing about Sart a couple games ago and he was the head-Darkfriend so, my D1 judgment is pretty much useless. I was going to analyze someone else and vote for them, but I've gone through all of the posts three or four times now and very little stands out to me. What little I have seen is either on players who I'm uncomfortable killing because they're new (Magestar), because this is their first game in a long time (Emerald and Renegade), or because they die early on enough as it is (Orlok). I've got some weird reads on Wilson and Alvron but nothing conclusive enough to get a player like them lynched on the first day, some mixed feelings about Lopen, and pretty much utter discontent about Stink. At this point Stink is the only player I would prefer to see die, and that's only because A: I don't trust anyone who claims a Neutral role in a game where everything about the eliminators is a secret and B: I don't trust Neutral roles to work towards my win con consistently. Unfortunately I don't feel comfortable about testing his claim myself because given the nature of his reveal, I can only logically fathom that he wants to be lynched. Except it's storming Stink, so you can't apply logic to anything he does, and just ugh... yeah, I'm pretty frustrated with him right now. I'm lost and confused enough this game to have to worry about nonsense like that.

Now, since no one has really commented on some of my ideas regarding what the vote manipulators this round should do, I'm going to bring it up again because I think it is extremely important for us to get some idea of the role distribution, given how little we know. I'd rather be proactive in gathering that information than reactive, and I'd also rather do it in a way that doesn't force individuals to claim, while simultaneously preventing the eliminators from manipulating the lynch (though at this point it looks like they don't even need to get involved anyway). So, once again...

There are three known roles that interact with votes. The Merchant, who can remove a vote, the Duke, who has a second vote, and the Nobles, who all vote on a player to receive an extra vote. Vote manipulation roles are very powerful for eliminators (LG21 was pretty much won by the bad guys because of vote manipulation alone). Since one can only remove and the other can only add, as opposed to the usual vote mover, I feel it's more likely that the eliminators have at least one, if not both, than neither at all. So, this is what I would like to see happen.

If you do not plan on voting for Elenion this turn, vote for someone random that doesn't have a vote already. I, personally, am going to vote for Elbereth. Now, if everyone who doesn't want to get involved in the lynch votes for another player, the village Merchants have a long list of single votes to randomly choose to remove. While it will be possible for a pair of Merchants to remove the same vote, the variety and randomness of it should help make sure we see a maximum amount of participation.

As for the village Dukes who can add an extra vote, I would say stack them all on Elenion if the gap remains as wide as it is. If another candidate gets presented and gains enough momentum that the lynch gets close, just choose a random player that has 0 or 1 votes. Since your power can stack with others we don't need to worry about not every Duke being accounted for.

As for the Nobles, the reason I want to check if a Noble role exists at all is because in LG22 Gamma ruled that the Vanilla (powerless) roles could do the exact same thing (vote anonymously for a player to get an extra vote). Well, it turned out that there were no Vanillas, which meant the game had been role madness from the start. That would have been very good information to have, as it could have been used to argue that there was only one Viewer (scanner), as one of the two main bad guys would always show up as Vanilla in scans, and thus help us catch an eliminator earlier than we did. So, I propose that all Nobles vote for me. I don't mind accumulating the extra vote so long as it's the only one I receive, and the numbers don't decrease enough that an eliminator Duke can get me killed with a tie.

If we get an as-close-to-accurate count on the number of Merchants and Dukes, as well as assurance that Nobles do exist in this game, we can begin to make some (more) accurate guesses on role distribution, which is a lot better than all of us remaining completely in the dark, in my opinion.

Also, for any Legionnaire's out there, I'll say again that I would appreciate being Arrested tonight. I would also recommend Arresting Wilson if you don't want to Arrest me.

Edited July 29, 2016 by Amanuensis

[STINK]

Oh yeah I've still got my vote on Elenion. Sorry, didn't know about Kip's vote when I placed the vote and it kinda snowballed

Just now, Amanuensis said:

pretty much utter discontent about Stink. At this point Stink is the only player I would prefer to see die, and that's only because A: I don't trust anyone who claims a Neutral role in a game where everything about the eliminators is a secret and B: I don't trust Neutral roles to work towards my win con consistently. Unfortunately I don't feel comfortable about testing his claim myself because given the nature of his reveal, I can only logically fathom that he wants to be lynched. Except it's storming Stink, so you can't apply logic to anything he does, and just ugh... yeah, I'm pretty frustrated with him right now. I'm lost and confused enough this game to have to worry about nonsense like that.

Aman, I do have a logic to stuff I do. For example, instead of spending ages doing the whole role game thing, I'll just reveal myself as neutral, which even if you think is a lie, could be done by either a villager or an eliminator hoping to get ignored by the other side after going through the crucible of suspicions, so basically anyone could have done it, it's kinda like an IKYK. Secondly, working towards your win con could be killing all the villagers, because you might be evil and trying to put me under suspicion because you as an eliminator don't trust that my neutral-ness will actually be neutral, instead of helping the village. <--- After all, we already know that Aman will sometimes look at his elim team at the start of the game and predict a loss. Thirdly, I do not want to be lynched, and if I did want to be lynched then I wouldn't claim a role, because that's a stupid way to get lynched cause all that happens is people like you go 'oh maybe he wants it we shouldn't lynch him' and then my role is out for no reason, while right now my role is out for a reason that isn't to get lynched. Lastly, dunno how knowing a neutral,secret role can make you even more lost about the other secret stuff, the elims are most likely a group of three or something, one a Noble, and maybe one has prot. The third is probs a secret role.

[Magestar]

Why do you recommend stacking votes on Elenion, exactly?  Is it just so the Duke vote is wasted?  Do you think it that likely that Elenion is going to die?

And out of curiosity, why do you want to be Arrested?  The Con's seem to be worse then the pro's, and if you just want to be protected, a bodyguard would probably be better.  

[Amanuensis]

3 minutes ago, STINK said:

Aman, I do have a logic to stuff I do. For example, instead of spending ages doing the whole role game thing, I'll just reveal myself as neutral, which even if you think is a lie, could be done by either a villager or an eliminator hoping to get ignored by the other side after going through the crucible of suspicions, so basically anyone could have done it, it's kinda like an IKYK. Secondly, working towards your win con could be killing all the villagers, because you might be evil and trying to put me under suspicion because you as an eliminator don't trust that my neutral-ness will actually be neutral, instead of helping the village. <--- After all, we already know that Aman will sometimes look at his elim team at the start of the game and predict a loss. Thirdly, I do not want to be lynched, and if I did want to be lynched then I wouldn't claim a role, because that's a stupid way to get lynched cause all that happens is people like you go 'oh maybe he wants it we shouldn't lynch him' and then my role is out for no reason, while right now my role is out for a reason that isn't to get lynched. Lastly, dunno how knowing a neutral,secret role can make you even more lost about the other secret stuff, the elims are most likely a group of three or something, one a Noble, and maybe one has prot. The third is probs a secret role.

I do understand that it could be done as as either a villager or eliminator hoping to get ignored by the other side. But the thing is, it doesn't really make sense for Village!Stink to lie about being a Survivor on D1 because... well... what's the point? Did you think you were going to get attacked tonight or anytime soon? It would make sense for a player with a high probability of being attacked first to claim a role like that so that they would hopefully be left alone by the eliminators. But for a player like you, who I don't think has ever been killed by eliminators earlier than C5, to do it makes me think that you have a different agenda. I could see you claiming it because you want to make the villagers doubt you or the eliminators attack you for having a super serious role when you're actually got some form of protection or even have a Veteran-esque ability. Either way, it makes me uncomfortable, because instead of you doing what's normal for you and just making jokes and pretty much being uninvolved in the game, it puts you right smack dab in the middle of it, and in a way that there's so much guess work involved that it's impossible for me to make heads or tails of it.

As for the working towards my win con comment, I'll go ahead and cite the fact that I've never really seen a Neutral role work against the eliminators except when it's clear they're going to lose. More often than not, they either help them out or remain completely neutral and hold onto the identities of the eliminators they know. I don't trust that if you're telling the truth and approached by an eliminator that you won't work with them. A lot of the reason why my team won LG21 at all was because we got Mark (Survival) and Mailliw (the Troll) to occasionally work with, or at least not oppose, us.

What do you mean by look at my elim team at the start of the game and predict a loss? Do you mean a village loss or elim loss? And I don't really recall ever doing something like that, except maybe MR15, but that's just because I realized how insanely village-balanced it was once I started considering the game tactically from an eliminators perspective.

As for your predictions on the eliminator team... I think making predictions with no other information other than my own role is unwise. And though I've heard some vague claims already, I don't believe claims for a second. I need hard evidence of somethings existence before I start making assumptions about things. Which is why I'm trying to set up plans that generate hard evidence for everyone in the game.

17 minutes ago, Magestar said:

Why do you recommend stacking votes on Elenion, exactly?  Is it just so the Duke vote is wasted?  Do you think it that likely that Elenion is going to die?

And out of curiosity, why do you want to be Arrested?  The Con's seem to be worse then the pro's, and if you just want to be protected, a bodyguard would probably be better.  

I only recommended stacking those votes on Elenion at the time because he had 5 votes whereas the second player had one. I do not want to incite a tie as that just doubles the number of villagers who die when we have absolutely no information to work with. My goal is to see how many provable roles we have in these games so that I can put that information on a table and as we see more players die and get more evidence of a particular roles existence, we can collectively figure out distribution, and hopefully pinpoint how many neutral, neutral-evil and eliminator roles there are. As for why I think it's likely Elenion will die, once again, I don't; I was just basing that post off of where the game is right now. We have under 12 hours until the turn changes and at the time of that post he had 5 of 6 votes that are currently casted on him. My point isn't to ensure Elenion dies, it's that I think whoever is in the lead might as well accumulate the extra votes to prevent eliminator vote manipulators from potentially  getting two villagers killed at once.

The only con is that I can't talk in the thread for the next night turn. If that guarantees me that I'll survive another cycle, that's a fair trade for me. It'll also allow me to establish a one-on-one repertoire with a player. After enough talking I'll probably be able to figure out if they're good or evil, which means I'll either find myself an ally or an enemy to out. I could ask for a Bodyguard but I'll then spend the entire night being paranoid about whether or not I'm going to survive another turn. I'd rather have the guarantee so I don't have to worry about it.

[STINK]

Just now, Amanuensis said:

I do understand that it could be done as as either a villager or eliminator hoping to get ignored by the other side. But the thing is, it doesn't really make sense for Village!Stink to lie about being a Survivor on D1 because... well... what's the point?

You got me there, seeing as I'm not Village!STINK

Just now, Amanuensis said:

Did you think you were going to get attacked tonight or anytime soon?

Not sure really, some people are hard to predict  Maybe I was just still annoyed at how I died relatively early (for me) in my last LG...

1 minute ago, Amanuensis said:

It would make sense for a player with a high probability of being attacked first to claim a role like that so that they would hopefully be left alone by the eliminators. But for a player like you, who I don't think has ever been killed by eliminators earlier than C5, to do it makes me think that you have a different agenda.

Surely I've been killed by eliminators earlier than C5? If not, then how the hell did I do that? O.o Also, my agenda is one of neutrality

2 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

I could see you claiming it because you want to make the villagers doubt you or the eliminators attack you for having a super serious role when you're actually got some form of protection or even have a Veteran-esque ability.

Na, eliminators wouldn't fall for such an obvious Veteran like call for attention.

2 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Either way, it makes me uncomfortable, because instead of you doing what's normal for you and just making jokes and pretty much being uninvolved in the game

Maybe I wanted to be involved in the game? Maybe I saw all the other people cracking some sick jokes and was like 'Let's do something fun about the game instead of during it? Perhaps it was all the talk of STINK actually doing something for once....

3 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

it puts you right smack dab in the middle of it, and in a way that there's so much guess work involved that it's impossible for me to make heads or tails of it.

It's only D1, basically everything is guess work including how the votes will actually be, due to the vote manips, so all you can be really sure of is the player list.

4 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

As for the working towards my win con comment, I'll go ahead and cite the fact that I've never really seen a Neutral role work against the eliminators except when it's clear they're going to lose. More often than not, they either help them out or remain completely neutral and hold onto the identities of the eliminators they know. I don't trust that if you're telling the truth and approached by an eliminator that you won't work with them.

I don't think an eliminator is really going to actually approach me, now that everyone knows I am Neutral, I'm most likely going to get no role claims and less information because the village will worry about me going to the eliminators, and the eliminators will worry about me going to the village, so in the end I've kinda forced myself to be truly neutral. Also everything I do is going to be scrutinized now, so why would I risk working with the eliminators? It's beneficial for both the village and the eliminators to just accept that I'm neutral and not waste a kill/lynch on me, as you won't learn anything from it. (and to the eliminators, all you'll get is a grumpy dead stink)

7 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Which is why I'm trying to set up plans that generate hard evidence for everyone in the game.

I actually agree with your plan for the vote manip thing, it'd be nice to know some roles for everyone. 

[Amanuensis]

4 minutes ago, STINK said:

You got me there, seeing as I'm not Village!STINK

Not sure really, some people are hard to predict  Maybe I was just still annoyed at how I died relatively early (for me) in my last LG...

Surely I've been killed by eliminators earlier than C5? If not, then how the hell did I do that? O.o Also, my agenda is one of neutrality

Na, eliminators wouldn't fall for such an obvious Veteran like call for attention.

Maybe I wanted to be involved in the game? Maybe I saw all the other people cracking some sick jokes and was like 'Let's do something fun about the game instead of during it? Perhaps it was all the talk of STINK actually doing something for once....

It's only D1, basically everything is guess work including how the votes will actually be, due to the vote manips, so all you can be really sure of is the player list.

I don't think an eliminator is really going to actually approach me, now that everyone knows I am Neutral, I'm most likely going to get no role claims and less information because the village will worry about me going to the eliminators, and the eliminators will worry about me going to the village, so in the end I've kinda forced myself to be truly neutral. Also everything I do is going to be scrutinized now, so why would I risk working with the eliminators? It's beneficial for both the village and the eliminators to just accept that I'm neutral and not waste a kill/lynch on me, as you won't learn anything from it. (and to the eliminators, all you'll get is a grumpy dead stink)

I actually agree with your plan for the vote manip thing, it'd be nice to know some roles for everyone. 

For the record, I do believe you're Neutral. I don't necessarily believe that you have no powers, though, or that your win con is just to survive. It's possible but I doubt that both of those things are true. Either way, like I said in our PM, the paranoia is always going to be there for me that you're not being completely honest about something. I'm not a Dula so I can't scan you to see if you're truly not an eliminator. Plus, Dulas can't even tell the difference between Village, Neutral or Neutral-Evil, which means you could very well be the third, which means for you to win the village needs to lose, and as for Neutral you can go either way. Since you keep saying you're not a villager, that means I have no really reason to care if you live or die. Hence why I would prefer it get rid of you, simply because the risk is much higher than the reward of leaving you be. Main reason why I'm not voting for you is because I don't think that a Neutral claim should be the focus of the lynch, especially on day one.

[STINK]

(totally not thinking of helping the elims after being threatened by the lynch)

[jaimeleecee]

I think its good to have an idea about the vote manipulations, sorry for completely leaving that out of my earlier post, there was a lot to catch up on from after I went to bed

I'll throw my vote on Elodin I don't think he has posted yet either so maybe we will hear from him soon. 

[Magestar]

This might help with that.

@Master Elodin, anything to say?

[Mailliw73]

9 hours ago, Elenion said:

There was a bandwagon poke, I even called it as such here. (sorry, don't know how to link to a post directly, just a page)

Two votes is not a bandwagon. 

Len. Bard. That whole last post struck me as very off. 

[little wilson]

18 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Since you keep saying you're not a villager, that means I have no really reason to care if you live or die. Hence why I would prefer it get rid of you, simply because the risk is much higher than the reward of leaving you be. Main reason why I'm not voting for you is because I don't think that a Neutral claim should be the focus of the lynch, especially on day one.

Yeah, that right there is the reason why neutrals help the eliminators. If the village doesn't care about keeping them alive and actively threatens them, why in the world would they ever want to help the village?

[Elenion]

I'd like to stick my vote on STINK, because that counter-bandwagon materialized a bit too quickly and disappeared as such. He's also a claimed neutral role, and so isn't needed for our victory condition and could even inhibit it.

[little wilson]

Two votes on a person does not a bandwagon make. Just because you say that your vote is a bandwagon second vote doesn't mean that a bandwagon has actually formed, and the only votes that were even on him were from you and your brother. That's not a bandwagon. So there was no "counter bandwagon." The only bandwagon that has happened today has been on you. That's it.

[Amanuensis]

23 minutes ago, little wilson said:

Yeah, that right there is the reason why neutrals help the eliminators. If the village doesn't care about keeping them alive and actively threatens them, why in the world would they ever want to help the village?

I don't necessarily agree that it's a cause-and-effect (unless the Neutral in question is really petty). It doesn't have so much to do with being aligned Neutral, but how the player goes about playing it. If Stink never claimed to begin with, the eliminators would continue to think he's a villager and pay him equal mind. Meanwhile the village would have no more reason to look at Stink anymore than any other player. But because he claimed the eliminators know who to contact if they get desperate for some assistance. Plus they have leverage because they can say "if you don't help us we'll kill you ourselves," which gives the Neutral two choices: help them or sacrifice themselves so that the village can win. Most players are going to go for their win before they announce "this player just revealed himself to me as an eliminator" and thus risk being attacked. Now, if a Neutral player were to do that and ask for protection right after, I would respect that immensely. I've just never seen that happen, and I'm not going to just trust a known Neutral to do that if the situation arises.

Besides, I'm pretty sure I didn't once threaten Stink. All I did is state my opinion on Neutrals.

1 hour ago, Amanuensis said:

At this point Stink is the only player I would prefer to see die, and that's only because A: I don't trust anyone who claims a Neutral role in a game where everything about the eliminators is a secret and B: I don't trust Neutral roles to work towards my win con consistently. Unfortunately I don't feel comfortable about testing his claim myself because given the nature of his reveal, I can only logically fathom that he wants to be lynched. Except it's storming Stink, so you can't apply logic to anything he does, and just ugh... yeah, I'm pretty frustrated with him right now. I'm lost and confused enough this game to have to worry about nonsense like that.

Emphasis mine.

Prefer to see die is not the same thing as saying "I'm going to kill you."

1 hour ago, Amanuensis said:

I do understand that it could be done as as either a villager or eliminator hoping to get ignored by the other side. But the thing is, it doesn't really make sense for Village!Stink to lie about being a Survivor on D1 because... well... what's the point? Did you think you were going to get attacked tonight or anytime soon? It would make sense for a player with a high probability of being attacked first to claim a role like that so that they would hopefully be left alone by the eliminators. But for a player like you, who I don't think has ever been killed by eliminators earlier than C5, to do it makes me think that you have a different agenda. I could see you claiming it because you want to make the villagers doubt you or the eliminators attack you for having a super serious role when you're actually got some form of protection or even have a Veteran-esque ability. Either way, it makes me uncomfortable, because instead of you doing what's normal for you and just making jokes and pretty much being uninvolved in the game, it puts you right smack dab in the middle of it, and in a way that there's so much guess work involved that it's impossible for me to make heads or tails of it.

As for the working towards my win con comment, I'll go ahead and cite the fact that I've never really seen a Neutral role work against the eliminators except when it's clear they're going to lose. More often than not, they either help them out or remain completely neutral and hold onto the identities of the eliminators they know. I don't trust that if you're telling the truth and approached by an eliminator that you won't work with them. A lot of the reason why my team won LG21 at all was because we got Mark (Survival) and Mailliw (the Troll) to occasionally work with, or at least not oppose, us.

Emphasis mine.

I don't even see me saying anything in here remotely threatening. Just stating how I feel about Neutrals.

43 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

For the record, I do believe you're Neutral. I don't necessarily believe that you have no powers, though, or that your win con is just to survive. It's possible but I doubt that both of those things are true. Either way, like I said in our PM, the paranoia is always going to be there for me that you're not being completely honest about something. I'm not a Dula so I can't scan you to see if you're truly not an eliminator. Plus, Dulas can't even tell the difference between Village, Neutral or Neutral-Evil, which means you could very well be the third, which means for you to win the village needs to lose, and as for Neutral you can go either way. Since you keep saying you're not a villager, that means I have no really reason to care if you live or die. Hence why I would prefer it get rid of you, simply because the risk is much higher than the reward of leaving you be. Main reason why I'm not voting for you is because I don't think that a Neutral claim should be the focus of the lynch, especially on day one.

Emphasis mine.

If anything that's a non-threat right there. I'm saying I'm not going to try to get him killed for Neutral claiming alone. Besides preventing a future betrayal, pursuing something like that is just generally unproductive. I'm not going to condemn a player for something they could do. I'm just going to make it clear that I don't think that player should be trusted until he gives me a real reason to (like any other player), let alone ignored simply because they're Neutral.

Also, I'm going to get offline now to do course work again. Gotta be somewhat productive today.

Edited July 29, 2016 by Amanuensis
Fixed some broken thoughts and added blue text

[Elenion]

3 minutes ago, little wilson said:

Two votes on a person does not a bandwagon make. Just because you say that your vote is a bandwagon second vote doesn't mean that a bandwagon has actually formed, and the only votes that were even on him were from you and your brother. That's not a bandwagon. So there was no "counter bandwagon." The only bandwagon that has happened today has been on you. That's it.

Kind of a strong response for a simple terminology slip.

[little wilson]

I like my semantics.

[Elenion]

Just now, little wilson said:

I like my semantics.

Do we have a full terminology guide somewhere on the forum, so I can learn the terms without looking uneducated while doing it?

[Magestar]

13 minutes ago, Elenion said:

Do we have a full terminology guide somewhere on the forum, so I can learn the terms without looking uneducated while doing it?

Too late.   

Anyway, it is hard to do that. You can't ask questions without seeming unknowledgeable, and you can't gain knowledge without asking questions.  Rather a predicament, isn't it? 

There are a few terminology guides, but I don't think there are any with what you seem to be looking for.  Then again, I may be wrong.

Edited July 29, 2016 by Magestar