The Official Thread of Relationships

[marsoupial they/them]

2 minutes ago, Delightful said:

I mean how many people actually have romantic relationships as teens vs how many teen characters?

Some teens have intimate relationships, but romance takes time, as I have learned.

[Orlion Blight he/him]

7 minutes ago, bleeder said:

Some teens have intimate relationships, but romance takes time, as I have learned.

That's just merely defining 

@Delightful You want a novel where everything is hunky dory? 

Writing healthy relationships is hard. It comes off as either too saccharine or too personal/intimate. It also isn't a good source of conflict or character development. Part of rooting for a character is that you want them to overcome and succeed. You can't have that if they are all ready perfectly successful.

 

[Delightful]

28 minutes ago, Orlion Determined said:

That's just merely defining 

@Delightful You want a novel where everything is hunky dory? 

Writing healthy relationships is hard. It comes off as either too saccharine or too personal/intimate. It also isn't a good source of conflict or character development. Part of rooting for a character is that you want them to overcome and succeed. You can't have that if they are all ready perfectly successful.

 

Friendships can be emotionally intimate, and literally every kind of relationship has some sort of conflict. Yet media always turns to romance. 

[Quiver he/him]

4 hours ago, Delightful said:

Friendships can be emotionally intimate, and literally every kind of relationship has some sort of conflict. Yet media always turns to romance. 

I wonder if this is a hold over from fairy tales; that idea that everyone has a One True Love, without whom love is empty...

[marsoupial they/them]

40 minutes ago, Cognizantastic said:

Agreed. Once again, @Darkness Ascendant, I think that you need to consider the situation before you say these things. It should be obvious from the amount of downvotes that your posts are garnering that the jokes are neither understood or appreciated, not even considering others' comments and the thread that we're in. 

Actually, that's true, and I took part, so I apologize, to all of you, for derailment.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Quiver said:

Hmm. Sort of a relationship question, but not really? Maybe more of a literary question, so... sorry if this is derailing the thread some:

Do you guys feel romantic relationships are necessary for books to sell these days?

I ask since... well, it's a topic I think about a lot. As a sad, single guy As a consumer of fiction, I kind of notice a trend where every book I read seem's to have some sort of a romantic plot... to the point where, when a character of the opposite sex is introduced to the main character, I immediatly start looking for any authorial cues that they will end up together, or forming a love triangle, or whatever.

(I'm saying "opposite genders" because I haven't really read any books with Queer leads or romances. I assume the same issue is present in those, where a guy meets a guy just to facilitate the romance plot, or a one of the girl's in the books gets pushed as being JUST PERFECT for the female lead... but that's speculation on my part)

SO... I'm wondering: is it just me? Am I just more aware of how much love in in books since I'm not in a relationship? Or is it genuinely a thing where every book these days must have a romance sub-plot, regardless of how it fits with the story or the characters involved.

I didn't follow any of the drama within this thread, but I stumbled on this post. Since I thought it was interesting, I wanted to respond.

Are romantic relationships required within works of fiction? No.

Are romantic relationships expected within works of fiction? Yes.

Has male/female friendship been pushed into a dark corner, never allowed enough light to blossom? Yes.

Why?

Because our society valor success within romantic relationships before anything else. You may be successful within each and every spheres of your life, but if you mess up in the romance department, then you may think you have failed at everything. Of course, I am over-stating it and these aren't my personal thoughts, I am merely stating what I believe to be the prevalent thought. Hence, since success within romantic life is considered mightily important, it is hardly surprising most works of fiction involve romance in a form or another. 

Fiction also is about escapism: it works better if the viewers/readers can visualize themselves as the main protagonist, if they can insert themselves into the story. Hence, romance has become a favored theme, but it isn't the only one. Under-dogs and outcasts are just as prevalent because most people feel they are either under-dogs or outcast. As for romance, finding your One True Love in the most unexpected place, to discover love while being locked in with the person of interest, to suddenly have this person you shout at become a love interest are prevalent tropes because it they offer quick resolution. In other words, those tropes offer sudden powerful love without having the protagonists actually have to work for it. It just falls onto them magically, with no effort. Very few stories can waste pages to have the protagonists date, get to know each other unless they are... romance stories. 

Hence, romance often feels predictable, repetitive and downright unimaginative. Male lead stumbled upon female lead, so OF COURSE they become an item. If anyone tried at writing friendship in between the leads, then you can be sure the entire readership/viewership are going to ship them. Hard. Unless it is obvious they are never going to be an item, such as already being within other functional relationships, but this rarely happens. Rand and Egwene may sprout to mind, but I would hardly call them friends in the later books.

So yeah, I'd say most people not only expect, but want romance within their favored work. This being said, I also think authors/scripters aren't trying to be imaginative and refreshing enough. They are thousand of ways to start and maintain a relationship, why always focus on the same one? It may be it takes a true mastermind to pull of a satisfying and convincing romance out of a fantasy story or a blockbuster movie, one which does not feel generic.

[Mistrunner]

This sounds somewhat frivolous written down, but it's a bit of a predicament.

There's this girl who I sit with at lunch. She's nice and all, but we have pretty much nothing in common, and the only reason I sit there is because when I'd just barely moved here she told me I should sit with her. It's extraordinarily awkward. I'm the fifth wheel- she has a bunch of her friends and now her boyfriend at the table and I feel horribly out of place.

A lot of people eat in the hallway by the band room at lunch. I've done that a couple times when Lunch Girl didn't show up. In the one time I sat there last week, Reginald the spoon was born and someone gave me a purple animal cracker that I decided was a wildebeest named Phil (or Phildebeest, if you will). I also got someone to read Way of Kings (!!!). You can imagine where I prefer to eat.

The problem is that I don't know how to communicate to Lunch Girl that I'd rather not sit at her table anymore. It's not that I don't like her- she's very nice- it's that I think we'd both be happier without me third wheeling everywhere. But if I say I'd rather be at the band room, she'd ask why I don't want to sit with her and she'd try to make me stay out of politeness, and it's a mess. I don't want to make her feel like I'm shutting her out, but I'd really rather I didn't have to sit with her friends.

tl;dr I am a mess and don't know how to communicate. Help.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

3 minutes ago, Mistrunner said:

This sounds somewhat frivolous written down, but it's a bit of a predicament.

There's this girl who I sit with at lunch. She's nice and all, but we have pretty much nothing in common, and the only reason I sit there is because when I'd just barely moved here she told me I should sit with her. It's extraordinarily awkward. I'm the fifth wheel- she has a bunch of her friends and now her boyfriend at the table and I feel horribly out of place.

A lot of people eat in the hallway by the band room at lunch. I've done that a couple times when Lunch Girl didn't show up. In the one time I sat there last week, Reginald the spoon was born and someone gave me a purple animal cracker that I decided was a wildebeest named Phil (or Phildebeest, if you will). I also got someone to read Way of Kings (!!!). You can imagine where I prefer to eat.

The problem is that I don't know how to communicate to Lunch Girl that I'd rather not sit at her table anymore. It's not that I don't like her- she's very nice- it's that I think we'd both be happier without me third wheeling everywhere. But if I say I'd rather be at the band room, she'd ask why I don't want to sit with her and she'd try to make me stay out of politeness, and it's a mess. I don't want to make her feel like I'm shutting her out, but I'd really rather I didn't have to sit with her friends.

tl;dr I am a mess and don't know how to communicate. Help.

You could always just start sitting in the hallway. Don't make a big deal out of it, don't even announce it, just do it. If Lunch Girl asks why you're not sitting with her anymore, you can just say, "Oh, I got caught up with these guys, and I have to stay and find out what happens to Phildebeest when he and Reginald the Spoon go on their quest to the Pea Soup of Destiny. You can join us, if you want." 

She probably wanted you to sit with her to make sure you didn't have to eat alone—super sweet of her, and something I wish someone had done for me when I started at a new school—but that in no way obligates you to sit with her. And if you stop sitting with her to sit with the Hallway Gang, her goal is realized. You have someone to sit with at lunch, and you won't be alone. 

[Orlion Blight he/him]

I was about to give almost the exact same advice. Just do it, you don't need her permission. 

Another possibility if she asks where you have been is, after responding in a manner like Twi illustrated, you can invite her to lunch with you in the hall. When she declines, you say "no problem, see ya!" and continue on your merry way.

[Mistrunner]

7 minutes ago, TwiLyghtSansSparkles said:

You could always just start sitting in the hallway. Don't make a big deal out of it, don't even announce it, just do it. If Lunch Girl asks why you're not sitting with her anymore, you can just say, "Oh, I got caught up with these guys, and I have to stay and find out what happens to Phildebeest when he and Reginald the Spoon go on their quest to the Pea Soup of Destiny. You can join us, if you want." 

She probably wanted you to sit with her to make sure you didn't have to eat alone—super sweet of her, and something I wish someone had done for me when I started at a new school—but that in no way obligates you to sit with her. And if you stop sitting with her to sit with the Hallway Gang, her goal is realized. You have someone to sit with at lunch, and you won't be alone. 

 

4 minutes ago, Orlion Determined said:

I was about to give almost the exact same advice. Just do it, you don't need her permission. 

Another possibility if she asks where you have been is, after responding in a manner like Twi illustrated, you can invite her to lunch with you in the hall. When she declines, you say "no problem, see ya!" and continue on your merry way.

Thanks, guys. I think I will.

People on the Shard give the best advice. You're all awesome.

[Kaymyth she/her]

1 hour ago, Mistrunner said:

 

Thanks, guys. I think I will.

People on the Shard give the best advice. You're all awesome.

Chiming in with DOOO EEEET.

And telling her tales of Reginald the Spoon may make her not want to sit with you, so win/win!

[Darkness Ascendant he/him]

Derailing indeed. I'll stop....till the next highstorm hits (I'll keep it to Random stuff tho)

[marsoupial they/them]

7 hours ago, Mistrunner said:

This sounds somewhat frivolous written down, but it's a bit of a predicament.

There's this girl who I sit with at lunch. She's nice and all, but we have pretty much nothing in common, and the only reason I sit there is because when I'd just barely moved here she told me I should sit with her. It's extraordinarily awkward. I'm the fifth wheel- she has a bunch of her friends and now her boyfriend at the table and I feel horribly out of place.

A lot of people eat in the hallway by the band room at lunch. I've done that a couple times when Lunch Girl didn't show up. In the one time I sat there last week, Reginald the spoon was born and someone gave me a purple animal cracker that I decided was a wildebeest named Phil (or Phildebeest, if you will). I also got someone to read Way of Kings (!!!). You can imagine where I prefer to eat.

The problem is that I don't know how to communicate to Lunch Girl that I'd rather not sit at her table anymore. It's not that I don't like her- she's very nice- it's that I think we'd both be happier without me third wheeling everywhere. But if I say I'd rather be at the band room, she'd ask why I don't want to sit with her and she'd try to make me stay out of politeness, and it's a mess. I don't want to make her feel like I'm shutting her out, but I'd really rather I didn't have to sit with her friends.

tl;dr I am a mess and don't know how to communicate. Help.

Yeah, just move of your own accord. There's nothing she can do to stop you, and if she says something along the lines of "I insist", say something like "That's very kind of you, but I wouldn't want to make things uncomfortable" then check your watch and say something in the vein of "oh no I have to go talk to you later byeeeeeee" and walk off.

[Quiver he/him]

11 hours ago, maxal said:

I didn't follow any of the drama within this thread, but I stumbled on this post. Since I thought it was interesting, I wanted to respond.

Are romantic relationships required within works of fiction? No.

Are romantic relationships expected within works of fiction? Yes.

Has male/female friendship been pushed into a dark corner, never allowed enough light to blossom? Yes.

Why?

Because our society valor success within romantic relationships before anything else. You may be successful within each and every spheres of your life, but if you mess up in the romance department, then you may think you have failed at everything. Of course, I am over-stating it and these aren't my personal thoughts, I am merely stating what I believe to be the prevalent thought. Hence, since success within romantic life is considered mightily important, it is hardly surprising most works of fiction involve romance in a form or another. 

Fiction also is about escapism: it works better if the viewers/readers can visualize themselves as the main protagonist, if they can insert themselves into the story. Hence, romance has become a favored theme, but it isn't the only one. Under-dogs and outcasts are just as prevalent because most people feel they are either under-dogs or outcast. As for romance, finding your One True Love in the most unexpected place, to discover love while being locked in with the person of interest, to suddenly have this person you shout at become a love interest are prevalent tropes because it they offer quick resolution. In other words, those tropes offer sudden powerful love without having the protagonists actually have to work for it. It just falls onto them magically, with no effort. Very few stories can waste pages to have the protagonists date, get to know each other unless they are... romance stories. 

Hence, romance often feels predictable, repetitive and downright unimaginative. Male lead stumbled upon female lead, so OF COURSE they become an item. If anyone tried at writing friendship in between the leads, then you can be sure the entire readership/viewership are going to ship them. Hard. Unless it is obvious they are never going to be an item, such as already being within other functional relationships, but this rarely happens. Rand and Egwene may sprout to mind, but I would hardly call them friends in the later books.

So yeah, I'd say most people not only expect, but want romance within their favored work. This being said, I also think authors/scripters aren't trying to be imaginative and refreshing enough. They are thousand of ways to start and maintain a relationship, why always focus on the same one? It may be it takes a true mastermind to pull of a satisfying and convincing romance out of a fantasy story or a blockbuster movie, one which does not feel generic.

Have nothing to add beyond "This isan interesting reply, please accept upvotes as payment."

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Quiver said:

Have nothing to add beyond "This isan interesting reply, please accept upvotes as payment."

It is a mightily interesting topic of discussion: how our views of relationships is tainted by what the entertainment industry thinks it should be about. How writers and scriptwriters often seem to fall for the easy romance and how many seem to think it a requirement in any work of fiction, even those where it doesn't belong.

Arguably, this isn't the right topic to discuss such things in any level of depth. 

[Quiver he/him]

6 minutes ago, maxal said:

It is a mightily interesting topic of discussion: how our views of relationships is tainted by what the entertainment industry thinks it should be about. How writers and scriptwriters often seem to fall for the easy romance and how many seem to think it a requirement in any work of fiction, even those where it doesn't belong.

Arguably, this isn't the right topic to discuss such things in any level of depth. 

Maybe? If you ever want to talk about it, I'd be interested in taking the conversation to PM's!

[Oversleep]

My best friend is leaving for a semester of Erasmus on Monday. Today we all went out to get together one last time.

I miss him already - he's more of a brother to me than a friend. The first time we 'met' was when my and his parents (who are friends) took us in our baby carriagies (around 20 years ago, I guess) to a party and we know each other ever since. We're close friends since six years ago.

It's gonna be quite a different semester at uni without dropping by between classes and meeting up and talking and playing games together and everything.

I'm not even sure why am I posting this here. It's not like I need advice on anything; I just needed to vent it somewhere.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Oversleep

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Quiver said:

Maybe? If you ever want to talk about it, I'd be interested in taking the conversation to PM's!

Sure PM me 

[Oversleep]

@Cognizantastic, that's awful. I can't offer any advice on fighting devilish rumor-machines, but I want to assure you that your fury is righteous and you have every reason to be angry.

Good luck with the whole thing.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

@Cognizantastic: That's awful.  I hate this girl (hereafter referred to as Rumor Weed) already. 

Having been the victim of rumors myself, one thing that works is to pretend not to care. At all. Have your friend walk past Rumor Weed with head held high. Treat her coldly, not deferentially. Make no effort to "patch things up" with Rumor Weed, because there's nothing that your friend needs to apologize for. In all matters, have your friend show Rumor Weed that she isn't afraid of her. With any luck, Rumor Weed will come to fear your friend. 

[Darkness Ascendant he/him]

Woah, that's intense @Cognizantastic

Rumour Weed indeed, I reckon the best way to deal with her would be to start compiling evidence against her, as in texts and all. This is backup in case you need to go to a teacher or something to "expose" her.

But before that, publicly humiliate Rumour Weed, give her a lecture, expose her inner fears and generally make her feel like dirt. I know, this may sound like the bad thing to do, but as long as you stick to the truth and show her what a horrible person she is, then there's a chance that she may see the error of her ways. Also, make sure all her "cronies" are there as well.

If plan a doesn't work then thats where plan b kicks in, gather your evidence and go to an authoritative figure, if USA has the same anti-bullying laws as Australia, then doing this will mean that the Police will be involved, and things will become a tad bit complicated.

However you and your friend could always ignore her.

This reminds me of my school and the school across the road. I go to East Hills Boys High School, and across the road is East Hills Girls Technology High School

We used to be a tech school, the apple stopped sponsoring us :/

Anyway, at our school, most of the people there are your typical Wogs (Lebanese people), they are loud, raucos and obnoxious at times. But they are still good people and are quite funny  We all swear openly, call each other names and be what an outsider would think horrible, but at heart we all are kinda like a family, some people are horrible, some are plain stupid, but we still look out for each other and we're (mostly) good friends. We even share food and comfortably talk about....things

But I know a few of the girls across the road, and well....the situation there is really weird.

There seems to be a hierarchy and well things can get seriously bad there, there are constantly "friendship" problems as well as crem like "why were you speaking to my ex?". They also talk about the weirdest things, and half of the time, even the wogs at our school seem to have more tact and be more refined and friendly than the girls at that school. For example after school, I bought an LA Ice (a drink), and one of the female friends asked if she could have some. SHE LIPPED IT. Normally a person should have the decency to "airy" it, but naaa, she lipped it. At least we have standards XD, so yeah, after her lipping it, I said she could keep it, then went off and bought another one.

No need to start a conversation on this, just an idle thought.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

 Compiling evidence against Rumor Weed, like Darkness said, is good advice. Publicly humiliating her is not. She got Cog sent to the office because she spun a confrontation over her own bullying the right way; a public humiliation session would be like Christmas morning for this girl. She wouldn't take the words to heart so much as take them to the office and use them to paint herself as the innocent victim. 

So, yes to the evidence saving, no to th public humiliation. 

[marsoupial they/them]

@Cognizantastic Dude, that is terrible!

One thing I recommend (though my advice is entirely unqualified) is not to go all crazy at first, and talk to her all civil-like and try to work it out, and then if she refuses to accept your gracious parley, then confront her publicly. 

Best of luck in burning that Rumour Weed. We're here to help.

Edited September 8, 2016 by bleeder

[Kaymyth she/her]

7 hours ago, Darkness Ascendant said:

But before that, publicly humiliate Rumour Weed, give her a lecture, expose her inner fears and generally make her feel like dirt. I know, this may sound like the bad thing to do, but as long as you stick to the truth and show her what a horrible person she is, then there's a chance that she may see the error of her ways.

No.  There isn't.  You severely underestimate the ability of non-self-aware people to engage in denial of their flaws.  Awful people aren't awful because they're mustache-twirling villains; they're awful because they're so self-centered that they are literally incapable of comprehending that other people have different thoughts and feelings than they do.  She believes the things she says about Cognizantastic's friend, probably because were the situation reversed it's what she would be doing.  Calling her out on her behavior will only reinforce her delusion that she is the innocent party.

5 hours ago, TwiLyghtSansSparkles said:

 Compiling evidence against Rumor Weed, like Darkness said, is good advice. Publicly humiliating her is not. She got Cog sent to the office because she spun a confrontation over her own bullying the right way; a public humiliation session would be like Christmas morning for this girl. She wouldn't take the words to heart so much as take them to the office and use them to paint herself as the innocent victim. 

So, yes to the evidence saving, no to th public humiliation. 

This.  Document everything.  Every interaction.  Keep a notebook full of every horrible thing she says and does, with each entry dated.  Write down the names of witnesses to each altercation.  Keep this as backup, and present it to teachers and/or administrators at an appropriate time.

 

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

8 minutes ago, Kaymyth said:

No.  There isn't.  You severely underestimate the ability of non-self-aware people to engage in denial of their flaws.  Awful people aren't awful because they're mustache-twirling villains; they're awful because they're so self-centered that they are literally incapable of comprehending that other people have different thoughts and feelings than they do.  She believes the things she says about Cognizantastic's friend, probably because were the situation reversed it's what she would be doing.  Calling her out on her behavior will only reinforce her delusion that she is the innocent party.

This.  Document everything.  Every interaction.  Keep a notebook full of every horrible thing she says and does, with each entry dated.  Write down the names of witnesses to each altercation.  Keep this as backup, and present it to teachers and/or administrators at an appropriate time.

 

Worse still, humiliation, or even just confrontation, will probably make her feel victimized. And there is nothing more dangerous than a self-centered person who thinks they have a legitimate grievance against you.