Mid-Range Game 10: Divided Loyalties

[Elbereth she/her]

This is probably the last post I'll be able to make this cycle, except maybe a quick one right before turnover if necessary.

Continuing my suspicions of Paranoid King:

Later, you claim to have forgotten that day and night cycles were combined. That was a crucial part of the game and I don't believe that anybody could forget that everything happened at once. It seems like a cover-up and an excuse for something you did.

I'll verify that I almost did the same thing. Since almost every other game on SE (and apparently every game PK's played) is day/night, particularly in MR's and LG's, it is very easy to forget.

 

You later recognized that peoples motives were going to affect the likelihood of a WGG but then proceeded to base your presented statistics on pure random probability. After that, you said that you thought Adavantos wanted hard numbers when there wasn't a single mention of concrete numbers. Another cover-up? I think that you might have been trying to give us the wrong stats so that we would feel near certain about Venture's near death experience. Posting that there was an 80% chance that it was a WGG put in our minds that it was almost certain when there was no real motive in doing so and the circumstances of the attempted homicide made it very likely that the healer would have tried to save Venture.

I will note that Adavantos asked for PK's reasoning behind his number, which is a good enough reason for those numbers to me. Also, does that mean you think there is little or no chance there was a WGG? Because I still think it's very possible.

 

In a later post, you claimed that we could protect the schoolars every night if one of the surgeons protected them every night. That is incorrect as a double kill, a lynch or an action movement occurred. That could have been an attempt to make us believe the wrong facts and expose our scholars, or it could have been an honest mistake, I'm not sure which.

Okay, I'm just confused as to your meaning here. I'm taking it to mean that a single Surgeon can't protect against a double-tap and can be redirected, which is fair enough, but I'm not sure, so can you clarify?

By the way, I'm not defending PK so much as saying "This is a bad argument. Try harder." PK still seems suspicious to me. I just had quibbles with your post.

 

I was actually just thinking to myself as I read through that I didn't think there would be 4 cooks.

Even with an original 36 people, 6 potential kills per cycle seems a little outlandish. So STINK, you might want to talk to that person a bit more and ask what their real role is.

  

Why 6? The Diagrammist kill, and 4 cooks. That makes 5. Was that what you meant?

Also, I agree with whoever said that if there are plenty of protector roles as well, it could very well be balanced.

*Geniuses

Hey, if you want to be technical, it's genii.

That being said, [PK] and Hellscythe are both on the top of my [/font]maybe evil list, and I would not be opposed to a Cook or two going after Hellscythe "again" tonight, as that means we could get both of their alignments revealed simultaneously and have a lot more info to work with.

  

Well, we can only get their alignments revealed simultaneously if we find a second Scholar. Which no one has done, yet. A few people have said "PM me!", but if I were a Scholar I would be reluctant to do even that for fear of drawing a target on my back.

Also, concerning Cooks. This was advice I was given last game, and I found it useful, so I'm suggesting it now. If you have no one who you feel is suspicious enough to go after (although apparently only one of you thinks so given last cycle's results), attack an inactive. Preferably, attack whoever has been the most inactive the entire game. It's not likely they'll come in and help out (and if you're one of said inactives and it's just that you're really busy right now and will get better, please post to say so!), and they're just dead weight for whichever side they're on. If we don't kill them off, and the Diagrammists just continue killing all the talkative players, eventually no one but inactives and Diagrammists will be left, and that's no fun.

Sorry about that, Alv. I actually didn't even work on one this cycle because I've been trying to figure out a way to make them work without the links breaking. What I'm thinking about doing is not starting to work on the summaries until the cycle after, that way people can continue to navigate the game with ease after these threads are merged with the original and while I'm looking back at every post knowing what I do from the cycle's result, I might be able to find more information.

I'll voice the opinion that it would be better to have the summaries during the cycle than afterward with working post links. It is not much less inconvenient to go back a few pages, particularly if you have summaries fairly regularly.

I put those parts in bold. 

 

So, Elbereth, what changed your mind so dramatically? You never give a reason for why you think either way. First you say it's because it's too powerful for the eliminators(not necessarily true), and then that last post happens.

 

The reason I changed my mind was mainly because we found out that there were probably four Cooks rather than two (assuming Stink's contact was in fact telling the truth), which in my mind made it far more likely that there could be an eliminator Cook. Before that I had been assuming there were two (after all, that was the number in LG15, in which I was the cook equivalent), and didn't think it was likely that there would be four. Now that there's four, I think it's much more possible that there is a Diagrammist cook. Does that answer your question adequately?

[Clanky he/him]

I would "procure a solid defense" if someone would give me a valid reason as to why they think I should be lynched.

All I've gotten is

 

"Uhh well your role isn't useful enough"

"Uhh well on a scale of a 100 you're like a 78. No reason. Just a 78 cause I said so"

"Uhh well the evil team is more likely to have an Explorer because I say so"

"Uhh well you can't defend yourself against these indefensible accusations"

"Uhh well you're probably NOT the most likely candidate for a Cook even though you say you are therefore you must be bad"

Also that was the most obvious Diagrammist bandwagon Tony Shark.

If you're willing to look for something for me to defend myself against I'm all for it. But I have tried. It's not easy to find.

 

If you are looking for something that you can do to defend yourself you could start by answering about why you deleted portions in the middle of Wilsons post about role distribution in order for it to fit your argument. I can understand why you would have a hard time finding this in order to put up a defense. After all I only posted about it twice. 

[Hellscythe he/him]

Sorry you probably didn't get my reply to that in the midst of all the sarcasm.

 

"Wilson didn't stick with the first roll because there weren't enough Explorers on the Diagrammist team."

There is absolutely no reason for Wilson to role distribute differently because there weren't enough Explorers on the Diagrammist team.

If I do end up dying I left my Captain with all of my suspicions, role, alignment, and position. Do what you will with it.

If I was an Elsecaller it'd be different because they have an ability that's really only useful to the Diagrammists, but I already essentially proved I'm not an Elsecaller by explaining why Wilson postponed the rule change.

 

Edit: I'll be honest Clanky I didn't see your second post asking me why I changed Wilson's wording. The reason behind it was to get to (like she said) The point. That part of the quote had nothing to do with what I was trying to get across. Unless you really do believe she rerolled because there wasn't an Explorer on the evil team then I have no hope.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Hellscythe

[TheMightyLopen he/him]

3. Role claimed only after you were supposedly attacked then made a personal statement against Advantos saying he votes for people who's roles aren't "useful enough." I'm not sure I want to agree with that but, the only viable reason I see your role being useful to the village is when only your role is unknown, and you can protect yourself while advocating for someone else. Now that your role is supposedly know, instead of using you we could use protection roles elsewhere (scholars) and get actual information.

 

Yeah, okay, I suppose the Explorer role is mainly useful when no one knows about them.

 

@Elbereth, Yeah, that explanation works fine. To answer your question to Shallan(Ookla the Lightweaver), you're missing the lynch. That makes 6 kills a Cycle.

[Elbereth she/her]

Yeah, okay, I suppose the Explorer role is mainly useful when no one knows about them.

 

@Elbereth, Yeah, that explanation works fine. To answer your question to Shallan(Ookla the Lightweaver), you're missing the lynch. That makes 6 kills a Cycle.

Oh, right. Duh. Thanks for clarifying.

[Clanky he/him]

Sorry you probably didn't get my reply to that in the midst of all the sarcasm.

 

"Wilson didn't stick with the first roll because there weren't enough Explorers on the Diagrammist team."

There is absolutely no reason for Wilson to role distribute differently because there weren't enough Explorers on the Diagrammist team.

 

If I was an Elsecaller it'd be different because they have an ability that's really only useful to the Diagrammists, but I already essentially proved I'm not an Elsecaller by explaining why Wilson postponed the rule change.

 

OK I understand that but there was also absolutely no reason for you to edit the quote of Wilson to remove"Did I always take the first roll? No. There were some things that I rolled multiple times on, because of whatever reason."  I am asking what caused you to remove that portion of the quote? Sure I will remove parts of a quote that don't matter to what I am responding to but that is just to remove paragraphs that add unnecessary length to posts. You however removed a sentence in the middle of a post that alters the meaning. You changed it from "I did change things if I didn't like them" to "Everything was completely random 100%"

 

I am not commenting on your role or what role is most likely to be on the Diagammist team. I am only questioning why you decided to edit a clarification from the GM in a way that alters the meaning.

[Mailliw73 he/him]

I would "procure a solid defense" if someone would give me a valid reason as to why they think I should be lynched.

All I've gotten is

 

"Uhh well your role isn't useful enough"

"Uhh well on a scale of a 100 you're like a 78. No reason. Just a 78 cause I said so"

"Uhh well the evil team is more likely to have an Explorer because I say so"

"Uhh well you can't defend yourself against these indefensible accusations"

"Uhh well you're probably NOT the most likely candidate for a Cook even though you say you are therefore you must be bad"

Also that was the most obvious Diagrammist bandwagon Tony Shark.

If you're willing to look for something for me to defend myself against I'm all for it. But I have tried. It's not easy to find.

I'm voting for you based on your attitude, in part. The main reason I am though is because of the things you say just don't add up. Sorry there's not much to it, that's just how it is. And I'll admit, I'd rather go after Ghostbloods who I think are Diagrammists first before I attack my own faction. I'm not sure how you can defend that, and I'm sorry, but sometimes there are just gut feeling lynches. It happens. Sometimes they're right and sometimes they aren't. But, while I still don't like your attitude, I'd rather kill Venture, who hasn't posted again since his roleclaim, than you, since you're actually talking. Hellscythe. Venture.

[Seonid he/him]

Note: I started this post at work, just to respond to a particularly bad claim by Adavantos. I'll get into my actual suspicions later. I may actually even vote this cycle.

Adavantos, the explorer role is quite useful to the Village. Even in early stages, a failed eliminator kill is a good thing. Towards the end of a close game, it can be the deciding factor.

At the very least, it gives us a place that we know protection doesn't really need to go.

[Hellscythe he/him]

I'll just move it down here

I'll be honest Clanky I didn't see your second post asking me why I changed Wilson's wording. The reason behind it was to get to (like she said) The Point. That part of the quote had nothing to do with what I was trying to get across. Unless you really do believe she rerolled because there wasn't an Explorer on the evil team then I have no hope. I had nothing to do with the "rerolls" and didn't want people(phattemer) saying well.... Exactly what he said. A whole lot of flawed logic. I still don't understand it.

I just wanna explore. *clicks heels* I just wanna explore. *clicks heels* I just wanna explore. *clicks heels* 

Wilson said that she rerolled the RNG sometimes if it was needed. Obviously an Elsecaller or Explorer would not be unbalanced on the Diagrammist side, and as such, it is more likely to be there then, say, a Cook, which might skew the game in the Diagrammists' favor.

It isn't as likely as a usual game, where roles are picked and players randomly generated (I don't mean to say that in this one players were picked. I mean that in this one both were randomized.), but still many reasonable setups include an Explorer or Elsecaller on their side.

 

 

So yes Clanky, it was to make people avoid that part her message. Not necessarily to benefit me, and hope you would all forget that Wilson said something else that could potentially damnation me with evidence, but to stop the illogical thoughts from running around. If you think that's suspicious that's fine and a valid reason to vote. I just want a real reason. You have been the best at giving a reason for voting. Thank you for that.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Hellscythe

[Tony Shark he/him]

I would "procure a solid defense" if someone would give me a valid reason as to why they think I should be lynched.

All I've gotten is

 

"Uhh well your role isn't useful enough"

"Uhh well on a scale of a 100 you're like a 78. No reason. Just a 78 cause I said so"

"Uhh well the evil team is more likely to have an Explorer because I say so"

"Uhh well you can't defend yourself against these indefensible accusations"

"Uhh well you're probably NOT the most likely candidate for a Cook even though you say you are therefore you must be bad"

Also that was the most obvious Diagrammist bandwagon Tony Shark.

If you're willing to look for something for me to defend myself against I'm all for it. But I have tried. It's not easy to find.

If you're going to accuse me of something why don't you just put a vote to me in the thread?

 

I intentionally made that post directly aggressive to you not as an attack, but to see how other people would react. Then I could see if I could find where all of your votes were coming from. My intention was to try to relieve some pressure to you by giving you arguments you could easily create a defense for and answer others questions that may or may not come forward. Since instead you avoided my arguments and secretly accused me my vote remains.

[Feligon he/him]

So, at this point it looks like hellscythe is being lynched  (do we have a current tally? I've been wrong before)

 

The whole thing is just one person's logic against another, since no one has any damning evidence (at least from my view), but this is the stage where we decide who can be trusted and who can't.  If you're putting a lot of effort into getting someone lynched and they are actually telling the truth, that is really going to hurt you later.  Just be careful; we're entering... MIDGAME (*spooky music*)

 

Anyway, I personally think that PK is more suspicious, but I don't want to mess up the lynch, so I'll vote for Hellscythe.  I'm going to try to get on in a few hours, but I might sleep through my alarm...

[Bort he/him]

I'm not going to add my vote to the list as I think he probably already has enough votes, but I do have to say I've been most unimpressed with Hellscythe's responses. Rather than defend himself, he has ranted, tried to point the finger at others, and came up with what sounds like fictional scenarios to shift suspicion onto others.

 

What did you do in cycle one to attract the attention of a cook, Hellscythe? You insulted his meringue, didn't you?

 

Edit: By the way, after today, I am off work until after the new year. Unfortunately, my internet at home is still not working, so until it is, I'll be limited to short and fast posts from my mobile. So, I only have three more hours at a proper keyboard, so if anyone wishes to ask me anything, please do so now

Edited December 17, 2015 by Bort

[Lightsworn Panda he/him]

Sorry, I was unable to post yesterday due to an unexpected lack of time.

 

10 pages again? I've already given up on trying to take notes for this game. Time to ride through another catch-up. 

[Bort he/him]

Ok, removing my vote from Starry (I'll go back and edit the colour in my previous post in just a minute - by the time you read this, it will probably be done).

 

Instead, I'm placing a vote on Orlok. I've seen him visit the thread a few times, but he doesn't seem to be posting. Also, the same applies to Twelfthrootoftwo, but honestly, I'm not sure if he is playing or not. Wilson, in your player list, you have someone listed as 'Twei'. Is this Twelfthrootoftwo?

 

Edit: Removed vote from Orlok.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Bort

[Kasimir he/him]

Ok, removing my vote from Starry (I'll go back and edit the colour in my previous post in just a minute - by the time you read this, it will probably be done).

 

Instead, I'm placing a vote on Orlok. I've seen him visit the thread a few times, but he doesn't seem to be posting. Also, the same applies to Twelfthrootoftwo, but honestly, I'm not sure if he is playing or not. Wilson, in your player list, you have someone listed as 'Twei'. Is this Twelfthrootoftwo?

I can answer that; Twei is indeed Twelfthrootoftwo. Apologies for the shortforms: if anything in doubt, just ask! Also, just a PSA--Twei is female.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Kasimir

[Bort he/him]

I thought so, but it's good to get clarification. Thanks Kas

 

Edit: 999 posts. I feel I should have something profound to say for my next one. Maybe something about salami, or fish.

 

Edit 2: Removed vote from Orlok, and placing it on Twelfthrootoftwo instead. I've seen him in the thread more often than Orlok, and haven't seen much in the way of contribution.

 

Edit 3: Edited to remove vote from Twei.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Bort

[twelfthrootoftwo]

Edit 2: Removed vote from Orlok, and placing it on Twelfthrootoftwo instead. I've seen him in the thread more often than Orlok, and haven't seen much in the way of contribution.

Usually because I'm trying to wrap my head around multiple pages of posts, and often end up leaving before I get through them all to post something of my own

 

Anyway. With PK revealing as a scholar, I think we're better off leaving him alive. Now he has to give us scan results every cycle, which other scholars can check in private. Either he's caught in a lie or he can share information from his (or a hypothetical Diagrammist teammate's) scan.

[Bort he/him]

Thanks Twei.

 

Vote going back on Orlok.

[Kynedath]

So Paranoid King is a scholar huh? Well that complicates things. I'm just worried that he is a diagrammist scholar, which is most absolutely still possible. If that is so, then you will be laying low for the next two or three cycles to try to regain our trust. I still find you very suspicious but I do think that we need your information. Know that I will be watching you Paranoid King. If you are not a diagrammist then the eliminators will be trying to kill you to stop our flow of information so I think that in around another two to three cycles, we will have a definitive answer as to if you are a diagrammist or not.

 

Hellscythe, I think that the reason that everyone is attacking you is mostly your attitude and the content of your posts. Flippant answers, rhetorical questions and angry, varying remarks are not good ways to go about convincing us that you are innocent. After a clear list of your offenses, you still said that there was nothing to defend against. That is suspicious and you have made yourself much more prominent now then you were. On top of that, you really haven't contributed to the problems being discussed on the thread. Sure, there are one or two posts about the game but other than that, all you are doing is aggravating the players with your offhand, near blatantly disrespectful posts. You draw too much attention to yourself and I am fairly certain that if you are not lynched, then you will be targeted by the eliminators (unless you are one). Then again, before you were under attack, you gave no signs of suspicious activity. The comments you make could possibly be just your attitude towards the rest of the players and how that translates to playstyle. I think that it may be your anger at the others who are attacking you that is causing you to make mistakes. If you start to make posts that are more like debates than insults, then that may lower your suspicion in my eyes.

 

I do think that Venture is very suspicious and most definitely inactive and not contributing at all, making me wonder what he is doing. I know almost nothing of him except that he seems to want to be killed. I have no idea how that would help the diagrammists but then again, they could be trying for distraction. I don't know what they would try to distract from or if they are even trying to do so. But if Venture is not trying to distract us for the eliminators, then I don't see any other reason except that he doesn't like this game. He is going to be a hindrance if we let him live while doing nothing so, here's to you, Venture Mistborn.

 

@Elbereth Alright I concede that most have been two different day and night cycle, but coming into this game, I just expected hat players knew what they were getting into.

True, sorry, I didn't see that hidden in his post.

Yes that is what I meant

 

Current vote tally:

 

(3) Venture Mistborn: Kipper, Araris Valerian, Kynedath

(2) Bort: Sart, Starry Smite

(2) Paranoid King: Aonar Faileas, DeathClutch19

(7) Hellscythe: Mailliw73, Zas678, Clanky, Ookla, Adavantos, Tony Shark, Feligion

(1) Honey Badger: Hellscythe

(1) Orlok: Bort

 

If I have made any errors, please feel free to indicate them.

[Orlok Tsubodai]

Bort, I am sorry for not contributing as much - I've been thinking a fair bit about the game, and keeping track, but time has been a little sparse yesterday and this morning, and I haven't yet sorted through my thoughts so far.

In terms of suspicion, I too am suspicious of Hellscythe, but have been struggling to decide whether my thoughts are overly tempered by dislike of his apparent attitudes - a vote on him at this stage will make little difference, and I shall think a little more before deciding if I do want to vote for him, or place a little more pressure on Venture.

Aonar, I'm not all that sure whether Hanlon's razor actually applies in SE - we have to consider that some things may have been committed by the eliminators to be able to consider a full balance of evidence.

This isn't to say that this particular case is down to malice, but we ought to at least consider the possibility

[Hellscythe he/him]

If you're going to accuse me of something why don't you just put a vote to me in the thread?

 

I intentionally made that post directly aggressive to you not as an attack, but to see how other people would react. Then I could see if I could find where all of your votes were coming from. My intention was to try to relieve some pressure to you by giving you arguments you could easily create a defense for and answer others questions that may or may not come forward. Since instead you avoided my arguments and secretly accused me my vote remains.

I was actually planning on it if I lived to the next day. Voting on you today would do nothing. Nothing was secret. I had been putting white text in almost every post. I expected everyone to read it. Purposefully. I don't believe your false intent and still think you're a Diagrammist giving an excuse as to why you could bandwagon. My best hope at this point is that once I'm scanned and the scholars find that I'm well exactly what I said I am they'll look back at you. Apparently nobody else likes the idea of attacking Honey Badger and Venture Mistborn only has one post so he might as well be just as inactive. I would respond to Feligon's accusations but they don't exist. I also find it odd that Mail would say he is take his vote off me publicly then not actually Green out my name.o 

Edited December 17, 2015 by Hellscythe

[STINK he/him]

Why does everyone love white text? It's just an annoyance, and is a pain when you don't have a mouse.

[Tony Shark he/him]

I was actually planning on it if I lived to the next day. Voting on you today would do nothing. Nothing was secret. I had been putting white text in almost every post. I expected everyone to read it. Purposefully. I don't believe your false intent and still think you're a Diagrammist giving an excuse as to why you could bandwagon. Apparently nobody else likes the idea of attacking Honey Badger and Venture Mistborn only has one post so he might as well be just as inactive. I would respond to Feligon's accusations but they don't exist. I also find it odd that Mail would say he is take his vote off me publicly then not actually Green out my name.

I'm not "giving excuses" I gave logical explanation and a gave you a possibility to make me retract/move my vote, instead you've accused me and targeted others. My original vote was going to be towards PK who I am most suspicious of but the information we can get, even lies, is more important currently. 

 

I actually agree with you on your vote to Venture and he's currently number 3 on my lists (besides PK and you) but he hasn't been active enough for me to question him.

 

 @Mail I also would like to know why you haven't greened out your vote after you stated you would.

 

Why does everyone love white text? It's just an annoyance, and is a pain when you don't have a mouse.

I've gone through and highlighted every single post so far... I agree can we just not?

 

EDIT: Mail did green out.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Tony Shark

[Hellscythe he/him]

The fact that your top 3 suspicions just happen to be everyone up for the lynch is no surprise to me. Diagrammists do find it hard to find their own suspicions. I understand though. I've been there and it's not easy. But I mean hey, fake it till you make it gl. It's especially not surprising since I'm considering the fact that either both of them are innocent or both of them are evil. But not in between. But with you suspicious of them I'm leaning towards innocent.

 

 

I'm not going to add my vote to the list as I think he probably already has enough votes, but I do have to say I've been most unimpressed with Hellscythe's responses. Rather than defend himself, he has ranted, tried to point the finger at others, and came up with what sounds like fictional scenarios to shift suspicion onto others.

Agreed. Idk what this whole "fictional scenario" thing is you're talking about but I agree. Except for the point finger thing. I didn't do any of that. I actually did the opposite and tried to rally everyone against voting for PK and Venture. Tony was blatant. Still is. I called him out on it. But that's for a later cycle.

 

I wish I hadn't responded at all instead of replying to Mail's obvious taunts. My fault, I thought he was actually trying to bring up valid points. Now that I look back on it, it was glaringly obvious he was trying to get me to respond to rack up more votes.
 

That piled on with people just voting for me because I was responding angrily to Mail just made me more angry. (Which I only see now) (When I was reading the thread yesterday it wasn't as obvious how mad I was sorry for that) (I thought people were legitimately voting for me with no reasoning) Perpetual cycles of emotion are somethings I like to avoid.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Hellscythe

[Tony Shark he/him]

 

The fact that your top 3 suspicions just happen to be everyone up for the lynch is no surprise to me. Diagrammists do find it hard to find their own suspicions. I understand though. I've been there and it's not easy. But I mean hey, fake it till you make it gl. It's especially not surprising since I'm considering the fact that either both of them are innocent or both of them are evil. But not in between. But with you suspicious of them I'm leaning towards innocent.

 

 

Agreed. Idk what this whole "fictional scenario" thing is you're talking about but I agree. Except for the point finger thing. I didn't do any of that. I actually did the opposite and tried to rally everyone against voting for PK and Venture. Tony was blatant. Still is. I called him out on it. But that's for a later cycle.

Do you want my list?;

 

Pk-was forced to role claim

Hellscythe-was given opportunities to clear my vote and still hasn't attempted to.

Venture- was attacked (and protected) with almost no posting and hasn't tried to deny claims.

Mail- posted the list a dangerous move by itself, but also it seems as if hes changing his vote every other post.

Elbereth-seems to be floating around but not actually "helping the village" dramatically changes vote.

Creccio-received plenty of attention during the first cycle then dropped off the radar when he had to go do finals.

 

Both of them being evil? So far I haven't thought about that.

They happen to be the top three on the list because they are suspicious, why else would they be up for lynch?

 

I acted that blatantly aggressive to create a scenario where you could defend yourself instead you've done exactly what I tried to defend you for. What I said still stands, If you can argue and defend my accusations to you in my original post I will still retract my vote! 

 

EDIT: Grammar is not my forte.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Tony Shark