Mid-Range Game 10: Divided Loyalties

[Amanuensis he/him]

Yeah, my plan was flawed. This is why I like discussing these sort of things first, but for one reason or another my post about it last cycle was ignored. So yeah, PK, if you're not lying and actually have a result, go ahead and reveal it.

[Elkanah he/him]

The only reason I see fit for him to wait to reveal the scan is we need whoever is checking him to come out first. Not the Scholar mind you, but the proxy. To make sure the other "scholar" doesn't just copy whatever PK says. They have to tell the proxy first. Then when a proxy comes foreward and says they have been told the result, We ask PK to claim. At that point the proxy will say yea or nay.

 

That is the only way we can hold both of them accountable to not just copying the other.

 

Problems with this:

1 We are putting a lot of trust in the proxy to not be an eliminator

2 We are trusting an anonymous claimed scholar who will receive no repercussion from killing PK over a claimed Scholar who is on the wire.

3 Anyone could claim to be in contact with a scholar just to either kill or save PK

 

Overall, We may as well just take PK's info where we can and have him reveal. It sounds like the result was changed anyway and I'm ready to hear the troll.

 

Funny, I started out this message to discourage PK from revealing yet, but as I weighed all the other options, it seems like it wouldn't spare us any grief.

 

ALSO

 

Also Mail

 

What has Maill done to be suspicious that you didn't do in thread as well? I realize that you won't be able to see this until near the end of the cycle, but I'd like a response when you're back.

 

Some Parallels: Revealing factions

                          Having Heated discussions over lynches

                          Changing who you are voting for frequently.

 

Frankly, I don't see any of these as inherently evil, I just want to show that anything Maill has done that is suspicious, you have done on a grander scale.

[Kynedath]

I agree that PK should give us his info now. There is not going to be any one that we all trust to be a scholar or an intermediary. So we know that we can't trust anyone other than PK 100% and we know that we can't trust PK 100%. This leaves us needing to decide if we should trust him or not. I'm leaning towards not myself. I still think that he can't be trusted for the reasons that I stated before, but I also find it odd that he wasn't attacked. It might have been that everyone knew that he was going to be protected, and he even might have been. but we still only have three active cooks so far, making it likely that one would have went for him. The other possible reason for PK not to have been targeted is that he could be an explorer or elsecaller and be lying about being a scholar. Not too likely as he would know that we expect his info this cycle, but I guess it's still a possibility.

 

Speaking or the cooks, we still only have three cooks going for people. Either the cook is one of the inactives, there are only three cooks, or else They decided to not go for PK or another because they wanted the information as well. This leads me to believe that if there is a diagrammist cook, it is not the inactive one. A diagrammist cook would get no benefit from staying inactive. They don't need more information, they just need to strategically kill us all off so that we don't know who they are. By killing nobody, they are delaying their win.

 

Elkanah, you didn't comment on my last post about you. I expected some sort of retort or response. Is you ignoring me just you not knowing what to say, or are you just up to something nefarious? This is not an accusation but rather a request for motives.

[Aonar he/him]

Now that I finally have time to post today: I received information from a Scholar, and I have been told what Sart's role was. (Or at least, what he was scanned as.) However, they would prefer that PK reveal what he knows before I make known what they have told me.

[Paranoid King he/him]

The result returned from scanning Sart was:

Diagrammist Bondsmith

Edit: From now on, should I just post my results as soon as I get on? If I'm innocent, you guys have more to discuss. If I'm an eliminator, I have less time to coordinate with my buddies. Looks like a win-win either way.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Paranoid King

[Zas678 he/him]

I think so. Do you also get the position that he had (regular, captain, etc)? That might be one of the easiest ways to double check since that information is accurate, since that's something that is knowable definitely by a few, but not completely known by everyone. 

[Amanuensis he/him]

Now that I finally have time to post today: I received information from a Scholar, and I have been told what Sart's role was. (Or at least, what he was scanned as.) However, they would prefer that PK reveal what he knows before I make known what they have told me.

 

The result returned from scanning Sart was:

Diagrammist Bondsmith

Edit: From now on, should I just post my results as soon as I get on? If I'm innocent, you guys have more to discuss. If I'm an eliminator, I have less time to coordinate with my buddies. Looks like a win-win either way.

 

Aonar, does this match what your Scholar said?

[Elkanah he/him]

Wow. That helps a lot. I'm not sure how helpful discussing who to scan will be in the future. With only two people to scan, I don't think it would make much of a difference, but now that there are five and counting, the scholars need to investigate in private.

 

 

 

Sorry Kynedath, I had intended to respond to your post in my last one. I appreciate your earnestness. Like I said before, I don't blame you for voting for me. I didn't follow through on a commitment. however, I am not the enemy right now. I'd like to help in any way I can. I'd be willing to roleclaim if I thought it would help. Fortunately or not, I don't think the claims so far have helped us very much. 

 

Also, I'm sorry if my posts seem angry or defensive. I promise I'm not. Writing in thread is still new for me. 

 

double ninja'd

Edited December 18, 2015 by Elkanah

[RippleGylf she/her]

The result returned from scanning Sart was:

Diagrammist Bondsmith

Edit: From now on, should I just post my results as soon as I get on? If I'm innocent, you guys have more to discuss. If I'm an eliminator, I have less time to coordinate with my buddies. Looks like a win-win either way.

 

So, if PK is to be trusted, we were extremely lucky. I don't know if I've ever seen an eliminator lynched during the first cycle.

[Elkanah he/him]

The result returned from scanning Sart was:

Diagrammist Bondsmith

Edit: From now on, should I just post my results as soon as I get on? If I'm innocent, you guys have more to discuss. If I'm an eliminator, I have less time to coordinate with my buddies. Looks like a win-win either way.

 

I think that is a good idea. We'll have a more definitive answer when Aonar gives us tells what their Scholar's scan was.

[Amanuensis he/him]

So, if PK is to be trusted, we were extremely lucky. I don't know if I've ever seen an eliminator lynched during the first cycle.

 

Unfortunately this doesn't prove that PK can be trusted. First off, this is an obvious Elsecaller Transformation. My guess is they had enough time to put in the order after it was decided who PK would scan, and they chose Bondsmith with hopes of instigating him/her into revealing. They didn't account for the fact, however, that the Bondsmith would use his Adhesion ability as opposed to his Tension, it seems, because as Kipper announced on page one:

 

I have a bond with Adavantos for this cycle, fyi. Choose wisely, my loyal friend.

Paranoid King, your read on Sart?

 

As for PK, in this situation he doesn't even need to be a Scholar if he is evil. If he knew ahead of time what his Diagrammist Elsecaller friend was going to Transform Sart into, then all he would have to do is claim the same thing, so that way when a real Scholar confirms it he appears to be telling the truth. So basically we learned absolutely nothing this cycle except that I was right when I guessed the Diagrammists have an Elsecaller on their team. I just pray that another Scholar scanned Arraenae too and has a proxy of their own so we have some real information to work with.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Adavantos

[Aonar he/him]

The information I've received does corroborate Paranoid's theoretical scan results. (Those of Diagrammist Bondsmith.) I would agree that regardless of PK's trustworthiness, this seems an unlikely result; there's a very good chance that Alignment was changed, and the role certainly was. It is, however, a starting point. If Paranoid is a Diagrammist, and not in fact a Scholar (and there is no Scholar on the Diagrammist team) then we can lock down their Elsecaller by deciding in-thread who PK should scan. If there is a Scholar on the Diagrammist team, or PK is in fact innocent, then we will not be able to, but at the very least we'll have a slightly better idea of things going forwards.

[Paranoid King he/him]

Wait, so Kipper and Ada are bonded this cycle? And Sart died two cycles ago? And there's only one bondsmith in this game?

The vote was definitely manipulated.

Glad we could clear that up.

[Elbereth she/her]

Wow, three people were poisoned again? Why are the cooks so intent on killing people this game? I'm willing to guess that Stink's cook killed to prove their role. That may have been the Mace Windu cook. I'll bet the evil cook went after Adavantos. Which could mean whatever cook was upset at Maili last cycle might have gone after Hellscythe for the same reasons.

Also I'm just about done with finals so I'll be able to contribute more now.

I think something that bears going through is the four lynch trains from yesterday. I'll bet we can find a diagrammist or two lurking in the votes.

Edit: 3 ninjas

My guess would be that the same person who went after Arrenae in the first cycle went after Mace in this one. They seem equally random. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the cook is just rolling a die to see who they should kill. It's certainly possible, anyway.

I am Restares

Sons of Honor:

• Maili,
• DeathClutch
• Kipper
• Venture,
• Tony Shark
• Adavantos
• Clanky
• Elkanah
• STINK
• Kynedath
• Aonar
• Phat
• Starry Smite
• Sart
• Arraenae
• Burnt Spaghetti
• Jain

I am Lux

I am leaving on a plane today and I wont be checking the thread until friday night/saturday morning. This is going to be fun. Good Luck and may the odds be ever in your favor. Also, GG Cooks, way to kill everyone!

...Well. I don't have much to say to this, other than that it definitely makes the game more interesting.

Regarding the Scholars:

I figured out some logic, which got rather messy (and it was even messier before), so I spoilered it. I'm not sure how helpful it actually is.

There are three people involved in this mess: PK, the unknown Scholar, and Aonar. Any of them could be evil, and thus lying (or not). This makes for a lot of permutations if you combine them, but here's the individual possibilities.

PK evil-truth telling: He's a Scholar. He's likely going to tell the truth 90% of the time unless one of his teammates is up for a scan, or alternatively if Aonar is evil-lying or the unknown Scholar is evil-lying, though either of those would be dangerous given the possibility of other Scholars checking his work. No disadvantage to picking who he should scan publicly (in fact, slight advantage in the case of loyal fact-checking scholars).

PK evil-lying: He's not a Scholar. This is only likely if one of the other two is evil, and/or they have an Elsecaller. No disadvantage to picking scan publicly, because whoever we decide he should scan the Elsecaller will change (or not).

Scholar evil-truth: PK is either loyal or not a Scholar, unless there are two eliminator scholars (which seems unlikely). There's not much we can do here, either, except tie him/her up targeting a specific person.

Scholar evil-lying: PK is a Diagrammist Scholar, or Aonar and this "Scholar" are conspiring with Aonar just responding with a "yes" to whatever is said in thread (alternatively, eventually with a "no!" and getting PK lynched, which we should be wary of). Same as Aonar-lying, so see more thoughts there.

Aonar evil-truth telling: He's found a Scholar (or is potentially conspiring with one of his own teammates who is a Scholar). Assuming this Scholar is loyal (if not, see above in Scholar evil-lying), the gain is that he learns who the Scholar is going to scan even if it's not discussed in thread, unless the Scholar picks someone entirely on his/her own and doesn't say until later. Not much we can do here, that I can think of.

Aonar evil-lying: Aonar made that Scholar up completely out of thin air, and is just relying on people saying who to scan in thread and then using the Elsecaller for that. If they don't use the Elsecaller every time, it's still a problem because PK posts his result first (which does make more sense for the plan otherwise, I think) and all Aonar has to do is confirm. One potential solution to this is for PK to lie once, and see if Aonar catches it. Maybe not immediately, or maybe immediately. Up to you, PK.

So... There's that, for what it's worth.

Speaking or the cooks, we still only have three cooks going for people. Either the cook is one of the inactives, there are only three cooks, or else They decided to not go for PK or another because they wanted the information as well. This leads me to believe that if there is a diagrammist cook, it is not the inactive one. A diagrammist cook would get no benefit from staying inactive. They don't need more information, they just need to strategically kill us all off so that we don't know who they are. By killing nobody, they are delaying their win.

So. Regarding the cooks, it's still very possible that the Diagrammist cook is the inactive one, because he or she is, well, actually inactive. That is possible on either team, and is another explanation. Now, that cook could also just not know who to kill yet, which is also perfectly fine. But they aren't necessarily a Villager.

One other possibility that no one has brought up yet that I've seen: Ada's near-poisoning was a WGG. It was a bit weird, because there doesn't seem like a reason for him to be protected, though killing him seems like a Diagrammist cook more than anything else, I guess. Still strange, though.

Anyway, I was saying that it's certainly possible that Ada was targeted by a cook specifically to clear him. A variant of this would be that the cook who targeted him told someone else this (possibly Stink), and that person and Ada were both Diagrammists, so they arranged protection for him. While this is possible, it seems equally likely that the eliminators saw all of the talk of Venture's potential WGG last cycle and decided to try to implicate Adavantos as well (though I feel like an eliminator would have accused him of that right now, and I feel that the eliminators want to be just killing people now rather than trying for WGGs), or a Surgeon just happened to protect him from a (Diagrammist cook or not) kill, or even that one of the eliminators heard about Adavantos being targeted and decided to protect him to implicate him in a WGG.

So... I'm divided on the issue. Anyone else have thoughts? I do feel that I've accrued a slight amount of suspicion for Adavantos, but that's mostly just gut and nothing big enough for me to vote on him.

EDIT: Oh, and Kynedath, I think it was you that said I was contributing but not really helping? I'm trying my hardest here.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Elbereth

[Amanuensis he/him]

One other possibility that no one has brought up yet that I've seen: Ada's near-poisoning was a WGG. It was a bit weird, because there doesn't seem like a reason for him to be protected, though killing him seems like a Diagrammist cook more than anything else, I guess. Still strange, though.

Anyway, I was saying that it's certainly possible that Ada was targeted by a cook specifically to clear him. A variant of this would be that the cook who targeted him told someone else this (possibly Stink), and that person and Ada were both Diagrammists, so they arranged protection for him. While this is possible, it seems equally likely that the eliminators saw all of the talk of Venture's potential WGG last cycle and decided to try to implicate Adavantos as well (though I feel like an eliminator would have accused him of that right now, and I feel that the eliminators want to be just killing people now rather than trying for WGGs), or a Surgeon just happened to protect him from a (Diagrammist cook or not) kill, or even that one of the eliminators heard about Adavantos being targeted and decided to protect him to implicate him in a WGG.

So... I'm divided on the issue. Anyone else have thoughts? I do feel that I've accrued a slight amount of suspicion for Adavantos, but that's mostly just gut and nothing big enough for me to vote on him.

EDIT: Oh, and Kynedath, I think it was you that said I was contributing but not really helping? I'm trying my hardest here.

 

Emphasis mine.

 

Actually, Elby, I brought it up myself, as you can see here:

 

Wow, three people were poisoned again? Why are the cooks so intent on killing people this game? I'm willing to guess that Stink's cook killed to prove their role. That may have been the Mace Windu cook. I'll bet the evil cook went after Adavantos. Which could mean whatever cook was upset at Maili last cycle might have gone after Hellscythe for the same reasons.

 

Emphasis mine.

 

Given that no one really expressed suspicions of me last cycle I suppose that's possible, but it could also be a village Cook who believes I'm a Diagrammist for one reason or another (there's tons of things I've done that can be skewed either way) and decided it would be better to just kill me without outing themselves. But even if it was the Diagrammist cook that went after me, I should be the one to say that doesn't mean I'm not evil. With all the talk about a WGG last cycle and a statement that I made about the subject (will quote after this paragraph), this could have been a plot to gain trust. That being said I know it wasn't. Though the fact that I was protected is concerning for me. While I have a couple PMs none of them have claimed a protective role, let alone that they would look out for me. Considering we have two Runners and a Scholar claim and that I'm pretty sure the Diagrammists have either a Surgeon or an Edgedancer, that means either one of them decided not to protect Stink, Venture or PK in favor of me or the Diagrammists are trying to play some elaborate mind game with everyone by both attacking me and protecting me to make me look bad. I would not be surprised if they were trying to use my own words against me. For reference, here is what I'm referring to.

 

 

 

And before someone says there was a WGG last game , that doesn't mean it's less likely in this game. Because so many people think that as soon as a WGG occurs that it rules it out for the next few games, I would do it just to teach them not to make assumptions like that. Hell, I would literally do it every game until people started expecting it and then stop so that next time another situation comes up that seems like it could be a WGG but isn't they would lynch the survivor while we target others.

 

Edited December 18, 2015 by Adavantos

[Elbereth she/her]

I meant other than you. Mentioned in a way unbiased by your own perspective. Sorry, I should have been clearer.

[Amanuensis he/him]

I meant other than you. Mentioned in a way unbiased by your own perspective. Sorry, I should have been clearer.

 

No worries; just wanted to make sure it was seen so that no one called me out for not reacting to the attempt on my life at all, which is usually considered suspicious. I'm happy that you brought it up, honestly, because it always makes me uncomfortable when people don't question things like that when they involve me.

[Zas678 he/him]

I don't think it's a WGG. It's certainly possible, but I was guessing myself that Adavantos would be likely to be hit, if for no other reason than he's been very active and has been trying to use logic. That often proves more deadly than any particular role, as it can bring with it the possibility of lynching others and influencing others actions. 

[Burnt Spaghetti she/her]

Hey guys,

So once again, I apologise for my inactivity, but atm its a little more complicated than normal for me to post as I can only view and post from my mobile (which seems to be wanting to give up on me now… ) whereas previous games I've been able to frequently view the thread in multiple tabs so im rather un-used to having to use the mobile version and I'm not able to check the thread as often as I did previously. So yeah, there are IRL reasons behind my inactivity but I don't feel like going into all details.

Just had a thought: I'm looking at this cycles non lynch kills and wondered why would have Haelbarde have been targeted by the diagramists? He hadn't exactly said much in thread, and from memory what he has said I didn't seem kill worthy. Adavantos being attacked by a cook isn't too surprising as he is an active and talkative player, but Hael wasn't.

I wondered if then Hael may have been attacked due to a pm conversation but otherwise I don't know.

Hmm… the day 1 diagramist kill targeted Venture who was reasonably inactive. While Hael hasn't exactly been the most active he has still posted a few times.

Idk

Thoughts anybody?

I couldn't remember anyone else mentioning this so I thought I would bring it up.

[Kynedath]

Sorry Kynedath, I had intended to respond to your post in my last one. I appreciate your earnestness. Like I said before, I don't blame you for voting for me. I didn't follow through on a commitment. however, I am not the enemy right now. I'd like to help in any way I can. I'd be willing to roleclaim if I thought it would help. Fortunately or not, I don't think the claims so far have helped us very much. 

I can see that in the thread you are trying to fix the problem, and I can agree that we have bigger Fish to fry. Elkanah

 

 

So. Regarding the cooks, it's still very possible that the Diagrammist cook is the inactive one, because he or she is, well, actually inactive. That is possible on either team, and is another explanation. Now, that cook could also just not know who to kill yet, which is also perfectly fine. But they aren't necessarily a Villager.

That is true, but I find it unlikely. I have seen almost all of the players at least looking at the thread if not participating in it. The diagrammist cook should know who to kill due to both having open communication in the doc and just wanting to kill players to lower our numbers.

 

EDIT: Oh, and Kynedath, I think it was you that said I was contributing but not really helping? I'm trying my hardest here.

I don't remember saying anything like that but I will go check my posts and see what I can find.

 

Unfortunately, I am lost at this point. The game has gone on too many tangents and I don't know which ones to follow. I don't know who I can trust and I don't know how to deal with it. I have a few suspicions but I can't prove my suspicions with any amount of political maneuvering like the experienced players can. At this point, I think I will leave my vote blank until I know what to do. If anybody has any advice for me, I will take it with the openest arms imaginable.

 

EDIT: Elbereth I don't see anywhere that I accused you of not helping enough. Maybe you mistook Elkanah for yourself? The only other player that I accused of that (to the best of my knowledge) was PK.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Kynedath

[Guest]

I suggest that the Sons of Honor Scholars go for Mace Windu, and the Ghostbloods Scholars go for Hellscythe. Haelbarde was killed by then, so he, almost definitely, isn't a Diagrammist.

Obviously, we have a Diagrammist Elsecaller.

[Amanuensis he/him]

Unfortunately I don't have much time today, but something has been recently brought to my attention that I think everyone needs to know. A player I am in contact with via PM has claimed to me that they were the Surgeon who protected Venture C1. Their claim to me came off as very genuine and I have decided to, for now, trust that they are not a Diagrammist making a ploy to get me to pursue a false lead. Before receiving this information I was already convinced that the situation with him was not a WGG, which is why I expressed suspicions with my last post at the end of C2 for the players who were voting for him over Hellscythe. That being said, I think it is crucial that we look over everything that those who voted for Venture have posted in search of any peculiar comments or evidence that might suggest they are evil. I ask that players who are able to be active today begin discussing the following players and which of them you think is most suspicious in wanting to pursue the death of Venture: Araris, Kipper, Mailliw, and Kynedath (Hellscythe also voted for him but was killed, so hopefully tomorrow we will find out his role and alignment).

Edited December 18, 2015 by Adavantos

[Guest]

 

I ask that players who are able to be active today begin discussing the following players and which of them you think is most suspicious in wanting to pursue the death of Venture: Araris, Kipper, Mailliw, and Kynedath (Hellscythe also voted for him but was killed, so hopefully tomorrow we will find out his role and alignment).

 

Why are we necessarily suspicious for wanting to kill Venture Mistborn? We didn't have access to this information about the Surgeon, and I'm still not entirely sure that I believe it.

[Clanky he/him]

Just had a thought: I'm looking at this cycles non lynch kills and wondered why would have Haelbarde have been targeted by the diagramists? He hadn't exactly said much in thread, and from memory what he has said I didn't seem kill worthy. Adavantos being attacked by a cook isn't too surprising as he is an active and talkative player, but Hael wasn't.

I wondered if then Hael may have been attacked due to a pm conversation but otherwise I don't know.

Hmm… the day 1 diagramist kill targeted Venture who was reasonably inactive. While Hael hasn't exactly been the most active he has still posted a few times.

Idk

Thoughts anybody?

I couldn't remember anyone else mentioning this so I thought I would bring it up.

Yes I had thought about this earlier and came to this conclusion:

 

The eliminators in any game but even more so in this game have the benefit of information.   In this game the only way we will know right away if a player wasn't a diagrammist is if they are killed by the diagrammists. So if the diagrammists only use their kills on players who haven't discussed anything then we get no information even from that. If I were a diagrammist I would do my kills based on players who have had the least interaction and therefore the least info for us to discuss.

[Amanuensis he/him]

@Kipper: It's not that you're suspicious for voting for him, just that towards the end of the cycle there's a good chance a Diagrammist saw an opportunity to lynch the player they failed to murder and attempted to swing it away from Hellscythe for that reason. So since you were the first to vote for him I'm less wary of you in favor of Mail or Kynedath, for example.