Civil. War.

[Briar King]

Well the Law in this case I think has to do with publically registering super heroes. It's fairly obvious Tony'd be all for that (end of Iron Man 1, after all), and while you'd think Cap might also normally be on board, with Bucky...?

I'm hoping we get a big Agents of Shield tie-in, Winter Soldier style.

I'm pretty sure they are setting the stage since Boothe Powers character Mallick is on AoS and they been saying stuff about registered Inhumans on it after all.

[DSC01]

We'll definitely get an AoS tie-in. Sure, there's been a lot about Inhumans on the show, but they are interested in "enhanced" or "gifted" people in general. And when the Sokovia Accords become an issue, they will most assuredly have implications for SHIELD. It's too bad that AoS will react to or even set up the movies but the Agents themselves never show up in the movies. I understand the practical reasons that this is nearly impossible, but they would definitely have a dog in that fight.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

Great Noodly One, this looks amazing.  

[Bort]

Have a look at that big pile of pages that Colonel Ross gives to Cap

 

I meant the other way around. We might get a mention of the Sokovia Accords in AoS, but I think that will be about as far as it will go. Also, isn't it General Ross?

[Haelbarde]

I meant the other way around. We might get a mention of the Sokovia Accords in AoS, but I think that will be about as far as it will go. Also, isn't it General Ross?

Oh, okay.

 

And very true.

[Charononus]

I have to bring it up. Team Iron Man or Team Cap?

I agree with Cap,  but still want him to take a repulser blast to the face.  Don't know why but I have it out for the Cap and Superman on general principle.

[Kobold King]

I agree with Cap,  but still want him to take a repulser blast to the face.  Don't know why but I have it out for the Cap and Superman on general principle.

 

 

[Charononus]

Ok,  that was awesome.

[Kipper]

I was already more excited for this movie than I am for Star Wars, and this trailer sealed it.

CAN. NOT. WAIT!

Stop this blasphemy.

 

I think I'm Team Iron Man, although the party line will definitely be Team Cap.

[Curious Anamaximder]

*screams in delight*

[Delightful]

Team Cap. For now. I reserve the right to change my mind during th movie.

[Kestrel]

Team Cap.

Woah though, I can't wait for this

[little wilson]

I see both sides of the fight between Iron Man and Cap, but ultimately, I'm Team Iron Man. I fundamentally oppose Team Cap. Not that I disagree with rights and freedom and all of that, because I don't. I think it's a great thing to fight for, but using Bucky to do it? Bucky was used and abused and forced to become the criminal he became. If anything, I'd think that would make Cap more likely to support laws that limit that kind of stuff. Instead he's coming down to defend his friend in a way that not only defends his friend but also defends any other enhanced/Inhuman who uses their powers to harm others. To reference AoS, for every decent enhanced, there's a not-so-decent one. Laws are there to protect people, to make the whole safer. They also make it really easy to punish someone who's hurting people, because you don't have to define moral code or anything like that. You can just point to a law and say "You broke this; here's the consequence." While I think it's great that Cap is fighting for freedom and rights and defending his friend, that friend is a criminal and a perfect example, no matter how you look at it, of why the laws Cap is fighting against are necessary.

[Delightful]

I see both sides of the fight between Iron Man and Cap, but ultimately, I'm Team Iron Man. I fundamentally oppose Team Cap. Not that I disagree with rights and freedom and all of that, because I don't. I think it's a great thing to fight for, but using Bucky to do it? Bucky was used and abused and forced to become the criminal he became. If anything, I'd think that would make Cap more likely to support laws that limit that kind of stuff. Instead he's coming down to defend his friend in a way that not only defends his friend but also defends any other enhanced/Inhuman who uses their powers to harm others. To reference AoS, for every decent enhanced, there's a not-so-decent one. Laws are there to protect people, to make the whole safer. They also make it really easy to punish someone who's hurting people, because you don't have to define moral code or anything like that. You can just point to a law and say "You broke this; here's the consequence." While I think it's great that Cap is fighting for freedom and rights and defending his friend, that friend is a criminal and a perfect example, no matter how you look at it, of why the laws Cap is fighting against are necessary.

Huh. You might have just changed my mind.

[Kobold King]

I see both sides of the fight between Iron Man and Cap, but ultimately, I'm Team Iron Man. I fundamentally oppose Team Cap. Not that I disagree with rights and freedom and all of that, because I don't. I think it's a great thing to fight for, but using Bucky to do it? Bucky was used and abused and forced to become the criminal he became. If anything, I'd think that would make Cap more likely to support laws that limit that kind of stuff. Instead he's coming down to defend his friend in a way that not only defends his friend but also defends any other enhanced/Inhuman who uses their powers to harm others. To reference AoS, for every decent enhanced, there's a not-so-decent one. Laws are there to protect people, to make the whole safer. They also make it really easy to punish someone who's hurting people, because you don't have to define moral code or anything like that. You can just point to a law and say "You broke this; here's the consequence." While I think it's great that Cap is fighting for freedom and rights and defending his friend, that friend is a criminal and a perfect example, no matter how you look at it, of why the laws Cap is fighting against are necessary.

 

 

On the other hand--what happens if a war starts and the government institutes a draft, like it did as recently as the Vietnam War? Things haven't changed so much since then that it couldn't happen again, and if the government had a list of all superpowered folk, you can bet they'll be going after every Enhanced they can find and forcing them into battle.

 

You don't need a registration of all superhumans in order to carry out justice. There's not a government on this planet I would trust with such a list--bear in mind that not too long ago in this very universe, HYDRA of all entities was in complete control of the government, and nobody raised an eyebrow at their policies until Cap came along.

 

As for Bucky, well, there should be an investigation into the extent of his brainwashing and to what degree he carried out his crimes of his own free will. This is the same universe with objects like the Mind Stone--brainwashing and mind control are parts of the world now, and laws might need to be adjusted to take them into account.

[Delightful]

*begins reading*

*kobold is protesting governments"

typical.

[little wilson]

On the other hand--what happens if a war starts and the government institutes a draft, like it did as recently as the Vietnam War? Things haven't changed so much since then that it couldn't happen again, and if the government had a list of all superpowered folk, you can bet they'll be going after every Enhanced they can find and forcing them into battle.

 

You don't need a registration of all superhumans in order to carry out justice. There's not a government on this planet I would trust with such a list--bear in mind that not too long ago in this very universe, HYDRA of all entities was in complete control of the government, and nobody raised an eyebrow at their policies until Cap came along.

 

As for Bucky, well, there should be an investigation into the extent of his brainwashing and to what degree he carried out his crimes of his own free will. This is the same universe with objects like the Mind Stone--brainwashing and mind control are parts of the world now, and laws might need to be adjusted to take them into account.

 

I agree about mass registration. I think that's a violation, but it would definitely happen, given an opportunity. In that sense, I agree with Cap. My reasons for fundamentally opposing him is the platform he's using for it: Bucky. There should be an investigation into Bucky's actions. But maybe there was. Maybe they tried to bring Bucky in, but Cap blocked them by defending his friend. Maybe Bucky did something else and the officials decided that he was too much of a threat to warrant an investigation of his past crimes due to his recent crime, and Cap went to his friend's rescue. Maybe they did an investigation and found Bucky to have been in partial control of himself and Cap disagreed with the results. We don't know right now. What we do know is that Bucky committed crimes, and yes, he was brainwashed into committing those, but he still committed them, and there's some recompense that's needed for those crimes. We also know that people are trying to either take Bucky into custody or kill him. And we know that Cap is defending Bucky with all his power, to the point of betraying some of his former friends.

 

I'll admit that I'm not familiar with the comics, so I don't know the Civil War arc, but a bit ago, someone I know who is very familiar with that arc explained that Iron Man was backing the laws and registration efforts as a way to soften those same laws. If you've got a group of people making laws about superhumans, the best way to make sure those laws don't violate the rights of law-abiding superhumans is to have at least one superhuman on that council. I think that's what Tony's doing. He's trying to make sure that law-abiding superhumans don't have their rights stripped, but that's a fairly delicate process, since people tend to fear what they don't understand and what they can't control, which means that there will be those pushing for mass registration, but I'd be willing to bet Tony isn't one of those. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if he'd be pushing more for registration of those who break laws. Sort of like a sex offender list. You're not on the list until you do something wrong and cause harm to someone with your powers and then you're registered.

 

At least, that's what I'd do in Tony's position. But like I said, that's a delicate process when you're dealing with fear. You've got to be able to convince those pushing against you that your way is right. How easy do you think that would be when all of a sudden Captain America himself is fighting you head to head? Bucky could've been a reconciliation piece. Here's the Winter Soldier, who killed a lot of people but there's evidence he was brainwashed. Let's investigate this and if we find he's guilty, we can put him on trial and register him. Let's work this out like adults and not let fear control us. But then Captain America refuses to cooperate, even going so far as to fight an old friend and bring other superhumans in to help him out. That's not going to make Tony's job any easier. In fact, that's going to make it impossible. Cap's proving to those pushing for mass registration that that's the way to go. They'll be even more adamant that that's the only way to deal with superhumans.

 

Granted, this is based solely on the trailer, and there are no doubt a lot of extenuating circumstances that made this into what it is, but from the base read that I'm getting from it right now with Cap defending Bucky to keep him from being registered..... I've got to side with Tony.

[Kobold King]

*begins reading*

*kobold is protesting governments"

typical.

 

Spoilers for off-topicness.

 

Do you know what I see when I read the word "government," Delightful?

 

I see a lot of good people trying to do what they think is best. I see the local librarian. I see our nice mail lady. I see the kind people at church who fill various jobs at town hall. I see people that I have no grudge against, that I could never have any grudge against.

 

But then I look across the street and see our kind neighbors, a childless old couple, being forced from the home they've grown up in because someone built a mansion nearby and property taxes skyrocketed. I look at the news and see another teenager shot in the back by a police officer in some big city.

 

I look in the history books and I see American soldiers forcing my ancestors along the Trail of Tears. I see German soldiers guarding the concentration camps during the Holocaust. I see British soldiers firing into a crowd at the Boston Massacre and holding small children hostage at the climax of the Boer War. I see Australian officials leading small native children from sobbing parents, creating what would come to be known as the Stolen Generations.

 

And I know that behind every one of these atrocities was a room full of politicians in some court house, making a law that they just knew was going to make life so much better for their citizens. And as I continue to reel from the horrors that stare coldly out of my history book, I realize that whatever good laws those politicians might have written during their tenures simply couldn't have been worth it. There has to be another way, there simply has to be... if only because what we have right now is rooted in too much pain and suffering to be worth fighting for.

 

 

 

Do I sound like a broken record when I take my regular stance? If I do it's only because I care very deeply about what I say. And I'm sorry if it's become a cliche--I try to keep my arguing logical and relevant to the conversation. If you ever find yourself annoyed or rolling your eyes at  my stance, just remember that I care very deeply about urging people away from the horrors that are always on the next page of the history book.

 

 

 

 

Anyway, back on topic. I see your points, little wilson, though I don't trust government to remain objective and rational enough to enact proper justice as much as you do. In any case, I'm only glad to see that the next Cap movie is apparently immersed in so many shades of grey that it's already split the fandom joyously in twain. Nobody argued in favor of the Red Skull or HYDRA--it'll be fascinating to see a Marvel movie with enough grey in it to lead to such fascinating moral debates.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Kobold King

[Charononus]

 

 

Anyway, back on topic. I see your points, little wilson, though I don't trust government to remain objective and rational enough to enact proper justice as much as you do. In any case, I'm only glad to see that the next Cap movie is apparently immersed in so many shades of grey that it's already split the fandom joyously in twain. Nobody argued in favor of the Red Skull or HYDRA--it'll be fascinating to see a Marvel movie with enough grey in it to lead to such fascinating moral debates.

Team Ultron!  Carbon based life is so untidy.

[Curious Anamaximder]

True. Wilson convinced me. Team Tony.

[Mckeedee123]

Team Ultron!  Carbon based life is so untidy.

 

It's just the next step in evolution, people. Get used to it.

[little wilson]

I see your points, little wilson, though I don't trust government to remain objective and rational enough to enact proper justice as much as you do.

 

Oh, I don't trust government to make the right choice, and especially not big government. However, I don't want to get political, so I'll just say that what I do trust is my friends. If I were friends with Tony Stark and he were on a committee like this, I'd talk to him to figure out his gameplan. And I'd trust him not to screw it up by pissing everyone off and making things worse for his people. He's sarcastic and abrasive, but he does have a lot of clout. If his plan was reasonable, I'd give him a chance to pull it off. I'd help him out where I could. I actually think that's one of the reasons the "So was I" line is so powerful. Cap is doing so much for Bucky, but he couldn't trust Tony (from how it seems in the trailer. Which is likely not the case in the movie. There's far more going on than what we've seen).

[Orlion Blight]

The problem is that Tony

just almost destroyed humanity by creating Ultron

Based on the side he takes, I am assuming he's learned his lesson and do support Team Tony. At the same time, I don't expect Cap to see it in that way either... In fact, I imagine Cap has quite the ego now that he has recently been justified on a couple of big deals.

[+Slowswift]

I'm on Team Slowswift: buy an island in the middle of the Pacific and ignore the rest of the world while you play with your cool powers. Why yes I am an introvert can you tell

[Mailliw73]

I'm like Delightful. I'm tentatively on Cap's side, but just slightly. I see both sides and I'm not sure exactly where I'd fight, but I'm currently swinging just a bit towards Cap. Wilson's argument though, is exactly what is keeping me from completely siding with Steve. After the movie, I'll decide for sure.