am I the only one who liked the Khabranth reveal at the end?

[Necessary Eagle she/her]

From what I've seen here and on Reddit, Kharbranth being secretly saved seems to be an unpopular decision, but I actually prefer it.

It felt... odd for Todium to destroy the one thing he still loved, especially since his pure emotional half was all "wraaagh, must conquer the universe so that nothing can ever harm my family!" It just felt off to me. Like Mortal Taravangian and Odium Taravangian were now two different characters, instead of a continuum. I don't know, I'm having trouble putting my feelings into the right words.

 

Then we find out at the end that Mr. Utilitarianism can talk the talk, but ultimately can't walk the walk. That felt very Taravangian, posturing about how he's all about the Greater Good and he'll sacrifice anything to get there, but in the end he can't bring himself to do it. Fittingly, he's the hypocrite he accused Jasnah of being. And as he admits to himself at the end, it's a win for Dalinar that he himself utimately couldn't kill his own "suckling child".

So I think it works better this way both as a character choice and thematically. I was much happier with the reveal than with the original destruction.

(Well, mostly happy, it is also messing with my head a bit because the whole scenario is bizarrely similar to a crack theory I have in an entirely separate fandom, lol)

 

Edited December 16, 2024 by Necessary Ookla

[Isaiah Zayth he/him]

I liked the decision and it was an excellent way to install a weakness for Taravangian that will very likely be exploited in the back half of the series.

It’s also interesting to consider that Jasnah has a very good case for retribution against Taravangian for exposing her as a hypocrite in the Fen debate and then showing himself as a complete hypocrite by saving his family.

It’s very possible the power of Retribution would agree with Jasnah if she exposes Taravangian’s secret, thereby causing the power to resist something Taravangian wants to do at a key point in the future. 

Edited December 16, 2024 by Isaiah Zayth

[Kfish]

I liked it because if reinforces hos Taravangian puts up a front. He talks about doing what's best for everyone but that's not it. It's about power for himself. 

 

[therunner he/him]

I also liked the reveal.

The destruction of Kharbanth felt like relatively cheap shock value moment (which admittedly did shock me) that was very out of character both for old Taravangian, and for TOdium as well.

The reveal at the end therefore felt natural to me.

[MagicMaggot]

When the guy is supposed to stick around for another 5+ books as a central character, it would have been really odd planning to have him throw out all ties to his humanity while he is still in the infancy of his godhood. If he had really irrevocably destroyed Kharbranth, there wouldn't even be the appearance of any feasible way but down for him, which sounds less interesting than what we have now. 

Not sure I like the "city in the spiritual realm " precedent much, though. But I guess we'll see how that plays out when we actually explore life there. 

Edited December 16, 2024 by MagicMaggot

[Isaiah Zayth he/him]

2 hours ago, MagicMaggot said:

Not sure I like the "city in the spiritual realm " precedent much, though. But I guess we'll see how that plays out when we actually explore life there. 

I think Taravangian will try to reduce the impact this secret has on him by setting up his family and people in the physical realm. He'll need to develop a whole mythology that explains why they would need to leave Karbranth, but given the strange way time works in the spiritual realm, it's possible.

It seems like he has direct control over how much time passes given what happened to Gavinor, so perhaps he allows multiple generations to live our their days in the SR while only a year or so passes in the PR. He could foster seeds for why they would need to leave and foster totally different names/terms for any history that would tie them to Karbranth, then move them to another world (potentially one that he conquers). That would make it much harder to reveal his secret.

Then again... the only people who can get to the SR are Bondsmiths, right? So right now, there isn't anyone on Roshar able to get to the SR. Navani is in a coma and Ishar is off chilling with Kaladin learning how to be sane again.

Edited December 16, 2024 by Isaiah Zayth
Grammar

[RedBlue]

I haven’t seen many people dislike the Spiritual Kharbranth twist, but maybe I’ve just been reading different things.

I thought it was a good twist. Very in-character for Taravangian, it’s a satisfying bruise on his ego to close out the first half with, and it’s a good plot hook for the second half of the series.

It would be cool if book 6 had POVs from someone inside Fake Kharbranth, for an interlude or something. Imagine finding out that you’ve been living in a massive collective vision for the last decade. That would mess with your head.

[Returned he/him]

I also liked it. It gives some valuable human depth to Taravangian, shows an interesting congruence between him and the power of Odium, and introduces a break between his intellectual designs and his follow through.

It seems like it will be a good symbolic and practical pressure point for him going forward and I expect some interesting plot developments to come from it. I'm also intrigued about how long it can persist. Since they're the real souls of the real people, rather than simulacra, will they notice oddities from existing only in this spiritual construct? What will the consequences of that be, and how will Taravangian respond? His behavior suggests removing memories, but how long can that go on and still satisfy him?

Edited December 16, 2024 by Returned

[Ripheus23]

I thought it was wondrously eerie. Like I got a really strong feathery-blurred-edges-movie-scene vibe from it. (Outdated example: Sisko in the realm of the Prophets in DS9.) If Jasnah's flashback book is 10, if Sanderson loves playing the magic-city trope as straight as can be (and then some), then part of final showdown with Taravangian being in the City of Bells, one of the places where the story began as a whole no less, would fit really nicely.

The other major beginning-scenes chunk (WoK-wise) was in the Shattered Plains, where Odium's Shardpool is. So there'd be a good reason for part of the final showdown being there, too. There's a lot of symmetry to do, here and there... (And wherever the Heralds were in the uber-flashback, would be great for the climactic epilogue...)

Unfortunately or not, I think that this book is the best fantasy book I've ever read, period, so I might be biased in favor of every major scene, though

[LadyLameness]

I loved it - best fake out death Brandon's ever done. 

Taravangian's in such a crunchy spot now - Kharbranth was his city, his home. I truly believe he puts this city above all else which is why he made the deal he did at the end of Oathbringer - it's special and he can't bare the thought of it being targeted and that that makes him so vulnerable.  

But also I think there's also the fun of the Shard of Odium being bound by the Oathbringer promise to not harm the people born in Kharbranth - Taravangian having to make it look like he destroyed the city without breaking the Oath the Shard itself is bound by. Taravangian being stuck in the middle of his human emotions for the city leaving him open for attack if discovered and having to remain calculating to protect the city without it being known he's doing so was really fun. 

[Texside he/him/his]

Likewise, I loved it!

I thought it showed an incredible amount of inconsistency on Taravangian's part. And this may be absurd to say about a person who is a Shard, butI thought it helped humanize him. And showed the dangers of a Shard being humanized. It's a promise of good future drama, and I liked it.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

Wholeheartedly agree with all the above. I also wonder if Dalinar knew about this, given he sends Honor's power to Taravangian to learn and at the end of the scene it acknowledges he was right.

[Dalluminum he/him]

This was one of my favourite scenes at the end of the book. Taravangian is one of my favorite characters of all time, and I was really sad when he destroyed Kharbranth. It was like "No, he's completely consumed by Odium!" But then we got the Kharbranth SR reveal, and it was like "Yay, some shred of him is still there somewhere!"

All around, I loved the scene... but I'm a horrible critic. I really just tend to love everything Brandon writes LOL.

[Stormchild]

Putting the whole city in the spiritual realm so that he could keep things safe and how he wanted them felt very akin to Wanda Vision. Did anyone else get that vibe?

[Isilel]

On 12/16/2024 at 4:09 PM, Necessary Eagle said:

 

It felt... odd for Todium to destroy the one thing he still loved, 

 

It felt jarring to me from utilitarian PoV too, because ROdium's deal with T was that he'd _spare_ the city of Kharbranth and it's people. I have re-read the relevant passage and there is nothing about _giving_ it to Taravangian.

I accept that TOdium still had authority there as a  legal king and thus could smite it, but he was breaking Odium's very clear promise by doing so.

So, I was waiting for TOdium to get hurt in a backlash from this action, and when nothing happened, I thought that it was a big plot-hole.Which Spiritual realm shenanigans somewhat alleviated, though he still destroyed the city without consequences. Does the copy in SR somehow count towards sparing  it?

[LadyLameness]

I think it does - the agreement was always to protect the people from attack instead of preserve the area itself. 
 

Edit: Actually, going back it does say “The city itself and any who have been born into it…” - which makes me think several things,

1) it was still possible because I think the purpose of this was to prevent Rayse from indirectly killing the people of Kharbranth. It would be the whole idea of starting a tidal wave that happened to head that direction and kill them. I think the reason T could do it was he had the Intent to save them from the very beginning - it wouldn’t matter if he sent a tidal wave at the city if it knew it would be empty by the time it got there. Then he truly is just causing a random wave because it was never going to do any harm. The overall point being, that Odium was agreeing to not only, not harm the populous, but also to not bring harm to the populous through a chain of events. 

2) it makes me wonder if it was actually a necessity that the Khabranthian’s not just live but be allowed to continue to live in a version of Khabranth. So while T would keep the structure in the SR to keep up the ruse, it makes me question if he could have done anything else (created a new city, dumped them somewhere else on Roshar etc). 

3) Tidal waves are destructive but not to the extent that they the entire city would be wiped clean of the mountainside. That’s not even to say how much of it is built into the mountain and would probably be protected to some degree against an external weather threat. The city would be highly damaged but still standing. 

4} the end of the negotiations in OB, Odium brings up the spirit vs letter of an agreement - I don’t think he’s lying here, I think the Shard itself tends towards the spirit of an agreement over the exact wording of one, which gives a something really crunchy story wise because it gives flexibility m. But what’s more that “spirit of the agreement” is now being seen from both sides of the aisle - the Shard having seen it through Rayse’s perspective and now also Taravangian’s (potentially), different read on the contract. The Shard of Odium itself is having to contend with having two different ways this deal was conceived which further impacts on its overall flexibility. 
 

I think I still agree with the fact that it fits but it did take more consideration. 

[Karger he/him]

I have to admit it was a pretty good reveal.  Also I was a bit shocked he was able to destroy them in the first place given the agreement.

[rridgway]

The residents of Kharbranth returning to the Physical Realm somehow seem like a good candidate for the sailors on the infinite sea.

[BinarySecond]

On 12/23/2024 at 2:58 PM, Karger said:

I have to admit it was a pretty good reveal.  Also I was a bit shocked he was able to destroy them in the first place given the agreement.

I agree, the only reason he's getting away with it presently is because the deal was made between Rayse-Odium and mortal Taravangian.

I think TOdium is still bound to the agreement and has broken it. This violated oath should come up in the back half to make his life very difficult.

[Through The Living Ash he/him]

No, I believe that Taravangian, as Odium, now represents both sides of the deal, and so he may choose to void it without facing any consequences. Cultivation definitely would have known if TOdium was breaking the deal by destroying Kharbranth, and mentioned or used that. It was a purely emotional decision for Taravangian, which makes it all the more powerful an example. 

[BinarySecond]

I would argue that the deal was made out of sight of everyone else. Odium kept pulling people into that little spiritual realm pocket.

Taravangian was marvelling at all the plans Rayse had. I don't think anyone else, Shard or otherwise, would have been able to view it without entering the Spiritual realm.

As such the nature of the deal is hidden completely. If Cultivation could know would there be any reason to not exploit it immediately?

 

The wave is coming "ah ah ah you can't damage Kharbranth"

My view is the deal is made with the power and you can't just back out of it without consequence - Especially now he's bound up with Honour as well.