Chapters 31 and 32

[The Stick]

I do have a big problem with the whole perpendicularity scene. I mean, I took Night blood to collapse the last one. We know Honor's Perpendicularity has a huge amount of Investiture. I just kind of doubt Mraize's little anti-light knife was strong enough.

As to Nohadon, I do not think he is Tanavast. I think perhaps Tanavast inspired him to write WoK, but I think him just randomly becoming Nohadon is a little questionable. I think I could accept it if we used Hoid's 3 moons story as foreshadowing. However, I have no doubt that Dalinar will meet whatever remnant of Nohadon there is in the SR. I think Nohadon will be the one who makes him Honorable enough to pick up the power.

[AquaRegia he/him]

a)  I love the idea that Iyatil might be using emotional allomancy on Shallan, the idiot Windrunners, or both.

b)  I literally laughed out loud when Pattern spotted Lift spying (again).  I assume the other soul with her is Gavinor - they were recently together, and the last thing she told him was "sometimes you HAVE to do things you're not supposed to do."

c)  Is this our first confirmation that all the Oathgate spren are in fact giant-sized Inkspren?  Also, why has there been no particular interest among the residents of Urithiru in them starting choose Sja-Anat's "Enlightenment" and refusing service to Knights Radiant?

There is just way too much going on in this story, my head is spinning.

[Rorzikel]

21 hours ago, GudThymes said:

Otherwise, what a couple of chapters. I am so glad to see that the anti-light is being used for something other than just killing Spren. Albeit I'm a little confused on the mechanics. My understanding is that the anti-light should only take out an equal amount of stormlight and given that a perpendicularity is "infinite" how would that actually cause the collapse?

 

Something about moment instability creating turbulence or something like that? It wouldn't break anything about bonds or powers but just causing a momentary disruption during the reaction?

48 minutes ago, The Stick said:

I do have a big problem with the whole perpendicularity scene. I mean, I took Night blood to collapse the last one. We know Honor's Perpendicularity has a huge amount of Investiture. I just kind of doubt Mraize's little anti-light knife was strong enough.

You can pop a balloon with a pin or fell a tree with a small chunk taken out.

[OoklaApologist She/her]

23 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Does Tower-Life lead to excess? Inhumanity? Isolationism? 

Is it going to turn off when Navani goes to the spiritual realm?

[teknopathetic he/him]

Rlain being irked at Shallan for not sharing information, followed directly by relain and his spren never getting around to telling people they can overlap their bodies in shadesmaar. 

…..

Rlain… you could maybe anticipate people’s needs too  That’s extremely important information to know  

Or that enlightened spren are more in the spiritual? No? Not interested in sharing that? We have tuning forks to ring do we? 

——

I think the one thing really bothering me about Stormlight is this sort of stuff. People don’t share information when it makes sense to in order for Brandon to surprise people in the moment

The biggest one is the contest of champions. I cannot believe, at all, that Dalinar would not ask to get details on what that contest actually entails. Odium gets to know it all, while Dalinar just sort of shows up and hopes he packed appropriately? 
 

We just show up? What can we bring? Is it mental and physical? Like, what? No details? Could we name a Greatshell as champion? Can we kill the enemy with one of Rabonial’s diseases? Can we bring anti-Stormlight? Swords? Hands? Flutes? Could a spren be champion? Can we bring Fabrials? 
 

like, what? 

Edited November 19, 2024 by teknopathetic

[GudThymes he/him]

1 hour ago, Rorzikel said:

You can pop a balloon with a pin or fell a tree with a small chunk taken out.

Sure, but tossing a stone in a rushing river has no impact. Or adding concentrated hydrochloric acid to an ocean would do nothing.

Obviously the anti-stormlight affected the perpendicularity, but why? It means that the nature of the perpendicularity that Dalinar creates is more like a balloon than a river, but is a shardpool the same? Would exposing anti-investiture into a shardpool of the same shard cause it to collapse?

[Rorzikel]

3 minutes ago, GudThymes said:

Sure, but tossing a stone in a rushing river has no impact. Or adding concentrated hydrochloric acid to an ocean would do nothing.

Obviously the anti-stormlight affected the perpendicularity, but why? It means that the nature of the perpendicularity that Dalinar creates is more like a balloon than a river, but is a shardpool the same? Would exposing anti-investiture into a shardpool of the same shard cause it to collapse?

Maybe?

There's certainly differences between Dalinar's perp and shardpools. One is temporary while the other is constant. One is able to be opened anywhere while the others are fixed. And Dalinar's perp is a column of light not a body liquid. There could be varying results.

Regardless, I see Mraize as compromising the structure that Dalinar has generated much like Nightblood did. The stormfather said right after that NB couldn't destroy the power of a shard, that Szeth merely collapsed it, and that it was resummonable. The anti-light explosion seems to be the same, just with not all of the investiture siphoned up into a certain greedy maw.

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

When I was reading I was struck by this:

Quote

As a king leaves a people with the gift of his absence, so that they may grow and solve their own problems, without his hand to always guide them.

I know everyone has been theorizing about Nohadon and Honor in this thread but man does this sound like Cultivation's philosophy. What she was trying to explain to Taravangian. I wonder if she had influence on Nohadon. Or if Tanavast picked this up from her.

It also mirrors Kaladin's storyline quite well. He stepped back from leading the Windrunners. 4th ideal (and my theory is also 5th) for Windrunners seem to start moving in the Leadership direction (their 2nd attribute after Protecting). So 5th ideal could be something related to what Nohadon is saying here.

[Ewery1]

17 minutes ago, Dreamwa1ker said:

When I was reading I was struck by this:

I know everyone has been theorizing about Nohadon and Honor in this thread but man does this sound like Cultivation's philosophy. What she was trying to explain to Taravangian. I wonder if she had influence on Nohadon. Or if Tanavast picked this up from her.

It also mirrors Kaladin's storyline quite well. He stepped back from leading the Windrunners. 4th ideal (and my theory is also 5th) for Windrunners seem to start moving in the Leadership direction (their 2nd attribute after Protecting). So 5th ideal could be something related to what Nohadon is saying here.

I had the same exact thought - it really sounds like her conversation with T!Odium. So curious about why she wanted Dalinar and Navani (and more?) trapped in the Spiritual, but I suspect we won’t find out any of her true plans until the back half.

Also curious about how shardic future sight interacts with characters ENTERING THE SPIRITUAL. Seems like it would break it, much like Renarin breaks Odium’s.

Edited November 20, 2024 by Ewery1

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

9 hours ago, KelsierApologist said:

Is it going to turn off when Navani goes to the spiritual realm?

Technically the Spiritual Realm is 'All Places in One', and Allomancy is draws upon Investiture from Preservation no matter where in the Cosmere it's used in, so it probably won't?

This is weird, because now the human component of the magic is in the Spiritual Realm instead of the Shard/Splinter. An interesting reversal to what we know.

[+robardin he/him]

I am assuming for now that it's Iyatil as an Elsecaller and Mraize as a Lightweaver, both with an unknown modification to their Soulcasting ability.

Sja-Anat can -- if not already has -- "enlightened" Radiant spren of every type, if willing, except what could make a Bondsmith, as the Great Spren are only three in number and apparently beyond her ability to Enlighten (whether a power level thing or simply being fundamentally unwilling).

As to what would convince the spren to submit to her Enlightenment, it's because she "offers a third way", a very interesting way to put it. The Way of the Spren, if you will, unbeholden to Honor/Cultivation nor to Odium, while partaking of both of them, so to speak. And they've also recruited another kind of "spren" to their side, in Ala the seon, so they must have a pretty good pitch (thanks, Kelsier!).

If we assume the illusions that the three GBs used to pass as Shallan's three guards were Lightweavings (and not some other Cosmere magic they have access to), then one of Mraize/Iyatil has bonded an Enlightened Cryptic, as we've already seen that an Enlightened Mistspren does not grant the Surge of Illumination in a way that can be used to make illusions (and it's apparently consistent, as Renarin and Rlain both have those "stained glass Odiumvisions", though Rlain has yet to do the "external Allomantic gold shadow projection" trick).

Which makes me wonder what the "other" Surge would be like in Enlightened form, that of Transformation (Soulcasting). Hmm!

Whichever of Mraize/Iyatil is not the Lightweaver, obviously has the Surge of Transportation: Elsecaller or Willshaper.

I wonder what appeal a "third way" would have for a lightspren, as we've seen in RoW that they have (as a group) already refused to continue aligning with Team Honor under direction of a Bondsmith, and have gone off to be with the listeners. That, or they are ALL very open to Enlightenment.

And of course, both Renarin and Rlain ARE aligned with Dalinar despite having bonded Enlightened mistspren. So the "third way" doesn't preclude alignment with Ways One or Two.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

18 hours ago, Rorzikel said:

Maybe?

There's certainly differences between Dalinar's perp and shardpools. One is temporary while the other is constant. One is able to be opened anywhere while the others are fixed. And Dalinar's perp is a column of light not a body liquid. There could be varying results.

Regardless, I see Mraize as compromising the structure that Dalinar has generated much like Nightblood did. The stormfather said right after that NB couldn't destroy the power of a shard, that Szeth merely collapsed it, and that it was resummonable. The anti-light explosion seems to be the same, just with not all of the investiture siphoned up into a certain greedy maw.

I agree - the perpendicularity is not a stable thing that will just sit there regardless of what happens to it. It's a very temporary and (in my mind) unstable thing that Dalinar has to intentionall keep open, using effort. We see him even straining to keep it open in RoW when talking to Ishar. When it gets disrupted and consumed by Nightblood, it just collapses on itself and is shut down. But the SF tells Dalinar it's not a big deal, it can't be damaged by something that mortals make, so he would be able to summon it again.

I do think the anti-light is a different story - this isn't just disrupting the perpendicularity with something that is consuming the stormlight and sending it back to the Spiritual Realm, but is instead causing both an explosion and the destruction of a portion of the investiture that makes up the perpendicularity. I personally would not be shocked to find out that when the investiture was annihilated by the anti-investiture, it resulted in a bit of a vacuum effect that also sucked those nearby into the Spiritual realm as it collapsed.

[+robardin he/him]

As to why Mraize threw his anti-Stormlight dagger into the Perpendicularity, the answer is obvious: to cause a big explosion that would probably allow him and Iyatil to break free and escape.

He has no idea what else would happen, i.e., what stage of the unknown process that Dalinar and Navani were undergoing to use the Perpendicularity to enter the SR, but not being captured is a pretty good reason.

It is interesting that ALL "Enlightened" spren apparently have a good affinity with the SR, beyond the normal versions of those spren. I guess that has to do with their "futurevision", if indeed they all have a form of that, which would explain why Sja-Anat calls it "enlightening".

[+Oltux72 he/him]

5 hours ago, robardin said:

If we assume the illusions that the three GBs used to pass as Shallan's three guards were Lightweavings (and not some other Cosmere magic they have access to), then one of Mraize/Iyatil has bonded an Enlightened Cryptic, as we've already seen that an Enlightened Mistspren does not grant the Surge of Illumination in a way that can be used to make illusions (and it's apparently consistent, as Renarin and Rlain both have those "stained glass Odiumvisions", though Rlain has yet to do the "external Allomantic gold shadow projection" trick).

Even if that is pure random chance (that is Sja-Anat does not get to determine that) the purely statistical chance is 1/4). Not good enough to draw conclusions from.

[MPHRD]

Anyone think Iyatil might have used a speed bubble?

[AquaRegia he/him]

10 minutes ago, MPHRD said:

Anyone think Iyatil might have used a speed bubble?

YESSSSS.  Hadn't occurred to me, but I LIKE IT!

Having unkeyed metalminds on a serious away mission would be a tremendous advantage; but without the ability to refill them, one would use them VERY sparingly and only in the most critical of circumstances.  Such as fighting for your life.

[OoklaApologist She/her]

15 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Technically the Spiritual Realm is 'All Places in One', and Allomancy is draws upon Investiture from Preservation no matter where in the Cosmere it's used in, so it probably won't?

This is weird, because now the human component of the magic is in the Spiritual Realm instead of the Shard/Splinter. An interesting reversal to what we know.

Isn’t there a WoB that says that if Navani left the tower for too long the bond would decay? If that was true, wouldn’t it be more like Selish magic where the investiture is tied to a place? Or would it would be more like bringing spren over planetary lines? 

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

1 minute ago, KelsierApologist said:

Isn’t there a WoB that says that if Navani left the tower for too long the bond would decay? If that was true, wouldn’t it be more like Selish magic where the investiture is tied to a place? Or would it would be more like bringing spren over planetary lines? 

Yes, but she is now technically everywhere and nowhere, so there's reason to believe both possibilities due to just how weird the Spiritual Realm is.

Although, if the bond were to fail and Towerlight were to stop being produced, it could lead to a last-second, last-ditch attack on Urithiru.

Especially with all that talk from the Sibling about how the Tower is impenetrable. Which sounds almost like foreshadowing.

[Confused]

This week's limerick summarizing the released chapters:

Navani and Dal talk to Wit
About searching the SR a bit.
While Shallan and her crew
Track the Ghostbloods back to
The perp, so that Mraize then can blow it.

To their fans, my apologies for not mentioning Rlain and Renarin. Only so much can fit into a limerick... Regards! C.

P.S. - Does anyone know how to single-space lines? I prefer the limericks to be single-spaced. Thanks! 

Edited November 21, 2024 by Confused

[Michael Portz he/him]

5 hours ago, Confused said:

This week's limerick summarizing the released chapters:

Navani and Dal talk to Wit

About searching the SR a bit.

While Shallan and her crew

Track the Ghostbloods back to

The perp, so that Mraize then can blow it.

To their fans, my apologies for not mentioning Rlain and Renarin. Only so much can fit into a limerick... Regards! C.

P.S. - Does anyone know how to single-space lines? I prefer the limericks to be single-spaced. Thanks! 

Does
not
hitting
shift
return
avoid
linespacing?

[Wanguu He/Him]

I saw somewhere in this thread (can't find it now, oops) a discussion about what would happen to Dalinar and Navani's bodies with their minds being stuck in the SR. Assuming their bodies aren't completely blown up, I think towerlight would heal them. We know that unconscious radiants can still breathe in light to heal (kaladin after being strung up), so I believe that their bodies would just heal, and they will remain in a coma until they come back. The spiritual realm seems to be weird and we know you can still have a connection to things in the physical realm while you're there (Kaladin's Tien vision), so the bondsmiths will probably still be attached to their bodies.

[teknopathetic he/him]

Coming back to the idea that Tanavast was no longer Honour at some point AND that "The Almighty" used to refer to Adonalsium before Roshar forgot it's past
 

Quote

atheistcanuck

The Almighty’s original name was Tanavast, yes/no?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes and no. The concept of the “Almighty” in Roshar has a lot of meanings, many of them wrong.

atheistcanuck

But the person who held the Shard Honor was originally named Tanavast?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You wiggled it out of me. That was the name of the original holder of the Shard Honor.

Seems one could take this as a clue that maybe Tanavast stepped down and that "The Almighty" has changed in meaning in the past few thousand years. This linguistic slide in meaning makes sense historically too. Back in the day, I think people were more aware of where the shards came from and what Adonalsium was considering people actually spoke with Honour and Odium on the daily. Nowadays, vorinism has conflated The Almighty with Honour. But maybe "Nohadon" was referring to a more historical Almighty. 

Edited November 22, 2024 by teknopathetic

[Subvisual Haze]

On 11/19/2024 at 7:14 AM, Child of Hodor said:

I don't think he's Tanavast though. Nohadon was around and seemed to play a role in the founding of the Knight's Radiant and Tanavast said he had nothing to do with it and was surprised by their creation. 

Now we could say he's lying or from a "certain point of view"-ing it, but I just don't think so. I think Nohadan was just a guy doing his best who wrote a book. A king, but not a god. If abdication comes into play in this book it will probably be one of the current vessels who does it. 

I think this is more referring to the spren granting unexpected powers to mortals being beyond Tanavast's direct action.  I think the important clue here is that Nohadon refers to "Surgebinders" existing in his time.

Basically the spren created surgebinders.  Nohadon (who may have been Tanavast slumming as a mortal) gave moral structure to the orders (probably this is when the oaths entered the process).  Unorganized surgebinders vs. Knights Radiant orders.

And also maybe Ishar played a part in this process?

[+Child of Hodor]

So is the idea that Tanavast quit being Honor to be Nohadon and then as Nohadon he quit being king too? What a loser. Just unreliable really. Then he went back to being Honor in time for Rayse to kill him? 

[+Bzhydack he/him]

On 11/20/2024 at 10:19 PM, MPHRD said:

Anyone think Iyatil might have used a speed bubble?

More likely it will be F- Steel. And probably not very large amount, because she was cought with Lashing.

Also, I like theory about Shallan being influenced by emotional manipulation - and dont need to be Allomancy. We still dont know powers granted to Mraize by his Aviar.

And speaking about Aviars... You noticed that Parrot - Aviar dispeares? Maybe indeed it was not Aviar, but Kandra?

Edited November 23, 2024 by Bzhydack