Master Silver Posted November 23, 2024 Posted November 23, 2024 So, I am unsure if this has been asked or mentioned. But with the way the last chapter ended. If Dalinar and Navani's bodies got thrown into the spiritual realm, is it possible that their spren treat that like them dying? If the If their is nothing tying them to the physical realm or the cognitive realm, how is that different than being dead, other than the fact that they can come back. A normal Knight Radiant that dies goes to the spiritual realm, but their ties to the physical and cognitive realm cease. So, the only thing I can think of tat makes this different, is that Dalinar and Navani still have living bodies. 1
Ewery1 Posted November 23, 2024 Posted November 23, 2024 6 hours ago, Master Silver said: So, I am unsure if this has been asked or mentioned. But with the way the last chapter ended. If Dalinar and Navani's bodies got thrown into the spiritual realm, is it possible that their spren treat that like them dying? If the If their is nothing tying them to the physical realm or the cognitive realm, how is that different than being dead, other than the fact that they can come back. A normal Knight Radiant that dies goes to the spiritual realm, but their ties to the physical and cognitive realm cease. So, the only thing I can think of tat makes this different, is that Dalinar and Navani still have living bodies. Dead people don’t go to the spiritual realm, they go Beyond (or nowhere). The spiritual realm is where living souls (spiritwebs) are. 1
RedBlue Posted November 23, 2024 Posted November 23, 2024 6 hours ago, Master Silver said: If Dalinar and Navani's bodies got thrown into the spiritual realm, is it possible that their spren treat that like them dying? If the If their is nothing tying them to the physical realm or the cognitive realm, how is that different than being dead, other than the fact that they can come back. A normal Knight Radiant that dies goes to the spiritual realm, but their ties to the physical and cognitive realm cease. I don’t think that’s how it works. Every dead-dead character in the cosmere goes to ‘the Beyond,’ and no longer exists as a person in the cosmere. It’s ambiguous whether the Beyond is an actual afterlife or if it’s just nothing. A sort of echo of the person can still be found in the Spiritual Realm, but it’s not them — it’s more like a memory or a recording. Navani and Dalinar getting physically thrown into the Spiritual Realm is very weird, but it’s distinct from death. They still have physical bodies, Connections to the Physical Realm, and they’re still very much alive. 2
dvoraen Posted November 24, 2024 Posted November 24, 2024 So I want to get into the mechanics of why I'm in the camp of "the perpendicularity collapse sucked people in." The primary argument has to do with Navani's lecture and her RoW POVs that involve fabrial mechanics, specifically the interaction between Investiture and the gemstones. Quote Rhythm of War, Chapter 5 (epigraph) If the Stormlight in a gemstone is withdrawn quickly enough, a nearby spren can be sucked into the gemstone. This is caused by a similar effect to a pressure differential, created by the sudden withdrawl of Stormlight... Emphasis mine. Here, we have a perpendicularity where some of the Investiture is "withdrawn" suddenly (to say nothing of the explosive reaction). In this case, a small(?) amount of anti-Stormlight came into contact with it, generating a reaction that effectively destroys ("removes") some of the Investiture involved, "suddenly". So I figure that what we have here is the "Investiture differential" used in creating modern Rosharan fabrials. But also, consider this from Navani's experiments as further evidence: Quote Rhythm of War, Chapter 69 In fabrial science, you captured a spren by creating a gemstone with a kind of vacuum in it -- you drew out the Stormlight, leaving a sphere with a void or suction inside. It would then pull in a nearby spren, which was made of Light. It was like any pressure differential. ... but when she got the Voidlight to stream out toward the side of the table -- theoretically creating an active pressure differential in that diamond ... The key point is that some of the Voidlight remained in the diamond (Navani was trying to combine the two lights, remember) yet an active pressure differential theoretically existed on account of an amount of it transferring out. In other words, it theoretically doesn't require the complete removal of the Investiture to cause the effect. And this is why a little anti-Light eradicating a portion of the Investiture within the "gemstone"/perpendicularity is going to cause people to get sucked into the Spiritual Realm, as Dalinar and Navani's Intent effectively set the destination. 10
Zea mays Posted November 24, 2024 Posted November 24, 2024 I recall that Dalinar still has one more connected being that could be deployed to look for him - Gallant the rhyshadium. Adolin keeps reminding the readers that the horse still exists, and we just saw him float happily in shadesmar amongst glorious ephemeral equispren. What about the spiritual realm? Horses are probably superbeings in the spiritual realm. 7
BinarySecond Posted November 25, 2024 Author Posted November 25, 2024 I've just remembered the opening of The Stormlight Archive where Jezrien says they can put down the burden the picked up willingly; a scenario in which people did walk away but it caused some problems because it wasn't set up to allow them to do it. 1
+robardin he/him Posted November 25, 2024 Posted November 25, 2024 4 hours ago, BinarySecond said: I've just remembered the opening of The Stormlight Archive where Jezrien says they can put down the burden the picked up willingly; a scenario in which people did walk away but it caused some problems because it wasn't set up to allow them to do it. "Wasn't set up to allow them to do it" is putting it mildly. We still don't know the actual context and terms of the Oathpact: why was it necessary to have cycles of Desolations, and what was supposed to be the end game based on the knowledge/rules they knew about going into it. I mean, who would sign up for a mission statement like, "to defend mankind from Dawnsinger retribution, but it goes on and on for centuries, for millennia, until you go mad (cough from torture cough) and then there's an Everstorm and Final Desolation and something something"? When Jezrien spoke of putting down a burden they had willingly taken up, I read it as meaning from a moral or ethical perspective. Apparently even he didn't foresee an "end game" to the cycle of Desolations, or they should have been trying to engineer that for a while now, rather than fighting, dying, getting tortured, etc., until walking away... Even though Ishar seems to have known about the "contest of champions" option, as Crazy Ishar proclaims himself ready to fight Dalinar as Odium's champion when meeting him in RoW. Anyway, one thing is for sure: they were all beings who long ago had passed the point of "putting down the burden" to then resume a normal human life. They'd lived far past a mortal lifespan already, had died innumerable times, and were Cognitive Shadows with mechanisms binding them to the Physical Realm that were still in effect even if they forswore their Honorblades (otherwise they'd all have died within 100 years or less after Aharietiam). I just had a thought: what if one possible "victory condition" had been to kill all the Fused present on Roshar so "the board is clear" without losing a single Herald? But having just Taln (the one who'd never broken) sent to Braize was the closest they ever got, and they settled on a "suspended game" rather than yet another attempt at a perfect clearing of the board. 1
BinarySecond Posted November 25, 2024 Author Posted November 25, 2024 (edited) Were the desolations an intended consequence? I always thought it was a loophole exploited by the agents of Odium. As long as the heralds are on braize they seal the fused away; but I guess the reincarnation mechanic is unlikely to be a fluke so I guess there must have been something to it. Edited November 25, 2024 by BinarySecond
CognitiveShadow he/him Posted November 25, 2024 Posted November 25, 2024 4 minutes ago, BinarySecond said: Were the desolations an inteded consequence? I always thought it was a loophole exploited by the agents of Odium. As long as the heralds are on braize they seal the fused away; but I guess the reincarnation mechanic is unlikely to be a fluke so I guess there must have been something to it. I've wondered if this was intentionally set up by Honor and Cultivation (but kept secret from the Heralds and others. I could see them deciding that they needed to sacrifice their own little slice of the cosmere in order to keep Odium from rampaging out and destroying others. They could have used Roshar as a trap to keep him contained, and set up the cycles of desolations to keep him preoccupied but with little hope of an escape. Perhaps that is what opened up Honor to Odium's attack eventually? The dishonesty and the way he was sacrificing others in brutal destructive wars just to keep Odium trapped there... which in turn would lead to more and more war/destruction... Cultivation probably wouldn't be impacted, but Honor would likely be conflicting with his shard's intent. 1
+robardin he/him Posted November 25, 2024 Posted November 25, 2024 8 minutes ago, BinarySecond said: Were the desolations an inteded consequence? I always thought it was a loophole exploited by the agents of Odium. As long as the heralds are on braize they seal the fused away; but I guess the reincarnation mechanic is unlikely to be a fluke so I guess there must have been something to it. Now that is an interesting thought. What if "Fused are locked away on Braize as long as you all stay there with them" was all they were told? "Hmm. OK." Then, after the first time through: picture several hundred ;(?) Fused and 10 Heralds sitting around staring at each other with hostility on Braize. Jezrien: Well, I guess I'll start. Hi, my name is Jezrien. Since we'll all be here for a long while, probably forever, let's try to move past our -- Lezian: Shut up, Herald of humans! This isn't over! Jezrien: But of course it is. We are all here on Braize now, after dying on Roshar, and we can't get killed here, not as we are. Raboniel: Oh? But if we all got sent here from Roshar when we got killed there, and are now sealed here by you guys killing yourselves there to also all come here... Why would we not go back to Roshar if we kill you here? Ishar: But we have no physical forms here! We are all Cognitive Shadows! Raboniel: But we can still FEEL pain, from the idea of it. Let's see what happens if you get hurt ENOUGH! Lezian: GET 'EM!! And I call dibs on noogie-ing that Jezrien guy until he cries Uncle!
BinarySecond Posted November 25, 2024 Author Posted November 25, 2024 3 minutes ago, robardin said: Now that is an interesting thought. What if "Fused are locked away on Braize as long as you all stay there with them" was all they were told? "Hmm. OK." Then, after the first time through: picture several hundred ;(?) Fused and 10 Heralds sitting around staring at each other with hostility on Braize. Jezrien: Well, I guess I'll start. Hi, my name is Jezrien. Since we'll all be here for a long while, probably forever, let's try to move past our -- Lezian: Shut up, Herald of humans! This isn't over! Jezrien: But of course it is. We are all here on Braize now, after dying on Roshar, and we can't get killed here, not as we are. Raboniel: Oh? But if we all got sent here from Roshar when we got killed there, and are now sealed here by you guys killing yourselves there to also all come here... Why would we not go back to Roshar if we kill you here? Ishar: But we have no physical forms here! We are all Cognitive Shadows! Raboniel: But we can still FEEL pain, from the idea of it. Let's see what happens if you get hurt ENOUGH! Lezian: GET 'EM!! And I call dibs on noogie-ing that Jezrien guy until he cries Uncle! I can definitely believe that Rabonial pioneered Herald torture.
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