Chapters 29 and 30

[RedBlue]

It would be funny if Lift’s red chicken is found hanging out in a super obvious place in the Tower, and when asked, the Sibling says “I told you there were no chickens matching your description. That’s not a chicken. It’s a parrot.”

[OoklaApologist She/her]

8 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

How does that connect to moving Stormlight in a gem away from Roshar?

Another point of view, it doesn’t. Finding BAM could be the goal of Mrazie and co., while moving stormlight, and possibly other investitures, and maybe even invested entities, is the goal of Kelsier when incorporating the Rosharan branch

8 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

There seem to be a lot of warnings about the dangers of too much investiture becoming self-aware. Like a shard that is left alone too long and gains sentience.... is this foreshadowing what might happen at the end of the book? Or is it possible that when they try to access Honor's power it is too late and it already has too 'personified' too much (for lack of a better term)?

Theory time: Could you kill a being like that? Imagine if Dalinar or someone else attempts to ascend, the fate of Roshar rests on his shoulders, and Honor turns out to be sentient. Can you kill to protect? Should you kill a being like that? 
 

Alternatively, what if the vessel of Honor is already taken, be it by an old god or the Stormfather himself? What would happen then? 

[Sedside she/her]

4 hours ago, The Stick said:

They have someone called Erinor who can speak to stones. I guess that means there is another Willshaper.

He is a Stoneward, Darcira's husband. Ch. 28:

Quote

Stone in a hole maybe eight feet across poured down, as if it had suddenly become mud. It splashed on the floor of the cavern—missing the podium by inches and touching none of the people—then instantly hardened. Through that hole came a dozen Windrunners one after another—the last carrying Erinor, Darcira’s husband, a Stoneward. That explained the meltiness.

 

4 hours ago, The Stick said:

I feel so bad for Gavinor. However, I think Lift is making some progress towards healing him, and he could be the cause of her next Oath.

That would be great. I agree with you about child champion theory being unlikely, and Gav being useful for Lift's progression in her oaths would explain this scene, other than "Brandon is mentioning every popular theory in preview chapters just to confuse us".

[Moirne she/her]

Also, a minor plot point but… anyone know what animal this references? I couldn’t think of any large Scadrian fauna, so maybe it’s something from the south.

Quote

“No, really,” Darcira said. “I don’t think this is hogshide. It’s something else. Probably from… you know…”

Right. She was wearing the carcass of a beast from some other planet, its skin smoother and thicker than that of a hog. 

 

[Nesh he/him]

3 minutes ago, Moirne said:

Also, a minor plot point but… anyone know what animal this references? I couldn’t think of any large Scadrian fauna, so maybe it’s something from the south.

 

It's probably just normal cow leather.

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

I love loved Lift's chapter. Her interactions with the Sibling and Wyndle were *chefs kiss* I liked seeing her further character progression along the lines of her oaths, with her work with Gavinor as well as her remembering that Wyndle has feelings too and making him feel included. I have to think the secret handshake is going to come up at an important point later. But I gotta say this - I have been real nervous every time Gav comes onscreen, and her convo with him about sometimes having to break the rules did NOT help that feeling. I am seriously concerned that Gavinor’s storyline is going to wreck me.

Renarin and Rlain chapter was so sweet, and Renarin tearing up was touching. More please. For the visions, they kinda skipped past the Dalinar one like oh we already have seen that, but I bet it's going to be more important and this assumption is causing them to miss something. Also do we know the Truthwatcher shardplate spren? Is is Awespren?

Quote

“Mmm…” Pattern said, moving onto her clothing. “I am very glad you did not get killed while I was not here. I should like to be there when you die. It is a thing friends do for friends.”

Between this, and her antilight worry earlier and Patterns insistence from beginning that she would kill him... maybe Pattern's storyline is the one that will wreck me not just Gavinor’s. 

Edited November 12, 2024 by Dreamwa1ker

[duladen he/him]

3 hours ago, Moirne said:

Also, a minor plot point but… anyone know what animal this references? I couldn’t think of any large Scadrian fauna, so maybe it’s something from the south.

 

Probably Koloss

More seriously: isn’t there a WOB about African animals in the Roughs? Maybe it’s elephant or rhino hide.

 

 

 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

8 hours ago, KelsierApologist said:

Another point of view, it doesn’t. Finding BAM could be the goal of Mrazie and co., while moving stormlight, and possibly other investitures, and maybe even invested entities, is the goal of Kelsier when incorporating the Rosharan branch

She removes the need to transport Investiture, if she can supply voidlight to somebody on another world.

[BinarySecond]

15 hours ago, The Stick said:

Panel 4: Obviously Ishar calls the Heralds out of retirement. How he contacts Chana and Kalak is beyond me. I was thinking Honorblades finding Honorblades, but that won't work if they don't have them. Either Szeth is not there, or a Herald isn't. I have no idea which one.

Jezrien is dead. (I made the same error)

[Wanguu He/Him]

20 hours ago, Isilel said:

Also, she can actually enter Shadesmar physically, despite not having Transportation?! That’s new.

This made me thing that there's more to the surge of transportation than simply just going between the cognitive / physical, otherwise it would be weird to just give a character a third surge. The only other thing I could think of is that Shallan can go into the cognitive, but not back.

[Ninth of the Night]

18 minutes ago, Wanguu said:

The only other thing I could think of is that Shallan can go into the cognitive, but not back.

That's true for anyone using Teleportation (as of now). They can fully enter Shadesmar but can't get back out without a perpendicularity.

Shallan entering the Cognitive Realm physically isn't new, it was covered somewhat in the first book. That's what initially led Jasnah to believe Shallan was a fellow Elsecaller. And she in turn warned Shallan against fully transferring herself to Shadesmar since it's very difficult to then return to the Physical Realm.

[Kfish]

I'm really getting thrown off by BAM showing up suddenly like this. It makes sense...except for what Mraize said about her being captured. Did Odium being replaced somehow enable BAM to "leak" out of her prison like Ruin did on Scadrial?  

 

Either way, between BAM showing up like this and all the talk about the old gods it feels like we need an explanation as to why it didn't happen in previous books otherwise it just feels like we should have been getting more foreshadowing in book 3 and 4 instead of all the hamfisted work to catch up in WaT.

[Wanguu He/Him]

41 minutes ago, Ninth of the Night said:

That's true for anyone using Teleportation (as of now). They can fully enter Shadesmar but can't get back out without a perpendicularity.

 

Didn't Jasnah return in the middle of nowhere? Was it a perpindicularity, or just a spot where the cognitive and physical realm are in the same spot?

If Shallan can go into the physical realm, then what is the point of transportation??

[The Sovereign]

12 minutes ago, Wanguu said:

If Shallan can go into the physical realm, then what is the point of transportation??

I'm sure there is more to it, but bringing others is likely the first major difference. 

Edited November 12, 2024 by The Sovereign

[Ninth of the Night]

Shallan's ability to transfer is unique to her, not something Lightweavers can do. She implied in the recent chapter that it could be some quirk of her double bond. She also has a weird relationship with the Cognitive, we still don't have all the answers.

Potentially there's some... Child of a Herald shenanigans going on with her. We shall see!

[The Sovereign]

8 minutes ago, Ninth of the Night said:

Shallan's ability to transfer is unique to her, not something Lightweavers can do. She implied in the recent chapter that it could be some quirk of her double bond. She also has a weird relationship with the Cognitive, we still don't have all the answers.

Potentially there's some... Child of a Herald shenanigans going on with her. We shall see!

All Radiants have some Connection to the Cognitive Realm due to the Nahel Bond itself; Lightweavers have a more of a Connection due to their Transformation Surge, Willshapers have an even stronger Connection because of their Transportation Surge, Elscallers have the strongest Connection because of their access to both Transformation and Transportation. Shallan essentially has a double Connection via double access to Transformation (think of Vin's Bronze Allomancy when she was Spiked), I suspect it is about equal to the Connection of a Willshaper.

While I fully agree with the Shallan is Chanarach's Daughter theory, I do not think that is involved in what is happening here outside of potentially making her a more appealing candidate for a Spren to bond with in the first place.

Edited November 12, 2024 by The Sovereign

[Necessary Eagle she/her]

On 11/11/2024 at 6:01 PM, Isilel said:

 

Eh, some Vedens also have it. To look like a Horneater one needs to have an appropriately large frame, noticeably larger than that of an average Alethi - nobody is mistaking Shallan for one, for example. But maybe Chana qualifies, we'll see.

Remember, it's Rlain speaking. He's probably better at telling humans apart than most listeners, but I'd give him a pass if he got a few things mixed up.

[teknopathetic he/him]

6 hours ago, Kfish said:

I'm really getting thrown off by BAM showing up suddenly like this. It makes sense...except for what Mraize said about her being captured. Did Odium being replaced somehow enable BAM to "leak" out of her prison like Ruin did on Scadrial?  

 

Either way, between BAM showing up like this and all the talk about the old gods it feels like we need an explanation as to why it didn't happen in previous books otherwise it just feels like we should have been getting more foreshadowing in book 3 and 4 instead of all the hamfisted work to catch up in WaT.

I think we have been given a semi-explanation in that the Odium vessel changed. Odium was repressing the Wind’s ability to speak, so we know that sort of thing is possible and worth doing from Odium’s perspective. 
 

Since Ba Ado Mishram tried to be her own mini god, I think it’s plausible that Odium could have been suppressing her as well (he didn’t want a rival).  

Edited November 13, 2024 by teknopathetic

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

34 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

I think we have been given a semi-explanation in that the Odium vessel changed. Odium was repressing the Wind’s ability to speak, so we know that sort of thing is possible and worth doing from Odium’s perspective. 
 

Since Ba Ado Mishram tried to be her own mini god, I think it’s plausible that Odium could have been suppressing her as well (he didn’t want a rival).  

I like this explanation a lot. I also think that there could be some sort of Fortune and Intent going on here. Shallan's double bond appears to also have given her a way to access Fortune and she has been able to do that with her drawings. I find this explanation by Kelek to be pretty useful on this topic. 

Quote

“Do you often do this?” he asked.

“Sketch people?” she said, then blushed. “Yes, I kind of do it all the time. When I’m feeling like myself, at least.”

“Not simply sketching, child. Do you often draw upon Fortune? Glimpse someone’s possible selves, and pull one forth… touch, in some small way, what could have been. What might still be…” He glanced to her, and must have seen the utter confusion in her eyes, as he sighed. “Is this a skill commonly employed by Lightweavers during your time?”

“Not that I know of,” she said. “But I don’t exactly understand what you’re saying.”

He glanced toward Pattern and Testament. “Two spren. Of course… you’ve bonded two. Strange things happen when the Nahel bond is imbricated. There were rules against it once, I believe. How long have you had them both?”

“For some time,” she said, “though I didn’t know it—didn’t remember it—until recently.”

“And how often,” he asked, holding up the sheet, “do you glimpse into the Spiritual Realm, then manifest it in your art?”

“I…” She thought back to pictures she’d done, like one found in the pocket of a dead man. Like sketches of the Unmade lurking in Urithiru… or faces turning up in her art without her intending to draw them. She began to feel like a fool for objecting so quickly to someone who clearly knew far more about these things than she did.

“It might happen now and then,” she said. “There was an Unmade in Urithiru, and it showed up in my art. Now these faces…” She turned one toward him.

He nodded. “Because you’ve been thinking about traveling to the Spiritual Realm and finding Ba-Ado-Mishram.”

“That’s her?”

“One interpretation of her, yes,” he said. “If you were someone else, I would assume you had seen some ancient art and were unconsciously influenced by it. For you…” He shrugged. “Fortune can do unthought, fantodic things.”

I wonder if once Shallan started glimpsing into the spiritual realm and seeking BAM, perhaps BAM was able to make a connection to her and so she keeps popping up here and there?

6 hours ago, The Sovereign said:

All Radiants have some Connection to the Cognitive Realm due to the Nahel Bond itself; Lightweavers have a more of a Connection due to their Transformation Surge, Willshapers have an even stronger Connection because of their Transportation Surge, Elscallers have the strongest Connection because of their access to both Transformation and Transportation. Shallan essentially has a double Connection via double access to Transformation (think of Vin's Bronze Allomancy when she was Spiked), I suspect it is about equal to the Connection of a Willshaper.

I like the example of Vin's earring/spike giving her an extra boost of an ability. I also like how she explained that since she has two bonds, they are both pulling on her. I think this sort of "gravitation" as I think about it would make sense. Spren are pulled into the physical realm by their bond with a human, but when two spren are pulling on the human it could be enough to give them access to enter the cognitive realm at will.

Quote

She almost tried pulling herself all the way into Shadesmar, something she wasn’t supposed to be able to do with her powers—but which she’d done before regardless. Two bonds. Two spren. Storms, that explained some curious events in her past; instead of her pulling them into her realm, they pulled her somewhat into theirs.

The double bond also appears to have given her access to glimpse the spiritual realm and draw upon Fortune, but I suspect that is more of a function of her having two cryptics specifically, whereas her ability to enter the cognitive realm might be more related to her having two bonds in general. Would a windrunner with two bonded honorspren be able to enter the cognitive realm? My thoughts based on what we know so far is yes, but that's just a theory.

[teknopathetic he/him]

Makes you wonder what Dalinar could do if he also bonded another high-level spren like the Sibling, The Nightwatcher, or an old god like The Wind. 

Edited November 13, 2024 by teknopathetic

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

25 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Makes you wonder what Dalinar could do if he also bonded the Sibling, The Nigjtwatcher, or an old god like The Wind. 

Seriously though, it really does feel like surgebinding gets super powerful or at least has the potential for that. 
 

Doesn’t Odium talk about how he chose this place so he could prepare the best warriors for his conquest of the rest of the cosmere? Perhaps this kind of stuff has to do with why?

[Confused]

First, this week’s limerick summary:

Shallan seems unhurt from the Light bolt,

While Lift helps Gav back from his heart jolt.

Rlain and Ren bond

And look far beyond

The shattered glass futures of Ren’s vault.

Let’s talk Renarin as Odium. Most of the pictures in Renarin’s vision show the Everstorm trailing him while he sits on a throne wearing Singer clothing. People here dismiss the idea Renarin will hold Odium. They state two objections: The Intent doesn’t fit and Renarin’s bonded to Glys, an enlightened mistspren. Some also think Renarin is destined to rule Alethkar.

On Intent: Odium is the Broken One, the Divided One. The Shard’s Vessel cannot think and feel simultaneously. The inability to communicate emotion describes autism. Renarin IMO is autistic. Odium seems a natural fit for Renarin. Now, when he thinks about a windows meaning, he’s uncertain. But when he touches a window, he feels its meaning, whether peace or malice.

His relationship with Rlain will teach Renarin more about his feelings. The possibility Dalinar and Navani might Ascend together to jointly hold Honor might apply equally to Rlain and Renarin. Maybe they’ll Ascend together and share Odium. (I don’t think so, but who knows.)

I’m not sure why the Glys bond should affect Renarin’s Ascension. This is different from the WoB that says a true spren cannot Ascend as the same Shard’s Vessel, since that would simply create a self-aware Shard. But that’s not this situation. Here, Renarin would be the Vessel. If he chooses, his mind could bond to anything, including an enlightened spren that’s partly Cultivation and Honor. I don’t see the problem.

FWIW, I sometimes wonder if Brandon believes what he writes politically and morally or whether his business savvy directs him to write what his audience wants to read. Brandon is without question the greatest businessman I’m aware of who also writes books. He markets incessantly. He is diligent, writing 2,000 words a day. He possesses that rarest and most valuable asset – the ability to manage his time efficiently and productively. He organizes and manages a large staff. He expands his empire into movies. The man definitely gets it business-wise. So I wonder...

The Old Gods continue to fascinate me. My predictions about them are based on Dalinar’s comment that something “beyond Honor” calls to him. I’m waiting for someone to suggest what that something might be. I tout Roshar itself. Now we discover Roshar has swells and currents that help Truthwatchers see the future! That supports my theory that Dalinar as Roshar’s Bondsmith will wield all 16 Investitures without regard to Intent. Whoever bonds with Roshar will see that future.

That’s all for now! C.

[frozndevl]

On 11/11/2024 at 9:17 AM, CognitiveShadow said:

There seem to be a lot of warnings about the dangers of too much investiture becoming self-aware. Like a shard that is left alone too long and gains sentience.... is this foreshadowing what might happen at the end of the book? Or is it possible that when they try to access Honor's power it is too late and it already has too 'personified' too much (for lack of a better term)?

I had this same thought today about Honors power sitting for too long. I took it a step further that perhaps Dalinar defeats Odium, but Honors power is gaining sentience, so Dalinar thinks a guided War (since Odium is also now without vessel) is better than the alternative.

[RedBlue]

Quote

 

Her powers had a strange relationship with Shadesmar. She’d always had trouble with this, from the first time she’d experimented in Kharbranth.

Or… no… that hadn’t been the first time…

Shallan begins to remember the first time her powers pulled her into Shadesmar, before the incident in WoK, but cuts off the thought (presumably because of associated trauma). That ‘first time’ has to have been before she bonded Pattern.

If she was weird about Shadesmar prior to having two spren, there must be some other explanation. I think the idea of the double bond giving her Shadesmar access is a misdirect.

[logicless.bt]

47 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

Shallan begins to remember the first time her powers pulled her into Shadesmar, before the incident in WoK, but cuts off the thought (presumably because of associated trauma). That ‘first time’ has to have been before she bonded Pattern.

If she was weird about Shadesmar prior to having two spren, there must be some other explanation. I think the idea of the double bond giving her Shadesmar access is a misdirect.

Hard agree with this. The fact that she's STILL cutting thoughts off even though it's overtly dealing with the already-revealed testament makes me think it's foreshadowing the final secret here.