Chapters 25 and 26

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

Well, regardless on how the next chapters go for Shallan, it seems that the Rosharan Ghostbloods have been dealt a pretty substantial blow, as many of their members have just been exposed to the Radiants along with some details of their plan, even better is that Shallan now knows about the dissent among their ranks, she could use that.

Shallan needs leverage against the Ghostbloods, and proof of their treachery against their own would make for some decent leverage. Kelsier would never appreciate them going behind his back, especially with this whole 'Use BAM to control the Shards' plan. The Scadrian Branch made it clear in TLM that they need to be sneaky and subtle and not draw too much attention to themselves otherwise more powerful organizations could crush them. Meanwhile mister "Most powerful organization in the Cosmere" and his too ambitious teacher are trying to secure a way to rock the boat until it tips over.

They really are running amok, as their efforts have led to them making an enemy of the Radiants, losing easy access to the Oathgates, drawing scrutiny to their organization as a whole and putting their own goals ahead of Kelsier's.

In the grand scheme of things, Mraize and Iyatil seem to have really screwed the Ghostbloods over, at least when it comes to their efforts on Roshar. 

[Confused]

Random observations in order. (Is that oxymoronic?) Also, lots of wide-ranging speculation.

I like that the Chapter 25 epigraph talks about the "sacred right of freedom of movement." That's what Odium, Heralds, Radiants [?], Fused, Ghostbloods, et al. on Roshar all seem to want. 

Mraize might still be teaching Shallan. Does he know she's there when he says,

Quote

“I enjoy purposeful danger, Icy Tongue,” Mraize said... “Danger with value and lessons. Foolhardy danger, without purpose, is a waste. A whorehouse for the emotions.”

Does Mraize warn Shallan her risk should justify her reward? The chapter is named "Purposeful Danger." Is Shallan still Mraize's apprentice? This scene explicitly harkens back to Shallan's first meeting with Mraize and the Ghostbloods. It reminds me how (IMO) he writes SLA 1-5 as a ketek, with the early books foreshadowing the events of the later books.

Another example I recently found. Fleet dies while running himself, exhausted, to his death. On Kaladin's first Bridge Four run, only his will keeps him going: "He just kept running. And running." (WoK Chapter 6, "Bridge Four," Kindle p. 103.)

When Shallan first felt panic and then an "icy chill on the nape of her neck," Iyatil was watching her. Did Iyatil use Allomancy to augment Shallan's emotions? An early test that Shallan's outward stoicism passed? Did dapper, self-disciplined Mraize deliberately tuck his pant leg in his sock - knowing Shallan would notice, find it amusing, and be calmed? (IIRC, my unsupported belief has been disproved, but I can't put aside the idea that seamed-face Mraize is a Sleepless. Maybe he's the one sent to watch over the "liar" from WoK's back cover, who is Shallan. To me, he's always seemed protective of Shallan. Oh, well...)

More foreshadowing: Mraize's discussion of the democratizing effect of modern warfare. With technological advances like the cross-bow, any farmer can kill a king. The hint here, I suspect, is that any mundane warrior armed with a fabrial can kill even an Invested being. Mraize cautions Chain and his audience (Shallan?) to open themselves to "the world that is" rather than to rely on past wisdom. If nothing else, Mraize has shown himself to be a Pragmatist in the William James philosophical sense.

To elaborate on my earlier post in this thread, I think the Stormfather is the "very special contact," the "new recruit." He is privy to every thought Dalinar has in real time. As the holder of Tanavast's cognitive shadow and the largest known Honor Splinter, the Stormfather has a personal interest in Dalinar's failure. Dalinar's Ascension as Honor will destroy Tanavast except as a Dalinar memory, give Dalinar power over the Stormfather, and expose to Dalinar the truth of Tanavast and the Stormfather's actions. Maybe it's Sja-anat, but she's not "new."

The SF will know exactly when and where Dalinar will open his perpendicularity. If Iyatil and Mraize can get to Shadesmar, they should be able to hitch a ride into the Spiritual Realm. Mraize is confident Dalinar will help lead them to BAM. After all, he has Shallan as his hostage...

Dalinar:

Quote

I feel that something has been guiding me all this time. Something I can’t explain, something beyond Honor. I know someone has to step up and do this. The contest isn’t enough. There’s more, and I think I’m the only one who can find out what it is. I spent a great deal of time searching for how to become a stronger Bondsmith, and I think that was a step toward a greater truth of what I actually need to become.”

The hero expresses hope and resolve...for something beyond Honor? What the...?! Does he foresee Unity as the merger of multiple Shards? Honor and Odium are obvious choices, but I don't get the sense Dalinar intends to stop there. He will share Taravangian's goal of "uniting" the cosmere. I still think as Honor he will Bind the Divided One's incapacity to think and feel simultaneously. Dalinar as Honor might welcome a healed TOdium as an ally. 

But...there's that ketek thing again. We've seen this story before, where Dalinar's misappraisal of Sadeas almost got him and Adolin killed. IMO, Dal will heal Odium, but Taravangian must die. Dalinar won't lead Odium's armies as a Fused, he will lead them as Unity. 

Now, what has been "guiding me all this time...beyond Honor"? What is the "something" that points him in the Unity direction? Following is some free-styling speculation:

What if Roshar the planet is the seed for "Adonalsium's" rebirth? Adonalsium (an anagram for "A mind, a soul") creator of the cosmere is dead and that person will not be resurrected. I mean someone who, like Adonalsium, can wield the power of all 16 Shards. "Unity."

Hoid says Adonalsium left something of himself on Roshar. Brandon says its special among planets. I've previously theorized Roshar is a living planet. Its three ancient gods of Stone, Wind, and Night represent birth, growth, and death. I now add this thought: that those gods are all manifestations of the mind of Roshar. That mind can manipulate all of Roshar's Investitures, since it is Roshar. Maybe Dalinar will bond Roshar itself and also become the Vessel for Honor and Odium. Maybe he will learn the Intents of all the Shards and how to use their Investitures. Maybe his bond roots him on Roshar, yet he'll still be able to project power throughout the cosmere. Dalinar will defeat the other Vessels because of his knowledge of them. Maybe...

FWIW, Navani has had good practice mothering the Sibling. Might she Ascend to Cultivation when Dalinar Ascends to Honor? Tanavast and Koravellium Avast in romantic rebirth? Ketek...

The Chapter 26 Epigraph, following, reads like Jezrien might have said it. The King of Heralds abandons the Oathpact. This goes to the common speculation that Jezrien was Nohadon.

Quote

I continued on my way, contemplating dust and the nature of desertion. For I, as king, had walked away from my duties, and it was different for me. Had I not renounced a throne the Almighty had granted, and in so doing, undermined my very own words?  Was I abandoning that which was divinely given me?

Sja-anat's colloquy with Shallan includes some wonderful stuff:

Quote

Game, Shallan? I fight for survival. Odium will rip through anyone, anything, to get what he wishes. Thousands of years have proven he cares nothing for me or my children. Honor is a coward who always hated us. Destroyed us. Betrayed us. And all Cultivation does is watch.

I am on the side of preserving a world for my children. You should not fear “my side,” Shallan. You should embrace it. If there is room for my children, there will be room for yours.

I suggested a few weeks ago Shallan might be pregnant. But some posters' twins suggestion seems too Dune-like. Would Brandon make that reference? If there are twins, we already know their names: Radiant and Veil!

Sometime soon, I may post a Rosharan "Magical History Tour." Sja-anat's comments fascinate me. She seems to predate the Shattering and the Shards' arrival on Roshar. The Shards didn't make her. She also sounds like the source of all Roshar's spren. Is she the "spren" from the Eila Stele? She tells us Odium "will rip through anyone...," confirmation that Odium Unmade her.

Honor hated spren? Does Sja-anat believe Honor might have better protected her and her children from Odium? She's mad at Cultivation for standing aside while the boys fought it out?

Iyatil now knows Sja-anat can't be trusted. SJA misleads her about Shallan's presence. What might that mean?

That's all (for now), folks! C.

[Ookla she/her]

8 minutes ago, Confused said:

If there are twins, we already know their names: Radiant and Veil!

I didn't know I needed this until now. It's SO unlikely, but it would be awesome! (Please Brandon please!)

[coolsnow7]

33 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

it seems that the Rosharan Ghostbloods have been dealt a pretty substantial blow

If Shallan doesn’t get out of that room of her own free will, all of this comes to nothing. 

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

I don’t know why you possibly think children= her personal prosperity. I mean, I get that she may not actually be pregnant now. But how does children become a metaphor for personal prosperity?

Posterity, not prosperity. Like her descendants.

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

Regardless of whether she should or shouldn’t she’s having sex and to my knowledge there’s no birth control on roshar so kids for her is an availability if not now, then later, assuming her husband lives to see her again

I agree she totally could be and I’m down for them to have kids soon. I’m just saying that the one line from Sja-Anat is nothing remotely close to clear confirmation. People were talking like it was an obvious signal but I don’t think that’s the case at all.

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

I agree that this could just be something like that. It doesn’t mean she’s literally pregnant however it does open up the possibility for it.

The possibility for it was never closed, though. It can easily happen, in just saying this one interaction doesn’t tell us anything. And I also think that wording by Asha-Anat was a very normal thing she would have said even if Shallan were definitely not pregnant.

[Rorzikel]

19 minutes ago, Confused said:

She tells us Odium "will rip through anyone...," confirmation that Odium Unmade her.

Honor hated spren? Does Sja-anat believe Honor might have better protected her and her children from Odium? She's mad at Cultivation for standing aside while the boys fought it out?

Game, Shallan? I fight for survival. Odium will rip through anyone, anything, to get what he wishes. Thousands of years have proven he cares nothing for me or my children. Honor is a coward who always hated us. Destroyed us. Betrayed us. And all Cultivation does is watch.

You know, what this implies to me is that Honor might have offered up the Not-Yet-Unmade to Odium as bait in the trapping plan. Being called a coward is one thing but claiming that Honor destroyed and betrayed the Unmade seems less an accusation of inaction than complicity in the Unmaking.

[coolsnow7]

28 minutes ago, Confused said:

Sja-anat's colloquy with Shallan includes some wonderful stuff:

I agree, and consistent with Odium’s indictment of the other Shards, the theme of this book may turn out to be “the dead good guys turn out to be extremely overrated” (see: Gavilar).

[StanLemon]

3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

You can’t be serious. Think about what you’re saying. We have been in lifts pov we know she is not the spy. And how would they recruit her? What could they possibly say to convince her? They could get is offer her food and I’m pretty sure she would just steal that and runoff.

 

Circumstantial evidence? What circumstantial evidence? you have nothing. 

Dude. I say in the first line that of the quote you used that I don't think it's likely. Calm down.

Secondly, we don't get a single perspective from Lift after she's captured by Mraize. At least that I recall, and the Coppermind doesn't list any perspectives from her after. So no, we don't know that she hasn't become a spy. There could be any number of ways he could tempt her, he's a manipulator after all. Maybe he knows she didn't want to grow up after spying on her for a year and offered a way to keep her from growing up. Maybe he tempted her with the excitement of spywork. Etc. 

Lift had been spying on the very conversation that Mraize had said they got tipped off by their "new recruit". Is it likely she's a spy? No. But that doesn't mean it's not a possibility. 

Edited October 29, 2024 by StanLemon

[skyopic]

10 hours ago, The Stick said:

Lastly, now we know it is Iyatil who wants BAM to control Shards. Can BAM control Honor or Odium???

Throwing an idea out there for the sake of it, not entirely sure if it's plausible: what if Iyatil is referencing "shards" not in the general sense, but two shards in particular- two shards that might be taking up a particularly large part of Kelsier's thoughts as he plots to protect his homeworld? Two shards that, though locked in an uneasy state of stasis now may well prove to be as dangerous to Scadrial's future as they were in its past (esp. given the prospect that Sazed fails to keep them in balance and becomes Discord)? 

If Iyatil is after BAM for the knowledge she has on how to control the power of a shard without assuming the shard's intent completely, then it makes sense that she would be keeping this from Kelsier. It sounds like something he might want to know more about after recognizing the limitations of holding Preservation in SH, but he likely has some reticence towards moving against Sazed directly (as exhibited in his conversation with Sazed at the end of TLM). Thus, she acts in a sort of "better to seek forgiveness than permission"-type way.

[logicless.bt]

3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

I don’t know why you possibly think children= her personal prosperity. I mean, I get that she may not actually be pregnant now. But how does children become a metaphor for personal prosperity?

I might be misunderstanding, but the guy you're replying to was referring to Shallan's "posterity," as in children, kin, and general legacy.

[Edit: page hadn't updated, it was already responded to. Sorry!]

 

I don't really have a horse in the pregnancy race, but I'm surprised it never occurred to me that we could see a "next generation" in the second half. Only Adolin and Shallan are really in a position to have kids, though. I guess if Syladin really does happen they could have some kind of kid relevant in the second half? I don't think Renarin and Rlain will magically produce offspring, but I have been dreading what Rlain meant when he said mateform was a "disaster" for him.

Edited October 29, 2024 by logicless.bt

[StanLemon]

3 minutes ago, logicless.bt said:

I don't really have a horse in the pregnancy race, but I'm surprised it never occurred to me that we could see a "next generation" in the second half. Only Adolin and Shallan are really in a position to have kids, though. I guess if Syladin really does happen they could have some kind of kid relevant in the second half? I don't think Renarin and Rlain will magically produce offspring, but I have been dreading what Rlain meant when he said mateform was a "disaster" for him.

Boy will everyone be surprised when we find out Jasnah is the pregnant one

[logicless.bt]

Well, I would definitely NOT expect that! Honestly, with the way Jasnah acts, I sometimes forget that's she's fairly young and put her closer to Navani's age

[teknopathetic he/him]

What if getting exposed was the Ghostbloods plan? It seems … so obvious that everyone was meeting there.

Maybe it didn’t go exactly as planned, but I’m having a hard time thinking the Ghostbloods would be this easy to catch. 

Edited October 29, 2024 by teknopathetic

[bmcclure7]

2 hours ago, logicless.bt said:

I might be misunderstanding, but the guy you're replying to was referring to Shallan's "posterity," as in children, kin, and general legacy.

[Edit: page hadn't updated, it was already responded to. Sorry!]

 

I don't really have a horse in the pregnancy race, but I'm surprised it never occurred to me that we could see a "next generation" in the second half. Only Adolin and Shallan are really in a position to have kids, though. I guess if Syladin really does happen they could have some kind of kid relevant in the second half? I don't think Renarin and Rlain will magically produce offspring, but I have been dreading what Rlain meant when he said mateform was a "disaster" for him.

I’m pretty sure he just meant that he found out he was gay.

[Njvodin]

Aw man, Stick, you made a post 2 minutes after me but it got more popular 
 

12 hours ago, alder24 said:

Which spren are Ghostbloods bonded to? My guesses are either Mistspren, or Highspren. Highspren make a lot of sense now because of the group of flying Ghostbloods respecting law, who weren't Radiants. They weren't Radiants because they were bonded to Enlightened Highspren. Oh yeah, it's all coming together.

oh that makes so much sense, I forgot all about that. Now I have to re-read the Lost Metal to see what else I missed. Nice pick-up!

 

12 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

iirc, Sanderson's mentioned there's "lesser" dragons in the cosmere, and that "greater" dragons raise their young in human form. I think a lesser dragon egg would make sense. A greater dragon egg... sounds incredibly dangerous to try and collect and then put in a case and not do anything cool wit

Woah. I'd wondered what it was, this is a good idea

[bmcclure7]

3 hours ago, StanLemon said:

Dude. I say in the first line that of the quote you used that I don't think it's likely. Calm down.

Secondly, we don't get a single perspective from Lift after she's captured by Mraize. At least that I recall, and the Coppermind doesn't list any perspectives from her after. So no, we don't know that she hasn't become a spy. There could be any number of ways he could tempt her, he's a manipulator after all. Maybe he knows she didn't want to grow up after spying on her for a year and offered a way to keep her from growing up. Maybe he tempted her with the excitement of spywork. Etc. 

Lift had been spying on the very conversation that Mraize had said they got tipped off by their "new recruit". Is it likely she's a spy? No. But that doesn't mean it's not a possibility. 

Wasn’t it revealed that was the Sja- anot? I’m pretty sure that’s what was revealed in the chapter correct me if I’m wrong. 
 

4 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Posterity, not prosperity. Like her descendants.

I agree she totally could be and I’m down for them to have kids soon. I’m just saying that the one line from Sja-Anat is nothing remotely close to clear confirmation. People were talking like it was an obvious signal but I don’t think that’s the case at all.

The possibility for it was never closed, though. It can easily happen, in just saying this one interaction doesn’t tell us anything. And I also think that wording by Asha-Anat was a very normal thing she would have said even if Shallan were definitely not pregnant.

Agreed it’s too early to tell but it’s definitely a possibility so we should keep an eye out for more foreshadowing

Edited October 29, 2024 by bmcclure7

[Ashbringer he/him]

6 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Wasn’t it revealed that was the Sja- anot? I’m pretty sure that’s what was revealed in the chapter correct me if I’m wrong. 

Sja-anat might be their "newest recruit", but she also says that she'd have drawn the attention of the Sibling. She might have been the plan to nudge Dalinar into entering the Spiritual, but I doubt she was the source. Mraize seems to address those as separate persons.

It could be one of her Enlightened spren, though. Another possibility is the Mink, or another conversation participant - or even that new guard we met with Dalinar. Or some sort of bug/wiretap, Those are close to existing.

I think another possibility is the more Rosharan type of bug - the Ghostblood-aligned Sleepless. We haven't actually seen them in action yet.

[Slappyface]

I don’t think this will happen and that’s kinda annoying but, since they are visiting a memory of Hoid’s, Brandon could theoretically show us the Shattering of Adonalsium…

 

Edited October 29, 2024 by Slappyface

[BinarySecond]

Well, I did say surely Scadrians can recognise each others eyes. 

 

Sja-Anat spying for the Ghostbloods is pretty unexpected though.

[bmcclure7]

8 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Sja-anat might be their "newest recruit", but she also says that she'd have drawn the attention of the Sibling. She might have been the plan to nudge Dalinar into entering the Spiritual, but I doubt she was the source. Mraize seems to address those as separate persons.

It could be one of her Enlightened spren, though. Another possibility is the Mink, or another conversation participant - or even that new guard we met with Dalinar. Or some sort of bug/wiretap, Those are close to existing.

I think another possibility is the more Rosharan type of bug - the Ghostblood-aligned Sleepless. We haven't actually seen them in action yet.

The ghost blood sale was about to be attacked by the wind runners so I suspect we will their sleepless take action. After all, it’s too early for them to catch the ghost bloods. Which means the ghost have to have an Ace up their sleeve to escape. I’m willing to guess the sleepless is the ace.

[Confused]

If Dal holds Odium, should we call him 'Da-dium," pronounced "Daddy-M"? Who's YOUR daddy? Seems appropriate... (Adolin and Renarin think so.)

[BinarySecond]

I refuse to sit by and let Daddy-M become a thing. I shall fight you on this.

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

On 10/28/2024 at 11:51 AM, Ashbringer said:

, Sanderson's mentioned there's "lesser" dragons in the cosmere, and that "greater" dragons raise their young in human form. I think a lesser dragon egg would make sense. A greater dragon egg... sounds incredibly dangerous to try and collect and then put in a case and not do anything cool with.

I'm thinking a Larkin egg. Or a lesser dragon.

Quote

“Something is wrong with him,” Iyatil said softly. “I do not think he has been replaced with a duplicate, but I do question his loyalty to our cause.”

I think this is a foreshadowing that there will be a kandra reveal in this book. Not necessarily Mraize, but this is foreshadowing by introducing the idea of duplicates or people being replaced.

Quote

You can peek into an event I’ve witnessed, experience it, and return so we can compare notes. If that works, we can send you on a longer journey, into times I wasn’t here to witness.”

Calling it now - Wit takes them to his conversation with Odium and uses this to figure out what was modified in his memory. And from this, they figure out it's Taravangian.

Quote

But I have to ask. What will it mean, Dalinar? And does it have to be you?”

More foreshadowing I think that Kaladin might do it, not Dalinar. 

[Isilel]

So, here is something interesting that I haven't seen mentioned  - the masked woman whom Shallan was impersonating _also_ wasn't a native Scadrian, just someone of that descent. Iyatil said  how Thaidakar wanted to protect _his_ homeland when talking to Shallan, not "your". So, it seems that there is a fairly significant SoScad ex-pat community, possibly in Silverlight, that continues the mask-wearing tradition and kept the language, but doesn't consider Scadrial their home. I wonder if when Harmony's Perpendicularity appeared, at the same time as the drastic cooling of the South started, the people who lived near it's location escaped en masse to Shadesmar and somehow made their way to Silverlight or wherever.

Which is a weird feature of the Ghostbloods - Kelsier seems to mostly recruit  members among the people who don't have any intrinsic reason to put protection of Scadrial over all other considerations. And now it seems like there are several different plans concerning the use that BAM should be put to. We have now heard Iyatil's, but Kelsier also wanted her for some reason. He already was trying to get his hands on Kalak specifically years ago and Felt and Ala are his people.

This masked woman also seems to have a pretty low opinion of Kelsier's intelligence, which I found rather surprising and even a bit shocking. Though, In view of TLM and what we see on Roshar, I do seriously question his competence.

Well, Shallan is cornered, but she has her armor and can also summon Testament as a shardblade on a moment's notice, even though it would take time for Pattern to get to her. I don't think that there is time for her to deal with loss of Pattern as well as look for BAM together with R&R, so he is safe from Mraize's anti-stormlight bolts, IMHO. But at least one of her people is toast for sure. I also really hope that we are going to finally see some Metallic Arts, harmonium grenades and other modern Scadrian gadgets that high-ranking Ghostbloods _should_ have, in action.

Concerning Mraize - I wonder where his Aviar is and whether or not he has switched his allegiance to the Fused/Odium.

 

On 10/28/2024 at 4:42 PM, the_archduke said:

How did Mraize know Dalinar was going to the Spiritual realm?  Someone in the inner circle would have had to leak it.  He also mentions a new recruit that could have urged this but didn't need to. 

 

The new recruit is Sja-Anat and her "children" who are able to spy in Urithiru have to be Glys and Tumi, since we were told that the Sibling can keep Voidish investiture out and they have no reason to make any other exceptions. I imagine that the "urging" may have taken the form of a vision of the future? It may be interesting if Glys can trigger those and direct them in some fashion. I think that this WoB fits the idea of them actively working for her:

 

 

Quote

 

Oversleep

Will there be Enlightened spren of other Radiant Orders than Truthwatchers, and why does Sja-anat like Truthwatchers so much?

Brandon Sanderson

The reason Sja-anat likes Truthwatcher spren the most is because they are the most willing. And she considers what she's doing offering Enlightenment, not corrupting. And she considers their willingness to be a part of this. Outside observers might consider her methods less... involving less volition on the parts of some of the spren that she touches. They might argue with her on that point. In this case, as it comes with the two Truthwatcher spren that you see in the books, they both went to what they are willingly. Fully willingly to become what they are. They are, you might say, participants in her plans. So that's why she wants them.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

 

 

I assume that Shallan will see the connection and that's how Renarin and Rlain will become involved in the BAM business. Renarin himself may be already consciously involved on Sj-A's behest, like he was in T's Ascension.

 

On 10/28/2024 at 5:52 PM, alder24 said:

Highspren make a lot of sense now because of the group of flying Ghostbloods respecting law, who weren't Radiants. They weren't Radiants because they were bonded to Enlightened Highspren.

 

There is no reason to think that it is any easier to transport enlightened bonded spren out of Rosharan system, while keeping the powers, than it is to do the same with normal Radiant spren. The Fused and the voidspren are similarly restricted.

 

 

Edited October 30, 2024 by Isilel

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, Isilel said:

There is no reason to think that it is any easier to transport enlightened bonded spren out of Rosharan system, while keeping the powers, than it is to do the same with normal Radiant spren. The Fused and the voidspren are similarly restricted.

That's not what I wanted to suggest, only that Enlightened True Spren are bonding with Ghostbloods. They would still be bound to Roshar and unable to leave, so they would need some way to overcome that. The same method that they want to use on Stormlight could be used on spren, or potentially if Ghostbloods succeed in getting BAM, Mishram could use her Connection tricks to allow them to leave.