Chapter 19 & 20 Discussion

[RedBlue]

Szeth’s problems were the real standout to me this week. He has:

1. Actual voices in his head associated with the people he murdered — probably not hallucinations, but a real effect of some investiture shenanigan
2. A spren that encourages him to suppress his emotions
3. A belief that stepping away from active combat shows a weakness of character (maybe he thinks self-sacrifice is noble?)
4. Zero brain-to-mouth filter, especially for anything he considers objectively true 
5. Difficulty understanding the difference between a fact and an opinion
6. No confidence in his own judgement, except when he doesn’t register that he is making a judgement (this works both for and against him right now)

It’s difficult to tell what is causing some of these. There are a bunch of separate invested arts in play which aren’t safe to mess around with, plus Shin cultural problems, plus Skybreaker cultural problems, plus Szeth’s own flaws and trauma. All of those factors could be interacting and exacerbating each other.

I suspect the spren has its own serious mental health problems, possibly tying into whatever happened during the Recreance. I don’t think highspren are ‘supposed’ to be as unhelpful as Szeth’s is being. Perhaps they could recover with treatment, similar to the deadeyes?

Kaladin is going to have an awful lot to untangle when he sits down for make-it-up-as-I-go therapy. I’m looking forward to this the most.

[therunner he/him]

8 hours ago, Isilel said:

Or so the lore claims. Yet Ishar was behind all the most important decisions made by the Heralds.

Chapter 111 of RoW specifically goes into how Ishar's depiction, given by Shalash,  differed from Dalinar's expectations:

Sounds very much like a leader to me! Rather similar to Dalinar, in fact.

Not just lore, other Heralds as well. Nale calls him as such, he is the one who informs Kalak, he is the one who reveleas Aharietam to people and claims he will lead them to victory in Tranquiline Halls.

Everything suggests that he was the primary leader. Hell, many religions have him as the sole deity. Why would that be?

I am not saying Bondsmiths weren't important, but that does not make them leaders.

Quote

I would say that what we know about the history of bitter disagreements between the Windrunners and the Skybreakers (and some other Orders, IIRC), makes it pretty certain that Windrunners weren't overall leaders of the Radiants in the past.

Yes, that is the one actual disagreement we know about, one that only grew into something problematic during times of Recreance (per the gemstone archive), when the overall division among Orders became problematic in general. (Oathbringer Epigraphs 64, 67, 70).

And again, I am not saying all of Windrunners were leaders of the Radiants, I am saying often it was a Windrunner, who was the overall leader, most likely one of Fifth Oath (who would embody both Divine Attributes, Leading and Protecting, like Fifth Ideal Skybreaker should be both Just and Confident). But similarly to what we see in coalition, other Orders would also be in positions of leadership, and advice.

Our resident Windrunner (Kaladin) keeps getting into leadership positions, in Amaram's army, in leading escape attempts as slave, in Bridge Crews, as Captain of the Guard, with escaped Parshmen, with Wall Guard, with people of Urithiru during occupation (there leading more by example), and now he is in position to be heir apparent to Urithiru.
There is a considerable history there.

Conversely, both Bondsmiths were people born into leadership on some level (not diminish their own accomplishments), but to Kaladin (and in my opinion someone who has potential to be 5th Ideal windrunner) it comes naturally, no matter their station. Per the SayTheWords and description of the Ten Orders, Bondsmiths don't sound like leaders to me, but more like mediators and negotiators (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/528/#e16470 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/424/#e13781 ).
 

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They negotiate treaties, and resolve disputes, and help people to see each other as people, instead of as rivals or foreigners or enemies. Their main power (if you can call it a power) is to help people find common ground, and get them to agree on things, and to make those agreements matter.
...
Sometimes, they're in the middle of those groups, corralling the actions and holding the attention. Sometimes, they're out on the edges, watching the group they created have new ideas and activities and adventures of their own. Either way, the Bondsmith is happy.

So while Bondsmith can be in the center like Dalinar is, that does not have to be the case (like we see with Navani).
And right now, I think Dalinar's way is detrimental, because he is too caught up in being a leader and a Bondsmith.

Quote

It is different in WaT, with the different make-up of the anti-Odium Radiants. Kaladin may indeed become such a leader, though I have my doubts that this will come to pass. It is also far from certain that he will be (only) a Windrunner if this happens, rather than a Bondsmith or dual-bonded.

I don't think he will be Bondsmith, he does not have the temperament for it, though that can change.

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Yet Melishi unquestionably led during the False Desolation.

Really? Can you get me a quote on that?

Because from what I am seeing from Epigraphs, there is no mention of that at all. Melishi is mentioned as a Bondsmith, and as part of coalition of scholar Radiants that developed the plan to capture BAM. Nowhere does it mention them to be the leader.

Edited October 8, 2024 by therunner

[Aleph-Naught he/him]

15 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Quote

a formal agreement like that binds the power, not just the individual, something Rayse himself discovered long ago.

This makes it sound like Rayse inherited a promise from Adonalsium that he wishes he could break. I wonder what it is? Not harming Hoid or not harming former Dawnshards generally unless they break an oath? Not harming living things directly unless they break a promise? Like how Wit said Odium could wipe out all of Roshar if Fen broke the agreement.  

I think it's more simple than that: just a wry reference to Odium's agreement that resulted in him being bound to the Roshar system.

[BinarySecond]

7 hours ago, RedBlue said:

Szeth’s problems were the real standout to me this week. He has:

1. Actual voices in his head associated with the people he murdered — probably not hallucinations, but a real effect of some investiture shenanigan
2. A spren that encourages him to suppress his emotions
3. A belief that stepping away from active combat shows a weakness of character (maybe he thinks self-sacrifice is noble?)
4. Zero brain-to-mouth filter, especially for anything he considers objectively true 
5. Difficulty understanding the difference between a fact and an opinion
6. No confidence in his own judgement, except when he doesn’t register that he is making a judgement (this works both for and against him right now)

It’s difficult to tell what is causing some of these. There are a bunch of separate invested arts in play which aren’t safe to mess around with, plus Shin cultural problems, plus Skybreaker cultural problems, plus Szeth’s own flaws and trauma. All of those factors could be interacting and exacerbating each other.

I suspect the spren has its own serious mental health problems, possibly tying into whatever happened during the Recreance. I don’t think highspren are ‘supposed’ to be as unhelpful as Szeth’s is being. Perhaps they could recover with treatment, similar to the deadeyes?

Kaladin is going to have an awful lot to untangle when he sits down for make-it-up-as-I-go therapy. I’m looking forward to this the most.

Thanks for this, you've given words to my vague feelings about Szeth's behaviour.

 

And something is started to tell me that the Highspren didn't make it out of The Recreance unharmed.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

6 hours ago, Aleph-Naught said:

I think it's more simple than that: just a wry reference to Odium's agreement that resulted in him being bound to the Roshar system.

That seems implausible. As Rayse was the original vessel of Odium, how would he learn that Odium as opposed to himself is affected?

[+robardin he/him]

43 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That seems implausible. As Rayse was the original vessel of Odium, how would he learn that Odium as opposed to himself is affected?

I concur, my first reading of that statement is that Rayse -- the first Vessel of Odium after the Shattering -- "discovered" that he was still bound by agreements or oaths that "the power" had already been bound by, before his taking it up.

That implies it's something of Adonalsium, or even older?!, and therefore something that also binds ANY of the Vessels of all of the Shards.

But that also boggles the mind, who would Adonalsium have made a "formal agreement" WITH?

There's another possibility: to read the statement in reverse, or rather, emphasizing the other half of it.

"...a formal agreement like that binds the power, not just the individual, something Rayse himself discovered long ago."

Perhaps that means that Rayse thought he could end the "formal agreement" with Honor by killing Tanavast, i.e., "I made that agreement with Tanavast but he's dead so I'm free", only to find that as long as the power of Honor existed (perhaps stashed in bulk and in enough quantity somewhere, as Cultivation implied, that it could still be taken up?), that Odium was still bound, whoever its Vessel was?

[listerfeend]

16 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

It is boring only if it fails. What if Wind and Truth ends with The Sibling unmade?

Even if it succeeds, it will be boring while it is happening, because it will be a rehash of RoW, and everyone will assume it's going to fail again. And then, if it doesn't, and the The Sibling DOES end up unmade, well, what was the point of RoW and getting the Tower going and Bonding the Sibling and everything...It just doesn't really make a lot of sense in my head

[BinarySecond]

20 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

Even if it succeeds, it will be boring while it is happening, because it will be a rehash of RoW, and everyone will assume it's going to fail again. And then, if it doesn't, and the The Sibling DOES end up unmade, well, what was the point of RoW and getting the Tower going and Bonding the Sibling and everything...It just doesn't really make a lot of sense in my head

That's a really good point; for The Sibling to vanish in the book we're expecting to learn about it - That's just a feels bad man moment.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

32 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

Even if it succeeds, it will be boring while it is happening, because it will be a rehash of RoW, and everyone will assume it's going to fail again. And then, if it doesn't, and the The Sibling DOES end up unmade, well, what was the point of RoW and getting the Tower going and Bonding the Sibling and everything...It just doesn't really make a lot of sense in my head

The purpose would be to get a Bondsmith with a Nahel bond to an Unmade.

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

22 hours ago, paperstones said:

I agree. I also think that with the conversation between Navani and the Sibling with how they can do things the ancient Radiants couldn’t, she will be instrumental with defending the tower. Using it in a way it hasn’t before.

21 hours ago, listerfeend said:

struggle with this because that feels like it would just be a rehash of RoW at that point. The Tower was already taken over, under attack, etc... So, even if this is what happens, it seems like it won't be a major point of the conflict?

I think what will happen is Skybreakers attack, but then we have the foreshadowing from the interaction between Navani and the Sibling, that they can do new things now that they couldn't before - so this will result in Navani helping turn the Sibling/Urithiru into a big airship/spaceship.

This would not be disappointing to me at all, it would be an awesome moment and culmination of a lot of things from Navani's arc: her confidence as a scientist, her designs and ideas for an airship going way back to her doodles in earlier books, and makes her mobile despite the setup we now have of her having to stay with the Sibling. And ties with this whole theme of the new Radiants doing new things.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

50 minutes ago, robardin said:

But that also boggles the mind, who would Adonalsium have made a "formal agreement" WITH?

There's another possibility: to read the statement in reverse, or rather, emphasizing the other half of it.

"...a formal agreement like that binds the power, not just the individual, something Rayse himself discovered long ago."

Nothing in that statement says that Rayse discovered it by suffering the consequences himself. It could also be that he made experiments with Ambition before splintering the Shard. In fact that may be the reason he did rule out taking up another Shard. He had to abandon plan to take up Ambition because it came with conditions attached.

 

EDIT: As for whom Adonalsium would make a formal agreement with, I think there is a possibility: himself

Would a formal, signed promise count?

Edited October 8, 2024 by Oltux72
forgot to answer the first question

[Master Silver]

As far as Adolin being Odium's Champion, I don't see it. Only way it could occur is if Adolin becomes so embittered (maybe by failing in Azir) that he convinces himself that he deserves to die and the best way to sacrifice himself is by being the champion of Odium, ensuring a Radiant victory by not fighting. And he can also say you can kill me like you killed my mom. The other option going from a death rattle, would be Dalinar being able to save Adolin, abdicating the throne and leaving the contest to save his son. The choice of Honor is life. Then Kaladin must pick them up. The fallen title, the crown, the spear. I can also see poor Renarin trying to step in and getting killed. Dalinar ascends and resurrects him, but that is post Kaladin holding Renarin in his arms. Dalinar ascends and appoints Kaladin as Champion.

 

It is possible that the Radiants win the contest but lose everything else, leading to the exile. 

[Aleph-Naught he/him]

2 hours ago, robardin said:

I concur, my first reading of that statement is that Rayse -- the first Vessel of Odium after the Shattering -- "discovered" that he was still bound by agreements or oaths that "the power" had already been bound by, before his taking it up.

That implies it's something of Adonalsium, or even older?!, and therefore something that also binds ANY of the Vessels of all of the Shards.

Odium didn't exist before the shattering, and you can't assume Odium is an intrinsic piece of Adonalsium (i.e. that Odium would have always been one of the shards produced by the shattering) because--if I recall correctly--Brandon has stated that different shards with different intents could have been generated by the shattering under different circumstances.

But the real issue with the statement above is this idea that an agreement made by Adonalsium would somehow still be in effect or bind the shards after it has been, for lack of a better word, murdered. But your subsequent statement:

Quote

Perhaps that means that Rayse thought he could end the "formal agreement" with Honor by killing Tanavast, i.e., "I made that agreement with Tanavast but he's dead so I'm free", only to find that as long as the power of Honor existed (perhaps stashed in bulk and in enough quantity somewhere, as Cultivation implied, that it could still be taken up?), that Odium was still bound, whoever its Vessel was?

 fits with what I originally posted: Wit's comment was referring to Rayse thinking he could get out of the Rosharan system but discovered he couldn't.

The idea that a pre-existing agreement/obligation made by Adonalsium before the shattering has been inherited by the shards requires a lot of assumptions to do the heavy lifting when we still know incredibly little about Adonalsium itself; I find that far more implausible and convoluted than Wit's comment simply being a mocking reference to how Odium/Rayse ended up bound in the Rosharan system.

I find it much more plausible that all of these "rules" regarding agreements/promises by shards to be a by-product of the shattering: 17 people conspired to dismember a god-like being and divvy up its power, I can't imagine such a group agreeing to such an undertaking without some kind of paranoid negotiation putting rules in place about what they would be allowed to do with the power after they succeeded at the endeavor. We know of at least one of those agreements was for shards to remain isolated from one another, Devotion and Dominion's violation of that agreement is what allowed Odium to destroy them.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

...In fact that may be the reason he did rule out taking up another Shard. He had to abandon plan to take up Ambition because it came with conditions attached.

EDIT: As for whom Adonalsium would make a formal agreement with, I think there is a possibility: himself

It has already been explained why Rayse/Odium didn't want to take up another shard and it has nothing to do with him discovering some pre-existing condition Adonalsium made that now binds the shards: Odium didn't want his intent to be altered.

A formal agreement/contract/obligation requires two different parties and--at least, in U.S. common law--a bunch of other things that would be rendered absurd if Adonalsium could make a formal agreement with themself such as "mutual assent" and adequate "consideration."

Edited October 8, 2024 by Aleph-Naught
Grammar, clarity.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 hour ago, Aleph-Naught said:

It has already been explained why Rayse/Odium didn't want to take up another shard and it has nothing to do with him discovering some pre-existing condition Adonalsium made that now binds the shards: Odium didn't want his intent to be altered.

I do have to point out that vessels succumb to the power over time. It is possible that his motivations at the time he destroyed Ambition were not what they were later on.

[Eluvianii he/him]

Woah, just caught up for the last 6 weeks or so. Sneaky Brandon. If he gives literally everyone a death flag, we won't know who'll actually die. 

Or they all might, idk. 

Guys, you all seem to be contextualizing Szeth calling Kal a coward as an insult, and that would be out of character. But I don't think it was an insult. Szeth perceives that, he believes it to be true, and he can't see the truth as an insult. He's even confused about why Kal was bothered by it. Fascinating perspective really, he's probably conditioned to it too. Years ago he was told a "truth" and was forced to let it ruin his life for years. Long enough that he just had to accept it as fact and separate his emotions from it. Now he expects everyone to be just as disconnected as he is, which obviously leads to conflict without him even noticing. He's probably a lot more confident in what he perceives as fact now that he isn't Truthless too. 

After these last few chapters I think I'm on board with the Champion Gavinor theory. 

Oh yeah, saw a discussion a few threads back about the drawing of Urithiru, and some of the spren being gray. Well, I just read that chapter yesterday, and the current picture of Urithiru shows all the spren as white. Not sure why the change happened but, just mentioning it. 

Love the tactical discussion, need more military intrigue in the series. 

[Aleph-Naught he/him]

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I do have to point out that vessels succumb to the power over time. It is possible that his motivations at the time he destroyed Ambition were not what they were later on.

"Succumb" is, I think, too strong of a word because it implies inevitability:

Quote

Argent

...So, we know that the Shards' personalities overrides the Vessel's personality over time?

Brandon Sanderson

Strongly influence, and depending on the individual, override...

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

Certainly there is evidence that suggests Rayse was coming into conflict with the intent of Odium, but his motivations have--so far as I know--never wavered:

Quote

Nepene

I have a question, if you are willing. Would Ruin be more compatible with Rayse, would he pick up that shard had he visited Scadrial and shattered him? All the shards we have seen that he has shattered seem rather different in intent than him- Honor, Cultivation, Love, Dominion. But Ruin seems more in line with Odium. Rayse has ruined the days of quite a few people.

Brandon Sanderson

Technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation. Ruin's 'theme' so to speak is that all things must age and pass. An embodiment of entropy. That power, separated from the whole and being held by a person who did not have the willpower to resist its transformation of him, led to something very dangerous. But it was not evil. None of the sixteen technically are, though you may have read that Hoid has specific beef with Rayse. Whether you think of Odium as evil depends upon how much you agree with Hoid's particular view.

That said, Ruin would have been one of the 'safer' of the sixteen for Rayse to take, if he'd been about that. Odium is by its nature selfish, however, and the combination of it and Rayse makes for an entity that fears an additional power would destroy it and make it into something else.

General Reddit 2013 (March 14, 2013)

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Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Odium wants to be the only Shard. Odium could pick up other Shards if he wants to, but, he doesn't want to. His Shard is a good match for his personality and he doesn't want to be influenced by another Shard.

Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011)

 

Edited October 9, 2024 by Aleph-Naught
Attempt to eliminate weird spacing.

[Wanguu He/Him]

2 hours ago, Eluvianii said:

Oh yeah, saw a discussion a few threads back about the drawing of Urithiru, and some of the spren being gray. Well, I just read that chapter yesterday, and the current picture of Urithiru shows all the spren as white. Not sure why the change happened but, just mentioning it. 

 

Old one: (taken from Lightspine's post)

Updated artwork:

Here is a zoom in of the differences of the spren specifically:

Of note: the "these two seem familiar" text is gone, and there's a new face of a pug-like spren. 
Should this be made its own thread? This is an intriguing discovery.

[teknopathetic he/him]

I wonder what would happen if team Honour completely soulcast everything around the Azish oath gates? Like, essentially filled the area with concrete. Wouldn’t that stop all but the deepest ones? 

[Unhurried he/him]

On 10/7/2024 at 4:40 PM, Child of Hodor said:

 This makes it sound like Rayse inherited a promise from Adonalsium that he wishes he could break.

EDIT: Sorry just saw your posts Aleph-Naught! Agree there was probably some form of negotiation that took place, though I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of this was off the cuff "we actually killed Adonalsium, quick we better figure something out"?

 

I'm wondering how much of these "agreements" trace back to anything the first Shards said immediately after the Shattering - I don't know if we have any WoBs on something like this? 

At minimum, SA and wider Cosmere seem to imply the following Shard rules (which can only be modified with mutual consent):

1. One Shard per planet

2. No direct attack on another Shard

3. No direct manipulation of free will

All of which to say, perhaps Rayse wishes he could break all of these rules because they hinder his long term plan to be the only god:

1. Means he cannot get close enough to a Shard to...

2. Splinter or otherwise render ineffective other Shards

3. Makes it harder to have willing soldiers - e.g. the Thrill needing people to willingly accept it, but once they do Odium seems able to manipulate them to his aims much more easily 

What do others think? Any other Shattering-era rules at play?

Edited October 8, 2024 by UnhurriedSleepless

[Ashbringer he/him]

1 hour ago, UnhurriedSleepless said:

What do others think? Any other Shattering-era rules at play?

I wouldn't be surprised if there were specific rules concerning the Dawnshards. It seems like from WoBs that they're capable of using them, but it also seems like the Shards need to use them indirectly (through Ishar, for instance) and not directly being both a Shard and Dawnshard.

[Isilel]

I had another thought - in one of the earlier chapters we were shown abandoned ships of the honorspren, a group of spren leaving Lasting Integrity over disagreement with it's leadership and Captain Notum looking for a way to contribute without bonding... Can it be that the Azir invasion force is going to be attacked by a ressurected honorspren navy in Shadesmar?

 

On 10/8/2024 at 12:39 AM, Confused said:

My best guess is they’ll try to kidnap/kill Navani. They may succeed based on this logic: If Dalinar Ascends, can he continue his marriage with Navani?

 

Navani has her own narrative importance, apart from her relationship with Dalinar! She needs to figure out an ethical way to produce powerful modern fabrials, together with the Sibling.  In addition, Dalinar has already been motivated by the death of a wife, doing it the second time would leave a very bad taste in my mouth and move into a "women in a fridge" trope area.

I know that people want Kaladin to become king of Urithiru, but even if he is not otherwise occupied at the end of WaT, this doesn't require Navani's death, just her stepping down. As I pointed out above, she has more important things to do and shouldn't waste her time on the issues of government yet again anyway.

Personally, I don't believe that Dalinar will wholly Ascend, he is more of a Moses-type figure, but if it comes to that, he will make whatever sacrifices are required, IMHO.

 

Edited October 9, 2024 by Isilel

[listerfeend]

22 hours ago, Dreamwa1ker said:

This would not be disappointing to me at all, it would be an awesome moment and culmination of a lot of things from Navani's arc: her confidence as a scientist, her designs and ideas for an airship going way back to her doodles in earlier books, and makes her mobile despite the setup we now have of her having to stay with the Sibling. And ties with this whole theme of the new Radiants doing new things.

I am 10000% on board with the Urithuru is a Spaceship theory. It makes SO MUCH sense that a structure that has it's own life support system that makes living on top of a mountain possible could be altered to make living in space possible. This could be a way to introduce something like that. I think there are definitely other ways to make that come about that isn't rehashing another attack on Urithuru though. 

To be clear, it's entirely possible that we will see the Skybreakers attack Urithuru. That DOES make sense tactically. And I'll be so on board and waiting with baited breath to find out how Navani and Co make it through that. I ALSO feel like it will be redundant if that is the way it goes down lol

22 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

23 hours ago, robardin said:

But that also boggles the mind, who would Adonalsium have made a "formal agreement" WITH?

There's another possibility: to read the statement in reverse, or rather, emphasizing the other half of it.

"...a formal agreement like that binds the power, not just the individual, something Rayse himself discovered long ago."

Nothing in that statement says that Rayse discovered it by suffering the consequences himself. It could also be that he made experiments with Ambition before splintering the Shard. In fact that may be the reason he did rule out taking up another Shard. He had to abandon plan to take up Ambition because it came with conditions attached.

Am I the only one that read that as "Odium got trapped here based on a formal agreement" and that is how he discovered the consequences of a formal agreement that binds the power?

[alder24]

2 hours ago, listerfeend said:

I am 10000% on board with the Urithuru is a Spaceship theory.

Sorry to say this, but Brandon shot  this theory down:

Spoiler

Joe ST

Is Urithiru a spaceship?

Brandon Sanderson

 It is not, no, good question. I've never been asked that before. It's very Sim City, though.

Joe ST

It's a new theory, they're thinking, is it one of the floating cities from--

Brandon Sanderson

From Ashyn, yeah. Boy, that would be hard, it is so big. But, I suppose, magic, you know. But no, it is not...

Oathbringer Newcastle signing (Dec. 1, 2017)

It doesn't mean that it won't become a spaceship in the future but I highly doubt it. Making a 10 km high mountain fly faster than light would be ridiculously hard and inefficient. Urithiru is just way too big to be a spaceship.

2 hours ago, listerfeend said:

Am I the only one that read that as "Odium got trapped here based on a formal agreement" and that is how he discovered the consequences of a formal agreement that binds the power?

No, me too. I don't know why everyone is so confused by this. 

[CtrlAltDepressed]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No, me too. I don't know why everyone is so confused by this. 

It could also be referencing how Rayse killed the other shards. 

 

I think both are equally likely. 

[listerfeend]

9 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It doesn't mean that it won't become a spaceship in the future but I highly doubt it. Making a 10 km high mountain fly faster than light would be ridiculously hard and inefficient. Urithiru is just way too big to be a spaceship.

Yes, he did shoot down the theory that it is a spaceship, but not that it could be one, as you stated. I really don't think that its size or shape much matters when you have people that can manipulate gravity, and teleport things around. Just have to get that massive tower into space, and then you can do whatever you want with it.

Could they maybe transfer the Sibling into something that would be more suited to spaceflight? I feel like that is definitely possible, and would solve your issues of the size and structure of Urithuru as it stands, while still making "Urithuru" (the things that it can do) the spaceship.