Thoughts on Re-Released Prologue

[+Oltux72 he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Not solved because they would have still had access to Surgebinding, they were afraid they themselves would accidentally destroy Roshar. In their mind, as long as Radiants existed, the threat remained. Breaking Oaths was the only way to stop this threat - at least that's what they thought. They couldn't have trusted themselves to not Surgebind - it's unreasonable to expect a Windrunner not to use his powers to protect, or an Edgedancer not to heal, or any other Radiant to just stop Surgebinding, being held back only by their own willpower. That's just impossible. It's all about fearing to cause an accident that will hurt Roshar - and they'd literally just witnessed one accident that had unforeseeable consequences and lobotomized an entire sentient, native species. They already had proof that their powers were dangerous and they could destroy everything, even when those powers were used for the greater good.

Surgebinding had been in use for thousands of years at that time. Do you want to propose that everybody all of a sudden was ready to break their bonds? Unanimously?

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Releasing BAM wasn't an option because that would have started another Desolation.

And what will happen if it happens anyway without the Knights Radiant present and Honor about to die?

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

It wasn't organized. It just happened. All Radiants made this decision together with their spren in the heat of the moment, mostly independent from each other. Spren knew it would hurt or it might even kill them, yet they were still willing to do this (Maya told us this).

But as a spontaneous answer to which phenomenon?

 

[CtrlAltDepressed]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

But as a spontaneous answer to which phenomenon?

Honor himself leaked the secret that Surgebinding had destroyed Ashyn. 

 

The most powerful being that they know of, that they worship and respect, told them in no uncertain terms that what they are doing destroyed an entire planet. Which, subsequently, lead to the desolations. 

 

Honor did not include all of the details that we know that would make the destruction of Ashyn easier to move past. For one, Tanavast was out of his brain piece, and was not presenting the situation clearly. 

 

Yes, Surgebinding did destroy Ashyn. However, Honor himself placed restrictions on surgebinding to prevent that, as well as Ishar structuring the Radiant ideals to prevent another incident of that scale. In addition to the restrictions, I dont think Honor told them that a Dawnshard was involved, and if he did, they would not know the significance. 

 

It was a specific set of circumstances that lead to Ashyn being destroyed, circumstances that are hard to reproduce. Honor did not tell them all of that, and so its logical to conclude that Radiants should break their oaths. 

 

Applicable meme:

Radiants when they learn about Ashyn

 

[alder24]

50 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I wouldn't be surprised if deciding to never use their powers to uphold their Ideal counts as breaking their oaths in and of itself anyway.

It can be, but it depends on how both knights and spren view such an action. If they were also in agreement and viewed this as a necessary step, this could have worked. However it would have been really hard to justify inaction if a Wundrunner could have saved a person by using Gravitation, but didn't use it - Kaladin struggled a lot to accept that he couldn't help others despite having all those powers, he wouldn't have been able to sit with those powers, watching others die and not use them to help and protect. He might have viewed this as breaking his oaths. Those above 4th Ideal would be better suited to withstand such mental pressure.

Spoiler

[...]

Are you saying that the spren’s view of themself influences how they work?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017)

 

36 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Surgebinding had been in use for thousands of years at that time. Do you want to propose that everybody all of a sudden was ready to break their bonds? Unanimously?

What do you mean Surgebinding wasn't used? Of course it was! Radiants existed before Recreance, just not in full numbers. Urithiru was active and buzzing with people, knights and spren. 

And it wasn't that sudden. Cracks were already appearing on the surface. The Sibling banished everyone from the Tower, there was a conflict between Radiants and the Sibling, Oathgates had to be shut off, Radiants themselves were divided (especially Windrunners and Skybreakers). Not to mention they were fighting a war that shouldn't have happened - they were told that the enemy was defeated during Aharietiam, Heralds promised them no more Desolations. Add to this the fact that they knew humans were the first Voidbringers, brought Odium to Roshar and started the first Desolation and the fact that Honor was dying at that moment, ranting about Dawnshards and promising Radiants that they will destroy Roshar, just like they did with Ashyn. Taking all of this into consideration what other thing they should have done when Radiants suddenly realized that imprisonment of BAM turned the entire race into brainless creatures, wounding every spren and person that belonged to Roshar? They knew Honor was right and they were on the path to destroy everything. They knew they were the very thing they'd sworn to protect Roshar from - and they had already failed.

This is the only thing Radiants needed to break their bond, the sudden realization that Honor was right and Roshar is endangered by their presence alone. 

OB epigraphs - Urithiru Gem Archive:

Quote

"I wish to submit my formal protest at the idea of abandoning the tower. This is an extreme step, taken brashly."

"I returned to the tower to find squabbling children, instead of proud knights, That's why I hate this place. I'm going to go chart the hidden undersea caverns of Aimia; find my maps in Akinah."

"The disagreements between the Skybreakers and the Windrunners have grown to tragic levels. I plead with any who hear this to recognize you are not so different as you think."

"This generation has had only one Bondsmith, and some blame the divisions among us upon this fact. The true problem is far deeper. I believe that Honor himself is changing."

"Something is happening to the Sibling. I agree this is true, but the division among the Knights Radiant is not to blame. Our perceived worthiness is a separate issue."

"We are uncertain the effects this will have on the parsh. At the very least, it should deny them forms of power. Melishi is confident, but Naze-daughter-Kuzodo warns of unintended side effects."

"Surely this will bring - at long last - the end to war that the Heralds promised us."

 

57 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

And what will happen if it happens anyway without the Knights Radiant present and Honor about to die?

That's why they hid it in a place where nobody can access it. They did their best to assure she won't get out, no matter what. And it worked. They were faced with a dilemma - hoping BAM won't get out because of how well she is hidden, or be sure Radiants will eventually destroy Roshar. 

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

But as a spontaneous answer to which phenomenon?

Imprisonment of BAM which caused the mental death of the entire race of Singers and wounded everyone who belonged to Roshar, which all spren felt, just like the Sibling did. Either they saw what they'd done to Parsh, or they felt when BAM was imprisoned and realized what a terrible thing they'd done. RoW ch 49:

Quote

I have … been wounded. Thousands of years ago, something happened that changed the singers. It hurt me too. Navani covered her shock.
“You’re speaking of the binding of that Unmade, which made the singers lose their forms?”
Yes. That terrible act touched the souls of all who belong to Roshar. Spren too.

[Acolyte of Radiance]

Vasher was a surprise,but I think Ishar did something to use the storm fathers ability to speak yo manipulate Galivar,then at the end of the chapter relinquishes his hold and the storm father goes back to all caps.

im pretty sure 

Ishar-stromfather without the caps

storm father-speaks with  

[alder24]

41 minutes ago, Acolyte of Radiance said:

Vasher was a surprise,but I think Ishar did something to use the storm fathers ability to speak yo manipulate Galivar,then at the end of the chapter relinquishes his hold and the storm father goes back to all caps.

im pretty sure 

Ishar-stromfather without the caps

storm father-speaks with  

So in your opinion the real Stormfather said only two sentences in this entire chapter, saying only goodbye to Gavilar out of nowhere, ignoring everything that Gavilar was saying this whole night? This makes no sense at all. The quote with caps being bolded:

Quote

The biggest fool of them all, the Stormfather said. Goodbye, Gavilar. I have seen a glimpse of what is coming. I will not prevent it.

“What?” Gavilar demanded. “What is coming?”

Your legacy.

Even the real Stormfather was talking both with and without caps at the same time to Dalinar in WoR ch 82, 83:

Quote

“You’re dead,” Dalinar shouted toward the sky. He spun about, still on the central plateau between the three battlefields, startling the aides and attendants near him. “You told me you had been killed!”
Rain pelted his face. Were his ears playing tricks on him in this havoc of rain and shouting?
“I am not the Almighty,” the voice said. [...]
“I am sorry,” the voice repeated. Unlike in the visions, Dalinar could find no avatar speaking the words. They came out of nowhere. “You have striven hard. But I can do nothing for you.”
“Who are you?” Dalinar hissed.
“I am the one left behind,” the voice said. It wasn’t exactly as he’d heard it in the visions; this voice had a depth to it. A density. “I am the sliver of Him that remains. I saw His corpse, saw Him die when Odium murdered Him. And I . . . I fled. To continue as I always have. The piece of God left in this world, the winds that men must feel.”

[...]

“It should not end this way,” the Almighty said.
Storm it! Dalinar shoved Roion away and strode out into the center of the plateau, looking up toward the sky.
“Answer me! Let me know if you can hear me!”
“I can.”
Finally. Some progress.
“Are you the Almighty?”
“I said I am not, child of Honor.”
“Then what are you?”
I AM THAT WHICH BRINGS LIGHT AND DARKNESS. The voice took on more of a rumbling, distant quality.
[after this he speaks only in caps]

And in OB ch 34, during the first vision with Fen: 

Quote

It is time, the Stormfather said.
[...]
I HAVE HER. The Stormfather’s voice shook this place, eternal and vast. THE THAYLEN QUEEN. MY STORM HITS HER CITY NOW.
[...]
You will find difficulty getting useful answers, Son of Honor, the Stormfather rumbled. These do not have souls or minds. They are recreations forged by Honor’s will, and do not have the memories of the real people.

And in OB ch 38 the Stormfather is talking in italic to Dalinar's mind directly, but in caps to both Dalinar and Navani, which happened as well during their wedding in OB ch 4 (one quote is enough):

Quote

“Stormfather?” Dalinar said, addressing the spren. “This is what I told Jasnah it was, isn’t it? Aharietiam. The Last Desolation.”
That is what it was called.
“Include Navani in your responses,” Dalinar requested.
AGAIN, YOU MAKE DEMANDS OF ME. YOU SHOULD NOT DO THIS. The voice rumbled in the open air, and Navani jumped.

So we see the Stormfather doing the exact speech pattern with Dalinar, as he was doing with Gavilar. In most cases he speaks in italics to Dalinar's mind directly, but in caps if anyone else is involved, but we have at least two instances of the Stormfather speaking both normally and in caps just to Dalinar, the one from the battle of Narak in WoR is almost the same as it was with Gavilar - he was speaking without caps to Dalinar at first, then with caps at the end of their conversation. In my opinion using caps and italics as a distinction between the Stormfaker and the Stormfather makes no sense at all. 

[Rorzikel]

Does the stormfather even lie in the excerpt or does Gavilar merely assume and presume?

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Rorzikel said:

Does the stormfather even lie in the excerpt or does Gavilar merely assume and presume?

Three most obvious cases I can think of right now, without reading it all over again:

1). Gavilar assumed he was going to become a Herald, but the Stormfather denied it:

Quote

With them, he would become the Stormfather’s champion—and, he had deduced, something more. Gavilar suspected he would be accepted into the Oathpact and ascend beyond mortality.
[...]
I have not promised you this boon. You guess it is what I offer, but I seek only a champion. Still, tell me, would you accept the cost of becoming a Herald? Everyone you know would be dust by the time you returned.

 

2). Gavilar thought the Stormfather told him Heralds died and are in Damnation, but we've never seen the Stormfather say those words:

Quote

The little man didn’t know Gavilar had become familiar with the Stormfather, who had told him the truth: that the Heralds had all long since died and gone to Braize.

When confronted, the Stormfather didn't deny, however he told Gavilar "you assume too much." It's hard to say if that was something the Stormfather once told him, or if that was another assumption Gavilar made.

Quote

“Died?” Gavilar said. “Died. You said they were already dead! You said they were in Damnation!”
[...]
“You lied,” Gavilar said. “You lied?”
Oh, Gavilar. There is so much you do not know. So much you assume. And the two never do meet. Like paths to opposing cities.
[...]
The Stormfather could lie?
“Restares,” Gavilar whispered. “Is he… actually a Herald?”
Yes.

 

3). And apparently the Stormfather told Gavilar that spren can't lie - but as before, we haven't seen him saying those words.

Quote

Spren couldn’t lie. They couldn’t. He’d learned that… from the Stormfather.
Blood of my fathers, Gavilar thought as the Plate locked onto his legs. What else did it lie to me about?

 

Gavilar isn't trustworthy. We now know for certain that Gavilar assumed he was going to become a Herald, but the Stormfather told him otherwise. We can't trust Gavilar's claims about what other things the Stormfather told him, without hearing those words directly from the Stormfather. However I find it hard to believe that Gavilar just assumed everything, I think some of those things were told to him by the Stormfather - he lied, or at least misled him to make him falsely believe in such things. But it's hard to say what was that.

[Isilel]

Some belated thoughts:

P.S. but potentially very impactful - bad things were happening with BAM _before_ her imprisonment! This is huge. So apparently it wasn't _just_ about de-fanging the parsh. She was already crashing, with potentially dire consequences. And Kalak thinks that the Heralds(?) if that's who "we" applies to, betrayed her somehow?

I have been torn between Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow and Ishar as candidates for the Stormfaker since the draft reading a couple of years back, and now in this final version, I am convinced that it is the former. It never sat well with me that unlike all the other examples, a series of pre-recorded messages was supposed to constitute a CS. It makes much more sense IMHO, if there was a hidden personality within the Stormfather that occasionally took over. I also think that Tanavast was maskerading as Nahadon in the changed vision and sent Dalinar the dreams/visions that the SF is unaware of. Though, admittedly, that could also have been Cultivation.

 

Oh, and we have known since WoK prelude that Ishar can't feel a normal death of a Herald, since he was unsure of Kalak's survival after Aharietam. The Oathpact, however, was between the Heralds and Honor and Honor directly fuelled them, so there was a Connection that should have let him feel their deaths. I guess that Tanavast's CS still has it.

 

This being out of the way and apart from Vasher!!! that has been mentioned enough already, there are a few very intriguing tidbits:

 

"I thought... your family" -

 

Kholin family was, for some reason, particularly attractive to SF/Tanavast's CS, there is something special about them. Which may address the frequent complaint about so many of them becoming Radiants, which I somewhat share.

 

It is very odd that Gavilar doesn't consider Jasnah as anything other than Amaram's path to the throne. I mean, he inwardly aknowledges Navani's worth and thinks about involving her. But about his genius daughter and how she might be a valuable resource to exploit? Nothing.

 

I was also surprised by the complete absence of Aesudan. In OB and RoW prologue it seemed that she was working with Gavilar fairly closely and was aware of things which he seems to be keeping secret here. Though her impression that he was searching for an ancient spren appears to be false? Apparently, he wasn't on the looking for BAM train.

 

"They mustn't see... they mustn't know" -

 

is there something ominous that a Herald would learn by dying and going to Braize? Or would they even be drawn there, with the Oathpact as it is? Is it just the Everstorm, or is there something more?

 

But seriously, what's the deal with Vasher working for Gavilar, but then not giving anti-Voidlight to Our Protagonists once the Desolation actually started? I guess that he might have needed to figure out how to change stormlight into something that he could consume, rather than getting this ability via a deal with the Nightwatcher/Cultivation, as thought previously? So, he would have needed resources for his research and approached the king? Hm... not sure about this.

Edited August 3, 2024 by Isilel

[LewsTherinTelescope]

7 hours ago, Isilel said:

Though her impression that he was searching for an ancient spren appears to be false? Apparently, he wasn't on the looking for BAM train.

She might have known about the Stormfather, Gavilar has explained it to someone before:

Spoiler

He believed. Gavilar usually felt foolish when he tried to explain the true dangers that the Stormfather had shown him—the contest of champions for the fate of Roshar. He worried people would think him mad. Yet this man… believed him?

 

7 hours ago, Isilel said:

is there something ominous that a Herald would learn by dying and going to Braize? Or would they even be drawn there, with the Oathpact as it is?

Makes me think of the Stormfather's wording when speaking to Dalinar:

Spoiler

HE FINALLY BROKE, the Stormfather said. HE HAS JOINED THE NINE, WHO STILL LIVE. IN THESE MILLENNIA NONE HAVE EVER DIED AND RETURNED TO DAMNATION, BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER AS IT ONCE DID. THE OATHPACT HAS BEEN WEAKENED ALMOST TO ANNIHILATION, AND ODIUM HAS CREATED HIS OWN STORM. THE FUSED DO NOT RETURN TO DAMNATION WHEN KILLED. THEY ARE REBORN IN THE NEXT EVERSTORM.

 

[Nesh he/him]

I had a thought, that maybe it was Odium giving Gavilar the visions, and he was worried about a Herald dying, breaking and getting the word about the Everstorm out before it was ready.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

4 hours ago, Nesh said:

I had a thought, that maybe it was Odium giving Gavilar the visions, and he was worried about a Herald dying, breaking and getting the word about the Everstorm out before it was ready.

Why would he be upset at Gavilar mistreating the Honorblades, respect the Radiants who trapped Mishram, or abandon him because of his plan to give in and cause infinite war (not that Gavilar was actually going to be a Herald, but Stormfather seems to treat that mentality as the breaking point)?

[Nesh he/him]

5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Why would he be upset at Gavilar mistreating the Honorblades, respect the Radiants who trapped Mishram, or abandon him because of his plan to give in and cause infinite war (not that Gavilar was actually going to be a Herald, but Stormfather seems to treat that mentality as the breaking point)?

All good points.  It's not a theory to which I actually subscribe to, I believe it is the Stormfather.  It's just that the only new thing on at this point Braize is the Everstorm

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

On 8/3/2024 at 10:17 PM, Nesh said:

I had a thought, that maybe it was Odium giving Gavilar the visions, and he was worried about a Herald dying, breaking and getting the word about the Everstorm out before it was ready.

This was exactly what I was going to raise. His quote would make sense for Odium:

Quote

A Herald… a Herald has died… No. I am not ready… The Oathpact… No! They mustn’t see. They mustn’t know…

It seems like whoever this is wants to hide something from the Heralds. And my thought was if this was Odium, he doesn't have the Everstorm or other preparations fully ready yet. But I think the biggest strike against this theory is the reaction to Gavilar saying he would just let the war go on forever by immediately surrendering - whoever this is wants to end the war it seems like.

Now, maybe this is Cultivation and one of her plans is derailed by the Herald dying and that is why we get this "not ready" statement. We do see Cultivation make a few key moves almost in the immediate aftermath of this, both Taravangian and Dalinar's meetings with her are I believe quite soon after Gavilar dies. Maybe that is her doing some damage control.

[Jorr]

The more I reread this, the more it seems to me that the SF entity can't be Ishar. It just doesn't add up. Certainly we can imagine all sorts of means for Ishar to be able to do that but why? What is his motive? What agenda does it serve him to have a champion or a new herald or whatever? If that was Honor's plan and it was enshrined in the SF visions, why does Ishar want to meddle in that? He seems to want to prevent new Radiants at least insofar as Nale can be trusted. So why indulge or nudge Gavilar? Why the drastic change afterwards? Nothing in Gavilar's death has to affect Ishar, and neither should the possiblity of Chana going back to Braize do so. If Nale and Kalak are Ishar's agents (which they themselves claim all the time) then why doesn't the entity react in any way or do anything during all Gavilar's interactions with them? Why isn't there a plot that adds up?

Yes, there are red flags with the SF, in particular his panic at the Herald's death is extremely suspicious. But basically every other theory - Cultivation, Tanavast, Odium, even the real Stormfather, seems to have more credence than Ishar. I've read up on the super long thread from two years ago and all it seems to discuss is the means of Ishar to do that. Alright, but what is the motive and how does that make narrative sense?

[Erklitt]

On 9/6/2024 at 5:18 PM, Jorr said:

What is his motive? What agenda does it serve him to have a champion or a new herald or whatever?

For the herald option, it seems clear to me: he wants to replace himself with someone else in the oathpact to escape the torture.

I admit the switch from 'herald' to 'champion' makes that a little less likely, but I still think it possible that Ishar is now harping on the 'champion' idea only after having successfully nudged Gavilar into thinking he really means herald.
 

And if that is true, Chana's death changes a lot.

He thought he had enough time for his plans: after Taln has upheld the oathpact for so long, why shouldn't he continue to do so?

But with Chana's death, the next desolation is suddenly on the doorstep. Ishar is 'not ready': he doesn't have a replacement yet. And 'they mustn't see [or] know', because if [presumably the other heralds] knew, they'd probably come to him for guidance pretty soon, robbing him of the chance to surprise them with his successor and a relieved 'Too late, I'm out.'

 

As for Nale and Kelek being guided by Ishar, we have this WoB:

Quote

CCQ

I just read Edgedancer. I was just wondering... Did Ishar deceive Nalan on purpose or was he just wrong-- he had wrong information?

Brandon Sanderson

All the Heralds are insane.

CCQ

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

It manifests in different ways. Do not trust anything any Herald says. Ever.

CCQ

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

Nale trusts Ishar too much.

CCQ

Okay, but so did he do it on purpose, or...?

Brandon Sanderson

Um... So "on purpose" is a difficult thing when you're referring to someone with the psychology that Ishar has.

CCQ

Did he know what it was-- that it was a lie?

Brandon Sanderson

*sighs* Alright, I'll RAFO that until I get to him, but the answer is kind of a yes and a no. Okay? So there is part of him that knows and there is part of him that doesn't want to believe it. And yet the things he's been doing lately in Roshar are done because he knows what's coming.

Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)