Jorr

The more I reread this, the more it seems to me that the SF entity can't be Ishar. It just doesn't add up. Certainly we can imagine all sorts of means for Ishar to be able to do that but why? What is his motive? What agenda does it serve him to have a champion or a new herald or whatever? If that was Honor's plan and it was enshrined in the SF visions, why does Ishar want to meddle in that? He seems to want to prevent new Radiants at least insofar as Nale can be trusted. So why indulge or nudge Gavilar? Why the drastic change afterwards? Nothing in Gavilar's death has to affect Ishar, and neither should the possiblity of Chana going back to Braize do so. If Nale and Kalak are Ishar's agents (which they themselves claim all the time) then why doesn't the entity react in any way or do anything during all Gavilar's interactions with them? Why isn't there a plot that adds up? Yes, there are red flags with the SF, in particular his panic at the Herald's death is extremely suspicious. But basically every other theory - Cultivation, Tanavast, Odium, even the real Stormfather, seems to have more credence than Ishar. I've read up on the super long thread from two years ago and all it seems to discuss is the means of Ishar to do that. Alright, but what is the motive and how does that make narrative sense?

Oii! No offense meant, of course, but I mean... black smoke who makes its host more powerful...where's the punch in that??

I voted Dai-Gonarthis, as he's been built as a pretty mysterious figure. Granted, we know even less about Chemoarish but she doesn't feel as relevant as he does. Some place for changing minds about who's coolest but Yelig-nar is definitely the lamest one by a large margin

I wouldn't trust both Harmony's knowledge and Endowment herself, if her actions don't support it. Of course, Cultivation and Endowment may have planned nothing together - the text doesn't offer us any leads to that effect. However, it seems awfully convenient that a Vessel-killing weapon just happens to be created on Endowment's world after a supposed visit to Roshar by its creators and then this weapon somehow ends up in Cultivation's hands when one of those creators returns to Roshar. Okay, not jumping to conclusions, but...

It seems pretty obvious to me that Vasher basically served as a way for Endowment to bring about the creation of Nightblood and then hand it over to Cultuvation. It seems to have always been the plan they came up with. I wouldnt be surprised if Zahel showed up on Roshar just about the time Taravangian went to the Valley and Cultivation was able to create her pawn.

Okay but I don't remember spren being involved. Just the songs and the stones. Question is, these sound like the Surges, as clearly axial connection is manipulated, but is it SurgeBINDING...?

Why is nobody talking about the Singers being "forbidden to use the Surges", while also apparently stoneshaping entire cities?

Thanks guys, I think @Spren of Kindness has it right, the guy on the bottom right is definitely not having Lopen looks. And indeed Sigzil is darker skinned, Inshould have thought of that. Pity about Rlain. But I can finally put some face to Moash...

I know this is being silly but can someone please help me identify who's who on the poster (the one with the uniforms) I can't even place Moash.. although he's probably the scrawny guy with the translucent shardblade to the right of Kaladin. Teft is with the beard and I should guess Sigzil is the bottom-right most one. Renarin is up there and Rock is pretty obvious. But Rlain is missing and I can't quite place the others. I'm guessing the one to the immediate top-left of Kaladin is Lopen?

All of this is very confusing. It definitely doesnt make sense that some singers survived BAM's imprisonment to fight at Feverstone Keep (I dont buy Parallax's theory that Regals were unaffected, it just doesnt strike true - all singers except the listeners were Connected to her). At the same time, the imprisonment cant have happened after the Recreance because there no Radiants to do it. Something is fishy here, regardless of that WOB. The only possibility I see is that the Recreance WAS a protracted event and the Radiants at Feverstone (not necessarily their entire orders) were not part of the imprisonment. Why wasnt their act mentioned in the archives? Well, the archives also dont mention Honor rambling. Because... we are not seeing the full archive after all. We are seeing a couple of the entries.

I like this theory much better than the baby one, however it seems weird to me that it wouldnt be immediate surprise for Taravangian and hence mentioned in the text after his ascension.

Huh... thats super on point! I never realized Odium had worked both sides at the same time and Honor and Cultivation too had claimed both sides at the same time. Kudos! I would assume the switch went like this: - Odium seduced Ashynites with promises of power, luring Ishar (and others?) into experimenting with the Surges in a destructive manner. Not sure if Ashynites knew about H&C and whether they had any influence on Ashyn. - Humans escaped to Roshar. Not sure if Odium planned for or wanted that. Reagrdless, Honor saw this as an opportunity to take away from Odium's power. He spoke to the human leaders and offered them safe shelter, asking the singers to comply. - Honor and Cultivation became both revered by both humans and singers. Odium was present in the system but rejected by humanity due to what happened on Ashyn. - Proceeds as Leuthie points out. Some humans would of course continue to look to Odium for power and their voices would eventually find their way to seducing humans out of Shinovar. In the meantime Odium worked the singers secretly, fanning their sense of betrayal that land was taken by newcomers, and maybe he was even able to work on some of the spren to cause their gradual preference for humans instead of gemheart bonds. - Tensions escalated, Honor and Cultivation.tried to reconcile both parties but over the long run they lost the singers and were unable to curb human advance (this is the most dubious point seeing how they were infinitely powerful and should have been able to better influence humans but lets go to Shard limitations for that). - War broke out. Honor believed this could be quickly done with and by forcing Odium out of Roshar and on Braize, he could win back the singers. Odium outtricked him. The war went forver and the singers never lost their sense of betrayal.

This topic has some great insights but I have to say a couple of things still don't make any sense to me: - Nahel bond needs broken souls. How is that relevant for a girl of 4-5 years? OK, her parents were fighting but I mean, come on. - Why would the Cryptics choose A LITTLE GIRL for a bond. They could have literally chosen what, hundreds, thousands, millions of other people??? - What sorts of terrible truths will A LITTLE GIRL admit to her spren to earn the Third Ideal? Yes, the "solemn" ones from the quote but again, come on. This takes A LOT away from the other Radiants process to earn their Ideals if a little girl can reach so far. The entire thing seems like an afterthought. Very untypical for Brandon.

It's mentioned above but I would second that we shouldnt extrapolate Rosharan shenanigans to the Cosmere. Roshar is a planet whose fauna is historically and evolutionary related to sound and rhythm. There is absolutely no reason to assume that the effects of these sounds and rhythms on the LOCAL kind of investiture can be replicated to any other planet and investiture. Bottomline: perfect pitch people are not going to create anti-investiture across the cosmere.

While they are both not fain, it could be possible they were in contact with the fain ecosystem somehow

Thanks guys, you have raised really good objections and I have to admit my disappointment did somewhat subside. I think I can most buy @Wandering Investor's description of the situation and how it was presented on screen. With regards to some points, raised by @Lunu’anaki: - Hoid. I meant that in retrospect it didnt seem necessary for him to spend a zillion years trying to overmatch Rayse who didn't turn out quite a threat. Yes, Odium the Shard is a threat, but I strongly feel Hoid had a beef with Rayse in particular (I vaguely remember a personal story being the reason for this) and not the power of Odium, which he still views as a legitimate part of Adonalsium's self. Also, I beg to differ - Hoid certainly recognized that someone else had taken the shard in the epilogue. Unless you mean his erased memories, in which case - yes, but assuming this entire scene can be taken at face value at all, what with all the illusionst yada yada. - Renarin and the sword. Yes, Renarin shrouded Szeth but Rayse definitely cant have believed the sword is in Urithiru - he can just sense it not being there after all, and he also has in invasion force holding the tower, whose first task would be finding the sword. In fact, it was specifically mentioned by some of the singers that "the assasin" (i.e. the lightweaved version) is gone, all the more supposedly warning Odium to take care. ON TOP of this, what kind of a god steps into his own crafted vision with his own real body that can be killed? That was silly too. - My self-contradictory desription of Rayse's portrayal. Well, I don't see it that contradictory. My point was that his craftiness and underlying danger were big time hyped by other parties but ON SCREEN (i mean, page...) we always saw him as pretty pathetic.

I hear you, guys. I don't dispute that there are explanations for Rayse's sorry state. I am however of the opinion that Brandon didn't spend quite enough time deconstructing his myth and it feels abrupt and absurd, especially with regards to Hoid's storyline that is now cheapened substantially as apparently he spent too much time and energy fighting a non-threat. I don't dispute that T. will be interesting in the role and that this event opens funky doors for Brandon to work with the plot. It's just that all the "how can i fight a god, wait he's pretty human" thrown around came too fast. At no point were we intimidated by Rayse once he appeared in person. Again, contrast this with Ruin, whose presence was INCREDIBLY steong by comparison. Honestly, I count this as a weak point in Sanderson's storytelling. Not enough buildup for subverting the expectation and not enough rationalization for Hoid's crusade once it was subverted. And also, plot wise, it makes NO SENSE that Rayse didnt plan around the sword for the year or so its been with Szeth (assuming Cultuvation was even able to hide its presence beforehand).

So, seriously? How exactly is it that the man who has destroyed at least 4 other shards and whom an entity such as Hoid has spent eons to check, cross and warn about, can die in the dumbest possible way? Nightblood is clearly something that has been present on Roshar for more than an year and Szeth has spent a good time with it far from the presence of Renarin. Even if Rayse was unable to check the current whereabouts of the sword, certainly, CERTAINLY someone deemed the craftiest most dangerous individual in the Cosmere on top of his divine powers SHOULD have been able to prepare better for such a weapon or even make a play for it beforehand? Certainly having access to goddamn Terris worldhoppers for whatever reason who did his bidding in bringing the voidspren to the listeners would be a hint enough that he's pretty aware what's going on in the Cosmere or at least on Roshar AFTER the Everstorm arrived. This entire affair makes no sense and I struggle to understand how is it that this has been the epic twist Brandon has been wating to do for years. Even if Cultivation's got her game good, this still doesn't excuse Rayse's absolute ineptitude to present any real danger to any real party. He was consistently described - especially throughout this book, but also the previous one - as chaotic, insecure, borderline pathetic by regular humans whom he met. He failed time and time again not because his opponents were super brave and powerful (though they were) but ostensibly because he was overconfident, planned badly and was overall exhausted of just being. Why? What was Brandon's agenda with this characterization, juxtaposed against Hoid's crusade that basically defines the main Cosmere storyline? This is really confusing to me. I keep contrasting Rayse to Ruin who, while confined to just one planet and supposedly the lesser evil, felt like REAL danger. He felt inescapble. He crossed Vin and the crew at EVERY move, he was omniscient, omnipresent and had crafted a BRILLIANT plan, which just happened to fail because of some even smarter shenanigans by Preservation and some last-minute greatness by Marsh. THIS was real stakes where the desperate actions of humans actually managed to throw a stick in the rails of a real stakes inevitabilty that Ruin represented. In comparison, ever since he showed up in person, Rayse has seemed so pathetic and obviously inept, not just to the reader but even to his OWN minions and to his supposed adversaries. Dalinar and T. both comment on how human and frail he is. Vyre and Sja-Anat while nominally singing his praise in their thoughts behave as though they are actually much craftier than he is - and they probably damn are. So how is this the being whom the entire Cosmere was afraid of? That doesn't make any sense to me. And I keep wondering if this was on purpose, or Brandon was somehow unable to deliver his own vision. How did you feel about Rayse?

It seems fallacious to mix the facts that Ishar (a) experimented with Surges on Ashyn; (b) figure out how to transport humanity to Roshar; (c) became a Bondsmith only after humanity accepted Honor. Those things are unrelated and occured over some timespan, which is to say that it wasnt BONDSMITHS but ISHAR, at the time "merely" a completely unhinged surgebinder, who transported humanity. Therefore there is nothing here to suggest that Adhesion was used by humans before the Bondsmith Honorblade was created by Honor for Ishar.

Did a quick search on the forums but didn't find anything relevant, so if this has already been discussed, apologies The German edition of RoW is separated in two volumes (as they usually do) and while randomly browsing amazon.de, I just found out that the second part is called Tower of Lights (https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Brandon-Sanderson/dp/3453273249). What do you think that refers to? The cover art... could be anything. Obviously I was thinking: YES, THE SIBLING WILL REVIVE URITHURU! But would love to hear other ideas as well

I was also slightly bummed that despite all the goodness in Dawnshard, it didn't actually spill much beans on either the Scouring or the Aimians. The Siah got barely a mention by Cord and of the Dysians we did learn some motivation, minor history (i think they were confirmed to be non-native to Roshar quite some time ago) and minor biology details. The relationships between the two kinds of Aimians are still super unclear. We learnt here that people used to live on Aimia, which stands to reason since it was one of the Silver Kingdoms but what was the relationship between the people and the Aimians - still unclear. As to your actual theory - it is possible but I fail to see the exact reasoning... what made them change the plan in the first place? Was the Dawnshard employed before the Scouring and it was only necessry because the owner died/relinquished it? Doesnt necessarily add up.

Seems to me Moash is more likely

I think the words about the spren on the Eila Stele are about the spren being attracted to humans, not about the Nahel bond that has not been a thing before the Heralds made the Oathpact. I like @Gilphon's line of thinking but I believe you are all forgetting that: a. the people of Ashyn were a highly advanced civilization, at least in terms of working with investiture, they certainly could easily have had lifetimes spanning 200+ years. b. the Heralds, or a part of them, or many more humans, carried those Dawnshards that were supposed to have destroyed Ashyn - surely it's easy to assume they also had effects on longevity and health. In short, the events that led to the Oathpact DID simultanteously happen in a lifetime, AND in 200 years - humans were more long-lived than they are now, or at least the Heralds were. Whether that was unique to them, common across Ashynites, or a property of the Dawnshards, remains to be seen.

I for one am with you, Philomath Guilt is dependent on intent. Claiming otherwise would mean loose stones, avalanches or diseases can be guilty just by causing death. But guilt is meaningless without human context and this is why it's intent that matters, not causation. Dalinar bears guilt for the innocent lives he decided to destroy (considering of course the effect of the Thrill). But he does not bear guilt for Evi.

Thanks, I just did that