Atium is Better than Lerasium

[Trusk'our]

Yup, I said it; Atium (the pure, non-alloyed form) is better than Lerasium. 

Or, at least it has a far greater potential, in my opinion. 

Both God Metals are quite useful in their own right; Atium can be used to see and comprehend the SR while Lerasium allows you to make permanent changes to your Spiritweb. 

And I think most people see Lerasium as the superior metal because it grants permanent, powerful Invested abilities with pretty much no downside, while Atium is used up in a flash.

I used to think this way too until I realized something; Atium gives knowledge and comprehension. That means a lot, I believe. 

What's a Dawnshard's biggest power? Granting the knowledge and comprehension of a deity.

And so, I think pure Atium may be able to do something similar, though on a smaller scale.

Want to use a highly, highly advanced Awakening Command to, oh, say recreate Nightblood? Atium vision grants you the knowledge and ability to use it.

Want to know how to Bondsmith your way to Ascension? Atium. Boom. Knowledge. 

Want to know how to Forge yourself into a only borderline possible yet much more powerful version of yourself? Atium again. 

Want to know how to crack Hemalurgic Compounding, add multiple Hemalurgic charges or powers in a single spike, add more than 5 spikes to a person, evade the Flaw, add +500 IQ via Hemalurgic copper (while remaining somewhat human), or otherwise rewrite a Spiritweb in literally any way you want? You probably know by now; Atium. 

Even if you don't have another form of Investiture as your disposal to gain insight into, you could learn the next leap in technological advancement for your civilization (with you owning its patented rights,  of course), know what to do regarding a close personal matter, or simply gain a greater insight into how the Cosmere works.

Have I convinced anyone else to join team Atium over team Lerasium yet?

Edit: Hmm, I get the feeling that people are voting without actually checking my argument. . . 

Edited April 14 by Trusk'our

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

Yup, I said it; Atium (the pure, non-alloyed form) is better than Lerasium. 

Or, at least it has a far greater potential, in my opinion. 

Both God Metals are quite useful in their own right; Atium can be used to see and comprehend the SR while Lerasium allows you to make permanent changes to your Spiritweb. 

And I think most people see Lerasium as the superior metal because it grants permanent, powerful Invested abilities with pretty much no downside, while Atium is used up in a flash.

I used to think this way too until I realized something; Atium gives knowledge and comprehension. That means a lot, I believe. 

What's a Dawnshard's biggest power? Granting the knowledge and comprehension of a deity.

And so, I think pure Atium may be able to do something similar, though on a smaller scale.

Want to use a highly, highly advanced Awakening Command to, oh, say recreate Nightblood? Atium vision grants you the knowledge and ability to use it.

Want to know how to Bondsmith your way to Ascension? Atium. Boom. Knowledge. 

Want to know how to Forge yourself into a only borderline possible yet much more powerful version of yourself? Atium again. 

Want to know how to crack Hemalurgic Compounding, add multiple Hemalurgic charges or powers in a single spike, add more than 5 spikes to a person, evade the Flaw, add +500 IQ via Hemalurgic copper (while remaining somewhat human), or otherwise rewrite a Spiritweb in literally any way you want? You probably know by now; Atium. 

Even if you don't have another form of Investiture as your disposal to gain insight into, you could learn the next leap in technological advancement for your civilization (with you owning its patented rights,  of course), know what to do regarding a close personal matter, or simply gain a greater insight into how the Cosmere works.

Have I convinced anyone else to join team Atium over team Lerasium yet?

Edit: Hmm, I get the feeling that people are voting without actually checking my argument. . . 

I voted Lerasium simply because it does give a power. But even that is a side effect.

The whole RAFO thing doesn't convince me either. Sure atium could be more powerful than lerasium but... 

If you put 2 pieces of metal in front of me and told me one would make me a mistborn as a side effect to what it really does, which we don't know, and was a part of Preservation... and the other was a part of Ruin and also had no knowledge of what it did and the potential side effects, well I'm going to choose the piece of metal that belonged to the shard of Preservation instead of Ruin. 

Sure it is a selfish choice, but I don't want to be turned into a monster or turned into a big pile of mush.  

What we know of God metals in allomancy and feruchemy is that we know almost nothing of God metals in allomancy and feruchemy haha. We have seen one grant the ability to become mistborn and heal a pretty gruesome wound. We have seen one that explodes everytime it gets wet. I just don't want to be the guinea pig to find out.  

I won't judge atium to the point of saying it doesn't have any potential but in this moment right now... I choose lerasium everytime. I know I will become a lerasium mistborn and that is more than enough for me. 

Knowledge is cool. But what if you burn that metal and get the answer to everything just as your body turns to Ruin and you perish? The shards intent is a pretty big deal I think and that is a risky risky move playing with the body of someone who wants to see everything destroyed. 

That is the biggest difference in the Scadrial and Roshar conflicts we have seen. Odium is a big bad and is spooky with his hate and such... but Ruin. Ruin didnt care about anything. His only desire was for Scadrial to be consumed and everyone on it. The apocalypse that Scadrial faced was a much different beast than the one Roshar faces and I think that says a lot about how much you can trust Ruins intent. His entire magic system is based around mutilating people until he can control them, then use them as puppets of destruction... and once they kill everything he would have most likely discarded them as well. 

 

[Trusk'our]

59 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I voted Lerasium simply because it does give a power. But even that is a side effect.

The whole RAFO thing doesn't convince me either. Sure atium could be more powerful than lerasium but... 

If you put 2 pieces of metal in front of me and told me one would make me a mistborn as a side effect to what it really does, which we don't know, and was a part of Preservation... and the other was a part of Ruin and also had no knowledge of what it did and the potential side effects, well I'm going to choose the piece of metal that belonged to the shard of Preservation instead of Ruin. 

Eh, fair enough. I still think Atium may truly have more potential, but Lerasium is pretty great, especially if alloying it to cherry pick and double or triple up on good powers is an option. 

Also, don't we know about what Atium does too? The Allomancy table says it gives an expanded vision of the SR with added ability to process and remember such knowledge. 

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Sure it is a selfish choice, but I don't want to be turned into a monster or turned into a big pile of mush.  

It doesn't have to be selfish; you could still use Lerasium to do great good.

Also, you could pull a Spook and have thirteen kids to reintroduce potent Allomancy to Scadrial's population 

As for the mush thing, you don't have to use Hemalurgy with it. Knowledge is Atium's core function, so other (inferior ) options would be available too.

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

 Knowledge is cool. But what if you burn that metal and get the answer to everything just as your body turns to Ruin and you perish? The shards intent is a pretty big deal I think and that is a risky risky move playing with the body of someone who wants to see everything destroyed. 

Doesn't Investiture generally aid and boost the practitioner instead of damage them though?

I mean, okay, Hemalurgy is kind of a bad example for this (though even it preserves your life by rearranging organs and such), but Mistborn had no issues with Burning Atium/electrum alloys for centuries. 

[JustQuestin2004]

I'd choose Lerasium, because not only do you get all Allomantic powers, but you can Burn Electrum and Duralumin to look into the Spiritual Realm, like how Elend looked into it at the end of HoA with Atium and Duralumin.

Probably not to the same level as Pure Atium but it'd still provide a similar effect. 

[Pineap-spider]

Atium is really hard to get, and as you mentioned, it burns super quick. To not only practice to get to a level where you can use atium as you said, but to have enough to do it too? Learasium gives you full Mistborn powers. That includes Atium, but also access to all the new metals in Era 2. You offer me the 2, I take Lerasium, beat you up and steal the Atium. Atium is very limited, even in pure form. I just can't see this working out how you describe it.

[Sophrosyne]

If you already have some form of power you are 100% correct. If I’m a surgebinder spiritual understanding of my power is a game changer, same if I was a pewter misting or a real estate tycoon. BUT if you’re a normal person,then becoming mistborn as a side effect is just too tempting to pass. Information is only useful from positions of power. Thus. IF I had any other form of power I pick Atium, If I don’t, and I don’t I pick lerasium.

 Note I think this changes if it’s large amounts of the metal, If I got “one bead a day for the rest of my life. I think I’d take atuim. But even then that much lerasium means you become SUPREMELY influential in a matter of months.

(reads Tamriel’s replay) .. (Rember’s the WoB where becoming a god metal savant makes you the shard bearer.)
Actually, I’d pick lerasium to receive one be of a day no arguments.

[Isilel]

5 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

 

Want to know how to crack Hemalurgic Compounding, add multiple Hemalurgic charges or powers in a single spike, add more than 5 spikes to a person, evade the Flaw, add +500 IQ via Hemalurgic copper (while remaining somewhat human), or otherwise rewrite a Spiritweb in literally any way you want? You probably know by now; Atium. 

Except that we know that TLR, who had free access to atium and a millennium to experiment, hadn't been able to come up with any new applications of hemalurgy. Which suggests that using it to gain knowledge is much trickier than you propose. 

At the very least, judging by Elend, you'd need lots and lots of atium _and_ duralumin allomancy. 

[therunner]

As @Isilel said, TLR had millenium, and already had Realmatic knowledge from his time being a Sliver, and was unable to do anything you proposed.

And he wanted to create more hemalurgic constructs, so he would have motivation to try and leverage Atium if he could.
He did not even discover all the standard allomantic metals, despite their usefulness.

So yeah, I think you have knowledge in the moment of burning, and something is left over, but not nearly enough to properly act on it.

Edit: Additionally, Pure Atium is specifically called out as granting knowledge of future, not of SR in general. Nor does it say anything about granting comprehension. It only enhances the mind to be able to make sense of what they are seeing, because future is not set, so Pure Atium would show you multiple branches at once (which would certainly require enhanced mind to process, understand and hold).

So yeah, I don't think Pure Atium can be used to gain any kind of knowledge like you posit, only very specifically knowledge about future events, and impacts of your (or others) choices on those futures.

Edited April 14 by therunner

[alder24]

9 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Yup, I said it; Atium (the pure, non-alloyed form) is better than Lerasium. 

Or, at least it has a far greater potential, in my opinion. 

Both God Metals are quite useful in their own right; Atium can be used to see and comprehend the SR while Lerasium allows you to make permanent changes to your Spiritweb. 

And I think most people see Lerasium as the superior metal because it grants permanent, powerful Invested abilities with pretty much no downside, while Atium is used up in a flash.

I used to think this way too until I realized something; Atium gives knowledge and comprehension. That means a lot, I believe. 

What's a Dawnshard's biggest power? Granting the knowledge and comprehension of a deity.

And so, I think pure Atium may be able to do something similar, though on a smaller scale.

Want to use a highly, highly advanced Awakening Command to, oh, say recreate Nightblood? Atium vision grants you the knowledge and ability to use it.

Want to know how to Bondsmith your way to Ascension? Atium. Boom. Knowledge. 

Want to know how to Forge yourself into a only borderline possible yet much more powerful version of yourself? Atium again. 

Want to know how to crack Hemalurgic Compounding, add multiple Hemalurgic charges or powers in a single spike, add more than 5 spikes to a person, evade the Flaw, add +500 IQ via Hemalurgic copper (while remaining somewhat human), or otherwise rewrite a Spiritweb in literally any way you want? You probably know by now; Atium. 

Even if you don't have another form of Investiture as your disposal to gain insight into, you could learn the next leap in technological advancement for your civilization (with you owning its patented rights,  of course), know what to do regarding a close personal matter, or simply gain a greater insight into how the Cosmere works.

Have I convinced anyone else to join team Atium over team Lerasium yet?

Edit: Hmm, I get the feeling that people are voting without actually checking my argument. . . 

Disagree. Atium shows you the future, not knowledge directly, just the future and gives you the ability to comprehend it. Just because you want something doesn't mean it will happen in your future - all you might see is that you will never achieve what you're looking for. It's not knowledge you gain, it's the future which becomes open to you, thus providing you with information to make a decision at the right moment. But Atium will NOT give you the precise way and words of the Command to Awaken another Nightblood, it may ONLY show you the way to achieve that among thousands of possible ways where you won't do that, if it's even possible for you. But then we don't know to what extend Atium shows you the future, or rather whose future Atium shows you - yours like electrum does, someone else's like Atium-electrum alloy, or both? This detail might make it more restrictive.

 

Seeing the future is powerful and very dangerous, not just for your opponents but for you as well. Relying on your own future sight too much will blind you and will eventually cause your downfall, as you will for sure miss a possibility, or your vision will be clouded by someone else's future sight. We've seen this multiple times in books, the future is not set in metal and seeing it doesn't make you invincible, nor will your wishes come true. It takes an infinite mind to comprehend what you see, Atium brings you nowhere near that level, even Shards are short of if and they've been misled by their own future sight on many occasions. Relying too much on a fragile and distant maybe is very risky. Too risky. 

That's why I will choose Lerasium - not just for Mistborn powers, but for the ability to modify my spirit web. That's more powerful than an uncertain and distant possibility once seen with Atium. 

[JustQuestin2004]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Disagree. Atium shows you the future, not knowledge directly, just the future and gives you the ability to comprehend it. Just because you want something doesn't mean it will happen in your future - all you might see is that you will never achieve what you're looking for. It's not knowledge you gain, it's the future which becomes open to you, thus providing you with information to make a decision at the right moment. But Atium will NOT give you the precise way and words of the Command to Awaken another Nightblood, it may ONLY show you the way to achieve that among thousands of possible ways where you won't do that, if it's even possible for you. But then we don't know to what extend Atium shows you the future, or rather whose future Atium shows you - yours like electrum does, someone else's like Atium-electrum alloy, or both? This detail might make it more restrictive.

 

Seeing the future is powerful and very dangerous, not just for your opponents but for you as well. Relying on your own future sight too much will blind you and will eventually cause your downfall, as you will for sure miss a possibility, or your vision will be clouded by someone else's future sight. We've seen this multiple times in books, the future is not set in metal and seeing it doesn't make you invincible, nor will your wishes come true. It takes an infinite mind to comprehend what you see, Atium brings you nowhere near that level, even Shards are short of if and they've been misled by their own future sight on many occasions. Relying too much on a fragile and distant maybe is very risky. Too risky. 

That's why I will choose Lerasium - not just for Mistborn powers, but for the ability to modify my spirit web. That's more powerful than an uncertain and distant possibility once seen with Atium. 

Honestly the best use for any Future-Sight in the Cosmere is just to mess up everyone else's. That or in a small-scale scenario, like regular atium, since seeing only a few seconds into the future is still a devastating ability in a fight, just don't get reliant on it and always keep its limits in mind, you wouldn't want to get ganked like Zane after all.

[bmcclure7]

17 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Yup, I said it; Atium (the pure, non-alloyed form) is better than Lerasium. 

Or, at least it has a far greater potential, in my opinion. 

Both God Metals are quite useful in their own right; Atium can be used to see and comprehend the SR while Lerasium allows you to make permanent changes to your Spiritweb. 

And I think most people see Lerasium as the superior metal because it grants permanent, powerful Invested abilities with pretty much no downside, while Atium is used up in a flash.

I used to think this way too until I realized something; Atium gives knowledge and comprehension. That means a lot, I believe. 

What's a Dawnshard's biggest power? Granting the knowledge and comprehension of a deity.

And so, I think pure Atium may be able to do something similar, though on a smaller scale.

Want to use a highly, highly advanced Awakening Command to, oh, say recreate Nightblood? Atium vision grants you the knowledge and ability to use it.

Want to know how to Bondsmith your way to Ascension? Atium. Boom. Knowledge. 

Want to know how to Forge yourself into a only borderline possible yet much more powerful version of yourself? Atium again. 

Want to know how to crack Hemalurgic Compounding, add multiple Hemalurgic charges or powers in a single spike, add more than 5 spikes to a person, evade the Flaw, add +500 IQ via Hemalurgic copper (while remaining somewhat human), or otherwise rewrite a Spiritweb in literally any way you want? You probably know by now; Atium. 

Even if you don't have another form of Investiture as your disposal to gain insight into, you could learn the next leap in technological advancement for your civilization (with you owning its patented rights,  of course), know what to do regarding a close personal matter, or simply gain a greater insight into how the Cosmere works.

Have I convinced anyone else to join team Atium over team Lerasium yet?

Edit: Hmm, I get the feeling that people are voting without actually checking my argument. . . 

  You're making a lot of assumptions namely that we know what Atum unadulterated does.  We have no guarantee that has anything to actually do  Into the spiritual realm. 

 All we know so far is that when combined with alomantic metal  It reverses the target. So electrum  Combined with atium causes you to see the future of others instead of yourself.. Combining it with gold allows you to see the past others instead of yourself. presumably is the same for all alomatic metals. 

Edited April 14 by bmcclure7

[Rorzikel]

I've never been convinced that just because Atium is a godmetal that it has to be equally powerful as Lerasium, not anymore than supposing that all allomantic abilities must be equally useful as mistings, but electrum-atium is already a gamechanger in combat situations. I expect that pure Atium would follow suit, perhaps allowing the user to cut through other forms of precog and Fortune.

[TwinSouls]

@Trusk'our

you haven’t convinced me, I was already on your side

Atium is better.

[RoyalBeeMage]

@Trusk'our if it will make you happier I believe that the 11th metal (atium+gold) would be an insanely useful tool when creating soul stamps for other people. 
 

However leresium+gold would be a great help for personal soul stamps…

[alder24]

22 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

You're making a lot of assumptions namely that we know what Atum unadulterated does.  We have no guarantee that has anything to actually do  Into the spiritual realm. 

All we know so far is that when combined with alomantic metal  It reverses the target. So electrum  Combined with atium causes you to see the future of others instead of yourself.. Combining it with gold allows you to see the past others instead of yourself. presumably is the same for all alomatic metals. 

We do know what pure Atium does - it was written on the Allomantic table. Pure Atium grants expansive vision of the future and enhances one's mind to process that information. Even in WoBs it was stated that we've seen the same effect when Elend burns Atium-electrum alloy with duralumin; pure Atium does the same thing. It pulls you into SR allowing you to see the future in its fullest.

https://coppermind.net/w/images/Table_of_Allomantic_Metals.jpeg

Spoiler

/u/AAKS_

My understanding is that Brandon thinks it is a plothole that Lerasium can be burned by Scadrian (regardless of if they are mistings/mistborn) but Atium can't.

His solution is to retcon the Pits to naturally produce an Atium/Electrum alloy, presumably by the design of Preservation. Therefore we don't know what pure Atium looks like or does when used in any magic.

Peter Ahlstrom

We do know what it does. It’s on the Allomancy poster, and the effect appeared one time at the end of Hero of Ages.

LewsTherinTelescope

Interesting. Do you know if he had already conceived the retcon by the time the poster was written, or if that line about pure atium just turned out to fit really well retroactively?

Peter Ahlstrom

The retcon is way older than a lot of people assume.

LewsTherinTelescope

Does this mean he had it in mind by the time Hero of Ages released (since the first public version of the poster dates to 2008), or just that it's old but not sure exactly how old?

Peter Ahlstrom

Remember that what's in the books is filtered through the understanding of the characters. So even if Brandon planned it from the beginning, if the characters didn't know about it, it's not going to come out in the book.

And see this thread reply from 2009.

Footnote: The link is to a post on the Timewaster's Guide forums, where Peter responds to someone asking about whether atium is an alloy by saying he now knows enough to confirm or deny the theory, but is not allowed to.
General Reddit 2022 (Dec. 4, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Argent

Can somebody travel to the Spiritual Realm, the same as the Cognitive?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but it's a very different experience. It is possible… You may have seen people do it...

Argent

As in you're not sure, or you're being obnoxiously vague?

Brandon Sanderson

No...

Questioner #1

As in, you probably have but he's having trouble remembering it.

Brandon Sanderson

No no no... For instance, Elend burning atium and duralumin pulled most of him into the Spiritual Realm.

Argent

Oh, that's what happens there.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. He kind of got yanked into- You also have seen people Ascend with the powers and dip into the Spiritual Realm for a little bit.

Argent

So, Vin?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. But they could be on both, or either, or both at the same time. But you have seen Vin stick into the Spiritual Realm. And it happened to Sazed/Harmony...

Questioner #2

Oh! So is that where the gods live? Kinda?

Brandon Sanderson

Most of the bulk of the Shard's energy of being is contained in the Spiritual Realm, yes. Except for one notable exception!

Questioner #2

The <mists? mistwraith?>?

Brandon Sanderson

No.

Footnote: We now know that the "one notable exception" Brandon refers to at the end is the Dor, which is mostly contained in the Cognitive Realm.
Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

 

[Duxredux]

Now this could be general propaganda or conditioning from holding Preservation, but I'm remembering the very beginning of M:SH where Leras tells Kelsier that one shouldn't trust Ati's essence even in a diluted form. We also know that Ruin helped orchestrate the demise of TLR so... I'm a bit suspicious of trusting the knowledge gained from Ruin's power. Hopping over to Roshar, Renarin seemed to be able to see Odium's visions of the future and saw Dalinar as the champion of nine shadows and his own death at Jasnah's hands. This wasn't a controlled vision, it was probably linked to his old epileptic seizures, and it didn't show Renarin's desired outcomes but apparently Odium's goals. So... how confident are you that the future glimpsed from the SR that you are trying to discern is really according to your wishes? Did Ruin nudge Zane to choose the wrong Atium shadow to keep Vin alive when Vin managed to split the Atium shadow? Granted that may have been from Hemalurgic influence and not solely Atium's power, but we also saw Vin fight 2 Mistborn and a squad of Mistings alone when she killed Shan Elariel. I do wonder if that wasn't just pure skill on her part while wearing a Hemalurgic spike and burning Atium against a more experienced Atium burner. Vin's major triumphs over others while burning Atium seem to be directly supportive of Ruin's escape with her survival as a nice side effect. Be wary of anyone claiming to know the future. Advice from Hoid, so take it for what it's worth.

Beyond that, I expect burning Atium to impart a substantial portion of Ruin's Intent into my soul. It seems like no accident that Electrum/Atium alloys optimize you for close-combat killing. Maybe Malatium tries to let you pinpoint and identify the target's weaknesses based on personal history, though we rarely see it used (and didn't get much info on the Inquisitor). It wouldn't surprise me at all if it's technically possible to seek out constructive use-cases for the vision granted by Atium, but that the default is destructive or negatively competitive in nature. Even Elend's glimpse into the SR ended with him choosing to get axed. If combat, dominance, and destruction of your enemies is the main objective, then yes, Atium is your friend. If those elements aren't a core piece of your agenda, then I recommend being very careful. In the right usage, we saw Yomen as an almost normal human outmaneuvering Vin as one of the most skilled Mistborn ever seen, so yes, it can be very powerful with applied foresight or peeks into the SR.

I end with: highly risky, have someone who can see Spiritwebs or Connections confirm what Ruin's essence is doing to your soul before committing to large-scale consumption. In the right scenario it can prove more pivotal than Lerasium, particularly when it was a renewable resource, but not one I would recommend using lightly.

[+robardin]

Poll is meaningless without context. Are we talking about "you, as regular person, would you ingest lerasium or atium?" or "which metal is more useful in the Cosmere?"

All the mention in the OP about insta-gaining deep Realmatic knowledge and how to apply it suggests the first one, and I would question that that would be the result of ingesting atium.

Look, burning "pure atium" (now that FE era atium has been essentially retconned into an atium-electrum alloy), the god-metal of Ruin, can't possibly do more - at the very most - than to give you the "future sight and ability to process it" that Ati the Vessel of Ruin possessed full-time, except just for the duration of burning it.

Right?

And even if you did... If you could become as the full Shard of Ruin, knowledge-wise if not power-wise, for just a few seconds by burning it... That doesn't mean you'd retain all of that after it was gone (a la Taravangian after his Day Of Brilliance in Stormlight Archive).

...Ati still got tricked and defeated by Leras' long game, at the hands of Kelsier, Vin, and Marsh, despite the full future vision from the shard of Ruin held for thousands of years, plus his active and subtle machination over a lot of that time, plus whispering things into Rashek's ear, etc.

In short, if you are an ordinary mortal human given the choice between ingesting a bead of pure lerasium vs. a bead of pure atium, based on what we know or can infer as to the results, take the lerasium and become Mistborn.

But, if you are a well-backed, Realmatically knowledgeable worldhopper type human with "industrial purposes" for pure atium, like the knowledge and ability to leverage it into making a bunch of supremely flexible hemalurgic spikes that you have specific plans for using... That's different.

Edited April 15 by robardin

[QuantumAce]

24 minutes ago, robardin said:

All the mention in the OP about insta-gaining deep Realmatic knowledge and how to apply it suggests the first one, and I would question that that would be the result of ingesting atium

...

But, if you are a well-backed, Realmatically knowledgeable worldhopper type human with "industrial purposes" for pure atium, like the knowledge and ability to leverage it into making a bunch of supremely flexible hemalurgic spikes that you have specific plans for using... That's different.

So all we have to do is assume pure atium can be used to insta gain deep realmatic knowledge and how to apply it, and that we already have a lot of realmatic knowledge and experience applying it.

Seems simple enough. 

[+robardin]

12 minutes ago, QuantumAce said:

So all we have to do is assume pure atium can be used to insta gain deep realmatic knowledge and how to apply it, and that we already have a lot of realmatic knowledge and experience applying it.

Seems simple enough. 

Exactly. It's a pretty big assumption for a poll!

[bmcclure7]

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

We do know what pure Atium does - it was written on the Allomantic table. Pure Atium grants expansive vision of the future and enhances one's mind to process that information. Even in WoBs it was stated that we've seen the same effect when Elend burns Atium-electrum alloy with duralumin; pure Atium does the same thing. It pulls you into SR allowing you to see the future in its fullest.

https://coppermind.net/w/images/Table_of_Allomantic_Metals.jpeg

  Reveal hidden contents

/u/AAKS_

My understanding is that Brandon thinks it is a plothole that Lerasium can be burned by Scadrian (regardless of if they are mistings/mistborn) but Atium can't.

His solution is to retcon the Pits to naturally produce an Atium/Electrum alloy, presumably by the design of Preservation. Therefore we don't know what pure Atium looks like or does when used in any magic.

Peter Ahlstrom

We do know what it does. It’s on the Allomancy poster, and the effect appeared one time at the end of Hero of Ages.

LewsTherinTelescope

Interesting. Do you know if he had already conceived the retcon by the time the poster was written, or if that line about pure atium just turned out to fit really well retroactively?

Peter Ahlstrom

The retcon is way older than a lot of people assume.

LewsTherinTelescope

Does this mean he had it in mind by the time Hero of Ages released (since the first public version of the poster dates to 2008), or just that it's old but not sure exactly how old?

Peter Ahlstrom

Remember that what's in the books is filtered through the understanding of the characters. So even if Brandon planned it from the beginning, if the characters didn't know about it, it's not going to come out in the book.

And see this thread reply from 2009.

Footnote: The link is to a post on the Timewaster's Guide forums, where Peter responds to someone asking about whether atium is an alloy by saying he now knows enough to confirm or deny the theory, but is not allowed to.
General Reddit 2022 (Dec. 4, 2022)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Argent

Can somebody travel to the Spiritual Realm, the same as the Cognitive?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but it's a very different experience. It is possible… You may have seen people do it...

Argent

As in you're not sure, or you're being obnoxiously vague?

Brandon Sanderson

No...

Questioner #1

As in, you probably have but he's having trouble remembering it.

Brandon Sanderson

No no no... For instance, Elend burning atium and duralumin pulled most of him into the Spiritual Realm.

Argent

Oh, that's what happens there.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. He kind of got yanked into- You also have seen people Ascend with the powers and dip into the Spiritual Realm for a little bit.

Argent

So, Vin?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. But they could be on both, or either, or both at the same time. But you have seen Vin stick into the Spiritual Realm. And it happened to Sazed/Harmony...

Questioner #2

Oh! So is that where the gods live? Kinda?

Brandon Sanderson

Most of the bulk of the Shard's energy of being is contained in the Spiritual Realm, yes. Except for one notable exception!

Questioner #2

The <mists? mistwraith?>?

Brandon Sanderson

No.

Footnote: We now know that the "one notable exception" Brandon refers to at the end is the Dor, which is mostly contained in the Cognitive Realm.
Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

 

 Wrong we don't, That table is an in world document. And is therefore an unreliable Narrator. People in the cosmeto do not know that Atiums is not Atium   But instead Atium alloied with electrum.

 

 As for what happened with  Elend,  That has been reconed.  None of the Atium we see in Arizona was real atium.

Edited April 15 by bmcclure7

[alder24]

15 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Wrong we don't, That table is an in world document. And is therefore an unreliable Narrator. People in the cosmeto do not know that Atiums is not Atium   But instead Atium alloied with electrum. 

 As for what happened with  Elend,  That has been reconed.  None of the Atium we see in Arizona was real atium.

This table literally differentiates between pure Atium and its alloys. And you just ignored the WoB I've given to you which quite definitely prove that what Elend experienced IS the same effect pure Atium gives you and that the table IS talking about the real pure Atium effect. That was already after the retcon happened, Peter clearly stated that it is older than people assume in that WoB. Did you even read it? 

Edited April 16 by alder24

[bmcclure7]

10 hours ago, alder24 said:

This table literally differentiates between pure Atium and its alloys. And you just ignored the WoB I've given to you which quite definitely prove that what Elend experienced IS the same effect pure Atium gives you and that the table IS talking about the real pure Atium effect. That was already after the retcon happened, Peter clearly stated that it is older than people assume in that WoB. Did you even read it? 

 That wasn't a wob since it wasn't by Brandon.  Why would burning  Atium alloy   Give you the atium.  That doesn't make sense with the magic system has revealed. Is none of the other alloys behave that way when bured with d. 

Edited April 16 by bmcclure7

[alder24]

39 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

That wasn't a wob since it wasn't by Brandon. 

So it's a WoP, equally definitive on this matter as Peter worked with Brandon on the Atium retcon. He knows what Brandon knows about the effects of pure Atium in comparison with Atium-electrum alloy (which was HIS idea). Another WoP for you:

Spoiler

Xais56

Brandon has said that everyone ought to be able to burn Atium, like they can all burn Lerasium, and the fact that they can't was an oversight on his part that he would've done different in hindsight.

Maybe now he's had an in-universe reason to re-write the laws of allomancy it's back to his intended concept; Mistborn burn all 16 base metals, mistings burn one base metal, non-allomancers can only burn godmetal.

Peter Ahlstrom

My explanation for this is that Preservation somehow caused all naturally occurring atium to form as an alloy of atium and electrum. The atium Mistings were actually electrum Mistings.

Xais56

It's a very tidy solution, but it creates the maddening question of what does pure atium do?

Peter Ahlstrom

That answer has already been revealed canonically. RAFO.

Footnote: It has since been clarified that the effect was revealed on the Table of Allomantic Metals poster and seen at the end of The Hero of Ages.
General Reddit 2021 (Nov. 2, 2021)

 

39 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Why would burning  Atium alloy   Give you the atium.  That doesn't make sense with the magic system has revealed.

It doesn't, Atium alloy brings you a far more inferior version of the future sight, pure Atium lets you see it all. It's not the same, not even in slightest. Pure Atium is much stronger than Atium-electrum alloy and it allows you to peer straight into the SR, while the alloy needs help from duralumin to achieve that. 

Spoiler

Wigginns

What would a Hemalurgic spike granting atium do for an Allomancer already able to burn atium? Does it function similarly to bronze, granting enhanced atium-ing? Along this line of thought, would enhancing electrum burning via spike be of any advantage?

Brandon Sanderson

A spike of something you have would enhance your ability, giving your more strength. With atium, more strength makes for a minimal edge--the length you can push out the atium shadows. However, there's a certain breaking point where you kind of crack the whole system, peer straight into the [Spiritual Realm], and kind of have a "It's full of stars" moment.

Electrum could reach this same moment, potentially, though there's more interference to fight through. Extra strength in electrum isn't going to be terribly useful up to that point.

Alsadius

Is that what happened when atium was burned with duralumin?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Footnote: In his original response Brandon mistakenly said burning atium and duralumin would cause the Allomancer to peer into the Cognitive Realm, rather than Spiritual Realm. He has since confirmed that this was a mistake.
/r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 1, 2015)

 

39 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Is none of the other alloys behave that way when bured with d. 

We've only seen one god metal alloy being burnt with duralumin and it has been confirmed that it produces the same effect as pure Atium.

 

I don't know why you keep trying to refute the WoB/WoP that is proving you wrong in the most straightforward way possible. There is simply nothing I can write to change your mind and truthfully there is nothing I should be writing as the WoP is enough of a proof on its own. I'm ending this here, I've done my part, I've gave you WoP, people can read and decide on their own if the WoP is to be trusted. 

[bmcclure7]

On 4/16/2024 at 4:39 PM, alder24 said:

So it's a WoP, equally definitive on this matter as Peter worked with Brandon on the Atium retcon. He knows what Brandon knows about the effects of pure Atium in comparison with Atium-electrum alloy (which was HIS idea). Another WoP for you:

  Reveal hidden contents

Xais56

Brandon has said that everyone ought to be able to burn Atium, like they can all burn Lerasium, and the fact that they can't was an oversight on his part that he would've done different in hindsight.

Maybe now he's had an in-universe reason to re-write the laws of allomancy it's back to his intended concept; Mistborn burn all 16 base metals, mistings burn one base metal, non-allomancers can only burn godmetal.

Peter Ahlstrom

My explanation for this is that Preservation somehow caused all naturally occurring atium to form as an alloy of atium and electrum. The atium Mistings were actually electrum Mistings.

Xais56

It's a very tidy solution, but it creates the maddening question of what does pure atium do?

Peter Ahlstrom

That answer has already been revealed canonically. RAFO.

Footnote: It has since been clarified that the effect was revealed on the Table of Allomantic Metals poster and seen at the end of The Hero of Ages.
General Reddit 2021 (Nov. 2, 2021)

 

It doesn't, Atium alloy brings you a far more inferior version of the future sight, pure Atium lets you see it all. It's not the same, not even in slightest. Pure Atium is much stronger than Atium-electrum alloy and it allows you to peer straight into the SR, while the alloy needs help from duralumin to achieve that. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Wigginns

What would a Hemalurgic spike granting atium do for an Allomancer already able to burn atium? Does it function similarly to bronze, granting enhanced atium-ing? Along this line of thought, would enhancing electrum burning via spike be of any advantage?

Brandon Sanderson

A spike of something you have would enhance your ability, giving your more strength. With atium, more strength makes for a minimal edge--the length you can push out the atium shadows. However, there's a certain breaking point where you kind of crack the whole system, peer straight into the [Spiritual Realm], and kind of have a "It's full of stars" moment.

Electrum could reach this same moment, potentially, though there's more interference to fight through. Extra strength in electrum isn't going to be terribly useful up to that point.

Alsadius

Is that what happened when atium was burned with duralumin?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Footnote: In his original response Brandon mistakenly said burning atium and duralumin would cause the Allomancer to peer into the Cognitive Realm, rather than Spiritual Realm. He has since confirmed that this was a mistake.
/r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 1, 2015)

 

We've only seen one god metal alloy being burnt with duralumin and it has been confirmed that it produces the same effect as pure Atium.

 

I don't know why you keep trying to refute the WoB/WoP that is proving you wrong in the most straightforward way possible. There is simply nothing I can write to change your mind and truthfully there is nothing I should be writing as the WoP is enough of a proof on its own. I'm ending this here, I've done my part, I've gave you WoP, people can read and decide on their own if the WoP is to be trusted. 

 Except for he wasn't burning a burning a god metal hevwas burning an alloy.

 Burning duralumin iron  Doesn't give you steal. Why would burning an alloy give you atium?

 OK putting that aside  It doesn't make sense at all but as you said I can't really argue with WoP  I still think he was probably confused but still.  Until Brandon gets around to writing it. It's our best guess at least. I'll give you that.

 

Either way though if that's our standard then lerazium is definitely more powerful.  Like not even close. Having the full powers of a misborn compared to the brief glimpses of the future that we saw in hero of ages.  Besides since apparently burning  An atium alloy with duralumin  Magically transforms it into pure Atium.  So if you have lerazium  You pretty much automatically get a back door to pure atium anyways. (Seriously this makes no sense someone needs to ask brandom on this)

 

 Curiously what do you think the other atium alloys do? 

Edited April 19 by bmcclure7

[UltimateArchivist]

@Trusk'our, Know that I support your premise. While the applications of Lerasium do have a much broader range, future sight grants knowledge. Knowledge grants preparation. And preparation saves lives. To seek knowledge is a worthy goal, and Atium supports that cause.

Sadly, as I am only a Lurcher, I would not be able to use Atium, so I would have to choose Lerasium. But I understand and emphasize with your stance.