All Ways to Bypass the Flaw

[Trusk'our he/him]

Hemalurgy can bestow great power upon its wielder, but it has costs and limitations. Arguably the biggest of which is that piercing yourself with enough Hemalurgic spikes will open you up to complete control from outside influences, such as Shards, Emotional Allomancers of sufficient power, or duralumin Ferrings who have stored up enough Connection.

But there should be ways to bypass this weakness in Hemalurgy. Here's what I've come up with-

1. Don't. Just don't: this one is pretty simple. Just don't spike yourself with more than three spikes. Simple, guaranteed to work, and will also have the benefit of not putting a large amount of strain on your Spiritweb (such as is seen with the Steel Inquisitors). It does limit the amount of power you can get though, which is the downside (though there may be ways to cheat a little bit, such as charging a single spike with multiple different powers or the same power multiple times to increase the spike's total level of Investiture and versatility).

2. Aluminum foil hats: aluminum acts as a great insulation from all sorts of Investiture, most particularly Emotional Allomancy. In fact, an aluminum helmet would have been able to greatly reduce Ruin's influence on Rashek, meaning aluminum could probably also help prevent Shardic control.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/472/#e14926

Questioner

The Lord Ruler used a lot of metal for shielding and stuff. But if he had had an aluminum helmet himself, would it have protected him from Ruin's influence at all, or would the spikes overcome that?

Brandon Sanderson

Aluminum helmet would help in that situation. Aluminum could very well have been something useful for resisting, yeah.

Aluminum lining in clothes or as ornamentation could also help in lieu of a helmet, since it has a field effect (WoB).

3. Trellium spikes: Another method proven to work, at least allowing up to five spikes to be borne by a human Hemalurgist without letting Harmony take control of them. Trell can still control them though, so it's also not infallible. 

Trellium/other Godmetal alloys may be able to achieve a similar end result without Connecting oneself to Trell too much, and therefore may be a better alternative to the pure metal.

4. Connection shenanigans: In order to control a being pierced by too much Hemalurgy, you must maintain a spiritual Connection to them. Feruchemical duralumin can store away Connections that the user has, so a Hemalurgist could potentially store the Connection that their opponent tries to use against them.

This might even be able to protect against Shards (and maybe blind the Shard's vision of them as a bonus), as they exist almost entirely in the spiritual Realm and seem to require Connection to something to interact with it meaningfully- though storing Connection to Ruin could possibly prevent their Allomantic powers endowed via Hemalurgy from working if they draw from that Shard's Investiture, which is not ideal.

5. Determination: Marsh was able to resist Ruin's influence a small bit in HoA, but with the number of spikes he bore he was unable to do so sufficiently under Ruin's direct pressure. If he had access to F-electrum though, he might have stood a better chance, at least temporarily.

Compounding would make it a more viable option for the long haul, though the constant wearing down of willpower makes this method of resisting outside influence unappealing.

6. Supercharged Copperclouds: Copperclouds can make the Smoker (and potentially others nearby) resistant to Emotional Allomancy. It only makes sense that if you were to augment this power enough it could render a being far more resistant to powerful Allomancers, or maybe even Shards (though that is dependent if there is a practical limit to the amount of influence a Shard can exert on a single being's Spiritweb, which would probably be based on Connection and the size of the Spiritweb's cracks- which is my current train of thought. If the only limitation is the Shard's own Investiture, this method will not work).

A-copper Savantism may help as well.

7. Supercharged Blessing of Presence: similar to #5, but with Hemalurgic copper rather than Allomantic copper. This option would only really be available to Kandra unless a new breakthrough in Hemalurgy comes, but it would also have the added benefit of increasing the Hemalurgist's mental faculties as well, not just covering a weakness.

8. Raw Investiture: The more Invested a being is, the more it resists other sources of Investiture. For example, the God King Susebron would be highly resistant or even immune to Rashek's Emotional Allomancy.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/367/#e11830

Questioner

God-King versus God-King. Susebron versus Rashek, who comes out on top?

Brandon Sanderson

Rashek, probably.

Questioner

By a lot or a little?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, here's the thing. I think Susebron is at the disadvantage in almost every situation.

Questioner

Okay. How so?

Brandon Sanderson

Rashek has been alive longer. Rashek knows what he's doing. Rashek has martial training. Rashek has killed a lot of people, Susebron never has. Fewer scruples. His magic is way more combat-oriented. He can get out of range a lot easier. He has power emotional Allomancy, which Susebron would *inaudible*.

Granted, he's got so much investiture, he may be able to shrug that off. But still, I would put Rashek at the advantage.

This could mean that a Hemlurgist that managed to find a way to Invest themselves enough (such as collecting enough Breaths) they could offset the Flaw to some degree. 

It also could be that supersaturating the Hemalurgic spikes themselves with Investiture could be particularly effective, as they may be so full that any other invasive Investiture trying to get through the Hemalurgist's Spiritweb cracks would be rebuffed.

9. Protective Commands: Commands can be used when creating Hemalurgic spikes, possibly allowing for some interesting shenanigans. Perhaps you could endow a spike with the Command to repel any other Investiture trying to invade the Hemalurgist's Spiritweb, possibly protecting in a similar manner to Trellium. Or maybe you add a Command to a spike to directly resist and counteract Commands given by outside influences.

10. Shared control: Perhaps if a group of Hemalurgists all deliberately "control" (and thereby Bond or Connect to) each other. They could pool their collective mental prowess to resist influences outside their pseudo-hivemind; the Heralds seemed to be able to resist torture through their Bonds, so maybe Hemalurgists could do the same.

Those are all the ways I can think of right now to circumvent the Flaw. Does anybody else have any ideas to pitch in?

[alder24]

8 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Those are all the ways I can think of right now to circumvent the Flaw. Does anybody else have any ideas to pitch in?

Adaptive Hemalurgy - place your 3 spikes in non vital binding points and exchange them for different powers depending on your needs and situation you're facing. Just have a stockpile of spikes and be smart when choosing which one would be useful on that day.

[First of the Dun he/him]

I’m over here chuckling about aluminum foil hats.  Feels like something Hoid would go around telling people to do.

[Aredor]

1 hour ago, First of the Dun said:

I’m over here chuckling about aluminum foil hats.  Feels like something Hoid would go around telling people to do.

"Wear the hats or the government will control your thoughts!" 

[Njvodin]

On 15/10/2023 at 1:07 PM, Trusk'our said:

Perhaps if a group of Hemalurgists all deliberately "control" (and thereby Bond or Connect to) each other. They could pool their collective mental prowess to resist influences outside their pseudo-hivemind; the Heralds seemed to be able to resist torture through their Bonds, so maybe Hemalurgists could do the same.

I love the idea of this, it could make for some really cool villains, or even flipping that around and making a really cool superhero group for modern/cyberpunk era Mistborn

[Duxredux he/him]

Let's run these strategies through an alternate test I just devised! This list is pretty good for not succumbing to the Flaw from your own setup, BUT what happens if some crazy Hemalurgist with A-Duralumin and A-Brass comes at you with a minigun firing bullets made from broken down Hemalurgic spikes? Years and years working this dead end job at a slaughterhouse killing thousands of cows just to feed the Elendel lion, oh, yes, I'll show them...(you get the picture) If someone nails you with dozens or hundreds of randomly fired hemalurgic spikes can you resist the Flaw if it's imposed upon you?

 

On 10/14/2023 at 11:07 PM, Trusk'our said:

1. Don't. Just don't - Which I'm taking to mean not getting hit. Still your best bet if you can manage it.

2. Aluminum foil hats - Well, you probably could still resist getting taken over. That's something, so better than becoming someone's thrall as long as the hat stays on.

3. Trellium spikes - Kind of depends on if the raised limit is from Trell's interference or if it's that you can resist Harmony because Trell has more direct access to your soul via Trellium? I give it a probable chance of working.

4. Connection shenanigans - If you can store away the Connection created by the flaw, this might still work.

5. Determination - I guess if you had a boatload of Determination? Depends, Marsh with 22 spikes could barely twitch under Ruin's influence.

6. Supercharged Copperclouds - This should probably work even on the upper end since it would prevent the formation of the Connection in the first place.

7. Supercharged Blessing of Presence - Maaaybe? I'm guessing a Coppercloud would work better on the high end since even Kandra with the Blessing of Presence only resisted slightly longer to Ruin's takeover. This might not work on the upper limit of getting spiked.

8. Raw Investiture - Most rules break down with enough Investiture. This would probably work to resist getting nailed by dozens or hundreds of spikes, though better yet, go Step 1 and use your bounteous Investiture to not get hit in the first place.

9. Protective Commands - N/A as this only works with spikes you create, not ones that someone is using to forcibly take you over.

10. Shared control - This one's interesting and should work even if your soul has more hooks so long as your network is stronger than the invader.

I'll give the list 7/10 since we have 1 N/A and four probable cases. Not bad at all, could even be 9/10 if the edge cases still work, though Determination and Blessing of Presence seem the least likely of working anyway to me.

I've wondered if plating the exposed sections of your spikes with Aluminum could work to negate the Flaw, kind as a more permanent version wearing an Aluminum hat.

[Alumínio he/him]

aluminum plate on the head like the Ford from Gravtfalls, it's basically an extreme version of hats

[Argenti he/him]

I'm prone to thinking compounding identity or burning aluminum would help, too, Since you're resiting foreign investiture, which Identy resists, and aluminum removes. Perhaps some aggressive Bondsmithing, Forgering or a AonDor? Shardplates should block all control too.

[therunner he/him]

3 hours ago, Argenti said:

I'm prone to thinking compounding identity or burning aluminum would help, too, Since you're resiting foreign investiture, which Identy resists, and aluminum removes. Perhaps some aggressive Bondsmithing, Forgering or a AonDor? Shardplates should block all control too.

Burning aluminum is probably a bad idea, since spikes are foreign Investiture as well.
You might destroy them, or dislodge the spike from your spiritweb.

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Burning aluminum is probably a bad idea, since spikes are foreign Investiture as well.
You might destroy them, or dislodge the spike from your spiritweb.

The spikes are safe from burning aluminum.

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/375/#e12080

Questioner

If someone had a Hemalurgic spike and they burned aluminum, would the negation of-- am I going to get RAFO'd?

Brandon Sanderson

You're asking if it would destroy the Hemalurgic power? Burning aluminum at that point would not destroy the Hemalurgic power. It would pull the Investiture through whatever you're doing. It would blank your power, but it wouldn't destroy you being an Allomancer with the spike...

I actually considered this in building it and that would be too easy a way to remove Inquisitors, particularly if there were dissension between them.

Perhaps if you burned aluminum you could sever any Connection forced on you, freeing you from another's control.

It wouldn't be ideal to prevent said Connection from forming in the first place, but removing it would be a realistic use, I'd think.

[Argenti he/him]

1 minute ago, Trusk'our said:

The spikes are safe from burning aluminum.

Perhaps if you burned aluminum you could sever any Connection forced on you, freeing you from another's control.

It wouldn't be ideal to prevent said Connection from forming in the first place, but removing it would be a realistic use, I'd think.

I was *about* to use that wob.

[Trusk'our he/him]

Just now, Argenti said:

I was *about* to use that wob.

Spoiler

 

6 hours ago, Argenti said:

I'm prone to thinking compounding identity or burning aluminum would help, too, Since you're resiting foreign investiture, which Identy resists, and aluminum removes. Perhaps some aggressive Bondsmithing, Forgering or a AonDor? Shardplates should block all control too.

Identity is at least a part of what makes Investiture resist Investiture, so if you could tap more of it, you would probably resist foreign Investitures better as well (and yes, Shardplate would work well to deflect another's attempts at controling you as well).

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/181/#e3830

Argent

We know that you can't Lash people in Shardplate, but can you Lash the person inside the Plate? If they had their helm off, for example. At that point Plate should be just dead weight, right? 

Brandon Sanderson

There's a bit of an interference envelope. Wearing plate, the person has this big ball of investiture around them, and so pushing any through it--even by touching a person without a helm--is going to be tough. Easier than with the helm on though, I suppose.

Investiture acts (roughly) like a saturated solution in these cases. Sticking more power into something like a Feruchemical storage or a hyper-invested object like Plate is increasingly hard. The other part is that Investiture tends to interfere with other Investiture, unless there's a familiar resonance. (This is part of what philosophers call Identity.) Slapping your hand through a sand master's stream of sand will cause interference, and make them start to drop. It's not that the sand is supporting them, it's that the investiture holding them up gets scrambled for a moment because of your own investiture.

Investiture pushed toward someone inside a hyper-invested (supersaturated) system like a person in Shardplate is going to get hard push-back.

This is similar to the reason that it's harder to Push on invested coins. Depends on how invested they are, in that case. It's generally not as hard as doing something like Lashing a person in plate. (This is more about the interference than the saturation of investiture.) But the two principles are what I use to guide the physics in these areas.

quietandproud

Can we take that as a hint that the Investiture in the Plates and the Investiture that the Surge of [Adhesion] uses come from different Shards? Or do they interfere because they "belong" to different spren?

Brandon Sanderson

You know, I should have realized this one would bring out the follow up questions. Let's leave it at what I posted for now. This is a deep, deep rabbit hole, and I do need to try to get some more writing done tonight. So...RAFO. (Sorry.)

However, I don't know if F-aluminum can allow you to tap Identity- because it can't conduct Investiture, it very well may only allow a Trueself Ferring to Blank their Identity, not save an tap more of it. This WoB seems to support this hypothesis;

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/105/#e1131

FireArcadia

Is there any use to being a copper Compounder, from a Feruchemical point of view? I think the same point would also apply to an aluminum Compounder.

Brandon Sanderson

Some combinations, like some abilities themselves, aren't really that useful. That said, being able to Compound copper...that could do some things. Aluminum, not so much.

 

[Xiahida]

Theory: If the way a person takes control of a person with spikes, can you use a Linchpin spike to 'seal the cracks' in your spirit web?

[Trusk'our he/him]

6 hours ago, Xiahida said:

Theory: If the way a person takes control of a person with spikes, can you use a Linchpin spike to 'seal the cracks' in your spirit web?

I don't know if that would work quite the way you suggest, or at least the way you word it; the reason you can use a Hemalurgic spike the way you can (despite an Identity incongruency between the spike and that of the spike's bearer) is because Hemalurgic spikes force themselves to work- they violently attach themselves into your Spiritual Aspect via the Physical Aspect (basically, Invested metals in the PR piercing the body to access your Spiritweb in the SR), which causes a tear in the Spiritweb to occur as a natural side effect.

A Linchpin spike seems to function by being able to coordinate the other spikes, preventing the Spiritweb from collapsing, but it does not actually reduce the damage to the Spiritweb- It just stitches the whole Spiritweb together to prevent it from imploding.

A highly specialized Command on the spike may be able to seal the Spiritweb's cracks, but it would be difficult because it would go against Ruin's Intent.

Another, perhaps more likely possibility is that if you were to dull the spike's "aggression" that it would cause less damage to the Spiritweb and create less of a hole for external Investitures to enter. The only downside of this method is that it would be likely weaken the spike's overall versatility and potency- basically, I think it would be like how modern era 2 Hemalurgy is now weaker than era 1 Hemalurgy (no Compounding and no more than five spikes that a human can bear at any given time), but more extreme.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

On 10/14/2023 at 10:07 PM, Trusk'our said:

Hemalurgy can bestow great power upon its wielder, but it has costs and limitations. Arguably the biggest of which is that piercing yourself with enough Hemalurgic spikes will open you up to complete control from outside influences, such as Shards, Emotional Allomancers of sufficient power, or duralumin Ferrings who have stored up enough Connection.

But there should be ways to bypass this weakness in Hemalurgy. Here's what I've come up with-

1. Don't. Just don't: this one is pretty simple. Just don't spike yourself with more than three spikes. Simple, guaranteed to work, and will also have the benefit of not putting a large amount of strain on your Spiritweb (such as is seen with the Steel Inquisitors). It does limit the amount of power you can get though, which is the downside (though there may be ways to cheat a little bit, such as charging a single spike with multiple different powers or the same power multiple times to increase the spike's total level of Investiture and versatility).

2. Aluminum foil hats: aluminum acts as a great insulation from all sorts of Investiture, most particularly Emotional Allomancy. In fact, an aluminum helmet would have been able to greatly reduce Ruin's influence on Rashek, meaning aluminum could probably also help prevent Shardic control.

  Reveal hidden contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/472/#e14926

Questioner

The Lord Ruler used a lot of metal for shielding and stuff. But if he had had an aluminum helmet himself, would it have protected him from Ruin's influence at all, or would the spikes overcome that?

Brandon Sanderson

Aluminum helmet would help in that situation. Aluminum could very well have been something useful for resisting, yeah.

Aluminum lining in clothes or as ornamentation could also help in lieu of a helmet, since it has a field effect (WoB).

3. Trellium spikes: Another method proven to work, at least allowing up to five spikes to be borne by a human Hemalurgist without letting Harmony take control of them. Trell can still control them though, so it's also not infallible. 

Trellium/other Godmetal alloys may be able to achieve a similar end result without Connecting oneself to Trell too much, and therefore may be a better alternative to the pure metal.

4. Connection shenanigans: In order to control a being pierced by too much Hemalurgy, you must maintain a spiritual Connection to them. Feruchemical duralumin can store away Connections that the user has, so a Hemalurgist could potentially store the Connection that their opponent tries to use against them.

This might even be able to protect against Shards (and maybe blind the Shard's vision of them as a bonus), as they exist almost entirely in the spiritual Realm and seem to require Connection to something to interact with it meaningfully- though storing Connection to Ruin could possibly prevent their Allomantic powers endowed via Hemalurgy from working if they draw from that Shard's Investiture, which is not ideal.

5. Determination: Marsh was able to resist Ruin's influence a small bit in HoA, but with the number of spikes he bore he was unable to do so sufficiently under Ruin's direct pressure. If he had access to F-electrum though, he might have stood a better chance, at least temporarily.

Compounding would make it a more viable option for the long haul, though the constant wearing down of willpower makes this method of resisting outside influence unappealing.

6. Supercharged Copperclouds: Copperclouds can make the Smoker (and potentially others nearby) resistant to Emotional Allomancy. It only makes sense that if you were to augment this power enough it could render a being far more resistant to powerful Allomancers, or maybe even Shards (though that is dependent if there is a practical limit to the amount of influence a Shard can exert on a single being's Spiritweb, which would probably be based on Connection and the size of the Spiritweb's cracks- which is my current train of thought. If the only limitation is the Shard's own Investiture, this method will not work).

A-copper Savantism may help as well.

7. Supercharged Blessing of Presence: similar to #5, but with Hemalurgic copper rather than Allomantic copper. This option would only really be available to Kandra unless a new breakthrough in Hemalurgy comes, but it would also have the added benefit of increasing the Hemalurgist's mental faculties as well, not just covering a weakness.

8. Raw Investiture: The more Invested a being is, the more it resists other sources of Investiture. For example, the God King Susebron would be highly resistant or even immune to Rashek's Emotional Allomancy.

  Reveal hidden contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/367/#e11830

Questioner

God-King versus God-King. Susebron versus Rashek, who comes out on top?

Brandon Sanderson

Rashek, probably.

Questioner

By a lot or a little?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, here's the thing. I think Susebron is at the disadvantage in almost every situation.

Questioner

Okay. How so?

Brandon Sanderson

Rashek has been alive longer. Rashek knows what he's doing. Rashek has martial training. Rashek has killed a lot of people, Susebron never has. Fewer scruples. His magic is way more combat-oriented. He can get out of range a lot easier. He has power emotional Allomancy, which Susebron would *inaudible*.

Granted, he's got so much investiture, he may be able to shrug that off. But still, I would put Rashek at the advantage.

This could mean that a Hemlurgist that managed to find a way to Invest themselves enough (such as collecting enough Breaths) they could offset the Flaw to some degree. 

It also could be that supersaturating the Hemalurgic spikes themselves with Investiture could be particularly effective, as they may be so full that any other invasive Investiture trying to get through the Hemalurgist's Spiritweb cracks would be rebuffed.

9. Protective Commands: Commands can be used when creating Hemalurgic spikes, possibly allowing for some interesting shenanigans. Perhaps you could endow a spike with the Command to repel any other Investiture trying to invade the Hemalurgist's Spiritweb, possibly protecting in a similar manner to Trellium. Or maybe you add a Command to a spike to directly resist and counteract Commands given by outside influences.

10. Shared control: Perhaps if a group of Hemalurgists all deliberately "control" (and thereby Bond or Connect to) each other. They could pool their collective mental prowess to resist influences outside their pseudo-hivemind; the Heralds seemed to be able to resist torture through their Bonds, so maybe Hemalurgists could do the same.

Those are all the ways I can think of right now to circumvent the Flaw. Does anybody else have any ideas to pitch in?

Something like a spren bond should fill cracks. The more powerful the bond, the more cracks are filled and/or the more effectively their filled.

[..... he/him]

lots of healing should seal the cracks but it might not matter:

 

Quote

 

sebarial

Would a Feruchemist actively storing Identity be more susceptible to Forgery? Would more outlandish changes be able to take effect? Thanks for your time, and have a wonderful day.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, if you store Identity, it makes you susceptible to ALL KINDS of things in the Cosmere. Forgery would be on the short list.

bubblebooy

Does the difficulty of affecting metals in a body with Allomancy have to do with Identity?

Brandon Sanderson

No, more to do with the fact that most people are innately Invested in the Cosmere--and certain planets have extra Investiture. Something Invested is more difficult to transform/move/etc with another form of Investiture.

bubblebooy

That is what I had originally thought before you capitalized "ALL KINDS." Is Soulcasting people like Jasnah Kholin did doubly hard since people a have a strong sense of Identity and have innate Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

We're getting a bit far on this course, so it's time to pull out the RAFOs. I don't want to overplay my hand and leave the books without anything to talk about. 

Phantine

Does that 'inside a body' thing work on most magics?

For instance, if Han stuck Luke into a Mistborn Tauntaun (a distant and unlucky relative of the mistborn llama), would Luke be protected from both the cold and emotional allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

He'd have to get him inside a living one.

It does work on most magics, though the interactions can be odd unless you know a lot about the workings. Emotional Allomancy, for example, works by lapping against the outsides of someone's cognitive self, influencing you the way music might stir your soul. So being inside a living body wouldn't necessarily stop it--you'd just have more interference. Kind of like how you can still hear music outside if it's loud enough.

Actual mind control in the cosmere requires you to get INSIDE the soul, which you've seen happen frequently enough. There has to be a gap or an opening.

Or, conversely, you just have to be so powerful that you can push through the interference.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 14, 2015).

 

if a duraluminum compounder got hemalurgic A-brass, F-nicrosil, and A-bendalloy for example. even normal people might be in danger. or a shard could do it too.

Edited October 20, 2023 by .....

[trav]

Spiking is always temporary. The best way would be to find a way to make what the spikes do permanent.

A Soulstamp could make someone into an Elantrian. Why not make yourself "spiked" without actual spikes?

Many abilities are not location bound like Sel magic. Make a Soulstamp that you ate Lerasium.

For questions like this the usual answer is "a lot Investiture". A lot Investiture is able to alter the Spiritweb permanently. The same should work with abilities given by spikes. Dump a lot of Investiture on the problem.

[Alumínio he/him]

create a peak so highly invested that it can itself close the crack in the spirit web, as if it were a nahel bond.

but that's theory on my part because I read a WOB saying that the peak is a little aware that it's alive and piercing someone, so with more investiture maybe it can create a pseudo sapience and solve this, I just don't know if it's viable

[alder24]

5 hours ago, trav said:

Spiking is always temporary. The best way would be to find a way to make what the spikes do permanent.

A Soulstamp could make someone into an Elantrian. Why not make yourself "spiked" without actual spikes?

Is it the opposite? A Soulstamp is temporary, a spike is permanent. It decays a little, but if it's inside of your body, the decay is practically stopped. A Soulstamp requires restamping every day or so often. 

Shai didn't draw from the Dor, like normal Elantrins, she used her jar of Dor to fuel her Aons. She could use only that investiture from the jar, not from the whole Dor.

5 hours ago, trav said:

Many abilities are not location bound like Sel magic. Make a Soulstamp that you ate Lerasium.

It's possible but more complicated than this. You would need to give the investiture, which would fuel your Allomancy, with the soulstamp, as a Forged Mistborn won't be able to draw from Preservation.

Spoiler

Aneesh

If there's a Forger like Shai who plausibly had an opportunity to ingest lerasium and become Mistborn, but she passed it up, could she create a stamp that makes her temporarily a Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson

She would have to have access to enough Investiture to make that happen. The stamp saying, "Hey, I'm a Mistborn!" doesn't actually give her the Investiture to do that. She could rewrite her past so that she took that bead. She would not actually be able to use the power, until she got an infusion of Investiture, which could be done with a stamp in the right manner, but most of the time you're gonna have to have some external source. Basically you're gonna have to take a hit of Investiture, a large amount of it, and then use the stamp, and then it will feed on that to change you into basically any of the other magics.

Aneesh

Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

If you could get a hit of Stormlight, that'd work. The problem is, Stormlight's not easy to get off of Roshar, and it still is technically keyed. You could get it a lot more easily-- Stormlight would work fairly well, but what you really want is some pure, unkeyed Dor. That stuff, you could do all kinds of things with. But, you know, it's kinda dangerous. But that's the stuff you're gonna want, or something like unto it.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

Spoiler

Dairetron

If there was enough Investiture available, would a Forger be able to soulstamp lerasium, take it, and then remain a Mistborn after the stamp has worn off?

Brandon Sanderson

No, they would not remain a Mistborn. They would be able to do it during the time that they... It would wear off. Because their genetics would change back.

Tampa Bay Comic Convention 2023 (July 28, 2023)

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

10 hours ago, alder24 said:

Is it the opposite? A Soulstamp is temporary, a spike is permanent. It decays a little, but if it's inside of your body, the decay is practically stopped.

I was under the impression that a Hemalurgic spike plugged into a body stopped decaying entirely. Otherwise, there's a good chance Marsh's spikes would be drained quite significantly over the course of three and a half centuries. Also, Kandra spikes still function after a millenia of time (though they are a bit different- TenSoon's stolen Blessing of Potency was left out of a body for a year and it hadn't felt an appreciable decay while the spike Marsh made from a Smoker decayed to almost nothing in about a week).

Plus, there's the fact that people have found a way to stop spikes from decaying outside a body as well, meaning that it is possible to stop entirely;

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/518/#e16192

Argent

The Lost Metal Ars Arcanum calls Hemalurgic decay a thing of the past. The term has been used to describe the loss of power in spikes outside of bodies, as well as the small amount of power that is lost at the moment a spike is created. Which one of those things no longer happens?

Brandon Sanderson

The first one, the decay of spikes outside of a body. They have figured out how to make that no longer a thing.

Argent

So it's still a thing that happens in the cosmere, they just know how to avoid that completely?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

 

[alder24]

11 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I was under the impression that a Hemalurgic spike plugged into a body stopped decaying entirely. Otherwise, there's a good chance Marsh's spikes would be drained quite significantly over the course of three and a half centuries. Also, Kandra spikes still function after a millenia of time (though they are a bit different- TenSoon's stolen Blessing of Potency was left out of a body for a year and it hadn't felt an appreciable decay while the spike Marsh made from a Smoker decayed to almost nothing in about a week).

Plus, there's the fact that people have found a way to stop spikes from decaying outside a body as well, meaning that it is possible to stop entirely;

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https://wob.coppermind.net/events/518/#e16192

Argent

The Lost Metal Ars Arcanum calls Hemalurgic decay a thing of the past. The term has been used to describe the loss of power in spikes outside of bodies, as well as the small amount of power that is lost at the moment a spike is created. Which one of those things no longer happens?

Brandon Sanderson

The first one, the decay of spikes outside of a body. They have figured out how to make that no longer a thing.

Argent

So it's still a thing that happens in the cosmere, they just know how to avoid that completely?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

 

That's what I meant. I was talking about the decay in general, thus if spikes are inside your body, the decay is practically stopped, as the time spikes spent outside is negligible. But when spikes are in your body, the decay is fully stopped as far as we know.

Edited October 24, 2023 by alder24

[Trusk'our he/him]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

That's what I meant. I was talking about the decay in general, thus if spikes are inside your body, the decay is practically stopped, as the time spikes spent outside is negligible. But when spikes are in your body, the decay is fully stopped as far as we know.

Ah, apologies. I thought you meant that even spikes in the body would suffer a slow decay, but I see that was an incorrect assumption on my part.

[trav]

On 10/23/2023 at 4:02 PM, alder24 said:

a spike is permanent

A spike is not permanent. The moment you remove the spike the ability is lost. Leaving a spike in the body would open yourself to having your soul tampered with.

The point I am making is to inprint what spikes do into your soul without a need for a spike to remain inside you. Basically what is happening with cognitive shadows, just for living beings.

On 10/23/2023 at 4:02 PM, alder24 said:

A Soulstamp is temporary

I never said anything about Soulstamps being permanent. Except they can be permanent, like when Shai feared to become an Elantrian for real. Even Brandon says that it only might wear off not that it definitely will.

If you can become a Feruchemist by using Soulstamps then you could make yourself some really nifty items like Metalminds that grant you the ability that Spikes do (or make your own Bands of Mourning), but without the repercussions. After you are done with charging your Metalminds you can then Soulstamp yourself to be an Allomance and compound the entire thing.

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

Would it be possible to use a soulstamp to give or take Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Not under normal circumstances. The amount of Investiture required to do so would effectively short-circuit the stamp.

American Fork High School Signing (Dec. 12, 2019)

Leaves room open for "it might work".

Spoiler

Dairetron

If there was enough Investiture available, would a Forger be able to soulstamp lerasium, take it, and then remain a Mistborn after the stamp has worn off?

Brandon Sanderson

No, they would not remain a Mistborn. They would be able to do it during the time that they... It would wear off. Because their genetics would change back.

Tampa Bay Comic Convention 2023 (July 28, 2023)

Spoiler

Questioner

If a Mistborn were to burn a metal that's been Forged by a Soulstamp, is there a different effect from another, or?

Brandon Sanderson

So they Forged it from one metal into another metal?

Questioner

Yes.

Brandon Sanderson

So once they started to burn it, it would break the Forgery and it would turn back into its original metal. So you'd have just the briefest moment of getting what it said it was and then it would go back to the other and then if you were a Misting of the wrong type, you would get no more from it.

Questioner

What about Feruchemy or Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson

So Feruchemy and Hemalurgy. You would have a lot of trouble Investing it because it's already Invested. So you would run into troubles right away trying to Invest it, because it's already got all the Investiture messing with it. You could theoretically make it happen, but it would take enough work and conniving that it just wouldn't be worth it.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

According to this you can at least make yourself an Allomancer briefly. Which should be enough to store the ability in a Metalmind.

Becoming a Feruchemist through Forgery should be easier (as its end neutral), if not consistent, since all you need to do is make yourself the kid of a Feruchemist or Ferring and hope for the best.

[alder24]

3 hours ago, trav said:

A spike is not permanent. The moment you remove the spike the ability is lost. Leaving a spike in the body would open yourself to having your soul tampered with.

The point I am making is to inprint what spikes do into your soul without a need for a spike to remain inside you. Basically what is happening with cognitive shadows, just for living beings.

Oh right, got you. Thanks for clarification.

3 hours ago, trav said:

If you can become a Feruchemist by using Soulstamps then you could make yourself some really nifty items like Metalminds that grant you the ability that Spikes do (or make your own Bands of Mourning), but without the repercussions. After you are done with charging your Metalminds you can then Soulstamp yourself to be an Allomance and compound the entire thing

Look at the WoB I've provided - you need an external source of investiture if you want to soulstamp yourself into a Mistborn/Feruchemist, like a jar of Dor. When compounding you would use investiture from this jar, not from Preservation. A nicrosil medallion would work for you as long as you have this jar (not to mention you would need to be both a Feruchemist and a Mistborn to make such a medallion, and that requires external investiture). You are a Mistborn as long as your jar has some Dor in it. The moment it runs out, you no longer have any powers. 

For just Feruchemy you shouldn't need that much of it, your body fuels it, but there is a tiny bit coming from Shards that fuels transfer of physical attributes into investiture, and that would need to be fueled by an external source as well - you need to provide it as you can't draw from Shards.

Spoiler

Questioner

So for the Old Magic, in this classification system of end-positive, end-neutral, and end-negative, where would that fall under?

Brandon Sanderson

So, almost every magic in the cosmere is end-positive, almost every magic is relying upon an external source of Investiture to power it. So that phrasing is mostly more relevant to Scadrial than anywhere else, because that concept is how I'm dealing with things like the laws of thermodynamics, and even what they call end-neutral is relying a little bit on the power of Investiture to facilitate. So even an end-neutral magic system as they define it on Scadrial is actually not end-neutral. What you get put in you get out, but the power is facilitating that transfer… So that phrasing is kind of a... Take that as a science on.. Scadrial that does not extrapolate well, and may not even be 100% accurate.

Moderator

That would have been a great thing to know before we did the cosmere magic panel. *laughter*

Brandon Sanderson

I look at it as, is an Investiture externally powering the magic, and if you look at Allomancy, yes it is. You are drawing that power out. Feruchemy, you are putting Investiture in from your own body, it's your energy transferring to Investiture, which is being stored, which you are then drawing out, and things like that. But that changing forms is facilitated by the magic. Whereas you're stealing stuff with-- So you could look, for instance at the magic on Nalthis, you could look at that one as being-- as kind of working as end-negative, meaning "I am taking it away from someone else", or end-positive depending on if you're the one receiving it or not. So again, it's a phrasing that can be useful as a tool but doesn't scale well to the other magics.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

 

Basically, as far as we know right now, no matter how hard you try, if you forge yourself into a Mistborn, you need to give the Soulstamp lots of investiture, like a jar of Dor, and that would fuel your Allomancy. Sooner or later investiture will run out and you will lose your powers. 

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

I don't think it's been said for some strange reason but Zinc spikes steal 'Emotional Fortitude', which I think allows one to resist thew Flaw better than with Copper spikes and enhanced 'Mental Fortitude' since the Flaw is based on the principles of Emotional Allomancy, manipulating the hemalurgist's emotions to trick the mind into doing what the Controller wants. So by that logic, Zinc spikes would work better than Copper ones. Though they don't come with any other benefits like increased intelligence.

Edited November 1, 2023 by JustQuestin2004