Who would win in a fight?

[Xiahida]

Fullborn versus unchained bondsmith! Running is not an option.

Fullborn: Has access to infinite metals but no atium but if he wants to compound he has to do it during the fight. The metalminds can be filled a small bit before the fight so they can compound it.

 Bondsmith: Have bonded a spren. Have spent a long time studying their powers and have no boundaries.

Who will win and how?

Edited April 5, 2023 by Xiahida

[The Paradoxical Phenomenon he/him]

Well first of all, the Bondsmith using an Honorblade and dead plate is a little… complicated. It would take vast amounts of Stormlight to power his abilities (because we learn that using an Honorblade uses up more), but we also learn that it is hard to use Plate and Honorblade, because in the prologue of tWoK Szeth mentions that “his Lashings interfered with the gemstones that powered Shardplate.” I do not know if this would hold true for the Bondsmith Honorblade as well, but those seem like points against the Bondsmith. Stormlight healing would do him some good but I mean… Compounded healing is just OP. I also don’t know all the abilities of a Bondsmith. Nevertheless, the conclusion I’m coming to is that the Fullborn would win. Honestly, Fullborns might be the most powerful Invested Arts users, other than like, the God King or Hoid.

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, Xiahida said:

Fullborn versus unchained bondsmith! Running is not an option.

Running is not an option? So Fullborn doesn't have F-steel at all? Bondsmith wins.

2 minutes ago, Xiahida said:

Fullborn: Has access to metals but if he wants to compound he has to do it during the fight. The metalminds can be filled a small bit before the fight so they can compound it.

That's like saying Mistborn with only 30 sec of each metal to burn. Or like giving Radiant just one diamond chip full of Stormlight. Why would you limit Fullborn's attribute storage to bare minimum, which he can't use effectively during a fight?

Compounding takes time, it's done by burning metalminds, therefore it takes almost as long as normal piece of metal would be burn Allomantically. Like 1 gram of steel burns in 1 min, 1 gram of Steelmind would also burn around 1 min. So you don't get a burst of attribute like tapping metalminds provides. Because of that compounding isn't useful that much during a fight, it's useful before a fight to fill his metalminds, which Fullborn can tap with massive compression during any fight. While compounding you get like 5x of your attribute constantly (like you're 5x stronger, I've done some math), but tapping metalminds can make you almost as strong as you want.

At this point that's Fullbron basically without Feruchemy, so just a Mistborn, or at best have 5x of his base attribute for short compounding time. Even if you give him F-steel at 5x speed, Bondsmith will win.

2 minutes ago, Xiahida said:

 Bondsmith: Honorblade and dead Plate. Only 15 minutes in Shadesmar to rest over the entire fight.

So that's not only Bondsmith Unchained (without Honor's limitations) but also Unbounded (without any Oaths), he's one of the most dangerous entities in Cosmere. 

Spoiler

Scott Beckman (paraphrased)

Which is scarier... Which is more dangerous: a sword that wants to destroy evil, or a Bondsmith with no bounds?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

A Bondsmith with no bounds.

Scott Beckman (paraphrased)

Can an unbound Bondsmith take that sword's... ability for himself?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Not exactly, but something similar. Probably not what you're thinking, but he could essentially take what that sword is, yes.

Miscellaneous 2022 (Sept. 17, 2022)

Dead plate intervenes with Radiant's abilities, but he can remove his gauntlets before the fight. Bondsmith needs to touch his opponent to manipulate his connections, that's why he has to take off his gauntlets.

Healing is worse with Honorblades than Radiant healing, no soul healing for example, but Fullborn can't damage a soul. And it takes more Stormlight to heal, but Bondsmith can open perpendicularly or directly refuel his spheres, so that's not a problem for him, if he has time to do that.

2 minutes ago, Xiahida said:

Who will win and how?

With little to no Feruchemical attributes, no F-steel, Fullborn stands no chance. Bondsmith can just take Fullborn's powers for himself.

 

The only way for Fullborn (without any limitations) to successfully kill Bondsmith (any type) all the time is to tap all his speed, get to Bondsmith before he even starts thinking about opening perpendicularity, smashing his plate with F-pewter, and breaking his spine - all of that done with massive F-speed, because if Fullborn gives any chance for Bondsmith to touch him, Bondsmith will takes away his powers, so Fullborn has to move faster than Bondsmith can move a figure or think. If you take away just F-steel from Fullborn, Bondsmith will always win. Fullborn loses if Bondsmith opens perpendicularly, or goes into CR, or touches Fullborn taking his powers away.

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, Xiahida said:

Fullborn versus unchained bondsmith! Running is not an option.

Fullborn: Has access to infinite metals but no atium but if he wants to compound he has to do it during the fight. The metalminds can be filled a small bit before the fight so they can compound it.

 Bondsmith: Both Plate and Blade.

Who will win and how?

Oh boy, another one of these questions 

I would say that it's going to depend on, well, a lot of factors actually, but here's a few I think are going to be of primary concern.

How skilled are both at using their powers? Bondsmithing is a lot less "hardwired" than the Fullborn's portfolio, which does give them quite a bit of versatility, but it also means that it's very difficult to use their powers effectively if they don't have a good understanding of the mechanics I would think.

How much knowledge of Worldhopping and Realmatics does each individual have? Bondsmithing's effectiveness would especially hinge on their personal knowledge of Cosmere mechanics.

How does the Bondsmith have a Blade? Is it an Honorblade, or have they managed to manifest their Spren like Dalinar did during OB?

When you say "infinite metals", I'm assuming you mean that they just carrying enough on them that running out during the fight isn't going to be a factor? Otherwise, infinite duralumin plus infinite other metals would mean you basically become a Vessel (but perhaps only briefly) due to the influx of an entire Shard of Adonalsium.

Are we talking about a Lord Ruler level of Allomancy on the Fullborn's part, Lerasium level power, or watered-down level Allomancy?

Does the Fullborn have access to all standard metals (era 2 Mistborn), or just the ones from era 1?

Where is the fight taking place?

Edited April 5, 2023 by Trusk'our

[therunner he/him]

If neither has their powers activated prior to 'start', and both are proficient with their powers, I would say Bondsmith wins even considering F-steel.

First move of Fullborn will be to tap F-steel as much as possible, since otherwise they don't stand a chance.
But Bondsmith can also slow down time (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/508/#e15849), so they could at least partially counter that (e.g. bring down relative difference from 1:80 to only 1:6 or lower).
So do that, and also open perpendicularity, slip into CR, find representation of Fullborn, and manipulate Connections from there however you want, e.g. to steal Connection to metalminds, rendering Fullborn just Mistborn.
That should be possible.

Edited April 5, 2023 by therunner

[Frustration he/him]

Bondsmith, no question. I don't care what you give the other side, nothing short of being a bondsmith themselves, or having Nightblood, or a Dawnshard will be even close to enough.

 

Allow me to illustrate how royally dead the Fullborn is.

Using their powers a Bondsmith can:

1. Make themselves immortal, both biologically and practically. The Oathpact was made using Bondsmith powers, they can just chose to make themselves a Herald, so even if their enemy gets that 1 in a trillion shot and manages to kill them, they will be back to try again.
2. Slow time, as @therunner pointed out, without much difficulty they can dialate time around them to 1:15, and could probably push that further, and if they are bonded to the stormfather, they can push that even more as the space between has a crazy dialation factor able to have entire conversations in the time between seconds.
3. Remove their enemies Connection to their bodies, effectively instantly killing them.
4. Synergetically manipulate their opponents powers, similar to what Dalinar and Shallan do with the map. If they know what they are doing they can use their opponent's powers for their own advantage.
5. So much more, it's actually insane. Bondsmiths are honestly one of the most broken things I have ever seen in any fiction outside of anime and Comic books. And even there they still stand as noteworthy.

[alder24]

51 minutes ago, therunner said:

But Bondsmith can also slow down time (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/508/#e15849), so they could at least partially counter that (e.g. bring down relative difference from 1:80 to only 1:6 or lower).

Fullborn burns bendalloy while tapping speed and the time difference is back to 1:80.

[Frustration he/him]

27 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Fullborn burns bendalloy while tapping speed and the time difference is back to 1:80.

A bondsmith doesn't struggle to do 15:1, they can easily do more than that, and if they are bonded to the Stormfather, they can easily flip the role and end up outspeeding the Fullborn.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

• Make themselves immortal, both biologically and practically. The Oathpact was made using Bondsmith powers, they can just chose to make themselves a Herald, so even if their enemy gets that 1 in a trillion shot and manages to kill them, they will be back to try again.

Keep in mind that the Oathpact was made between Heralds and the Shard of Honor, so unless we're talking specifically about Dalinar and Stormfather, other Bondsmiths can't replicate the Oathpact without direct Shard intervention. Not to mention subjeting Roshar to endless Desolation just so you can win a fight with one guy is just monstrous behavior.

[Frustration he/him]

14 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Keep in mind that the Oathpact was made between Heralds and the Shard of Honor, so unless we're talking specifically about Dalinar and Stormfather, other Bondsmiths can't replicate the Oathpact without direct Shard intervention. Not to mention subjeting Roshar to endless Desolation just so you can win a fight with one guy is just monstrous behavior.

Syl said that the Oathpact was made using Bondsmith powers, she never once mentioned Honor. Persoanlly I'm of the opinion that Honor was only needed in order to give them honorblades.

And you can easily make one that isn't tied to the Fused.

[alder24]

14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Syl said that the Oathpact was made using Bondsmith powers, she never once mentioned Honor. Persoanlly I'm of the opinion that Honor was only needed in order to give them honorblades.

And you can easily make one that isn't tied to the Fused.

Stormfather did, I think his authority overwrites Syl, OB ch 38

Quote

THE HERALDS WENT TO HONOR, AND HE GAVE THEM THIS RIGHT, THIS OATH.

So does Brandon:

Quote

luke.spence (paraphrased)

How many parties were there to the original Oathpact?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds).

Words of Radiance Dayton signing (March 19, 2014)

 

[therunner he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Fullborn burns bendalloy while tapping speed and the time difference is back to 1:80.

As @Frustration said, Bondsmith can increase that rate as well.

But that is besides the point, as the only reason to do that is possibly buy time to get to CR, where Bondsmith is safe and can manipulate Fullborn at leisure.

Edited April 5, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, therunner said:

As @Frustration said, Bondsmith can increase that rate as well.

But that is besides the point, as the only reason to do that is possibly buy time to get to CR, where Bondsmith is safe and can manipulate Fullborn at leisure.

My point was, there is no concrete number on both of those time compressions, but bendalloy compresses time to the point where bullets traveling comparable to the speed of sound (343 m/s) now can not only be followed by an eye, but they are slow enough to traverse a room sized distance within few seconds. The bubble also slows down explosion significantly (explosions can expand with the speed of sound of far greater), and from the outside view, the entire Wayne fight is just a blur and nothing more. That's faaaar faster than 15:1. A lot. And Bondspren compression time is also greater than 15:1. That's why I said it's comparable, and therefore it would both nullify each other. Until we got real numbers for both of those values, we won't prove who is right, so it's pointless to argue about it. 

And yes, Bondsmith will use it only to open perpendicularity (if it's even possible in that place), as he can't really perceive the world from that place he is pulled into.

[Frustration he/him]

10 hours ago, alder24 said:

Stormfather did, I think his authority overwrites Syl, OB ch 38

So does Brandon:

 

Technically neither of those say that Honor was needed, only that he was involved.

But even if he was he most likely isn't anymore

Spoiler

Jurble

One I think might border even further on RAFO - in RoW, Dalinar accepts Kaladin's Fourth Ideal. I'm wondering, is it possible for Dalinar to... power-level a Radiant up to the Fifth Ideal by just accepting all their Oaths without regards to, you know, underlying fitness? Danger and safety issues aside. The Stormfather's comments on Ishar's powers being beyond the scope of what Honor allowed makes me assume he can.

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO, as you expected. But without Honor around, some of the things he could do are kind of up for grabs.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/406/#e14476

 

 

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

23 hours ago, therunner said:

But Bondsmith can also slow down time (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/508/#e15849), so they could at least partially counter that (e.g. bring down relative difference from 1:80 to only 1:6 or lower).

But since the slowing of time comes from drawing lots of Investiture to one place all at once, wouldn't that not affect the Fullborn too much?

It feels more like a Speedbubble, speeding up a zone with all who are inside rather than personal speed, which would limit its usefulness as a counter to F-steel since it would proportionally speed up the Fullborn too once they got close enough.

[Letryx13]

I consider a FullBorn and a fully realized BondSmith to be about even.  Atium with a FullBorn might not greatly help against a BondSmith anyway.  Dalinar described Ishar as being able to tell what the WindRunners were going to do before they did it, which could be a power similar to Atium. That could just be a testament to Ishar's skill, but it seems extremely specific.  I have no clue how such a power connects to BondSmithing, but they can do some incredible things. 

BondSmiths with living plate would probably tip the balance in favor of the BondSmith, since a FullBorn would need to break through the armor before being able to do anything. 

The powers of various shards held by people, such as MistBorn, Feruchemists, Radiants and so on, likely involve a connection to the shards.  And it's not hard to imagine a BondSmith being able to mess with that, based on what Ishar said and did to Dalinar.  But without living plate, it boils down to whether the BondSmith can mess with the FullBorn's connections before being defeated, which is hard to determine.

I lean toward fully realized BondSmith, for several reasons. First, because we probably don't know anything close to the full extent of their powers, and the ones we've seen are already impressive. Second, because the StormFather was even more afraid of Ishar than he was of NightBlood, and NightBlood is one of the most dangerous things we've seen in the cosmere so far. Third, because the easiest way a FullBorn could defeat any radiant would be to outspeed them with compounding Feruchemical speed, but it seems that BondSmiths can alter time themselves to some extent, mitigating that advantage. 

I don't think the FullBorns are completely outclassed, but think fully realized BondSmiths would win more times than not.

[Argenti he/him]

On 4/14/2023 at 1:17 PM, Letryx13 said:

I consider a FullBorn and a fully realized BondSmith to be about even.  Atium with a FullBorn might not greatly help against a BondSmith anyway.  Dalinar described Ishar as being able to tell what the WindRunners were going to do before they did it, which could be a power similar to Atium. That could just be a testament to Ishar's skill, but it seems extremely specific.  I have no clue how such a power connects to BondSmithing, but they can do some incredible things. 

BondSmiths with living plate would probably tip the balance in favor of the BondSmith, since a FullBorn would need to break through the armor before being able to do anything. 

The powers of various shards held by people, such as MistBorn, Feruchemists, Radiants and so on, likely involve a connection to the shards.  And it's not hard to imagine a BondSmith being able to mess with that, based on what Ishar said and did to Dalinar.  But without living plate, it boils down to whether the BondSmith can mess with the FullBorn's connections before being defeated, which is hard to determine.

I lean toward fully realized BondSmith, for several reasons. First, because we probably don't know anything close to the full extent of their powers, and the ones we've seen are already impressive. Second, because the StormFather was even more afraid of Ishar than he was of NightBlood, and NightBlood is one of the most dangerous things we've seen in the cosmere so far. Third, because the easiest way a FullBorn could defeat any radiant would be to outspeed them with compounding Feruchemical speed, but it seems that BondSmiths can alter time themselves to some extent, mitigating that advantage. 

I don't think the FullBorns are completely outclassed, but think fully realized BondSmiths would win more times than not.

I have to say I truly hate how you capitalize Fulborn, Mistborn, Bondsmith, Windrunner, Stormfather, and Nightblood like that. The only one that we do that too is BioChromatic Breath.
*Shudder*

[cometaryorbit]

I think an experienced/high Ideal unchained Bondsmith Radiant would win.

Dalinar or Navani might not, at their current end-of-RoW Ideal and experience level; I don't know if they'd know to use the time dilation trick in battle or how to use Connection effectively to fight. The Stormfather does tell Dalinar that Bondsmith Surges aren't really for battle, so the combat uses that we see from Ishar may be tricky to learn.

Ishar likely would win, but his inferior healing means that he could be one hit killed by a super f Steel+f Pewter bash, so it's not 100%.

With Ishar's skill level + full Radiant powers and living Plate ... yeah.

Edited April 18, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Letryx13]

On 4/18/2023 at 2:49 PM, cometaryorbit said:

I think an experienced/high Ideal unchained Bondsmith Radiant would win.

Dalinar or Navani might not, at their current end-of-RoW Ideal and experience level; I don't know if they'd know to use the time dilation trick in battle or how to use Connection effectively to fight. The Stormfather does tell Dalinar that Bondsmith Surges aren't really for battle, so the combat uses that we see from Ishar may be tricky to learn.

Ishar likely would win, but his inferior healing means that he could be one hit killed by a super f Steel+f Pewter bash, so it's not 100%.

With Ishar's skill level + full Radiant powers and living Plate ... yeah.

I get the living plate, but what makes you think their healing is inferior? The blades seemed to grant the same level of healing, just needing more stormlight with regular people.  And Szeth implied that the reason normal people needed more stormlight was because their bodies weren't as suited for the power.

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, Letryx13 said:

I get the living plate, but what makes you think their healing is inferior? The blades seemed to grant the same level of healing, just needing more stormlight with regular people.  And Szeth implied that the reason normal people needed more stormlight was because their bodies weren't as suited for the power.

Honorblades can't heal shardblade wounds.

[Letryx13]

46 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Honorblades can't heal shardblade wounds.

Do we know that for a certainty? Teft assumed Bridge Four would be able to heal themselves with the honorblade if they hurt themselves with it. 

Edited April 21, 2023 by Letryx13

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 4/16/2023 at 7:52 PM, Argenti said:

I have to say I truly hate how you capitalize Fulborn, Mistborn, Bondsmith, Windrunner, Stormfather, and Nightblood like that. The only one that we do that too is BioChromatic Breath.
*Shudder*

Heh, personally, I just capitalize anything that's Cosmere related. That way, I we can separate the fictional stuff from the non-fiction, like Identity and identity or Connection and connection 

[Immortal Platypus]

2 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Do we know that for a certainty? Teft assumed Bridge Four would be able to heal themselves with the honorblade if they hurt themselves with it. 

pretty much. Taravangian said something that I can't remember to Szeth (who is our biggest authority on the subject) about needing an Honorblade with the surge of Regrowth to heal a Shardblade wound after the Szeth-Kal fight.

[Argenti he/him]

4 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Heh, personally, I just capitalize anything that's Cosmere related. That way, I we can separate the fictional stuff from the non-fiction, like Identity and identity or Connection and connection 

No, I mean they capitalize Nightblood, like NightBlood. I'm guessing they say ShardBlade, HonorBlade, and CoinShot, horrifying stuff like that. You capitalize the first letter in Coinshot, they capitalize each word independently like a monster.

[Immortal Platypus]

18 minutes ago, Argenti said:

No, I mean they capitalize Nightblood, like NightBlood. I'm guessing they say ShardBlade, HonorBlade, and CoinShot, horrifying stuff like that. You capitalize the first letter in Coinshot, they capitalize each word independently like a monster.

you'd be surprised at how common that is outside of 17S.