How long should Stormlight Archive books be?

[Frustration he/him]

So I have on occasion seen people argue that Stormlight books are too long. I have also seen(probably more commonly) that they aren't long enough.

So I decided to ask you, the questions: How long would you prefer Stormlight books to be? And if you want them shorter what would you cut, and if you want them longer what would you add?

[offer]

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

So I have on occasion seen people argue that Stormlight books are too long. I have also seen(probably more commonly) that they aren't long enough.

So I decided to ask you, the questions: How long would you prefer Stormlight books to be? And if you want them shorter what would you cut, and if you want them longer what would you add?

I would like them to be longer. Mainly to add worldbuilding - In RoW (and to some degree in previuos books) all the interludes were directly related to the main plot which was dissapointing.

I want more TWoK style interludes that show what happens in some part  of the world or give some intersting worldbuilding fact.

 

The best example of missing worldbuilding is the near history of Roshar - we have heard almost nothing about any event between the recreance and Alethi unification wars.

[alder24]

More. This is great a series, with a lot of characters, everyone has their own thing going on, in different locations, so they need space to develop them properly. And as @offer said, more worldbuilding interludes. They were just great in WoK and WoR. Roshar is such a huge place, with so many cultures and countries, and we've barely get to know a few of them, and we still are focusing mostly on Altekar in book 4. 

[Rg2045]

I feel the length is good we just need more stories/books in roshar. SA is nice but if we had smaller books about other sections or past events that would be great 

[Frustration he/him]

I'd prefer the books be closer to 1,400 maybe 1,500 each, with a little cut into Shallan PoV's in WoK, Navani's in RoW and almost entirely removing Adolin's to make room for Eshonai/Venli and Szeth throughout the whole series.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

almost entirely removing Adolin's to make room

How would that effect the Maya and honorspren situation in your head? Or is that plot scrapped entirely?Does adolin become a radiant in that alternative book?

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, KaladinWorldsinger said:

How would that effect the Maya and honorspren situation in your head? Or is that plot scrapped entirely?Does adolin become a radiant in that alternative book?

The trial scene would be left, but the ones of him fighting the Tukkarish people, or studying with Blended would be removed.

[alder24]

LEAVE ADOLIN ALONE!!! His fight with Tukari was awesome!

[Frustration he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

LEAVE ADOLIN ALONE!!! His fight with Tukari was awesome!

It was, but it could be replaced with something like Szeth fighting off skybreakers while trying not to reveal his identity.

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It was, but it could be replaced with something like Szeth fighting off skybreakers while trying not to reveal his identity.

Szeth has no reason to conceal his identity. Skybreakers don't operate like this, and can accept that some of them chose the other side.

While SA creates amazing action sequences, I think character development and emotional stakes excel even more in the series.

I miss characters without powers. They provide unique PoV on characters with powers or on fights against characters with powers. It's easy to forget that Radiants are a minority when every PoV character is a Radiant, there are only 200 of them among 10 million people in the world. Adolin is necessary, he's the only non-powered PoV character remaining in a book. 

[Frustration he/him]

8 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Szeth has no reason to conceal his identity.

Aside from the fact that Dalinar asked him to do so, and had an illusion applied to him for that purpose.

8 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Skybreakers don't operate like this, and can accept that some of them chose the other side.

Their still going to attack Dalinar.

8 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I miss characters without powers. They provide unique PoV on characters with powers or on fights against characters with powers. It's easy to forget that Radiants are a minority when every PoV character is a Radiant, there are only 200 of them among 10 million people in the world. Adolin is necessary, he's the only non-powered PoV character remaining in a book. 

There are 10 books for 10 Characters, of one of the 10 orders, and most of the time the Characters that the books are about are largely ignored in favor of people who aren't those 10.

In Rhythm of War, the book about both the Willshapers and Venli/Eshonai, Kaladin, Shallan and Navani all have more PoV's than her, and Adolin is pretty close. Even if we entirely cut Adolin and gave all those chapters to Venli, along with all of the Flashbacks Kaladin would still have more PoV's than her.

This was the last chance for us to have Willshapers explored in depth, and now it's gone with us knowing only slightly more than we already did.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Frustration

[alder24]

13 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Aside from the fact that Dalinar asked him to do so, and had an illusion applied to him for that purpose.

Their still going to attack Dalinar.

Yes, but that's for a different reason. That is to provide strategical benefit, not because Skybreakers can't know that one of them is on the other side.

13 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Theirs 10 books for 10 Characters, of one of the 10 orders, and most of the time the Characters that the books are about are largely ignored in favor of people who aren't those 10.

In Rhythm of War, the book about both the Willshapers and Venli/Eshonai, Kaladin, Shallan and Navani all have more PoV's than her, and Adolin is pretty close. Even if we entirely cut Adolin and gave all those chapters to Venli, along with all of the Flashbacks Kaladin would still have more PoV's than her.

This was the last chance for us to have Willshapers explored in depth, and now it's gone with us knowing only slightly more than we already did.

I do agree that Venli deserved more in RoW. However I won't sacrifice Adolin. I found myself more engaged in Adolin/Shallan's chapters than in Kaladin's. We've already had 3 books about depressed Kaladin, 4th, while it brought resolution of some kind, was mostly the same we've already got. Adolin chapters provided something new, especially with the addition of Maya. His fight with Tukari was more memorable for me, than Kaladin's fights with Lezian, because Adilon had no powers and faced overwhelming numbers, and could only use his skill and years of training. I wouldn't trade it off for anything.

And no, it's not the last change to explore Willshapers. Was WoK the last time we explore Windrunners? Or WoR the last of LIghtweavers? No. They are still being developed in every new book, the same will be with Willshapers. RoW provide us with information on what Willshaper's first steps are.

Edited January 24, 2023 by alder24

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, alder24 said:

Yes, but that's for a different reason. That is to provide strategical benefit, not because Skybreakers can't know that one of them is on the other side.

No, it's because the other Coalition members don't trust Szeth, for obvious reasons, why on earth would he fear Skybreakers?

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I do agree that Venli deserved more in RoW. However I won't sacrifice Adolin.

Well, I would.

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

We've already had 3 books about depressed Kaladin, 4th, while it brought resolution of some kind, was mostly the same we've already got.

I agree it was poorly handled, and several of his chapters could have been cut as well, especially the Dog and the Dragon.

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

And no, it's not the last change to explore Willshapers. Was WoK the last time we explore Windrunners? Or WoR the last of LIghtweavers? No. They are still being developed in every new book, the same will be with Willshapers. RoW provide us with information on what Willshaper's first steps are.

And how do they tie into the main plot?

I would have agreed with you, if Venli had chosen to stay with the Coalition forces, but going back to the Shattered plains was pretty much her exiting the story. I highly doubt they will play a role in book 5, and will probably only get Interluedes where we can see them.

[alder24]

29 minutes ago, Frustration said:

No, it's because the other Coalition members don't trust Szeth, for obvious reasons, why on earth would he fear Skybreakers?

Why would you assume that he has to fear Skybreakers from what I've written? Strategical benefit isn't fear.

31 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I agree it was poorly handled, and several of his chapters could have been cut as well, especially the Dog and the Dragon.

I like that story. It seems like we disagree on every point.

31 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And how do they tie into the main plot?

I would have agreed with you, if Venli had chosen to stay with the Coalition forces, but going back to the Shattered plains was pretty much her exiting the story. I highly doubt they will play a role in book 5, and will probably only get Interluedes where we can see them.

Willshapers are back. We don't know what they can offer us, but now there are Listeners that are Radiants. This is big. This is fundamental for future development. Listeners might as well decide to join the Coalition, reasoning that's the only way for them to stay out of Odium's influence. I think however they will play bigger role in second half of SA, and that's ok.

[Treamayne]

I'm happy with the current size and scope. I wouldn't mind more interludes like Ishikk, Axies, and Gerenid; but, as we've seen, almost all of those Interludes were "Worldbuilding as foreshadowing" so I expect future interludes will either be tied directly to the main storyline, or foreshadowing for something that will be relevant. 

I think the best part of those interludes was that, on re-read, we can pick out the foreshadowed events/story - but initially they still felt like solid worldbuilding without being confusing. 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

This was the last chance for us to have Willshapers explored in depth, and now it's gone with us knowing only slightly more than we already did.

I think this sentiment indicates a profound misunderstanding of the SA story architecture.

Each book isn't "devoted" to the order of the Flashback character (though TWoK did fit this - it was the only one) - each order's "book" is where the Order (or its Surges) is introduced or expanded so that the first book wasn't filled with nothing but worldbuilding. Just as we see Lightweavers developing after WoR - we'll continue to learn more about Willshapers as the story progresses. Just as Skybreakers were introduced in Szeth's scenes in OB, I expect we'll get more on their Ideals and use of Division in Book 5 (and it'll be the formal introduction to the Surge of Division since almost nothing of Malata's abilites were shown or explained).

[Returned]

I'd prefer them to be longer but tighter narratively. The books are long, and getting longer, but are also becoming more unwieldy. There are (to my eye) increasing portions of the books that are fanservice (irrelevant to the story, and rewarding only if you are personally invested in that particular thing), increasing portions that are basically recitations of lists (of powers, of categories of powerful people), and a real gaps-and-islands issue with character POV (sometimes unavoidable, but if you like character X you might go a very long time without seeing them, let alone seeing them do something). I think that we've also hit a point where the scaling of conflicts has become unmanageable (if every climactic threat is the biggest ever it becomes harder to set it up in the same number of pages as the previous one).

I'll read any number of pages as long as I'm engaged, but my average engagement per page for SA has dropped a bit. Some things will look different in hindsight (there were bits of Wheel of Time which I didn't love the first time through, but on re-reads I have enough context to appreciate them more). But overall I feel that there has been more of a disconnect between characters observing and experiencing the world, developing their personal storylines, and the major events of the world as it is in each book.

So I don't have a target length that I think is generically appropriate for each, and there is some portioning of events across volumes that I think dictate what each book really needs to cover. But I wish that the books were a bit tighter in pacing and content they have. If it feels like there is bloat, the book will feel too long for me.

[TheOtherDave]

As long as they need to be.

 

I like longer books… it gives the author time to develop complex and nuanced plots and characters.

[Frustration he/him]

29 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

 I think this sentiment indicates a profound misunderstanding of the SA story architecture.

Each book isn't "devoted" to the order of the Flashback character (though TWoK did fit this - it was the only one) - each order's "book" is where the Order (or its Surges) is introduced or expanded so that the first book wasn't filled with nothing but worldbuilding. Just as we see Lightweavers developing after WoR - we'll continue to learn more about Willshapers as the story progresses. Just as Skybreakers were introduced in Szeth's scenes in OB, I expect we'll get more on their Ideals and use of Division in Book 5 (and it'll be the formal introduction to the Surge of Division since almost nothing of Malata's abilites were shown or explained).

After the WoK prologue our understanding of Windrunner powers has barely changed, after WoR our understanding of Lightweaver powers has barely changed. Really Bondsmiths are the only ones that break that pattern(part of the reason I think their powers should have been saved for book 10).

Willshapers though, we barely scratched the surface.

[Treamayne]

21 minutes ago, Frustration said:

After the WoK prologue our understanding of Windrunner powers has barely changed, after WoR our understanding of Lightweaver powers has barely changed. Really Bondsmiths are the only ones that break that pattern(part of the reason I think their powers should have been saved for book 10).

Willshapers though, we barely scratched the surface.

Right. But I would put it like this:

• TWoK: We see Szeth - then have Windrunners introduced - but Lashes aren't explored much. What explanation we get is from Szeth, not a Windrunner.
• WoR: Lightweavers are introduced and Lightweaving is introduced but only partly explained and only from Shallan's Viewpoint
  • Kaladin's Viewpoint further explains Gravatation and Adhesion (but not the Reverse Lashing - despite using it unconnsiously in book 1)
  • Edgedancers are introduced via Interlude - Limited introduction to Growth, Abrasion and Regrowth
• OB: Bondsmiths are introduced and we see how a different order with a shared Surge (Adhesion) may use it differently. Tension is barely touched upon (assuming that was part of him "fixing" the temple)
  • Still almost nothing on how Lightweavers use Soulcasting
  • Not much progress on Windrunners
  • Dustbringers psuedo-introduced but no explanations on Division or how DBs use Abrasion
  • We find out Jasnah is an Elsecaller - but no explanations for how she is using Soulcasting or Transportation
  • Renarin is shown as Truthwatcher - but no explanations for any of his powers other than Regrowth
• RoW: Willshapers are introduced with an introduction to Cohesion (but not Transportation)
  • More information on Reverse Lashing
  • Lightweaver Soulcasting introduced
  • Still nothing on Bondsmith use of Tension
  • Still nothing on Elsecallers or their Surges
  • Still nothing on Truthwatchers (normal or Enlightened)

nd that doesn;t ven cover how the Fused are using the Surges, which may be similar to the KR or rather different (e. g. Gravitation seems vert similar - Transportation seems vastly different). So, I see the books as "introduction to the order/surges" of the flashback character rather than "all about the flashback character and their order/surges."

JMO

Edited January 24, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[NameIess]

20 minutes ago, Frustration said:

After the WoK prologue our understanding of Windrunner powers has barely changed, after WoR our understanding of Lightweaver powers has barely changed. Really Bondsmiths are the only ones that break that pattern(part of the reason I think their powers should have been saved for book 10).

Willshapers though, we barely scratched the surface.

2 books isn’t a pattern, especially since we still haven’t seen much Lighteeaver soulcasting.

 

After I finish every book I SA I’ve wanted to read more, which is a sign that they’re a good length imo. I think they should be as long as they need to be to tell the story Brandon wants to tell.

[agrabes]

10 hours ago, Returned said:

I'd prefer them to be longer but tighter narratively. The books are long, and getting longer, but are also becoming more unwieldy. There are (to my eye) increasing portions of the books that are fanservice (irrelevant to the story, and rewarding only if you are personally invested in that particular thing), increasing portions that are basically recitations of lists (of powers, of categories of powerful people), and a real gaps-and-islands issue with character POV (sometimes unavoidable, but if you like character X you might go a very long time without seeing them, let alone seeing them do something). I think that we've also hit a point where the scaling of conflicts has become unmanageable (if every climactic threat is the biggest ever it becomes harder to set it up in the same number of pages as the previous one).

I'll read any number of pages as long as I'm engaged, but my average engagement per page for SA has dropped a bit. Some things will look different in hindsight (there were bits of Wheel of Time which I didn't love the first time through, but on re-reads I have enough context to appreciate them more). But overall I feel that there has been more of a disconnect between characters observing and experiencing the world, developing their personal storylines, and the major events of the world as it is in each book.

So I don't have a target length that I think is generically appropriate for each, and there is some portioning of events across volumes that I think dictate what each book really needs to cover. But I wish that the books were a bit tighter in pacing and content they have. If it feels like there is bloat, the book will feel too long for me.

I agree - I have said things like this several times but I think that Sanderson has painted himself in a corner a little bit by planning some of this out too much.  He feels like he's made promises and plans and needs to live up to them even if the creative energy isn't quite there or isn't leading him in the direction he thinks he needs to go based on his plans.  He talks a lot about how he wants to follow the same format for every book and particularly for Stormlight he wants each book to be kind of multiple books within each book.  It's a cool concept, but I think it's gotten away from him a little bit in the last few books.  

If I was going to say what I would like to be cut it would be things like this - Expanded Bridge Four sections in OB, The entire siege/occupation of Urithiru to be tightened up significantly somehow, Interludes not related to the main story of the Stormlight Archive.  There have been some sections in the last two Stormlight books in particular where it feels like neither the plot nor character development is moving forward.  

If I had my wish - for SA6-SA10, I hope Sanderson scraps the idea of his format for the Stormlight books and just writes what he thinks is the best, what his creative sense tells him he should do.  I think we've seen from the 4 secret projects that he does his best work when he's able to just write free and not be constrained by these massive interweaving plans and promises he makes to fans years in advance.  So, if I had my choice - make it any length but write free Mr. Sanderson!

[KaladinWorldsinger]

30 minutes ago, agrabes said:

If I had my wish - for SA6-SA10, I hope Sanderson scraps the idea of his format for the Stormlight books and just writes what he thinks is the best, what his creative sense tells him he should do.  I think we've seen from the 4 secret projects that he does his best work when he's able to just write free and not be constrained by these massive interweaving plans and promises he makes to fans years in advance.  So, if I had my choice - make it any length but write free Mr. Sanderson!

I think if Brandon does that, there is a good chance that the second half will only be four books or 5 shorter books. Which I would like

[Treamayne]

10 hours ago, agrabes said:

He talks a lot about how he wants to follow the same format for every book and particularly for Stormlight he wants each book to be kind of multiple books within each book.

I don't know if it will change your perception at all, but that's not quite accurate. WoB:

Spoiler

Quote

Xyrd

Can I ask what defines a "trilogy's worth of arcs"? I always thought that roughly corresponded to wordcount, but your wordcount-per-trilogy has halved from ~650k (Elantris, Mistborn 1, Warbreaker) to ~325k (Mistborn 1.5, Stormlight-without-interludes, Reckoners) so I must have that wrong... but I'm not sure why that's wrong.

Brandon Sanderson

I plot these like a trilogy each. The entire [Reckoners] trilogy, for example, is shorter than the Way of Kings. I plot a book of Stormlight using similar (though not exactly the same) methods as I use in building a series of other books.

Xyrd

What does "like a trilogy" mean? Or is there somewhere you'd recommend I go to learn more? From my uneducated perspective, "like a trilogy" means "long, lots of stuff happens, three books".

Brandon Sanderson

Well, what makes a book for me is usually an arc for a character mixed with a plot arc. Often multiple plot arcs and character arcs. It is less "stuff happens" and more "stuff happens for a reason, building to pivotal moments or discoveries." My YouTube writing lectures might help explain better. Look for the ones on plotting.

Quote

 Brandon Sanderson

As I've worked on the Stormlight series, I've shifted a lot of things around in the outlines. Famously, I swapped Dalinar's book and Szeth's book (making Book Three have Dalinar's flashbacks instead of Szeth's). But along the same lines, I moved a chunk of Book Three into Book Two, and then moved around smaller arcs for Three, Four, and Five.

The Stormlight series has a very odd structure. Each novel is outlined as a trilogy plus a short story collection (the interludes) and is the length of four regular books. This lets me play with narrative in some interesting ways—but it also makes each volume a beast to write. The other superstructure to the series is the spotlight on the ten orders of Radiants, with each book highlighting one of them while also having a flashback sequences for a character tied to one of those orders.

 

So, the idea is that the longer book allows for a smaller climax and the final climax (and possibly two smaller climaxes) to keep the pace and tension in such a large book. That's accomplished by outlining like a trilogy (or at least a method similar to how he outlines other trilogies) as far as the character arcs, story arcs and climaxes - but the story is still crafted to be one book rather than multiple books smooshed together.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[agrabes]

On 1/24/2023 at 11:21 PM, Treamayne said:

I don't know if it will change your perception at all, but that's not quite accurate. WoB:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

So, the idea is that the longer book allows for a smaller climax and the final climax (and possibly two smaller climaxes) to keep the pace and tension in such a large book. That's accomplished by outlining like a trilogy (or at least a method similar to how he outlines other trilogies) as far as the character arcs, story arcs and climaxes - but the story is still crafted to be one book rather than multiple books smooshed together.

Yes, that was what I meant by saying he plots each Stormlight book as multiple books, I was just too lazy to go in and dig up the exact terminology he uses for it.  I've seen that quote before, or maybe one of a handful of others where he talks about this topic.  There are some other quotes where he goes into more detail about how he plots out each section.  The way he talks about it, it seems like it's an idea he got which worked really well for tWoK and WoR but then he was committed.  The extra stuff (and by stuff, I mean the interludes in particular) he put in the last two books, especially RoW, was just not as good in my opinion.  I don't really care to read about the favorite romance novels of a random no-name character who is not at all part of the main story for example.  Even parts the main story (Eshonai/Venli's flashbacks) just didn't seem to be nearly as good as in previous books.  I think Sanderson knew this - he talked about it in his writing updates on RoW and how he felt Eshonai/Venli's flashbacks just weren't working well.  But, he'd committed to make a major part of the Stormlight book structure to be flashbacks of a character so he didn't have much room to work.  I'd rather have had him cut maybe 50-60% of those flashbacks, rather than stick to the format of always having major flashbacks.  Those are the kinds of things I'm talking about.  Your mileage my vary, and obviously I'm just speculating about all this and could be completely wrong.

[+Child of Hodor]

On 1/21/2023 at 5:03 AM, offer said:

I would like them to be longer. Mainly to add worldbuilding - In RoW (and to some degree in previuos books) all the interludes were directly related to the main plot which was dissapointing.

I want more TWoK style interludes that show what happens in some part  of the world or give some intersting worldbuilding fact.

 

The best example of missing worldbuilding is the near history of Roshar - we have heard almost nothing about any event between the recreance and Alethi unification wars.

Agreed on WoK having the best interludes and RoW interludes being too main plot focused. 

The last two installments I think he wrote more and had to cut stuff to get it down to a page count Tor could reasonably bind without raising the price.

OB especially had some glaring omissions like somehow Szeth is Navani’s bodyguard. Feels like that would have required a big discussion. Shallan got married off page. I wasn’t dying to see it but that’s a big thing to skip. Navani and Jasnah reunited off page. 

Id rather have those missing pieces in there.