Tress of the Emerald Sea Reactions (Cosmere Edition)

[Chaos]

Put your full book reactions to Tress here. Cosmere spoilers are allowed in this forum!

[IndigoAjah]

20% through and my main thought so far is how lovely the prose is!

 

Something that, for all his strengths, I didn't expect from a BranSan book

 

[Necessary Eagle]

The most interesting Cosmere connections:

1. Apparently Saze set all the kandra free? And the implication was that this was within a century of whenever the story takes place.

2. Is Xisis Foil?

3. If Midnight Essence comes from (or is associated with) Aethers, what does that imply about Re-Shephir's nature?

[+Oltux72]

1. The Ire are prospering
2. Somebody developed true AI
3. Where was Design?
4. Do genuine familiars exist or do they not?
5. Nalthis is still around and producing its own technology
6. A Dragon! Dragonsteel!

24 minutes ago, Necessary Eagle said:

The most interesting Cosmere connections:

1. Apparently Saze set all the kandra free? And the implication was that this was within a century of whenever the story takes place.

Why?

24 minutes ago, Necessary Eagle said:

3. If Midnight Essence comes from (or is associated with) Aethers, what does that imply about Re-Shephir's nature?

Nothing. Pewter and Shardplate give increased strength. Lightweaving comes from three different systems.

[Necessary Eagle]

34 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Why?

Because the narration says the kandra have gotten weirder over "the decades" since they went their own ways.

[WhatFace]

At the beginning of Chapter 48, Hoid narrates, “But if ever there were proof that Fate herself had placed long odds against the Crow’s Song, it would be the fact that there were not one, but two separate rainlines heading straight for the ship.”

Was he just being poetic, or did he just name-drop a Shard? I think it’s probably just the former, but I wanted to know what other people thought.

 

Other observations:

- We’ve known about the Iriali for ten months now, and still no updates on what’s going on with them.

- That planet where the only sapient life is a buncha pancake-like beings who express themselves through flatulence… Is that Vax?

- Who gave Fort his board?

- Tales of “Death himself” with “nails in his eyes” have indeed migrated to other planets. Are the Ghostbloods trying to pull a… If you’ve ever read the Foundation story “The Mayors”? That move.

- Laptops and maybe A.I. exist now?!? And the Ire have access to them?!?

Edited January 2, 2023 by WhatFace

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, WhatFace said:

- Tales of “Death himself” with “nails in his eyes” have indeed migrated to other planets. Are the Ghostbloods trying to pull a… If you’ve ever read the Foundation story “The Mayors”? That move.

- Laptops and maybe A.I. exist now?!? And the Ire have access to them?!?

I think this story takes place in Mistborn era 4 time, given the spaceship at the end. Could be earlier, given that the woman was a worldhopper, but Hoid seemed to indicate that spaceships exist at least somewhat commonly, with sentient computers (spren) or whatever aboard them.

[FireandAshes]

Ok so first of all I LOVED it. Had a bit of a slow start but was just wonderful. The amount of cosmere stuff in it was unexpected but incredible. First onscreen dragon, dragon steel, the amount of hoid in it (I love him) with a very satisfying conclusion and twist. As far as we know, this is the farthest book in cosmere timeline, correct?

I’m so excited to get the print edition, has anyone got theirs yet? 
anyway, so many things to talk about but for now I’d like to bring up the reference to the shattering of adonalsium. I don’t remember the exact quote and I’m too lazy to look it up, but something about hoid narrating the phrase “it’s for your own good” and that he once said it with sixteen other people. 
 

thoughts?

[FireandAshes]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

1. A Dragon! Dragonsteel!.

Genuinely so excited when he showed up. I wonder what kind of magic he used to wrap Crow with the curtains? Was it something established like awakening, or do dragons of some form of telekinesis? 

[The Unknown Ajah]

10 minutes ago, FireandAshes said:

As far as we know, this is the farthest book in cosmere timeline, correct?

I believe Brandon said SotD is farther ahead, bit not by a lot.

[leafelf]

8 minutes ago, FireandAshes said:

I’d like to bring up the reference to the shattering of adonalsium. I don’t remember the exact quote and I’m too lazy to look it up, but something about hoid narrating the phrase “it’s for your own good” and that he once said it with sixteen other people. 
 

The quote is: ""I can't. For your own good, you see."... Oh yes. I've said those words. I said them with sixteen other people, in fact."  (edited for clarity).  We also have the quote: "[Hoid] was literally part of secret plot to kill God."  I find this one pretty interesting, since we knew he was involved in killing Adonalsium, but I believe it being a secret plot is new information, though not super surprising.   

Also I just want to say I love the art!!  Especially the one where Hoid is having an epic wizard duel while dressed as a dad on vacation 

[LiquidBlue]

Wow, quite a few surprising cosmere connections. Interesting but about Elantrians needing to be invited and adopted. I wonder what guides the natural process on Sel during the time of the Elantris novel.

[+Oltux72]

8 hours ago, Necessary Eagle said:

Because the narration says the kandra have gotten weirder over "the decades" since they went their own ways.

So you are making the assumption that the Kandra scattered immediately after being released from Harmony's service?

 

3 hours ago, FireandAshes said:

Genuinely so excited when he showed up. I wonder what kind of magic he used to wrap Crow with the curtains? Was it something established like awakening, or do dragons of some form of telekinesis? 

Dare I suggest Microkinesis?

3 hours ago, The Known Novel said:

I believe Brandon said SotD is farther ahead, bit not by a lot.

That raises a fundamental question. We have multiple interstellar empires. Yet we also have multiple relatively primitive planets. So many that many of them are still being discovered. I can see no way this is possibe unless the Cosmere has hundreds of inhabitated worlds. That means that our view of it must be highly skewed towards atypical worlds.

 

[Pattern]

Riina...the same one as in Mistborn: Secret History?

Also: Did anyone else see similarities between Hoid's cursed fashion sense and some current trends (e.g black slacks and white sports socks...)?

Edited January 2, 2023 by Pattern

[agrabes]

14 hours ago, Necessary Eagle said:

The most interesting Cosmere connections:

1. Apparently Saze set all the kandra free? And the implication was that this was within a century of whenever the story takes place.

2. Is Xisis Foil?

3. If Midnight Essence comes from (or is associated with) Aethers, what does that imply about Re-Shephir's nature?

i don't think it said that the Kandra "went their own way" - it said they got weirder when they were no longer forced to always be in human form.  Seems like what happened at the end of Era 1.  They're all pretty weird in Era 2 and say very similar kinds of things to what Ulaam says in this story.  Sazed already mostly lets them do what they want in Era 2.

 

Separately My Thoughts About the Book: I really like the overall story.  It was great worldbuilding and I really liked the character of Tress and her positive outlook on the world.  I did not like that it was told through Hoid's voice.  Something always feels off when Sanderson tries "whimsical" as he put it in the postscript.  I think he lays it on a little too thick.  Or maybe, it being a full length novel it was just too much.  Didn't really like the whole modern day cultural references being thrown in either - laptops, socks & sandals, etc.  I know that eventually the Cosmere is going to be modern day or even future tech, but didn't expect it to just be a copy of our own culture.  Overall I liked the book and I'm happy we got it as a "bonus."  Totally appreciate that Sanderson was writing this to work on developing his writing so the writing style doesn't have to be to my taste.  I also think it shows the kind of cool things he can come up with when he's not feeling constrained to complete a multi-decade epic story that's being told over multiple series.  If we could only cut out the Hoid narrator, this would easily be one of my top 5 Sanderson books.  Even with that, it's still good.

[Necessary Eagle]

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

So you are making the assumption that the Kandra scattered immediately after being released from Harmony's service?

let me find the most relevant quotes, first of all.

Quote

I swear, they’ve all been getting weirder ever since Sazed released them

Quote

Ulaam, it should be noted, is not known for his bedside manner—as I’ve pointed out, his people lost something when they stopped being forced to imitate actual humans. I can genuinely say that without that burden, they’ve all become increasingly themselves over the decades.

So yes, that's the general impression I get.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Necessary Eagle

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

My Thoughts About the Book: I really like the overall story.  It was great worldbuilding and I really liked the character of Tress and her positive outlook on the world.  I did not like that it was told through Hoid's voice.  Something always feels off when Sanderson tries "whimsical" as he put it in the postscript.  I think he lays it on a little too thick.  Or maybe, it being a full length novel it was just too much.  Didn't really like the whole modern day cultural references being thrown in either - laptops, socks & sandals, etc.  I know that eventually the Cosmere is going to be modern day or even future tech, but didn't expect it to just be a copy of our own culture.  Overall I liked the book and I'm happy we got it as a "bonus."  Totally appreciate that Sanderson was writing this to work on developing his writing so the writing style doesn't have to be to my taste.  I also think it shows the kind of cool things he can come up with when he's not feeling constrained to complete a multi-decade epic story that's being told over multiple series.  If we could only cut out the Hoid narrator, this would easily be one of my top 5 Sanderson books.  Even with that, it's still good.

This was my immediate reaction upon reading the early released chapter of SP1 - I guess I can call it by its full title now, or at least TatES to separate it from TES as “The Emperor’s Soul”? LOL

Not the “Hoid’s voice” thing, as I really liked the Wandersail, Dragon and the Dog, The Girl Who Looked Up, etc., stories that he tells Kaladin and Shallan in The Stormlight Archive, but the second point you make: the rather frequent allusions and references to our “modern” world that to me, break the fourth wall in a jarring (versus fun) way for a fantasy work.

Yes, you can make the excuse that “this is set in a future context and Hoid is telling this story to someone who would know these terms”, but really it feels like Hoid is throwing around stuff that is “out of this world” for his in-world audience to amuse himself. The problem is, there is a huge difference between, say, telling Kaladin a story involving a dog (where Kaladin doesn’t know what that even is), to making outright analogies not just to “laptops” or “programming” but “vending machines” and the difference between “a team taking a time out” versus “tearing down a stadium to build a new one”.

It feels like one of three things is going on to justify this:

1. The future of the Cosmere converges extremely closely to our present-day world,
2. The far past of Yolen did so (when/where Hoid grew up) - or both, I suppose?,
3. This is Sanderson claiming Tolkien-like “translation rights” in reframing for us a story told by Cosmere-Hoid to Cosmere-Whoever in Cosmere Words, into Modern English words and references we would get.

I say “Tolkien-like” because if you ever read the Appendices to The Return of the King, JRRT talks about how he “translated” things for days of the week, the calendar, common names like “Sam”, etc., to be more familiar to English readers, versus their actual Westron terms and Shire contexts… Kind of eye-glazing, LOL.

In Tolkien’s case, it was something of a conceit of detailed world-building - but if you need to resort to that to wave away casually breaking the fourth wall in a fantasy work, that’s another level.

If Hoid’s telling a story in-world, as with Kaladin and Shallan, it should come off as in-world - not Hoid telling ME the story. Which a few hints in the story make clear he is telling someone like Sixth of the Dusk the story and all these modern day terms/comparisons are Hoid amusing himself with “over their head” references, but that goes back to scenario 1 or 2 then.

[drunkenbotanist]

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

Didn't really like the whole modern day cultural references being thrown in either - laptops, socks & sandals, etc.  I know that eventually the Cosmere is going to be modern day or even future tech, but didn't expect it to just be a copy of our own culture.

 

11 minutes ago, robardin said:

Yes, you can make the excuse that “this is set in a future context and Hoid is telling this story to someone who would know these terms”, but really it feels like Hoid is throwing around stuff that is “out of this world” for his in-world audience to amuse himself. The problem is, there is a huge difference between, say, telling Kaladin a story involving a dog (where Kaladin doesn’t know what that even is), to making outright analogies not just to “laptops” or “programming” but “vending machines” and the difference between “a team taking a time out” versus “tearing down a stadium to build a new one”.

Mistborn era 3 is going to involve computer programmers, and Scadrial is supposed to be the most earth like. I think in future cosmere books we should be prepared for words like laptop and programming

Mistborn era 4 is going to be a space opera, SP3 world absolutely has vending machines we could assume? 

Wayne basically invents organized sports in TLM.

 

I don't think Brandon is going to invent new words for basically identifical technology everywhere in the scifi stuff and I don't want him to. 

[agrabes]

20 minutes ago, robardin said:

This was my immediate reaction upon reading the early released chapter of SP1 - I guess I can call it by its full title now, or at least TatES to separate it from TES as “The Emperor’s Soul”? LOL

Not the “Hoid’s voice” thing, as I really liked the Wandersail, Dragon and the Dog, The Girl Who Looked Up, etc., stories that he tells Kaladin and Shallan in The Stormlight Archive, but the second point you make: the rather frequent allusions and references to our “modern” world that to me, break the fourth wall in a jarring (versus fun) way for a fantasy work.

Yes, you can make the excuse that “this is set in a future context and Hoid is telling this story to someone who would know these terms”, but really it feels like Hoid is throwing around stuff that is “out of this world” for his in-world audience to amuse himself. The problem is, there is a huge difference between, say, telling Kaladin a story involving a dog (where Kaladin doesn’t know what that even is), to making outright analogies not just to “laptops” or “programming” but “vending machines” and the difference between “a team taking a time out” versus “tearing down a stadium to build a new one”.

It feels like one of three things is going on to justify this:

1. The future of the Cosmere converges extremely closely to our present-day world,
2. The far past of Yolen did so (when/where Hoid grew up) - or both, I suppose?,
3. This is Sanderson claiming Tolkien-like “translation rights” in reframing for us a story told by Cosmere-Hoid to Cosmere-Whoever in Cosmere Words, into Modern English words and references we would get.

I say “Tolkien-like” because if you ever read the Appendices to The Return of the King, JRRT talks about how he “translated” things for days of the week, the calendar, common names like “Sam”, etc., to be more familiar to English readers, versus their actual Westron terms and Shire contexts… Kind of eye-glazing, LOL.

In Tolkien’s case, it was something of a conceit of detailed world-building - but if you need to resort to that to wave away casually breaking the fourth wall in a fantasy work, that’s another level.

If Hoid’s telling a story in-world, as with Kaladin and Shallan, it should come off as in-world - not Hoid telling ME the story. Which a few hints in the story make clear he is telling someone like Sixth of the Dusk the story and all these modern day terms/comparisons are Hoid amusing himself with “over their head” references, but that goes back to scenario 1 or 2 then.

Yes, good point.  I did enjoy Hoid telling his stories to Kaladin and Shallan.  I think it's that in those stories, he (Hoid) is tailoring them to serve a purpose with a character in the main story so he's either mean or kind based on what the person needs to hear at the time, while in this book it's more of the raw, unfiltered Hoid since he's not tailoring it to an audience.  If anything, he is breaking the fourth wall and tailoring it to Sanderson superfans (for example, where he confirms that steel is used to "push" spores).

11 minutes ago, drunkenbotanist said:

 

Mistborn era 3 is going to involve computer programmers, and Scadrial is supposed to be the most earth like. I think in future cosmere books we should be prepared for words like laptop and programming

Mistborn era 4 is going to be a space opera, SP3 world absolutely has vending machines we could assume? 

Wayne basically invents organized sports in TLM.

 

I don't think Brandon is going to invent new words for basically identifical technology everywhere in the scifi stuff and I don't want him to. 

Yes, Mistborn Era 3 will be set with 1980's level technology, so when it comes to that point we'll expect to see computers and relatively modern technology.  We might or might not see laptops.  It's not basic words like programming that bother me, but specific ones that refer to our in world culture.  For example, if you look at SciFi unless it's meant to be based in a future version of the real world you aren't going to see them use the word "laptop" or "tablet".  They will have some other device that fulfills a similar function, but "laptop" is a term specific to our current culture.  Same with socks and sandals being bad fashion - specific to our culture.  However, they will use basic terms like "computer" or "programming" because those are generic descriptive words.  We are meant to think they have a computer in Star Wars, but we aren't meant to think it's a Dell laptop with software that was programmed in C++ or Java because those things weren't invented a long time ago in a galaxy far away.  They generally use the term "datapad" for tablet/laptop in Star Wars.  Even in Mistborn Era 2 - they invent light bulbs but don't call them light bulbs because that wouldn't make sense.  I don't think Sanderson will generally continue this 4th wall breaking style, I think it's specific to Hoid's voice and what he wanted to do with this specific story.

[IndigoAjah]

Anyone think the similarities between the seas of spores/Aethers and the sea of beads in Shadesmar in Roshar means anything?

[FireandAshes]

12 hours ago, leafelf said:

Also I just want to say I love the art!!  Especially the one where Hoid is having an epic wizard duel while dressed as a dad on vacation 

That was probably my favorite, too. If i dare to be disappointed over the overabundance of art we got (honestly we were spoiled) is that I wish there had been more dragon stuff. 

[FireandAshes]

Just now, IndigoAjah said:

Anyone think the similarities between the seas of spores/Aethers and the sea of beads in Shadesmar in Roshar means anything?

what sort of similarities do you mean? Honestly I don't think so, but maybe I could be convinced? 

[IndigoAjah]

20 minutes ago, FireandAshes said:

what sort of similarities do you mean? Honestly I don't think so, but maybe I could be convinced? 

Well, 2 seas made up of small, spherical solid matter that's all basically unique invested objects and acts like a fluid.

 

 

[+robardin]

20 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

Anyone think the similarities between the seas of spores/Aethers and the sea of beads in Shadesmar in Roshar means anything?

Nah, just one of those Cosmere coincidences, I’m guessing. I mean, it can’t ALL be tied together underneath, or something, right? Pfft.

[The Bookwyrm]

I'm copying the SU I made into here so people can comment on it and discuss. Keep in mind that I have not read the rest of this thread at this point.

Tress of the Emerald Sea.

This book was storming incredible.

The characters and the plot are wonderful and fit perfectly into the universe of the Cosmere. The worldbuilding is also incredible. The idea of the spore oceans, and all of the implications that come with that, intrigues me greatly. It's so interesting.

And while the story was beautiful, that's not what I want to talk about.

I want to talk about Hoid, and all the references he makes.

I think Brandon understands now that a large portion of his audience are hyper-aware Cosmerenauts like us. He's made a story that can be enjoyed by anyone, but has specifically designed it so that, coupled with Hoid's voice, it gives us tantalizing hints that make us sit up and yell "What?!" before dazedly flopping on the ground and trying to figure out what it all means.

That happened to me like, eight times in this book alone. I don't even remember all of them.

Aethers. Here's a little sort of meme:

Spoiler

 

Brandon Sanderson: "I have been lying to you, and it's time for me to admit the truth."

What Brandon says: "I wrote four secret novels without telling anyone!"

What Brandon thinks but doesn't say: "I've been using Aethers the whole time without telling anyone!"

 

And I don't know how accurate that really is, but two things stand out to me:

First, Midnight Essence. Associated with Re-Shephir, the Midnight Mother. At least, that's what we all thought. But now we know that it's actually an activated form of Aether.

What?! How?! Why is an Unmade, formed by Odium, using an Aether?!

Also, White Sand. I made a thread about it, and I think Koloss17 did, too; the White Sand of Taldain has far too much in common with these Aethers to be an independent magic system. I think it's a form of Aether. Perhaps an Aether infused with Autonomy's investiture, or something, but an Aether nonetheless. (Maybe that's the answer to the Re-Shepir conundrum; even if the Aethers were originally independent of Adonalsium (if that's really true), a Shard can somehow Invest an Aether in the same way they invest a planet and make it a part of them...)

Multiple Scadrial references. Hoid refers to an "adversary" of himself that likes to use the term "For every Push, a Pull." I'm guessing it's everyone's favorite Scadrian Thaidakar, A.K.A Kelsier.

Also, our good friend Sazed has "freed" the Kandra by this point in the Cosmere, whatever that means. I wonder what's going on at the Scadrian homefront, especially after some little hints about "Discord" in TLM...

Also, Tress mentions Death having spikes in his eyes?! What the scud is Marsh up to?!

What else....

This is obviously in the future of the Cosmere. It could be Sixth of the Dusk era...in fact, I think Hoid might be telling the story to someone of First of the Sun, considering he mentions high-tech spaceships landing on the audience's homeworld.

While I had foreseen Scadrian technology following an Earthlike path, and Rosharan technology achieving similar effects through Stormlight Fabrials, it seems Nalthians are doing cool stuff with Awakening based technology. 

Xisis is definitely the Foil mentioned in the RoW epigraphs. I think.

Oh yeah, first canonical entry of dragonsteel. Interesting....

The Ire seem to be doing weird shenanigans...either that or Riina is a rouge Elantrian now who likes causing trouble. She has access to several different magic systems...Awakening, AonDor, other magic based technologies...also, we have our first canonical actual spaceship besides the stuff in Sixth of the Dusk. That whole thing was weird...

Yeah, concrete evidence that we're in the space age of the Cosmere, and little tidbits of all the technologies being produced by the leading worlds.

There's a really deep ocean on Threnody somewhere.

What else am I forgetting....

Oh yeah. Hoid specifically mentions him being part of a plot to kill God. Adonalsium. 

And he and the Vessels apparently told Adonalsium that his/her/their/its death was for his/her/their/its own good?

What?

This is the end of my ramblings for now. Brandon specifically wrote this book to tease the rest of us. He knows his audience. He knows we spent far too long looking at the clues, and he's using that to throw us for a loop. Giving us just enough to baffle us, but not enough to spoil anything.

I love it. I can't wait for SP3 and SP4.

This man is a mad genius, and I can't wait to see where he takes us next.

Edited January 2, 2023 by The Bookwyrm