Another OP thing Bondsmiths can do.

[Frustration]

Not a long post just a thing I noticed.

So, I found this WoB for another thread,

Spoiler

Doom-Slayer

So how do the exact mechanics of Feruchemy in relation to Compounding work?

This confusion is primarily around how [the Lord Ruler] gets his near infinite age.

Okay. So first off, I understand the concept of how they work. Feruchemy is net zero, Allomancy is net positive, combine them and you end with a net positive Feruchemy ability.

So how Feruchemy normally works... you take say weight, store half your normal weight and then you can access it whenever you want. So you (originally X weight) are taking A weight, storing it, and then you are at (X-A) weight, with access to A. So we have a metalmind that store magnitude with the efficiency of how its received based on how quickly or slowly it is drawn upon.

All the metalminds except atium seem to act this way. Atium seems to work as storing magnitude/time rather than just magnitude. The way I understand it is that say a 30 year old person becomes 50 years old for 1 day, this would give access to 20 years difference for a 1 day period.

The Lord Ruler then exploits this by gaining access to say 20 years difference over 10 days (magnification by Compounding) which he then slowly feeds into himself to lower his age.

Why this difference? I'm assuming its to maintain a neutral "body age" because with just magnitude a person could permanently make themselves younger by Compounding.

With just magnitude of "20 years of youth" being stored, if the Lord Ruler magnified it, he could turn it into "200 years of youth" and then he would never need the constant stream off youth (and wouldn't have died without the bracelets)

Hope this makes sense.

Brandon Sanderson

All right, so there are a few things you have to understand about cosmere magics to grok all of this.

First, is that magics can be hacked together. You'll see more of this in the future of the cosmere, but an early one is the hack here--where you're essentially powering Feruchemy with Allomancy. (A little more complex than that, but it seems like you get the idea.)

The piece you're missing is the nature of a person's Spiritual aspect. This is similar to a Platonic idea--the idea that there's a perfect version of everyone somewhere. It's a mix of their connections to places, people, and times with raw Investiture. The soul, you might say.

(Note that over time, a person's perception of themselves shapes their Cognitive aspect as well, and the Cognitive aspect can interfere with the Spiritual aspect trying to make the Physical aspect repair itself.) Healing in the cosmere often works by aligning your Physical self with your Spiritual self--making the Physical regrow. More powerful forms of Investiture can repair the soul as well.

However, your age is part of your Connection to places, people, and times. Your soul "knows" things, like where you were born, what Investiture you are aligned with, and--yes--how old you are. When you're healing yourself, you're restoring yourself to a perfect state--when you're done, everything is good. When you're changing your age, however, you are transforming yourself to something unnatural. Against what your soul understands to be true.

So the Spiritual aspect will push for a restoration to the way you should be. With this Compounding hack, you're not changing connection; it's a purely Physical Realm change.

This dichotomy cannot remain for long. And the greater the disparity, the more pressure the spirit will exert. Ten or twenty years won't matter much. A thousand will matter a lot. So the only way to use Compounding to change your age is to store up all this extra youth in a metalmind, then be constantly tapping it to counteract the soul's attempt to restore you to how you should be.

Yes, all of this means there are FAR more efficient means of counteracting aging than the one used by the Lord Ruler. It's a hack, and not meant to be terribly efficient. Eventually, he wouldn't have been able to maintain himself this way at all. Changing Connection (or even involving ones Cognitive Aspect a little more) would have been far more efficient, though actively more difficult.

Though this is the point where I ping [Peter Ahlstrom] and get him to double-check all this. Once in a while, my fingers still type the wrong term in places. (See silvereye vs tineye.)

General Reddit 2015 (Nov. 20, 2015)

And it mentions that age is part of your Connection.

That means Bondsmiths can make anyone biologically immortal, or switch peoples ages, and probably a whole bunch of other stuff.

[Eternal Khol he/him]

I always thought stuff like changing age and what not was a implied Bondsmith power from the pretty early on? A spiritweb is for lack of better word, a  “gathering” of Connections a person has to places, people, time, Shards, etc...

I mean, its not too surprising when you have someone who has the ability to make/change Connection, and sooooo much of who someone is in the Cosmere is very directly constructed from their Spiritweb/Connections.

[Letryx13]

This is part of the reason why I think that BondSmiths could potentially defeat FullBorns. We don't know their upper limit, and the things we've seen them do so far are crazy enough.  If Ishar could steal Dalinar's connection to the StormFather, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that a BondSmith could alter someone's spirit web to steal powers their born with, like MetalBorn.

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

10 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

This is part of the reason why I think that BondSmiths could potentially defeat FullBorns. We don't know their upper limit, and the things we've seen them do so far are crazy enough.  If Ishar could steal Dalinar's connection to the StormFather, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that a BondSmith could alter someone's spirit web to steal powers their born with, like MetalBorn.

Ishar could also steal Dalinar's Connection to Odium, and Allomancy is technically a Bond to Preservation/Harmony so in my mind the answer is probably.

Bondsmiths are just so OP it's not even funny. It's a good thing there can only ever be 4 at anytime or they'd just break the whole Cosmere over their knees.

[Letryx13]

1 hour ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Ishar could also steal Dalinar's Connection to Odium, and Allomancy is technically a Bond to Preservation/Harmony so in my mind the answer is probably.

Bondsmiths are just so OP it's not even funny. It's a good thing there can only ever be 4 at anytime or they'd just break the whole Cosmere over their knees.

I suspect that's the reason (both Honor's and Sanderson's) for limiting them to only 4 at a time.  But yeah, that's basically what I was thinking.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Letryx13
Incomplete

[Frustration]

You know, a Bondsmith made the Oathpact, so they could potentially give anyone the Heralds ability to reincarnate.

[offer]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

You know, a Bondsmith made the Oathpact, so they could potentially give anyone the Heralds ability to reincarnate.

Probably there was also a massive Honor involvment in the oathpact - I don`t think it is a regular bondsmith power.

[StanLemon]

21 minutes ago, offer said:

Probably there was also a massive Honor involvment in the oathpact - I don`t think it is a regular bondsmith power.

While I think people overestimate Bondsmiths, they seem to at least be able to add someone to the Oathpact to gain Herald like resurection

Spoiler

In the SL5 Prologue, The "Stormfather" seemed quite confident that people could be added to the Oathpact

[offer]

On 27.12.2022 at 9:21 PM, StanLemon said:

While I think people overestimate Bondsmiths, they seem to at least be able to add someone to the Oathpact to gain Herald like resurection

  Hide contents

In the SL5 Prologue, The "Stormfather" seemed quite confident that people could be added to the Oathpact

KOWT (SA5) spoilers 

Spoiler

It is possible that the proccess the stormfather was planning included something more than just bondsmith - maybe something that uses Honor`s power or some other weird thing.

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by offer
Fixed the spoiler box.

[StanLemon]

While possibly true, it almost certainly would have needed a Bondsmith as a very crucial element

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 12/27/2022 at 1:30 PM, offer said:

KOWT (SA5) spoilers 

You used a quote block rather than a spoiler block, fyi.

[Chinsukolo]

On 12/27/2022 at 9:09 AM, Letryx13 said:

I suspect that's the reason (both Honor's and Sanderson's) for limiting them to only 4 at a time.  But yeah, that's basically what I was thinking.

I thought they had said only 3 Bondsmiths (Honor/Cultivation/Sibling) ?  Like early in SA1 or SA2.    Am I totally misremembering, or did something new happen and I missed it?

[Letryx13]

1 hour ago, Chinsukolo said:

I thought they had said only 3 Bondsmiths (Honor/Cultivation/Sibling) ?  Like early in SA1 or SA2.    Am I totally misremembering, or did something new happen and I missed it?

Including the BondSmith Honor blade, there are four. 

[Chinsukolo]

ahh guess that's just me then, i wouldn't have considered the honor blade as a bondsmith, since seperated form the blade they'd have nothing.  But makes sense, thank you.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

What about squires?

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

If aging is based on connection then wouldn't compounding duralumin be a more effective way to stay ageless on Scadrial as well?  

I have also held onto the theory that identity compounding could well short circuit a way to achieve some bonkers healing and perhaps connection could do that as well.  

These spiritual attributes could well become a bigger deal in more than just your bondsmiths.  It could change a lot more about the metallic arts as well. 

[Frustration]

21 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

What about squires?

They can probably do the same thing.

 

20 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

If aging is based on connection then wouldn't compounding duralumin be a more effective way to stay ageless on Scadrial as well?  

Probably storing the Connection, but yes. However that would only work for you.

[Immortal Platypus]

i also wouldn't consider an honorblade bondsmith a true bondsmith because they have no chains (caused by oaths) and use more Light 

[Frustration]

43 minutes ago, Being of Cacophony said:

i also wouldn't consider an honorblade bondsmith a true bondsmith because they have no chains (caused by oaths) and use more Light 

Squires use more light and have no oaths.

[Werewolff Studios he/him]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Squires use more light and have no oaths.

Correct, but they're not 'true Bondsmiths' either. Is Szeth a Windrunner when he holds Jezrien's blade, or is he merely using their Surges? 

I don't believe we've exactly seen how their squires function either. Can they manipulate Connection to the extent we've seen Dalinar and Ishar do, or is there usage of the Surges more similar to how the Stonewards and Windrunners use them? If there's been an example I've missed, feel free to correct me though.

[cometaryorbit]

I thought Bondsmiths didn't get true (Surge using) squires, though their retinue were called squires?

[Frustration]

On 1/18/2023 at 7:14 PM, cometaryorbit said:

I thought Bondsmiths didn't get true (Surge using) squires, though their retinue were called squires?

They have both

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Bondsmith

I will unite

Bondsmith oaths are focused on unity, unification, and bringing others together. However, this is a loose theme, as there are so few Bondsmiths—and the three sources of their powers are so different in personality—that the oaths can end up taking a variety of different shapes, depending on the situation.

Anyone can become a Bondsmith, subject to persuading one of the three spren who grant Bondsmith powers. Those powers tend to work differently for one Bondsmith than another, and even those Surges they share with other Orders tend to work differently for Bondsmiths.

The Bondsmiths are unusual in that there are never more than three full members. Historically, they worked to resolve disputes and help set up functioning governments. Even though there can only be three full members, there were times that some Bondsmiths did take squires. Beyond that, many of the retinues that protected the Bondsmiths were considered members of the Order–going so far as to swear oaths, even though they didn’t have a spren and never would. Some even called this the most pure form of being a Radiant, because these were oaths sworn not in the name of gaining powers, but simply for the good of the oaths themselves.

Bondsmiths are generally the heart and soul of the Radiants, the most protected and highly regarded of the Orders, capable of doing incredible things with the nature of oaths, bonds, and power. The Order, including the aforementioned squires and attendants, tends to attract the peacemakers of the world, those who want to bring people together rather than divide them.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/424/#e13781

 

 

Edited January 20, 2023 by Frustration

[cometaryorbit]

Hmm, ok, so the retinue without powers are distinct from squires?

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Hmm, ok, so the retinue without powers are distinct from squires?

Yep.