Prologue disappointment

[bmcclure7]

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Doesn't matter, we do.

Yes, walk to braize and grab some.

Because every character has thoughts we can't see, doesn't make them smart.

1.Why dosnt it matter 

2.your guessing

3. No but it doesn't make him more knowledgeable.

4.  If it's his intelligence you're disappointed in. Just look at what he achieved. Created his own nation,  Defeated the high princes,  Manipulated Dalinar for years,   Manipulated a literal Herald for years, Manipulated the stormfacker,   Was steps away from becoming immortal, Are you saying all this means hes not smart?

[Rg2045]

Ah finally, three things 

1) I been wanting to start a form about gavilar. And how he is even better after the prologue this is close enough to fight for my points. 
 

2) one of two things happened that gave gavilar anti voidlight. 2a) the ghostbloods created it and gave it to gavilar. 2b) the people that made it were killed in the assassination.

gavilar doesn’t have the knowledge to do this but he has the resources both on and off world to have it done. 
 

3) no matter if you believe stormfaker or true stormfather. Gavilar was being misled. And this misleading made gavilar believe that he would be a herald and be immortal. If he knew he would be a bondsmith and that the words don’t matter but the intent behind the words. Then he would have made leaps and bounds just by opening his research. Also if Dalinar is a dawnshard (tho ishar and hoid seems to be the people to know if he was one) then he might have received it from gavilar somehow. Especially if he got it from The Way of Kings book. (And we would know gavilar read it so much that he had it memorized, and nobody else really wanted anything to do with it.)

basically gavilar had multiple spinning plates and through a translation error(or a cultural one) he screwed up. (My belief is that he believed that sense they called the fused gods they wanted their return, or that he told eshoni that he would kill them be she didn’t listen) 

The literal piece that doesn’t “work” or fit. Or shouldn’t fit is szeth. He never should have been there. And he was the only one who could kill a king that night. 
anyways I would like to discuss more. I like gavilar more and more each book. And after the prologue it just adds more to him imo

[Frustration]

20 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

1.Why dosnt it matter 

Because we know that. Whether the characters do is irrelevant.

20 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

2.your guessing

No, I'm not it was revealed in RoW.

20 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

3. No but it doesn't make him more knowledgeable.

That makes no sense.

20 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

4.  If it's his intelligence you're disappointed in. Just look at what he achieved. Created his own nation,  Defeated the high princes,  Manipulated Dalinar for years,   Manipulated a literal Herald for years, Manipulated the stormfacker,   Was steps away from becoming immortal, Are you saying all this means hes not smart?

Every time we saw him he revealed new knowledge, but the prologue shows that everything we saw was the ONLY things he knew that were correct. If that isn't a complete 180 I don't know what is.

17 hours ago, Rg2045 said:

2) one of two things happened that gave gavilar anti voidlight. 2a) the ghostbloods created it and gave it to gavilar. 2b) the people that made it were killed in the assassination.

gavilar doesn’t have the knowledge to do this but he has the resources both on and off world to have it done. 

Both of those are wrong, none of the scientists were killed by Szeth, and Gavilar says that Thaidakar only provided knowledge. So even if you accept the prologue that's not true.

18 hours ago, Rg2045 said:

3) no matter if you believe stormfaker or true stormfather. Gavilar was being misled. And this misleading made gavilar believe that he would be a herald and be immortal. If he knew he would be a bondsmith and that the words don’t matter but the intent behind the words. Then he would have made leaps and bounds just by opening his research. Also if Dalinar is a dawnshard (tho ishar and hoid seems to be the people to know if he was one) then he might have received it from gavilar somehow. Especially if he got it from The Way of Kings book. (And we would know gavilar read it so much that he had it memorized, and nobody else really wanted anything to do with it.)

basically gavilar had multiple spinning plates and through a translation error(or a cultural one) he screwed up. (My belief is that he believed that sense they called the fused gods they wanted their return, or that he told eshoni that he would kill them be she didn’t listen) 

The literal piece that doesn’t “work” or fit. Or shouldn’t fit is szeth. He never should have been there. And he was the only one who could kill a king that night. 
anyways I would like to discuss more. I like gavilar more and more each book. And after the prologue it just adds more to him imo

That's exactly my problem.

[Rg2045]

20 hours ago, Frustration said:

Both of those are wrong, none of the scientists were killed by Szeth, and Gavilar says that Thaidakar only provided knowledge. So even if you accept the prologue that's not true.

It could be another off world group, I just can’t see where gavilar would make this.(if he was a bondsmith then I could believe it) and I don’t see why someone in the Sons of Honor wouldn’t tell at least Amaram. We also could be missing big revelations by Brandon straight up not revealing it. 
I don’t see gavilar doing this because he wasn’t even in the second oath. Something that people stumble apon by simply being sincere. 
people that say the oaths know more and more know that intent is the most important piece. 

I do think tho that he was getting closer. Especially after meaning the words he said. Tho he might just start saying demands. 

[Greywatch she/her]

Gavilar is exactly who I thought he was going to be and I couldn't be happier about it. He thought he knew so much, and hey, at the time he died, he did know a lot more than anyone else what was going on. It was just such a perfect and dramatic choice for his POV to be revealed like this, in book 5, when the reader knows more than Gavilar. I am ecstatic that Gavilar is much more ignorant and overconfident than anyone knew; all I'm sad about is that Dalinar held such respect and admiration for this worm of a man.

[Leuthie]

I don't see an idiot in the Prologue. I see a human being with huge power playing a game way over his head and being played by forces much older and smarter than he is. If he kept his head out of the Cosmere, he would have continued to be a great, powerful and decent leader. In the bigger Cosmere game, he was the mark and he got played. I think Brandon did a pretty good job of making that clear in this Prologue.

[agrabes]

Jumping into this a bit late - I was disappointed but not completely surprised in Gavilar's status in the SA5 prologue.  I think this was heavily foreshadowed in the Navani prologue.  I'm a little disappointed because I feel like the fact that Gavilar was actually a pretty bad guy who was selfish and could never have really achieved anything is a bit of a tired trope.  When Sanderson was originally plotting this out back in the 00's it would have subverted the way most fantasy would have handled things.  In 2002 mainstream fantasy Gavilar would have been a philosopher king who conquered the world by the power of his wisdom who died by an evil betrayer, so it would have been interesting for him to turn out to be kind of a crappy guy.  In 2022 we expect there to be a reveal that Gavilar is rotten on the inside.  For me, it fell flat. 

I think what bothers me about it is that it doesn't feel very "Sanderson."  Sanderson's biggest themes have always been about seeing the best in people, even if others doubt them.  It's about how you should give people a chance even if they seem bad, because they can't change if you don't give them a chance.  It felt right for Sadeas to be punished because he'd been built up from day one as a bad guy and he was given a chance to redeem himself, which he chose not to take.  This Gavilar plot from ROW and the SA5 prologue feels like it's about taking a guy who seems to us like he has definitely done some good and some bad in his life and telling us "Hey - this guy is a terrible person you all need to hate if you want to be a decent person."  It feels bad.  I do think Sanderson intended us to slowly piece together that we'd been seeing Gavilar through Dalinar's rose colored glasses and he was never quite as noble as Dalinar thought.  I don't mind the concept, it just feels off for some reason.  I think maybe it would have been better if we saw Dalinar figure it out first and then had it confirmed in the Gavilar POV prologue?

I didn't come to like Sanderson because his writing showed people getting what was coming to them - I liked Sanderson because his stories were about people overcoming bad circumstances and lifting themselves up.  He very rarely cast people as irredeemable or purely bad.  I would have rather seen that at heart Gavilar was doing all these things for what he thought was a good reason and not just selfishness and lust for power.  Or maybe a moment of reflection at the end where he thinks to himself that he lost his way and regretted the person he had become late in his life.

 

[Eluvianii he/him]

I don't know. He was definitely driven by ego and ambition but Brandon does make sure to write the shadow of what once may have been a good person. 

For me it was when he decides to be harsh with Navani. We're told it was a choice, that he was actively trying to put distance between them so it will hurt less when he inevitably leaves her behind. 

Then his point about eternal war comes. This sounds foolish and selfish but I think it just comes to show how ingrained into him Alethi ideals were. War is the greatest art a man can pursue, men who die at war will help the Almighty in the war to recover the Tranquiline Halls, so the more men die at war the more help the Almighty has. Figuring out a way to fight forever would be nothing short of godly for that mentality. 

Stormlight is a series about change. People change, spren change, societies change, perceptions change. Dalinar as the one leading the war effort embodies that change, being the character that makes the biggest 180 so far. He is willing to drop everything he's ever believed in because it's the right thing to do. Gavilar was the most perfect Alethi we get to see, his belief in what he was doing was unshakeable, and that is exactly why he would have led Roshar to its doom. 

Of course by the end even he was doing some things that may be considered pagan, but his ultimate goal was as aligned with Vorin belief as can be. I think that's what we're supposed to see here, the massive contrast between Gavilar, stoic and immovable, looking straight forward, and Dalinar, open and malleable, staring in all directions ever looking for the right path. And why one of them failed where the other succeeded. 

[Frustration]

Alright, I'm bringing this back up, because I finished my reread, and wanted to make notes on the massive character betrayal this is.

1. Gavilar was said to know that Kalak was a Herald RoW 927
2. Gavilar knew that spren bonds were needed for Radiance RoW 616
3. Gavilar was already working with Nale RoW 887

This prologue Gavilar is not the same person we were shown in the other books.

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by Frustration

[alder24]

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Alright, I'm bringing this back up, because I finished my reread, and wanted to make notes on the massive character betrayal this is.

1. Gavilar was said to know that Kalak was a Herald RoW 927
2. Gavilar knew that spren bonds were needed for Radiance RoW 616
3. Gavilar was already working with Nale RoW 887

This prologue Gavilar is not the same person we were sown in the other books.

Could you provide chapters?

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Could you provide chapters?

Right.

1.  Chapter 82
2.  Chapter 48
3. Chapter 77

[NameIess]

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

Alright, I'm bringing this back up, because I finished my reread, and wanted to make notes on the massive character betrayal this is.

1. Gavilar was said to know that Kalak was a Herald RoW 927
2. Gavilar knew that spren bonds were needed for Radiance RoW 616
3. Gavilar was already working with Nale RoW 887

This prologue Gavilar is not the same person we were sown in the other books.

 

RoW 927 says that Gavilar may have known, not that he did. In 616 Venli talks about Radiants and spren, but unless I'm forgetting something from the prologue there's no indication that Gavilar doesn't know how the KR were made, only that he doesn't know the oaths, which Venli didn't speak about. 887 does seem to be a continuity error, but considering this is a first draft, it's safe to say that it will be fixed in the completed version.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

Alright, I'm bringing this back up, because I finished my reread, and wanted to make notes on the massive character betrayal this is.

1. Gavilar was said to know that Kalak was a Herald RoW 927
2. Gavilar knew that spren bonds were needed for Radiance RoW 616
3. Gavilar was already working with Nale RoW 887

This prologue Gavilar is not the same person we were sown in the other books.

 

1. The quote is...

Quote

 Gavilar may have known,

And we know that Mraize doesn't have full knowledge of what Gavilar knew.

2. You are confusing Gavilar with Axindweth. She is the one asking Eshonai about talking spren. 

3.

Quote

 He lures us with promises, then breaks them by seeking that which I told him was forbidden!

Which is actually very much consistent with what happened in the prologue. Unless there is some other quote that you are talking about.

In fact I think that this twist has been planned since Oathbringer atleast.

Quote

“Words are important,” Gavilar said. “Much more than you give them credit for being.”

“Perhaps,” Dalinar said. “But if they were all-powerful, you wouldn’t need my sword, would you?”

“Perhaps. I can’t help feeling words would be enough, if only I knew the right ones to say.”

This conversation happens when Adolin is born. Dalinar and Gavilar are talking about diplomacy here, for sure. But the fact that the chapter ends on this quote, and that Gavilar changes as a person before Dalinar's wedding makes me think he had started to 'bond' the Stormfather already. It is clearly laden with double meaning. Which means he has been chasing after the words for 20 years. 

 

Also, another question Frustration, did Navani's prologue change nothing of your perception of him? Not only was he awful to her in that prologue, he also says 'I will never end' which is clear broadcasting that this guy is an arrogant dou***bag. Infact the whole prologue is about Navani realising that Gavilar was just a man, flesh and blood. It ties really well into her own arc of self worth. The whole prologue showed us that he only cared about his legacy, nothing more. Not a good guy at all

Also another big hint that Gavilar was not a good guy was that he was totally fine with the murder of the child, Tanalan. In contrast to Dalinar who let the kid go. In fact Gav was angry at Dalinar at not having done his job.

Edited February 25, 2023 by KaladinWorldsinger

[Frustration]

30 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

2. You are confusing Gavilar with Axindweth. She is the one asking Eshonai about talking spren. 

No, I'm not. Eshonai was talking about the Neshua Kadal and their spren companions and Gavilar immediately says "your people have stories of the knight radiant!"

31 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

 3.

Which is actually very much consistent with what happened in the prologue. Unless there is some other quote that you are talking about.

That quote clearly says that Gavilar found Kalak and Nale, and made promises to them. Then Nale told Gavilar not to do something, that he did anyway.

Which does not match up with the prologue.

41 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Also, another question Frustration, did Navani's prologue change nothing of your perception of him?

Not a lot. We've known there were problems in their marriage since WoR, and probably earlier.

43 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Not only was he awful to her in that prologue,

And she herself said he'd give her an apology gift later. There were problems between them, but I never got the feeling that he was the usless idiot with no redeeming qualities we see in the released prologue.

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

No, I'm not. Eshonai was talking about the Neshua Kadal and their spren companions and Gavilar immediately says "your people have stories of the knight radiant!"

That quote clearly says that Gavilar found Kalak and Nale, and made promises to them. Then Nale told Gavilar not to do something, that he did anyway.

Which does not match up with the prologue.

Not a lot. We've known there were problems in their marriage since WoR, and probably earlier.

And she herself said he'd give her an apology gift later. There were problems between them, but I never got the feeling that he was the usless idiot with no redeeming qualities we see in the released prologue.

To repeat myself, the only contradiction we have is that with Nale, and considering that it was the very first draft of the prologue, a continuity error such as that can be excused.

[StanLemon]

I'm only just jumping in to this conversation, but here are my thoughts. I love how Gavilar actually ended up being presented in the prologue.

On 10/8/2022 at 5:09 PM, Frustration said:

I've been waiting for years to see Gavilar's PoV. Ever since book 1 he's been presented as this calculated genius, only a few steps from radiance, with all the tools he needed to fight desolations, who was only stopped by seemingly random chance.

This presentation of Dalinar in book one is meant to lull readers into a false sense of what his character is like, meant to be chipped down over the course of the other books.

Quote

Instead we have this pathetic excuse of a character who doesn't even know half of what we did by book 2. It's rather annoying that he knew just enough that what we saw seemed like a competent individual, and I can't help but feel cheated out of an excellent master planner.

Personally, I think it's a fantastic twist to his character that he merely was full of himself and not the genius he presents himself to be. It's completely in line with the other false beliefs that others had of him that were in contradiction to his real character

Quote

Additionally Gavilar in the flashbacks always seemed so considerate, he wasn't an angel or anything but he seemed a reasonable fellow, not that different from Dalinar. A youth of violence followed by a later life of near radiance.

I hard disagree with this. In Way of Kings and Words of Radiance we get hints of his true personality through character comments, most notably Navani when she's trying to seduce Dalinar that Gavilar wasn't as good as people remember. We really start seeing this in Oathbringer, he is condescending in his praise of Dalinar in flashbacks, showing his view that he considers Dalinar a fantastic tool but nothing more. He's condescending with Eshonai in the prologue, believing that he knows better than her and her people in regards to bringing their gods back.

Quote

Instead we find out Gavilar is a conniving black-hearted individual only in it for himself. And all of his ideals we're nothing more than virtue signaling. It feels like a character assassination.

Frankly Rhythm of War prologue as far as I'm concerned showed how awful of a person he was. His abuse of Navani, his desire to force Jasnah to marry Amaram, and his dismissal of Elhokar. It's blatantly obvious by then that Gavilar is an egotistical asshole at best. All this newest prologue really showed in regards to his character is that he isn't the genius everyone assumed him to be, but was just a pompous man who while somewhat more clever than others, was not as clever as he and everyone else believed him to be. And it showed the depths of just how conceited and self righteous he truly is.

Edited February 25, 2023 by StanLemon

[Heilven he/him]

I definitely agree with StanLemon. I think it was clear in OB that Gavilar was only using Dalinar as a tool, and never really cared much about him. Then everything we learn from Navani's perspective is that he was an unloving husband and father. Navani was one of the only people not in the son's of honor that he ever revealed his true persona to. In her prologue when she talks about how he would "give her an apology gift later" that didn't come off to me like something she accepted. It seemed more like something she actively disliked, as if a gift would actually make up for everything, and his behavior is consistent. In actual relationships this isn't a thing that works, it only breeds resentment.

I only ever really had an image of Gavilar as a selfish tyrant who only cared about his legacy, and I think every book dropped more and more hints that that is true. The only examples that exist of Gavilar being a good, honorable man are from unreliable narrators. Every time he is actually shown his behavior is consistent. We see a man actively manipulating everyone around him.

And I don't think he was an idiot, he was clearly an excellent tactician. He was clearly very intelligent, but also egotistical. He refused to see Navani's value whatsoever, viewing her mostly as a tool for heirs and running the country in his absence.