Prologue disappointment

[Frustration he/him]

I've been waiting for years to see Gavilar's PoV. Ever since book 1 he's been presented as this calculated genius, only a few steps from radiance, with all the tools he needed to fight desolations, who was only stopped by seemingly random chance.

Instead we have this pathetic excuse of a character who doesn't even know half of what we did by book 2. It's rather annoying that he knew just enough that what we saw seemed like a competent individual, and I can't help but feel cheated out of an excellent master planner.

 

Additionally Gavilar in the flashbacks always seemed so considerate, he wasn't an angel or anything but he seemed a reasonable fellow, not that different from Dalinar. A youth of violence followed by a later life of near radiance.

Instead we find out Gavilar is a conniving black-hearted individual only in it for himself. And all of his ideals we're nothing more than virtue signaling. It feels like a character assassination.

 

Needless to say I hope there are some major rewrites before publication.

[NameIess]

29 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I've been waiting for years to see Gavilar's PoV. Ever since book 1 he's been presented as this calculated genius, only a few steps from radiance, with all the tools he needed to fight desolations, who was only stopped by seemingly random chance.

Instead we have this pathetic excuse of a character who doesn't even know half of what we did by book 2. It's rather annoying that he knew just enough that what we saw seemed like a competent individual, and I can't help but feel cheated out of an excellent master planner.

 

Additionally Gavilar in the flashbacks always seemed so considerate, he wasn't an angel or anything but he seemed a reasonable fellow, not that different from Dalinar. A youth of violence followed by a later life of near radiance.

Instead we find out Gavilar is a conniving black-hearted individual only in it for himself. And all of his ideals we're nothing more than virtue signaling. It feels like a character assassination.

 

Needless to say I hope there are some major rewrites before publication.

See, I don’t think that this Gavilar is inconsistent with what we’ve seen at all. We saw that his preconceived notions of the ‘voidbringers’ (aka the parshendi) led to his death at Szeth’s hands. We saw that he was a cremhole in Navani’s prologue, only caring about his image and legacy. No, we didn’t know for certain the depth of his self-centeredness, but that’s because most of our view of him came from Dalinar, who is very much an unreliable narrator when it comes to his brother.

Really, the only revelation related to Gavilar’s character in the prologue that would in my mind qualify as a plot twist is the extent of his incompetence. And that had plenty of foreshadowing. The sons of Honor, started by Gavilar, were the least competent of all the secret organizations on Roshar. He provoked the Parahendi into attacking him, not even considering the possibility that they would do so. While I’m sure Brandon will revise the prologue quite a bit, I don’t see this as anywhere near a character assassination.

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

See, I don’t think that this Gavilar is inconsistent with what we’ve seen at all. We saw that his preconceived notions of the ‘voidbringers’ (aka the parshendi) led to his death at Szeth’s hands.

A misunderstanding of a culture he barely understood, and had a small but still significant language barrier. Is not that unusual.

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

We saw that he was a cremhole in Navani’s prologue, only caring about his image and legacy. No, we didn’t know for certain the depth of his self-centeredness, but that’s because most of our view of him came from Dalinar, who is very much an unreliable narrator when it comes to his brother.

I'm rereading OB at the moment and he spent years learning about the codes, and living with dignity. True he was harsh with Navani but as I said earlier he wasn't perfect.

5 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Really, the only revelation related to Gavilar’s character in the prologue that would in my mind qualify as a plot twist is the extent of his incompetence. And that had plenty of foreshadowing. The sons of Honor, started by Gavilar, were the least competent of all the secret organizations on Roshar. He provoked the Parahendi into attacking him, not even considering the possibility that they would do so. While I’m sure Brandon will revise the prologue quite a bit, I don’t see this as anywhere near a character assassination.

Kalak started the sons of honor. And WoB's say Gavilar was part of multiple secret societies. Aesudan said he was close to discovering how to bond Yelig-nar. And in Rhythm of War we find out he made anti-voidlight. He was shown as both competent and knowledgeable.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

A misunderstanding of a culture he barely understood, and had a small but still significant language barrier. Is not that unusual.

So despite knowing there was a language barrier, that these were unpredictable Voidbringers, that he barely knew anything about their culture, Gavilar still assumed that he knew enough about them to manipulate them into doing exactly what he wanted, and didn’t even consider the possibility that they would betray him? That’s not the actions of a master planner like Taravangian.

Quote

I'm rereading OB at the moment and he spent years learning about the codes, and living with dignity. True he was harsh with Navani but as I said earlier he wasn't perfect.

You mean the years he spent conquering Alethkar? Yes, he eventually started following the codes, but none of his actions were inconsistent with a conquering tyrant. As for his actions with Navani, him being a terrible husband wasn’t all that I was talking about. The number one thing Gavilar cared about was his own legacy. Not the kingdom’s legacy, his legacy.

Quote

Kalak started the sons of honor. And WoB's say Gavilar was part of multiple secret societies. Aesudan said he was close to discovering how to bond Yelig-nar. And in Rhythm of War we find out he made anti-voidlight. He was shown as both competent and knowledgeable.

Aesudan said that he found ancient spren, but could not bind with them. And Gavilar didn’t discover anti-light himself, he had scientists who did.

Try this: ignoring everything about Gavilar that we hear from Dalinar, what image do you see?

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

So despite knowing there was a language barrier, that these were unpredictable Voidbringers, that he barely knew anything about their culture, Gavilar still assumed that he knew enough about them to manipulate them into doing exactly what he wanted, and didn’t even consider the possibility that they would betray him? That’s not the actions of a master planner like Taravangian.

Ignoring the SA 5 prologue it seemed more of a genuine sense that they would want the power again. Abd without the contextual understanding he could only have gotten from living among them that seems a reasonable assumption. 

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

You mean the years he spent conquering Alethkar? Yes, he eventually started following the codes, but none of his actions were inconsistent with a conquering tyrant. As for his actions with Navani, him being a terrible husband wasn’t all that I was talking about. The number one thing Gavilar cared about was his own legacy. Not the kingdom’s legacy, his legacy.

When Dalinar saves him from assassination during a highstorm he asks why they are conquering Alethkar, and goes on about how the kingdom used to mean something. He then tells Dalinar to listen to a book we can assume to be The Way of Kings. He care very deeply about the kingdom. 

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Aesudan said that he found ancient spren, but could not bind with them.

But he was trying to, meaning he knew that they could be bound.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

And Gavilar didn’t discover anti-light himself, he had scientists who did.

Source?

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Try this: ignoring everything about Gavilar that we hear from Dalinar, what image do you see?

Ignoring SA 5 prologue as well?

I see a man willing to look Kelsier on the eye and say "you are too late". I see a man who knows spren can be bound, who has regular meetings with Heralds, who knows the desolations are coming and needs to prepare. In short I see what Dalinar could have been if he were only smarter and more capable.

[NameIess]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Ignoring the SA 5 prologue it seemed more of a genuine sense that they would want the power again. Abd without the contextual understanding he could only have gotten from living among them that seems a reasonable assumption. 

Any competent leader that actually had any real knowledge of the history of desolations (such as through contact with the heralds) would not have such an incredibly stupid and foolhardy assumption and risk as Gavilar did. He barely knew anything about the Parshendi other than their descendance from the Voidbringers, and he immediately reveals his plans to return the Voidbringers? That is phenomenally stupid.

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

When Dalinar saves him from assassination during a highstorm he asks why they are conquering Alethkar, and goes on about how the kingdom used to mean something. He then tells Dalinar to listen to a book we can assume to be The Way of Kings. He care very deeply about the kingdom. 

He cares deeply about his reputation, and his legacy. Perhaps he originally wanted more, but by the time of his assassination, he was all ego. Why else get so angry over Navani's threat to destroy his reputation? His kingdom would live on just fine.

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

But he was trying to, meaning he knew that they could be bound.

He was working for the return of Radiants, but didn't get any Radiants.

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Source?

He's not a scholar? With how much work it took Navani, do you really think Gavilar could have pulled it off on his own? That's probably what all those top fabrial scholars were for, and I assume the Sons of Honor had people working on it.

17 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I see a man willing to look Kelsier on the eye and say "you are too late". I see a man who knows spren can be bound, who has regular meetings with Heralds, who knows the desolations are coming and needs to prepare. In short I see what Dalinar could have been if he were only smarter and more capable.

Well I see a man willing to look Kelsier in the eye and say 'you are too late', who knows spren can be bound, has regular meetings with heralds, is attempting to bring about the desolations in order to gain power for himself, and is ultimately an ego-fueled fool who pretty much screwed the entire world by returning the desolations without refounding the KR or really doing anything at all to adequately prepare the world.

You don't have to like this direction for Gavilar, but it has been adequately foreshadowed. This isn't a complete 360 reversal of his character, it's been coming since as early as Eshonai's prologue in WoR, and Navani's in RoW at latest.

[bmcclure7]

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

I've been waiting for years to see Gavilar's PoV. Ever since book 1 he's been presented as this calculated genius, only a few steps from radiance, with all the tools he needed to fight desolations, who was only stopped by seemingly random chance.

Instead we have this pathetic excuse of a character who doesn't even know half of what we did by book 2. It's rather annoying that he knew just enough that what we saw seemed like a competent individual, and I can't help but feel cheated out of an excellent master planner.

 

Additionally Gavilar in the flashbacks always seemed so considerate, he wasn't an angel or anything but he seemed a reasonable fellow, not that different from Dalinar. A youth of violence followed by a later life of near radiance.

Instead we find out Gavilar is a conniving black-hearted individual only in it for himself. And all of his ideals we're nothing more than virtue signaling. It feels like a character assassination.

 

Needless to say I hope there are some major rewrites before publication.

1. His not pathetic his selfish, but not pathetic. The perfect example of moral selflessness.

2. Actually in some was he knows more then we do now.

3. He still is reasonable and that what leads him to act with honnor. It just that his honnor is only self motivated whereas before we assumed it was for the good of others. 

[Frustration he/him]

15 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

2. Actually in some was he knows more then we do now. 

Like what?

[bmcclure7]

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

Like what?

1. There is a way to ascend and become a Herald.

2.  Is that The Secret of how to become a Herald is within the way of kings. 

3. There is a way to get to damnation from roshar.

 

4.  How to summon void light.

 

5.  Whatever his unspoken plan B was.

 

 Not to mention all the stuff that he knew that we only just found out about in rhythm of war. Like anti light.

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. There is a way to ascend and become a Herald.

2.  Is that The Secret of how to become a Herald is within the way of kings. 

Is there? Or is that what Gavilar assumes? Any time the Stormfather talks about it he hesitates first.

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

3. There is a way to get to damnation from roshar.

We already know that.

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

4.  How to summon void light.

We know that as well.

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

5.  Whatever his unspoken plan B was.

His thoughts don't count. 

22 hours ago, Nameless said:

Any competent leader that actually had any real knowledge of the history of desolations (such as through contact with the heralds) would not have such an incredibly stupid and foolhardy assumption and risk as Gavilar did. He barely knew anything about the Parshendi other than their descendance from the Voidbringers, and he immediately reveals his plans to return the Voidbringers? That is phenomenally stupid.

Stupid only if you know how much they fear them. In any other instance it gains you a willing audience. It seems obvious that they would treat the fused the same way the humans treat the heralds. Even if they had forgotten the fused entirely you can bribe them with power. The only way that it works put poorly for him is if they fear them, but he had no reason to assume that they would. 

22 hours ago, Nameless said:

He was working for the return of Radiants, but didn't get any Radiants.

And? Dalinar's first radiant was Amaram.

22 hours ago, Nameless said:

He's not a scholar? With how much work it took Navani, do you really think Gavilar could have pulled it off on his own? That's probably what all those top fabrial scholars were for, and I assume the Sons of Honor had people working on it.

On his own no. But after careful study under master artifabrians, and with knowledge from heralds, yes I think he could.

22 hours ago, Nameless said:

You don't have to like this direction for Gavilar, but it has been adequately foreshadowed. This isn't a complete 360 reversal of his character, it's been coming since as early as Eshonai's prologue in WoR, and Navani's in RoW at latest.

Not really, everything we have seen up to this point shows him in control, and knowledgeable up to and until Szeth shows up.

[NameIess]

37 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Stupid only if you know how much they fear them. In any other instance it gains you a willing audience. It seems obvious that they would treat the fused the same way the humans treat the heralds. Even if they had forgotten the fused entirely you can bribe them with power. The only way that it works put poorly for him is if they fear them, but he had no reason to assume that they would. 

What if they had wanted to take the power for themselves, or simply hated humans too much to ever work with them? The simple truth is that someone like Taravangian would never have acted as Gavilar did.

39 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And? Dalinar's first radiant was Amaram.

Dalinar didn't have contact with Heralds and worldhoppers, and the full resources of a united Alethkar behind him.

40 minutes ago, Frustration said:

On his own no. But after careful study under master artifabrians, and with knowledge from heralds, yes I think he could.

He might have overseen the tests, but why wouldn't he have just gotten those master artifabrians to do it for him? I think this is the issue we're having. Yes, we could assume that Gavilar did all of this himself, that he was humanity's best hope, and that's what we're led to believe. However, the same evidence that can show he was smart can also show that he was the opposite. Like all well-foreshadowed plot twists, it wasn't obvious, but looking back it is consistent with what we got, even if it wasn't the most obvious conclusion.

[Frustration he/him]

11 minutes ago, Nameless said:

What if they had wanted to take the power for themselves,

Which was exactly what he wanted.

11 minutes ago, Nameless said:

or simply hated humans too much to ever work with them?

Given the fact that they came to Kholinar that wasn't the case.

12 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Dalinar didn't have contact with Heralds and worldhoppers, and the full resources of a united Alethkar behind him.

And no one beaides Shallan had bonded a spren at that point. Unless you want to count Jasnah, who bonded Ivory the day he died.

13 minutes ago, Nameless said:

He might have overseen the tests, but why wouldn't he have just gotten those master artifabrians to do it for him?

Secrecy.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Which was exactly what he wanted.

And if they deided to take these powers by killing him? He was overconfident in the extreme to not even consider the Voidbringers a threat.

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Given the fact that they came to Kholinar that wasn't the case.

Could have been a trick.

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And no one beaides Shallan had bonded a spren at that point. Unless you want to count Jasnah, who bonded Ivory the day he died.

So? A competent person would've known the exact mechanics of the Nahel bond by that point, and at least begun trying to convince spren to bond with humans again.

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Secrecy.

Why invite all the artifabrians then?

[Frustration he/him]

4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

And if they deided to take these powers by killing him? He was overconfident in the extreme to not even consider the Voidbringers a threat.

They were all locked on Braize at the time.

4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Could have been a trick.

Even if it was it wouldn't have mattered. Without surgebinding there was no way they could kill him.

4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

So? A competent person would've known the exact mechanics of the Nahel bond by that point, and at least begun trying to convince spren to bond with humans again.

How would he have spoken to one? The aside from The Stormfather the only one he could talk to was the Nightwatcher.

4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Why invite all the artifabrians then?

To learn.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Frustration

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

They were all locked on Braize at the time.

He knew that Parshendi were Voidbringers. And he didn't consider them a threat.

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Even if it was it wouldn't have mattered. Without surgebinding there was no way they could kill him.

And he knew they didn't have surgebinding how? Or some other powers that they gained from forms?
 

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

How would he have spoken to one? The only one aside from The Stormfather the only one he could talk to was the Nightwatcher.

Heralds?

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

To learn.

Then why did he talk about 'reports' from the latest tests? Why wasn't he doing them himself?

[Frustration he/him]

9 minutes ago, Nameless said:

He knew that Parshendi were Voidbringers. And he didn't consider them a threat.

Without the Fused they aren't. 

9 minutes ago, Nameless said:

And he knew they didn't have surgebinding how? Or some other powers that they gained from forms?

Heralds.

9 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Heralds?

How would that help.

10 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Then why did he talk about 'reports' from the latest tests? Why wasn't he doing them himself?

He is a king, he doesn't have unlimited time, he can design tests and have others carry them out.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

Without the Fused they aren't. 

Why not? They still could've had access to any number of forms.

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Heralds.

The Heralds would have told him that they could still be dangerous. Even non-surgebinders can kill people.

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

How would that help.

Kalak travelled between realms to get to the Lasting Integrity, so they obviously knew about perpendicularities. And he managed to get Voidlight to Roshar.

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

He is a king, he doesn't have unlimited time, he can design tests and have others carry them out.

So why would he bother spending the hundreds or thousands of hours it would take to discover anti-investiture when he obviously has trusted scientists to do it for him?

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, Nameless said:

Why not? They still could've had access to any number of forms.

What form that they had access to would have been any threat to him?

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

The Heralds would have told him that they could still be dangerous. Even non-surgebinders can kill people.

So can humans.

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

Kalak travelled between realms to get to the Lasting Integrity, so they obviously knew about perpendicularities. And he managed to get Voidlight to Roshar.

The only available perpendicularity is in the horneater peaks, far from any spren cities. It would take months to send messangers back and forth. And as evidenced by how little voidlight he had he didn't have people do it often.

4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

So why would he bother spending the hundreds or thousands of hours it would take to discover anti-investiture when he obviously has trusted scientists to do it for him?

Scientists or asistants? And there are WoB's saying he was in contact with multiple secret societies, he had access to knowledge Navani didn't.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

What form that they had access to would have been any threat to him?

He didn't know what forms they had access to.

Just now, Frustration said:

So can humans.

Yeah, but he knew plenty about his human enemies.

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

The only available perpendicularity is in the horneater peaks, far from any spren cities. It would take months to send messangers back and forth. And as evidenced by how little voidlight he had he didn't have people do it often.

He could still send messengers and ambassadors.

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Scientists or asistants? And there are WoB's saying he was in contact with multiple secret societies, he had access to knowledge Navani didn't.

Yeah, but he still wasn't a scholar. His scientists could do the stuff, I don't ever get the impression that he was head researcher.

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

He didn't know what forms they had access to.

He knew they didn't have forms of power.

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

He could still send messengers and ambassadors.

And we knew he didn't?

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Yeah, but he still wasn't a scholar. His scientists could do the stuff, I don't ever get the impression that he was head researcher.

From the way he spoke with Navani it gave the impression that he qas very deeply involved. 

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

He knew they didn't have forms of power.

And only forms of power are dangerous?

Just now, Frustration said:

And we knew he didn't?

He had no Radiants after years, and we never heard anything about humans asking for bonds.

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

From the way he spoke with Navani it gave the impression that he qas very deeply involved. 

Deeply involved does not mean he was the lead researcher in the discovery. 

[Frustration he/him]

5 minutes ago, Nameless said:

And only forms of power are dangerous?

The only ones more dangerous than humans are.

5 minutes ago, Nameless said:

He had no Radiants after years, and we never heard anything about humans asking for bonds.

And? How many shadesmar cities have we seen? And in how many of those does bonding come up? The only one is Lasting Integrity,  an isolated city far from the peaks.

5 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Deeply involved does not mean he was the lead researcher in the discovery. 

In RoW he said "I have found..." not we, but I.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Frustration

[KaladinWorldsinger]

@Frustration I get your disappointment, i was disappointed too since I really wanted a genius planner gavilar and some huge info reveal. But don't lose hope yet, Brandon has skirted around how exactly gav got his anti voidlight and i think that was completely intentional.

But, unfortunately, i don't think there is going to be any major rewrites because this was definitely planned since day one. Gavilar was always going to be revealed as all fluff, no substance.

In wok, we have a small hint when navani says something like 'i was faithful(to gav) even though I had good reason not to be'.

But the main reasons I say this is because of Dalinar's character arc. taravangian, sadeas and gav are meant to be character foils to dalinar. The main theme of these characters being glory.

We learn that alethela used to be looked very favorably in the past. Urithiru was going to be placed there, Nohadon is from there, windrunners have a special connection to alethela and windrunners are closest to honor in a way. They were the noble warriors, watchers at the time. But after 4000 years, honor has become synonymous with glory.

Alethi chase glory instead of Honor. They are all about appearances instead of actual character. This is why sadeas seems so ready to give opinions on fashion in the books. This is why Dalinar's first book journey was about people believing him mad and senile. For alethi it is always about fame, legacy, appearances and glory.

For taravangian, there was an entire thread that detailed how his primary motivating factor was proving the people who doubted his capacity wrong. There points come to mind. 1) the fact he was looked down upon because he was born with a cord around his neck 2) that he didn't understand why he felt sad when he realised no one would come to his funeral 3) that even though he says he would love to be proven wrong, he contradicts himself in the same convo by calling it a pain.

Quote

“No, Taravangian,” Dalinar said. “You have lived your convictions, however misguided they may be. Now I’m going to live mine. And at the end, when I face Odium and win, you will be there. I’ll give you this gift.”

“The pain of knowing I was wrong?”

“You told me earlier that you wished to be proven wrong. If you’re sincere — and this was never about being right or about gaining power—then on that day we can embrace, knowing it is all over. Old friend.

Quote

Free to destroy! To burn! To wreak havoc and terror upon those who had doubted him!

It is not a coincidence that Dalinar's is constantly associated with gloryspren.

Tara and gav are foils to dalinar. In the ob flashback, where gav says that the kingdom used to mean something, he is thinking about his upcoming legacy not morality. 

Dalinar isn't fame obsessed, but he does like being the leader a bit too much and has difficulty decentralising power. It took him the whole of ROW to realise democracy was a good idea. He will prolly find out what kind of a person his bro gav was, and that will be very imp to his character arc in book 5. He will finally trust other people with power and let go.

Tldr: Gav was always going to be big talk.

[bmcclure7]

19 hours ago, Frustration said:

Is there? Or is that what Gavilar assumes? Any time the Stormfather talks about it he hesitates first.

We already know that.

We know that as well.

His thoughts don't count. 

Stupid only if you know how much they fear them. In any other instance it gains you a willing audience. It seems obvious that they would treat the fused the same way the humans treat the heralds. Even if they had forgotten the fused entirely you can bribe them with power. The only way that it works put poorly for him is if they fear them, but he had no reason to assume that they would. 

And? Dalinar's first radiant was Amaram.

On his own no. But after careful study under master artifabrians, and with knowledge from heralds, yes I think he could.

Not really, everything we have seen up to this point shows him in control, and knowledgeable up to and until Szeth shows up.

2.  Are characters don't. 

 

3.  No we don't know how to sumone void light.

4. Why wouldn't his thoughts count?

 

[Frustration he/him]

20 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

2.  Are characters don't. 

Doesn't matter, we do.

20 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

3.  No we don't know how to sumone void light.

Yes, walk to braize and grab some.

21 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

4. Why wouldn't his thoughts count?

Because every character has thoughts we can't see, doesn't make them smart.