The Set as agents of Odium?

[Nesh he/him]

1 hour ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

But the red eyes are the least powerful argument, not the most! We have WOBs confirming the presence of Odium on Scadrial, Odium refocusing on the wider cosmere, and lightweaving not being a thing in the entire trilogy of books that focus on Taladin! Occam's Razor would suggest that Autonomy hasn't found a fourth planet with lightweaving. Paalm (there's no second capital) can be seen as influenced by Odium (irrational hatred), and possession is more of Odium's forte than Autonomy. Heck, Autonomy's Intent would go against possessing Paalm. Oh yeah, and there are five separate references to red and gold. Guess what? That's Odium's color scheme. Supporting Autonomy is a random guy named Trell. The letters... would suggest Odium, not Autonomy, as Hoid sees Odium as a bigger threat. And the Taladin essay states nothing that we didn't already know - Autonomy has been interfering in other worlds and splintering shards since time imemorial.

TL;DR is that there's a huge amount of evidence that you're discounting for Odium being Trell, while a lot of the evidence for Autonomy looks kinda weak.

That said, this proves nothing. Autonomy is fair game.

Odium's just a more likely candidate.

We know that Autonomy creates Avatars on different planets, and those planets can have different magic than Taldain (See six of the Dust), so Lightweaving is not out of the question, especially since we know she has an Avatar on one other planet that we know nothing about (Obrodai).  Paalm wasn't possesed though, she had control over her actions, her entire thing was about freeing people from control.  Not about hatred.  She chose to die rather than being controlled.  The Letters would not  suggest Odium, because Sazed doesn't know who is encroaching on his planet, and he knows of Odium.  And before you say he wouldn't know Odium's Investiture he clearly went poking around the Cosmere as evidenced by him noting the spiritual wound in the Thenodite system.  You think he wouldn't find some way to get real tangible information on the threat Hoid is calling to his attention? (How's that for an Occum's Razor?)

 

Men of Gold and Red sure, I can give you that one except for that part in the preview chapters wherew it is said you will be destroyed in ash or by the man of Red and Gold; which could imply that they are separate threats.  Oh, also the mention of Avatars, which so far is an Autonomy thing.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Nesh

[Frustration]

14 hours ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

I think that the in-canon stuff supports Odium as Trell while the meta stuff supports Autonomy.

How about the meta "only huge fans know about Autonomy at all?'

2 hours ago, Nesh said:

Brandon has been setting up Autonomy as a potential big player as of late.

How?

2 hours ago, Nesh said:

See, I don't think the canon really supports Odium.  The big argument is red eyes.  It's not a particularly strong argument, where things like the Letters, the Taldain essay, and PaAlm hint more toward Autonomy, all of which are canon.

None of those hint at Autonomy on Scadrial.

A possessed host, red and gold, promises of immortality, WoB's of Odium's influence on Scadrial as well as his plans to deal with Harmony, corrupted Investiture, etc all point towards trell being his.

1 hour ago, Nesh said:

We know that Autonomy creates Avatars on different planets, and those planets can have different magic than Taldain (See six of the Dust), so Lightweaving is not out of the question, especially since we know she has an Avatar on one other planet that we know nothing about (Obrodai).  Paalm wasn't possesed though, she had control over her actions, her entire thing was about freeing people from control.  Not about hatred.  She chose to die rather than being controlled.  The Letters would not  suggest Odium, because Sazed doesn't know who is encroaching on his planet, and he knows of Odium.  And before you say he wouldn't know Odium's Investiture he clearly went poking around the Cosmere as evidenced by him noting the spiritual wound in the Thenodite system.  You think he wouldn't find some way to get real tangible information on the threat Hoid is calling to his attention? (How's that for an Occum's Razor?)

 

Men of Gold and Red sure, I can give you that one except for that part in the preview chapters wherew it is said you will be destroyed in ash or by the man of Red and Gold; which could imply that they are separate threats.  Oh, also the mention of Avatars, which so far is an Autonomy thing.

1. Trell is clearly a corrupted entity, so even if somehow, someway Sazed managed to get a complete and total understanding of Odium's Investiture(which I doubt) it wouldn't help.

2. Outside of WoB every mention of Avatars comes from SA. And RoW specifically mentioned it in relationship with Odium. And besides that ANY shard can make an Avatar.

[drunkenbotanist]

Odium is white and gold right? And also purple?

 

Red being relevant to odium is very specific and limited.

 

we also have a paragraph of info on Trell from era 1 that hasn't been brought up here as far as I can tell.

[offer]

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

2. Outside of WoB every mention of Avatars comes from SA. And RoW specifically mentioned it in relationship with Odium. And besides that ANY shard can make an Avatar.

In RoW avatars are mentioned as a thing Odium (or at least Rayse) does not do. It is possible that Taravangian will have a diverent opinion but Trell probably started working on Scadrian before Taravangian`s ascension.

[NerdyAarakocra They/Them]

7 hours ago, drunkenbotanist said:

Odium is white and gold right? And also purple?

 

Red being relevant to odium is very specific and limited.

 

we also have a paragraph of info on Trell from era 1 that hasn't been brought up here as far as I can tell.

No, Odium is red and gold.

A big argument here is weather red refers to corrupted Investiture or the red and gold color scheme of Odium.

Welcome to fan theories, where a war can be waged over something that small.

[StanLemon]

52 minutes ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

No, Odium is red and gold.

When Odium (Rayse specifically) manifested in physical form he has a white and gold color scheme 

[NerdyAarakocra They/Them]

17 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

When Odium (Rayse specifically) manifested in physical form he has a white and gold color scheme 

WOBs (as well as Spiritual Realm appearences of Odium) have confirmed that he uses a red and gold color scheme.

[StanLemon]

When Dalinar saw his Spiritual aspect it was described as a violet fire

[drunkenbotanist]

3 hours ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

No, Odium is red and gold.

A big argument here is weather red refers to corrupted Investiture or the red and gold color scheme of Odium.

Welcome to fan theories, where a war can be waged over something that small.

Spoiler

 

Questioner

So, we know in Mistborn there is this running... you can say, motif about Ruin being associated with the color black and Preservation with the color white, we see a lot of very subtle and a lot of very unsubtle...

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yes.

Questioner

Is such a motif present in any other books? I think I see it in Stormlight.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, in Stormlight you can see it. So, Ruin is a red-gold... not Ruin, Odium. Odium is a red-gold. Honor is a blue-white and Cultivation is green, obviously. So, those motifs stay, when you... when you see a red or a gold, it's a reddish gold sort of thing, either of those colors, it's going to be Odium.

Questioner

Even when we something we might suspect to be outside influence in other worlds?

Brandon Sanderson

Not necessarily, because red can also mean corrupted Investiture in the Cosmere. So, I would call Odium's real color gold, because you're going to see red when Odium is corrupting other things, so...

Questioner

It's not necessarily on Roshar.

Brandon Sanderson

It's not necessarily Odium. So, you're asking for the invading force on Mistborn, it doesn't necessarily mean Odium because it's red. So red just kind of means corruption. I've talked about that before, so. Not necessarily, not definitive, yeah.

Footnote: When Sanderson said "you're asking about the invading force on Mistborn", the questioner made a guilty "caught red-handed" shrug.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/395/#e13074

 

 

 

Word of Brandon about odium being gold, with red being instances of corrupted power for any shard, and odium does a lot of corrupting on Roshar. And when Odium shows up he's always white and gold, and his investiture is colored purple.

 

Just pointing out that anything that isn't solely gold is a dubious indicator of Odium 

 

Like I get that this isn't enough to say "therefore it's CLEARLY not odium" especially because of odium is involved he's absolutely doing corrupting

 

But also we'll know in 24 hours

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by drunkenbotanist

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

11 minutes ago, drunkenbotanist said:

But also we'll know in 24 hours

Lol for real though- definitely clearing my schedule and burning through this one nonstop haha

[+robardin he/him]

Trell = Autonomy

And just why is she so hot after controlling (or destroying) Scadrial, but not because of Harmony (not after Splintering Harmony, but to supplant him in control of Scadrial)?!

[teknopathetic he/him]

3 hours ago, robardin said:

Trell = Autonomy

And just why is she so hot after controlling (or destroying) Scadrial, but not because of Harmony (not after Splintering Harmony, but to supplant him in control of Scadrial)?!

I know right? She would let Sazed leave the planet but doesn't demand his shards or powers? Maybe Scadrial is too close to Taldain? 

[+robardin he/him]

11 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

I know right? She would let Sazed leave the planet but doesn't demand his shards or powers? Maybe Scadrial is too close to Taldain? 

Plus, as I mentioned in a couple of other threads about TLM Ch 19, .... how is that even possible, when Harmony is Invested in every person, stone, and drop of water on Scadrial? It was literally created out of nothing by the combined power of Preservation and Ruin, which is now united in Harmony?

I guess she wants Scadrial to still exist, with its Metallic Arts fueled by the Shardic powers of Harmony, but for Harmony himself to get lost and leave the use of it to her Avatar and her henchmen? The Shardic equivalent of putting Baby (Harmony) in the corner? That, or no sentient life on Scadrial at all (no Metalborn)?

Edited November 14, 2022 by robardin

[StormingTexan he/him]

10 minutes ago, robardin said:

Plus, as I mentioned in a couple of other threads about TLM Ch 19, .... how is that even possible, when Harmony is Invested in every person, stone, and drop of water on Scadrial? It was literally created out of nothing by the combined power of Preservation and Ruin, which is now united in Harmony?

I guess she wants Scadrial to still exist, with its Metallic Arts fueled by the Shardic powers of Harmony, but for Harmony himself to get lost and leave the use of it to her Avatar and her henchmen? The Shardic equivalent of putting Baby (Harmony) in the corner? That, or no sentient life on Scadrial at all (no Metalborn)?

I think unfortunately we are not going to get to see Trell/Autonamy's motivation and true plan in this book. I think this plot line is what Chaos is referring to in this comment on his spoiler free review. Will be MB Era3 before we really find out. 

Quote

There's one more plotline that has effectively a dead-end for this book that feels like pure setup for Mistborn Era 3, which I really didn't like. I think you could argue that this book is disappointing because it doesn't deal with a few big aspects from prior Era 2 books, presumably to save them for Era 3. This book does deal with the biggest plot thread of the Era 2 series, which is good, but just brace your expectations.

 

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

I know right? She would let Sazed leave the planet but doesn't demand his shards or powers? Maybe Scadrial is too close to Taldain? 

Roshar is closer.

[StormingTexan he/him]

37 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Roshar is closer.

All three are actually pretty close. Hard to say Roshar is closer actually from the star map. 

[Stigmadiabolicum]

Haha as i said, the mention of avatar last week pretty much outright confirmed it, and now we know for sure. 

But i do agree, the "invasion from other planets" could still be odium and Roshar, men of red and gold. 

Autonomy could be softening the planet up so either they or odium could take out poor harmony. 

I also concur that we won't fully find out autonomys motivations in the book, they'll foil this plan, but definitely going to be setting up the stage for era 3 and post 5 stormlight. 

[+Child of Hodor]

On 11/14/2022 at 9:05 AM, StanLemon said:

When Dalinar saw his Spiritual aspect it was described as a violet fire

I think this is Odium's truest color. It's the color of the raw investiture used as fuel by the Fused and as you say it's what the core of the Shard looks like in the spiritual realm from what Dalinar saw. 

Rayse seems to have liked gold and white.

He gave himself a gold crown and scepter with white robes often, when he appeared as a Singer on Thaylen Field in OB he had gold skin with white marbling. When Odium summons the Thrill to the physical realm a stream of golden power was seen behind him by Venli. The Voidspren that led the Hearthstone Singers Kaladin was captured by in OB appeared as a golden human. The Raysium knife Vyre was given was gold and white.  Rayse summons Taravangian to a golden room in OB. 

When Rayse invades a vision the sky cracks open and a blinding golden light is shining through. After Rayse destroys and recreates the Vision and is talking to Dalinar he makes a golden chair for himself to sit on. 

My conclusion is when Rayse intentionally makes something with his investiture he makes them golden or white gold because he thinks himself king of the cosmere and wants to project a regal bearing. Or he may just like the color.